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Paulus
2009-10-31, 04:17 PM
Just wondering what the play-grounders idea of the best arcane Gish is in core only setting. As far as I know the Eldritch Knight was put in just for people who wanted to play such a thing. But comparative to Cleric, Druid, and even Paladin... seems divine got the best of the of the arcane fighter mage. Which makes me wonder why, so feel free to comment on that too. But really what interests me is what the established Core only arcane gishes are. Since Core has been around so long, what was the earliest most successful arcane gish and so forth? Also, Happy Halloween!

Gnaeus
2009-10-31, 04:40 PM
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18
Fighter 1/Wizard 9/Eldrich Knight 10

weenie
2009-10-31, 04:48 PM
Don't foreget about Paladin 2/Sorcerer 8/Eldritch Knight 10!

In core there really aren't that many options for arcane gishes. They are still playable, but it gets much more fun out of core.

dspeyer
2009-10-31, 05:04 PM
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18
Fighter 1/Wizard 9/Eldrich Knight 10

Would you really want to get into melee with either of those? With BABs of 11 and 15 respectively, no armor, and not much synergy?

I would suggest Bard 8 / Paladin 2 / Eldritch Knight 10. It's BAB 18 with light armor. It's only 6th level spells, but bards treat Irresistable Dance and Mass Charm Monster as 6th level, so it's more like 8th level spells. You get decent skills, too, which is handy when you're honor-bound to investigate someone before smiting them.

If you don't like PRCing, straight bard 20 is moderately gishy.

Paulus
2009-10-31, 05:24 PM
Huh, not much in the way of melee are they? Almost all of them mentioned have a dip in paladin, not for divine I know. But what makes Sorcadin so good comparatively? say to a Fight/wizard/eldritch knight?

Totally Guy
2009-10-31, 05:26 PM
What about a Prestige Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeBard)? Would that be viable? What's the best way to meet those prerequisites?

Paulus
2009-10-31, 05:33 PM
What about a Prestige Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeBard)? Would that be viable? What's the best way to meet those prerequisites?

that's core?!

Starscream
2009-10-31, 05:38 PM
that's core?!

Well, core as in "first three books", no. Core as in "available for free in the SRD so no reason for anyone to not have access to it", yes.

Kylarra
2009-10-31, 05:39 PM
that's core?!Technically it's UA, but since it's free in SRD, it gets confused.

Eldariel
2009-10-31, 05:42 PM
Honestly, Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight -> is the best you can do in Core. Sorcadin is really hit by the fact that it'll never get level 9 spells, though getting Cha to all saves is really good, of course.

Arcane gishes overall lack a ton in Core simply because many of the better Gish spells aren't in print yet nor is there any kind of Arcane Channeling available. Still, they beat pure melee for breakfast a bit into the game ('cause they can cast spells) so there's something going on for them. And simple stuff like Quickened True Strike + Power Attack is still efficient (preferably as a Spirited Charge), as is obviously the Polymorph-line and Greater Heroisms and all that.


Actually, the biggest reason to go Wizard over Sorcerer in Core is that Sorcs can't quicken spells (not even with Metamagic Rod, as ridiculous as that sounds). This is a crippling weakness particularly for a Gish and as such, Wizard is just a 1000 times better without Rapid Metamagic in the picture.

Gishes generally boost their attacks with the swift action and attack with the full-round; being unable to cast spells as swift actions kills that plan entirely.

Paulus
2009-10-31, 06:08 PM
Huh.... I guess you really can't go Melee gish in core very well. But then compared to most melee, nothing can go melee in core very well huh? Er... except for Druid, Cleric, and Paladin and uh.. Ranger. Too bad there isn't a type of Arcane Paladin or ranger... Except for the Bard. Not very Gishy though is he?

Kylarra
2009-10-31, 06:11 PM
Huh.... I guess you really can't go Melee gish in core very well. But then compared to most melee, nothing can go melee in core very well huh? Er... except for Druid, Cleric, and Paladin and uh.. Ranger. Too bad there isn't a type of Arcane Paladin or ranger... Except for the Bard. Not very Gishy though is he?Mystic Ranger, but that's Dragon and not core... :smalltongue:

Gnaeus
2009-10-31, 06:41 PM
Honestly, Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight -> is the best you can do in Core. Sorcadin is really hit by the fact that it'll never get level 9 spells, though getting Cha to all saves is really good, of course.



Sorc18/Paladin 2 gets 9th level spells, you just can't do it and still get eldrich knight.

Gnaeus
2009-10-31, 06:46 PM
Would you really want to get into melee with either of those? With BABs of 11 and 15 respectively, no armor, and not much synergy?

