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Loki Eremes
2009-11-03, 02:32 PM
hi there people.

Excepting Tome of Battle,

Could you name me some other clases that gain sneak attack dice once per 2 lvls? (like rogue class)

Kylarra
2009-11-03, 02:35 PM
Sneak attack variant fighter does.

Draz74
2009-11-03, 02:37 PM
I'm pretty sure Rogue is the only non-Variant, non-PrC class that gets Sneak Attack every two levels.

Ninja gets Sudden Strike, which is similar but weaker.

Assassin and some other PrCs get full Sneak Attack progression.

Spellthief is another base class that gets Sneak Attack, but at a slower progression than the Rogue. Same with a number of PrCs, such as Blackguard.

EDIT: And "excepting Tome of Battle" has nothing to do with it. None of the Tome of Battle classes get Sneak Attack, except for one Stance that gives +2d6 Sneak Attack (which really isn't the same thing, since it's an ability you gain one time instead of a progression).

Ravens_cry
2009-11-03, 02:37 PM
Scout and Ninja, or so I have heard.
Core? Assassin PrC.
EDIT:
Ninja-ed about Ninja's, how delightful.:smallamused:

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-03, 02:38 PM
Rogue, Ninja, Swashbuckler (requires Daring Outlaw).

None of the Tome of Battle classes have a sneak attack progression, BTW. The Swordsage gets Sneak Attack from a stance, but it never advances beyond 2d6.

Loki Eremes
2009-11-03, 02:41 PM
I'm pretty sure Rogue is the only non-Variant, non-PrC class that gets Sneak Attack every two levels.

Ninja gets Sudden Strike, which is similar but weaker.

Assassin and some other PrCs get full Sneak Attack progression.

Spellthief is another base class that gets Sneak Attack, but at a slower progression than the Rogue. Same with a number of PrCs, such as Blackguard.

EDIT: And "excepting Tome of Battle" has nothing to do with it. None of the Tome of Battle classes get Sneak Attack, except for one Stance that gives +2d6 Sneak Attack (which really isn't the same thing, since it's an ability you gain one time instead of a progression).


i told that about tome of battle cause my DM hates it. xD
i dont have it and dont know either whats inside :3


mmmm, wheres the variant - fighter????? i mean, which manual?

Blackfang108
2009-11-03, 02:42 PM
i told that about tome of battle cause my DM hates it. xD
i dont have it and dont know either whats inside :3


mmmm, wheres the variant - fighter????? i mean, which manual?

Unesarthed Arcana/SRD, I believe.

Eldariel
2009-11-03, 02:52 PM
Lists of Stuff (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=662842).

Draz74
2009-11-03, 02:59 PM
mmmm, wheres the variant - fighter????? i mean, which manual?

Here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) (Excerpted from Unearthed Arcana.)

Asbestos
2009-11-03, 03:03 PM
Is there any benefit to the Thug variant beyond the Skill Points?

Eldariel
2009-11-03, 03:08 PM
Is there any benefit to the Thug variant beyond the Skill Points?

No. That's the whole point. Skill points & expanded skill list kick ass though. Heck, when building my Fighter 20s for the Tarrasque Killing, two have been Thugs thus far and only one has been a real Fighter since giving up one feat for extra 2 sp per level is just easy.

ZeroNumerous
2009-11-03, 03:33 PM
i told that about tome of battle cause my DM hates it. xD
i dont have it and dont know either whats inside :3

Your DM must hate fighters getting shiny things, because that's what is inside it.

Also: No one mentioned Spellthief?

Tavar
2009-11-03, 03:38 PM
Somebody did mention spelltheif, with the note that it gains a slower SA progression.

ZeroNumerous
2009-11-03, 03:40 PM
Somebody did mention spelltheif, with the note that it gains a slower SA progression.

Indeed. I missed Draz talking about it.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 06:39 PM
Factotums get the ability to spend inspiration points for sneak attack damage. All official sources have stated that they can spend multiple IPs for multiple d6s, too.

FMArthur
2009-11-03, 08:16 PM
Yes, Factotums with the Font of Inspiration feat (taken over and over) can nova a gigantic Sneak Attack by spending all of their Inspiration Points on one attack, doable once per encounter if need be.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 08:35 PM
Yes, Factotums with the Font of Inspiration feat (taken over and over) can nova a gigantic Sneak Attack by spending all of their Inspiration Points on one attack, doable once per encounter if need be.

You're better off using Iaijutsu Focus, really.

Save the sneak attacking for ability damage and (possibly) negative levels and level drain.

Darrin
2009-11-03, 08:54 PM
Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) gets SA every 3 levels.

Dragon Devotee 4 + Unseen Seer 4 gains 4d6 sneak attack over 8 levels, although not necessarily every other level.

You can also take one-level dips into Ronin (requires EWP: Bastard Sword) and Nightsong