I would suggest Bard 8 / Paladin 2 / Eldritch Knight 10. It's BAB 18 with light armor. It's only 6th level spells, but bards treat Irresistable Dance and Mass Charm Monster as 6th level, so it's more like 8th level spells. You get decent skills, too, which is handy when you're honor-bound to investigate someone before smiting them.

If you don't like PRCing, straight bard 20 is moderately gishy.

I'd rather melee with either of those than with Bard 8/Paladin 2. Light armor doesn't give any better armor than Mage Armor + Polymorph, and bards get few properly gishy spells. If you don't get at least 8th level spells, it isn't much of a gish build, and it would take a lot more than light armor proficiency to get me to drop Shapechange for my gish.

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-31, 08:27 PM
I know it's a tad off-topic (maybe), but if you're talking OGL SRD only, the best non-divine gish available is the psychic warrior, I think.

Assuming you're not going cleric or druid (but they're divine)...

Then again, a summoner/buffer wizard/PrC is pretty damned powerful in its own right, and can fill in the role of meat-shield handily.

jokey665
2009-10-31, 08:34 PM
I know it's a tad off-topic (maybe), but if you're talking OGL SRD only, the best non-divine gish available is the psychic warrior, I think.

Psion/Slayer is probably better than Psychic Warrior...

dspeyer
2009-10-31, 09:43 PM
What about a Prestige Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeBard)? Would that be viable? What's the best way to meet those prerequisites?

It's less useful than one might think. It has 4 non-casting levels, including 1st and 3rd (so you can't easily take a bit and get out). It also requires 8 ranks in perform, which means you pretty much need it as a class skill. In core, that means rogue, monk or loremaster.

You could do wizard 7 / loremaster 1 / prestige bard 12 for 17th level casting and a bab of 13. It gets light armor, decent weapons and some bard powers. Still not great for melee.

Superglucose
2009-10-31, 09:53 PM
Would you really want to get into melee with either of those? With BABs of 11 and 15 respectively, no armor, and not much synergy?

I would suggest Bard 8 / Paladin 2 / Eldritch Knight 10. It's BAB 18 with light armor. It's only 6th level spells, but bards treat Irresistable Dance and Mass Charm Monster as 6th level, so it's more like 8th level spells. You get decent skills, too, which is handy when you're honor-bound to investigate someone before smiting them.

How are you doing bard and paladin?

dspeyer
2009-10-31, 10:15 PM
How are you doing bard and paladin?

Become lawful at 9th level. Retain all bardic abilities.

It's not unreasonable if you start NG with some lawful tendencies.

olentu
2009-10-31, 10:16 PM
How are you doing bard and paladin?

As I recall a bard that becomes lawful keeps their abilities but can no longer progress in the bard class.

dspeyer
2009-10-31, 10:39 PM
We're leaving out the monstrous gishes.

A Couatl Loremaster 4 casts as a 13th level sorcerer with a BAB of 11, but makes up for it with +6 to most stats, large size, flight, natural armor, and some nice spell-like abilities. A Rakshasha can produce a similar build.

A Drider Ranger 1 / Eldritch Knight 9 casts as a 14th level sorcerer with a BAB of 14, and has pretty good stats and a few abilities.

Dragons, those iconic gish monsters, do not do well here. The best is the young brass, who gets 1st level casting at ecl 14. Not really viable.

Eldariel
2009-11-01, 03:55 AM
Sorc18/Paladin 2 gets 9th level spells, you just can't do it and still get eldrich knight.

That's not a Gish though; BAB 11, 18d4 HP, no bonus feats, etc. sees to it that you can do nothing.

oxinabox
2009-11-01, 05:10 AM
As I recall a bard that becomes lawful keeps their abilities but can no longer progress in the bard class.

he's not progressing as a bard, after that he progresses as an eldrich knight.
I don't know if that's legal.
I wouldn't be surpirsed if it is.

Gnaeus
2009-11-01, 08:03 AM
That's not a Gish though; BAB 11, 18d4 HP, no bonus feats, etc. sees to it that you can do nothing.

Then there are no true core gishes. The gish definition that I commonly hear requires 16 BaB AND 9th level casting, and you need splatbooks to get there. You can still quickened polymorph or shapechange into a combat form and beat on things.

Eldariel
2009-11-01, 08:12 AM
Then there are no true core gishes. The gish definition that I commonly hear requires 16 BaB AND 9th level casting, and you need splatbooks to get there. You can still quickened polymorph or shapechange into a combat form and beat on things.

Fighter (or any full BAB) 2/Wizard 8 (or Wizard 6/PrC 2; Loremaster or Archmage is a good addition)/Eldritch Knight 10 has both. That said, I still prefer the extra level of casting to the extra point of BAB; 15 BAB and 18 CL is plenty good. The definition of Gish is simply "Fighter/Mage" and it predates 3.5 multiclassing so it's impossible to really determine what does it require to be a Gish. To be a good Gish though, high BAB, combat feats & good casting are nice.

Your build isn't much of a Fighter though; he's just a Sorcerer who happens to have been blessed by a deity with extremely potent magical protection. Sure, you can prepare spells and pick feats as if you were a Fighter, but then you're just a Sorcerer pretending to be something else. It'd qualify as a Gish, I suppose, but a bad one. And no, he can't Quicken anything.


Sorcs don't Quicken things in Core, which is why they suck as a Gish-base in Core. A Gish really relies on Quickening stuff so I don't see a single reason to start with Sorcerer-base for a Gish. Add to that the extra level of casting Sorcs are behind and I really can't see why you'd base your Gishes on Sorc in Core.

Saph
2009-11-01, 08:35 AM
I'm not sure where the "Quickening things is essential for a Gish" idea comes from. The +4 spell level adjustment from Quicken Spell is outrageously high for a gish, who won't have as many spell levels as a full caster in the first place.

The best strategy for a gish in my experience is to make full use of all those nice arcane buff spells - you know, Shield, Mirror Image, Blink, Fire Shield, the ones which can make you incredibly tough but which are all too often pointless because as a full caster you're standing at the back of the party and aren't getting attacked anyway. My gish builds generally don't cast attack spells, they buff themselves up to near-invulnerability and then rely on melee attacks for offence.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-01, 08:59 AM
Paradoxically, a barbarian/wizard/eldritch knight can work out pretty well.

An important point of being a Gish is to keep your BAB up to par, so taking five levels of wizard is better, in that aspect, than six levels of sorcerer.

(edit) if we allow everything on d20srd as "core", then there's a wizard substitute that gives you two fighter feats, rather than scribe scroll and a wizard feat.

Eldariel
2009-11-01, 10:37 AM
I'm not sure where the "Quickening things is essential for a Gish" idea comes from. The +4 spell level adjustment from Quicken Spell is outrageously high for a gish, who won't have as many spell levels as a full caster in the first place.

The best strategy for a gish in my experience is to make full use of all those nice arcane buff spells - you know, Shield, Mirror Image, Blink, Fire Shield, the ones which can make you incredibly tough but which are all too often pointless because as a full caster you're standing at the back of the party and aren't getting attacked anyway. My gish builds generally don't cast attack spells, they buff themselves up to near-invulnerability and then rely on melee attacks for offence.

Many of the good spells, such as the ones you listed, are very low level. Lesser Rod of Quicken and Quicken Spell come available in the mid-levels and make using those buffs in combat infinitely more economical (and later on, 4-6 and just pre-epic, even 7-9 spells). Sorcerers cannot Quicken spells even through Rods.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-01, 10:55 AM
Is there an arcane version of the Linked Power feat? I find that feat invaluable for manifesters that have to buff as part of their battle-routine, since it lets you Link buff powers with a swift (or immediate) action power (such as grip of iron), and getting two buffs for the action cost of one.

Eldariel
2009-11-01, 11:03 AM
Is there an arcane version of the Linked Power feat? I find that feat invaluable for manifesters that have to buff as part of their battle-routine, since it lets you Link buff powers with a swift (or immediate) action power (such as grip if iron), and getting two buffs for the action cost of one.

Nope. That's one of the biggest things Psionic Gishes have going on for them vs. Vancian Gishes of one kind or another (though of course, Vancians get Persistent Spell and the associated "cheats" to make it cheap to more than make up for that, but unlike Linked Power, that is quite abusive).

Sharkman1231
2009-11-01, 11:05 AM
... Sorcerers cannot Quicken spells even through Rods.

Where is this rule?:smallconfused:
This would make big changes to my campaigns:smalleek:

tyckspoon
2009-11-01, 11:13 AM
Reference for rods working the same way normal metamagics do is in the Magic Item listing for Metamagic Rods-

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses.

Sorcerers taking extra time to metamagic stuff is in the general information for Metamagic feats-

...Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spellís normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isnít the same as a 1-round casting time.)

And finally, Quicken Spell itself specifically is incompatible with spontaneous casting-

Special

This feat canít be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.

The rod allows you to act as if you were using the appropriate metamagic feat, Quicken Spell the feat doesn't work on spontaneous spells, ergo Metamagic Rods of Quicken do not work on spontaneous spells.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-01, 11:15 AM
Probably ninja'd, but...

SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spontaneousMetamagic.htm):
"Characters who donít prepare spells in advance (such as bards and sorcerers) have a distinct advantage in that they can choose to use their metamagic feats ďon the flyĒ; that is, at the time of casting. The cost is an extended casting time (making Quicken Spell a useless option for such characters), but this cost is rarely balanced with that paid by other spellcasters."

And (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicQuicken):
"The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are quickened as though using the Quicken Spell feat."

Since sorcerers can't use the Quicken Spell feat in the first place...

They'd have to take Rapid Metamagic or something similar to allow them to use it before using rods would kick in.

[edit] Yup. Ninja'd.

ericgrau
2009-11-01, 11:31 AM
Wizard 1 / martial class X. Hands down.

Use wands or staffs (!) of any level without any arcane spell failure chance from armor. True strike and featherfall (both level 1 spells) likewise have no somatic component so no arcane spell failure. Scrolls above level 1 OTOH require an easy caster level check and have an arcane spell failure chance. Still might be okay for utility stuff if you get the cheaper scrolls. At high levels you can get a metamagic rod of lesser quicken for your true strike. But the wand and staff use is the real kicker. There are plenty of good low and high level spells, and 50 charges lasts a long long time so "wasted" gold is minimal.

Wear armor, fight well, cast a limited number of excellent spells. This is what a gish ought to be.

Saph
2009-11-01, 01:32 PM
Many of the good spells, such as the ones you listed, are very low level. Lesser Rod of Quicken and Quicken Spell come available in the mid-levels and make using those buffs in combat infinitely more economical (and later on, 4-6 and just pre-epic, even 7-9 spells). Sorcerers cannot Quicken spells even through Rods.

Even the cheapest Rod of Quicken costs 35,000 gold. The absolute earliest you can get something as pricey as that is level 12, and level 14 is more likely. Most campaigns will have ended by then, so I don't think it's a big deal unless you're starting at an unusually high level.

Zovc
2009-11-01, 01:42 PM
An important point of being a Gish is to keep your BAB up to par, so taking five levels of wizard is better, in that aspect, than six levels of sorcerer.

You do realize that Sorcerer 6 effectively increases your BAB as much as Fighter 1 does, right? The same goes for Wizards, your BAB improves from +2 to +3 at level 6 in any class with a "poor" base attack bonus.

So, your Sorcerer gets his 3rd level spells at 6, or your wizard gets more spells at level 6, then you go on being a Gish with level-3 BAB (or level-4 if you take two more levels in your casting class). That's the way I see it.

I would say that Intelligence is more important to our Gish if we're not taking two levels in Paladin. Intelligence gives you more skill points, where as Charisma does nothing else.

Zovc
2009-11-01, 02:01 PM
It looks like the best you can do is:

Wizard 5/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10. From here, depending on what you want you have options.
5d4+1d10+10d6 + (15ConM) HP, +13 BAB at level 15.

One more level of Wizard gets you +1 BAB and +1 level of Wizard casting.
One more level of Fighter gets you +1 BAB and a bonus feat.
If you can take Prestige Bard, four levels gets you +3 BAB and +2 Wizard Casting, plus some bard abilities.
The fifth level of Prestige Bard gets you another level of wizard casting and Inspire Courage +2. It won't give you another BAB, but it will give you a d6 instead of a d4 for your HP.

If you can use Prestige Bard, this may be the best you can do:
Sorcerer 6/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10/Prestige Bard 2.
6d4 + 1d10 + 12d6 + (20ConM) HP, +15 BAB at level 19;
6 + 0 + 9 + 1 Casting progression, 16th level sorcerer casting.

Your last level could be...
Fighter 2, getting you another bonus feat and +1 BAB.
Sorcerer 7, getting you 17th level Sorcerer casting.
Prestige Bard 3, getting you +1 BAB and Inspire Competence.

You can't do Paladin with Prestige Bard because you'll lose your paladin abilities when you become nonlawful.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-01, 02:03 PM
Wouldn't it be better to take your first level as a Fighter?

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-01, 02:07 PM
Wouldn't it be better to take your first level as a Fighter?

And the increased benefit of starting as a fighter rather than as a wizard?

P.s. If it sound. err read as offensive or rude, it is not intentional

Eldariel
2009-11-01, 02:08 PM
Even the cheapest Rod of Quicken costs 35,000 gold. The absolute earliest you can get something as pricey as that is level 12, and level 14 is more likely. Most campaigns will have ended by then, so I don't think it's a big deal unless you're starting at an unusually high level.

Well, playing a Gish overall with the stuff available in Core in a game under level ~9-10 is a pain since the multiclass Gish really starts with the worst of the both worlds and gets better as the PrCs get further away.

Besides, as a Gish there aren't terribly many level 5 spells that interest you (Overland Flight, obviously, but you only need one per day) which opens that level up to all the handy 1st level spells Quickened (6th level is much harder with Greater Dispel Magic, Anti-Magic Field, Contingency, Globe of Invulnerability & co. of course), which gets you a few Quickened spells without using a Rod.


But yeah, that's one of the big issues with core Gishdom in the first place; it takes a long while to become efficient in it (though Mirror Images, Displacements & al. are nice).



And the increased benefit of starting as a fighter rather than as a wizard?

P.s. If it sound. err read as offensive or rude, it is not intentional

HP

Zovc
2009-11-01, 02:09 PM
Wouldn't it be better to take your first level as a Fighter?

I'm not seeing why, unless you don't acquire new proficiencies when you take a class that has more. If so, then yes.

Either way, I wasn't trying to imply a particular order, really, just a framework of the build. I suppose an order was implied, though.

EDIT: I think you're saying that because you would start the game with 10 HP? Yes, I suppose you're right, if your GM is making you roll for every other hit dice.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-01, 02:09 PM
And the increased benefit of starting as a fighter rather than as a wizard?

P.s. If it sound. err read as offensive or rude, it is not intentional

HP is 10+Con mod vs 4+Con mod.

Eldariel
2009-11-01, 02:14 PM
I'm not seeing why, unless you don't acquire new proficiencies when you take a class that has more. If so, then yes.

Either way, I wasn't trying to imply a particular order, really, just a framework of the build. I suppose an order was implied, though.

EDIT: I think you're saying that because you would start the game with 10 HP? Yes, I suppose you're right, if your GM is making you roll for every other hit dice.

For everything but max HD on every HD, Fighter first is better (averages, rolls, etc. all mean that the first Max is gonna give on average bigger returns for higher die size than the rest).

Zovc
2009-11-01, 03:05 PM
...but everything else I've said is sound? X3

Paulus
2009-11-01, 04:10 PM
Sounds good to me, but it still lacks the oomph of melee. As far as I am aware 20 bab is important for melee types. possibly for the pure number of attacks. Which is also why most of these gishes seem to rely on poly and shape change. ...in all honesty it's looking like the best core gishs will always be divine casters. Arcane just can't seem to keep up in melee for core.

Which is honestly a shame, and makes the Divine Power vs. Transformation gap almost insulting. But then I suppose the real question is. What is the best core melee? Minus magic, divine, arcane, or otherwise.

strange connections really, though honestly from all of this I'd go Sorcadin just because I prefer spontaneous casting and the synergy.

Unless of course.... one could research a arcane version of divine power....

Saph
2009-11-01, 04:27 PM
strange connections really, though honestly from all of this I'd go Sorcadin just because I prefer spontaneous casting and the synergy.

Unless of course.... one could research a arcane version of divine power....

Sorcadin's very viable outside of core. Something like Pal 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5 will take you up to level 12, and it's quite effective from about level 6 upwards. Pick some defensive buffs like Dragonskin, and you'll have great saves and a great AC as well. The only problem is that it's a bit meh around levels 4-5.

Divine Power isn't generally worth it for a well-built arcane gish, because they're only going to be about 2 points of BAB down anyway, and eliminating that isn't worth the action cost of casting a rounds/level spell.

Eldariel
2009-11-01, 04:51 PM
Divine Power isn't generally worth it for a well-built arcane gish, because they're only going to be about 2 points of BAB down anyway, and eliminating that isn't worth the action cost of casting a rounds/level spell.

However, if going all sources open, it MAY be worth losing extra BAB and relying on Divine Power to make up for it; this is particularly the case if the Incantatrix is available where their level 3 ability of being able to Persist a bunch of buffs unsurprisingly is absolutely ridiculously awesome for Gishes.

And sometimes Divine Power can still be worthwhile simply because BAB determines how much you can PA for, which quite directly translates to damage especially if stuff like Wraithstrike, True Strike, Shock Trooper & co. is game (and of course, it's truly emphasized when multipliers are accounted for in the equation).


Also worth noting that even from level 12 onwards, the Sacred Exorcist levels are also awesome for a Sorcadin since getting Turn Undead means you get Divine Might Cha times per day for a lot of bonus to damage. The whole Sorcadin career is an upwards curve; you lose your 2 points of BAB and 2 levels of casting over the first 6 levels and then it's smooth sailing.

Paulus
2009-11-01, 05:22 PM
Sorcadin's very viable outside of core. Something like Pal 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5 will take you up to level 12, and it's quite effective from about level 6 upwards. Pick some defensive buffs like Dragonskin, and you'll have great saves and a great AC as well. The only problem is that it's a bit meh around levels 4-5.

Divine Power isn't generally worth it for a well-built arcane gish, because they're only going to be about 2 points of BAB down anyway, and eliminating that isn't worth the action cost of casting a rounds/level spell.

Oh yeah outside of core there are so many options it isn't even funny. But I was thinking along the lines of core only... I've been trying to work myway up the D&D latter to become a Dm myself someday so I don't have to keep LOOKING for game. So I'm learning all I can about every part of it, ...but there is literally SOOO much out there to learn. So for now, I'm focusing on getting core down at the least so I can present it to some friends or family and we can do a small first time game with core alone.

Having said that, I wanted to keep a NPC in the wings for emergency blah blah, because I doubt very heavily I'll get a full group and we won't be doing gestalt, so if I have to run a DNPC, I want him to be able to fill any role they need. Part of my research now then is finding out what core classes are the best and why.

I know Cleric because of Divine power and other buffs.
I know Druid for wildshape, and animal companion off tanking.
I know Wizard for versatility. (though the bookwork still daunts me)
And I know a few other tricks and such here and there, but as far as melee goes... it doesn't seem you can be as affective with the other classes for various reasons without magic to compliment. Therefore, this nearly always leads to Gishes, so I was learning as much as I could about them. And my conclusions thus far is that Arcane, though seemingly the most powerful, really gets shafted in many days compare to divine.

Arcane Spell failure in armor. Memorizing and buying spells. Lower base attack bonus all around.

yet i keep hearing how they can melee, just apparently, not for core only.

Akal Saris
2009-11-01, 05:45 PM
I'll suggest Ranger 1/Wiz 5/Eldritch Knight 10/XYZ 4, since Ranger gets a lot of useful early skills like spot and listen.

JonestheSpy
2009-11-01, 07:10 PM
As far as I am aware 20 bab is important for melee types. possibly for the pure number of attacks. Which is also why most of these gishes seem to rely on poly and shape change. ...in all honesty it's looking like the best core gishs will always be divine casters. Arcane just can't seem to keep up in melee for core.


Well, yeah. Full BAB is the meat and drink of warrior classes, so of course a character that also has spellcasting is going to lose some of that - balance, y'know? Or at least an attempt.

rockdeworld
2009-11-17, 10:39 PM
So if you were building a core gish, the effective starting level is 10? Could someone post a build with the order you would level classes/pick feats/pick spells/buy things? It sounds like a lot of work.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-17, 10:44 PM
So if you were building a core gish, the effective starting level is 10? Could someone post a build with the order you would level classes/pick feats/pick spells/buy things? It sounds like a lot of work.Core, it definitely is. I'd go casting early on. Low-level casting is a waste at higher levels until your dual-progression class kicks in. I'd go Wizard 5/Fighter 1/EK 10/Wizard 3/Fighter 1, taking the UA alt wizard for Fighter feats. BAB 16/Wizard casting 17, 5 bonus fighter feats. Not great, but the best you can do.

sambo.
2009-11-17, 10:58 PM
Huh, not much in the way of melee are they? Almost all of them mentioned have a dip in paladin, not for divine I know. But what makes Sorcadin so good comparatively? say to a Fight/wizard/eldritch knight?

Divine Grace.

by having a Charisma based caster side and the Divine Grace paladin class ability, you get to add your Cha modifier to all saves in addition to any relevant dex/wis/con modifiers you have.

the downside is: you have to be a goody two shoes paladin and remain a goody two shoes to keep yon Divine Grace. (note: this means never commiting an "evil act". casting a negative energy spell, like Enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm), would probably be classified as an "evil act", so check with thy DM. Paladinhood is very, very easy to lose depending on your DM)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-17, 11:05 PM
No [Evil] descriptor!

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-17, 11:18 PM
No [Evil] descriptor!Countered by, "He'd have the [Paladin] descriptor!" This means that he can fall if he sneezes too hard.

And doesn't cast bless on himself after he does (whether it's too hard or not).

sambo.
2009-11-17, 11:28 PM
No [Evil] descriptor!

channeling negative energy sure sounds like an Evil Act to me.

in any case, i wouldn't be taking Enervation, or any other negative energy type spell, without first checking with my DM where I stand Paladinhood'wise.

casting [Evil] descriptor spells, it goes without saying, is an evil act.

i'm actually rather keen to find a Gestalt campaign to play in so I can make a Paladin/Sorcerer.

i havn't played a DnD Pally since the early days of 2ed.

I had a 1ed paladin (rolled the old fashioned 3d6 straight down the char sheet method too btw :smallbiggrin:), he got seriously obnoxious (read: overpowered) once he got his grubby mitts on a Holy Avenger sword.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-17, 11:30 PM
channeling negative energy sure sounds like an Evil Act to me.

Whereas burning someone's face off with acid sure sounds like a good act.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-17, 11:32 PM
channeling negative energy sure sounds like an Evil Act to me.You mean, performing a Good act by channeling a Neutral energy type against an Evil foe is evil? This here is why I hate paladins, and the alignment system in general.


in any case, i wouldn't be taking Enervation, or any other negative energy type spell, without first checking with my DM where I stand Paladinhood'wise.You're best off avoiding paladin period.


casting [Evil] descriptor spells, it goes without saying, is an evil act.Right. Even if extremely minor, casting [Evil] spells is evil.

sambo.
2009-11-17, 11:48 PM
You mean, performing a Good act by channeling a Neutral energy type against an Evil foe is evil? This here is why I hate paladins, and the alignment system in general.
"negative" energy isn't "neutral" energy, it's "negative" energy.


You're best off avoiding paladin period.
meh, sometimes i just feel like being a goody two-shoes crusader type.

i wouldn't play a Paladin in a standard game, but as a 3.5ed Gestalt build, strikes me as t3h Ub3r Gish.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-18, 12:20 AM
"negative" energy isn't "neutral" energy, it's "negative" energy.Neutral-aligned energy channeled from a Neutral-aligned plane. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#negativeEnergyPlane) And the positive energy and elemental fire planes are just as hostile to most life, so you can't use that as an argument. They're Neutral, too.


meh, sometimes i just feel like being a goody two-shoes crusader type.

i wouldn't play a Paladin in a standard game, but as a 3.5ed Gestalt build, strikes me as t3h Ub3r Gish.Yay ToB crusader. Or even paladin of freedom. At least those have a little leeway.

sambo.
2009-11-18, 12:38 AM
Neutral-aligned energy channeled from a Neutral-aligned plane. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#negativeEnergyPlane) And the positive energy and elemental fire planes are just as hostile to most life, so you can't use that as an argument. They're Neutral, too.
the following bit ends my question:

Class abilities that use negative energy, such as rebuking and controlling undead
Pallys channel negative energy to turn undead, therefore they can throw negative energy spells around without risking their Paladin'hood. subject to said spells not having an [evil] descriptor ofc.

olentu
2009-11-18, 01:03 AM
the following bit ends my question:

Pallys channel negative energy to turn undead, therefore they can throw negative energy spells around without risking their Paladin'hood. subject to said spells not having an [evil] descriptor ofc.

Er rebuke and command are not turn and destroy.

John Campbell
2009-11-18, 11:59 AM
Then there are no true core gishes. The gish definition that I commonly hear requires 16 BaB AND 9th level casting, and you need splatbooks to get there. You can still quickened polymorph or shapechange into a combat form and beat on things.
Uh, no, you don't.

Fighter 2/Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight 10 gives you CL 17 and 9th level spells (8 Wiz + 9 EK), and +16 BAB (Fighter 2 + Wiz 4 + EK 10).

Substitute full BAB class to taste. I think for a two-level dip I prefer the Fighter feats over Barbarian rage that I can't use to full effect because I can't cast while raging, or, uh, anything whatsoever that involves being a Paladin.

Ranger's got its points, though... it's not like you're going to be wearing heavy armor anyway, and it gets you Track, your first combat style feat, your first favored enemy, a mess of skill points (especially if you take it as your first level) and decent class skills to spend them in (including Concentration, which you're really going to want, though, bizarrely, not including Spellcraft), and access to a divine spell list so you can use CLW wands or whatnot. The HD are not great, but the 6 HP average difference between Ranger and even Barbarian isn't going to mean much in the long run.

rockdeworld
2009-11-19, 03:15 AM
How about this one as a build?

Fighter 1/Wizard 6/EK 5 for ECL 12 - can finish off with EK5/Archmage 2
BAB 9, CL 10
(Character Sheet link & stats in spoiler below)
http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=991

Specialized: Transmutation
Barred: Evocation, Enchantment
Owl Familiar
Permanencied: (On self) Comprehend Languages, Darkvision, Detect Magic, Read Magic, See Invisibility, Resistance; (On spellbooks) Invisibility
Spellbooks additionally trapped with: teleport (return book to home), sepia snake sigil, and arcane mark (puts "THIEF" on the pickpocket)
Glove of Storing holds Rod of Quicken Metamagic, to be retrieved, used, and stored while still holding the greatsword.

Stat roll:
5,6,6 = 17 Int
5,1,2 = 8 Cha
4,5,4 =13 Con
6,5,5 = 16 Str
2,6,3 = 11 Dex
6,1,4 = 11 Wis

Level bonus:
+1 Int
+1 Con
+1 Dex

(Alternatively: 15 Int, 14 Str, 13 Con, 12 Dex, 10 Wis, 8 Cha, with +2 Int, +1 Con level bonuses)

HP rolls:
10 Base (Fighter)
6d4
3,2,1,4,3,2 = 15 (Average is 15)
5d6
2,4,2,4,6 = 18 (Average is 17.5)
+Level*Con

Feats:
Level 1: Improved Initiative
Human Bonus: Iron Will
Fighter Bonus: Power Attack
Level 3: Skill Focus: Concentration
Level 6: Cleave
Wizard Bonus: Extend Spell
Eldritch Knight Bonus: Great Cleave
Level 9: Craft Wondrous Item
Level 12: Quicken Spell

Skills: (Level)x(Int+1)
Fighter: 4x6 SP
Climb (4), Craft (4,4), Jump (4), Ride (4), and Swim (4)
Wizard: 6x6+3 (int bonus) SP
Concentration (10), Knowledge (10), Spellcraft (10), Climb (2), Jump (2), Swim (2), Craft (3)
EK: 5x7 SP
Concentration (5), Jump (5), Knowledge (5), Sense Motive (10), Spellcraft (5), Swim (5)



Items and costs:
32400 +2 Frost Shock Greatsword
35000 Rod of Quicken Metamagic
Crafted Belt of Giant Strength +6
Crafted Headband of Intellect +4
Crafted Bracers of Armor +5
Crafted Cloak of Resistance +3
Crafted Glove of Storing
8000 Ring of Protection +2
55 MW Artisan's Tools
30 Spellbooks
5 Spell Component Pouch
8275 Scrolls (used)
====
83765 total



Spells Known: From Levels, Learned
0: All
1: 8, 4
Alarm
Shield
Grease
Identify
Mage Armor
True Strike
Ray of Enfeeblement
Enlarge Person
+Protection from Evil (25 gp)
+Silent Image (25 gp)
+Feather Fall (25 gp)
+Comprehend Languages (25 gp)
2: 4, 8
Glitterdust
Alter Self
Mirror Image
Invisibility
+Web (150 gp)
+Blur (150 gp)
+Protection From Arrows (150 gp)
+See Invisibility (150 gp)
+Rope Trick (150 gp)
+Darkvision (150 gp)
+Bull's Strength (150 gp)
+Owl's Wisdom (150 gp)
3: 4, 6
Dispel Magic
Blink
Haste
Displacement
+Protection From Energy (375 gp)
+Stinking Cloud (375 gp)
+Slow (375 gp)
+Invisibility Sphere (375 gp)
+Tongues (375 gp)
+Shrink Item (375 gp)
+Sepia Snake Sigil (375 gp)
4: 4, 3
Dimension Door
Greater Invisibility
Enervation
Polymorph
+Solid Fog (700 gp)
+Fear (700 gp)
+Dimensional Anchor (700 gp)
5: 4, 2
Teleport
Shadow Evocation
Baleful Polymorph
Permanancy
+Overland Flight (1,125 gp)
+Telepathic Bond (1,125 gp)
Critiques are appreciated.

Q1: Should I switch from sword to Spiked Chain/Guisarme tripper?

Q2: when is a good time to cast self-buffs (i.e. (extended) Blink/Blur/Mirror Image/Displacement/Haste/Polymorph/G. Invisibility/etc)? At the beginning of a dungeon, the beginning of a fight, or some other time?

rockdeworld
2009-11-20, 06:06 PM
Bump for comments on my build.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-20, 06:09 PM
Your weapon enchantments are poor. You'd be better off with a Wounding weapon.

deuxhero
2009-11-20, 06:15 PM
Well, core as in "first three books", no. Core as in "available for free in the SRD so no reason for anyone to not have access to it", yes.

Though if you were to allow any first party stuff you can get for free on top of core, Swiftblade tends to take the cake.

rockdeworld
2009-11-20, 08:35 PM
Your weapon enchantments are poor. You'd be better off with a Wounding weapon.
Wounding is that good? Or my choices are that bad?

If the latter, what would be better?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-20, 09:39 PM
+2 Frost Shock Great Sword.

1. You don't need +2, since you can cast GMW on it.
2. Frost gives 1d6 cold damage, and Shock 1d6 lightening damage. That's 24,000 GP for an average of 7 damage, which can be easily negated by monster energy resistance at that level. It's just a really bad idea.

Holy is good. Wounding is good. Vicious is good, if you have a source of healing. But other than that, the enchantments just eat your money without giving worthwhile benefits.

Beelzebub1111
2009-11-20, 09:44 PM
The most important feat for any Gish to take is Still Spell.

Crow
2009-11-20, 10:37 PM
I will nominate Psion4/Ranger2/Slayer10/Psion4.

rockdeworld
2009-11-21, 12:44 AM
+2 Frost Shock Great Sword.

1. You don't need +2, since you can cast GMW on it.
2. Frost gives 1d6 cold damage, and Shock 1d6 lightening damage. That's 24,000 GP for an average of 7 damage, which can be easily negated by monster energy resistance at that level. It's just a really bad idea.

Holy is good. Wounding is good. Vicious is good, if you have a source of healing. But other than that, the enchantments just eat your money without giving worthwhile benefits.
I see your point. Is going +4 worth it though (especially if someone else crafts it)?

Updated version for critique (http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=991)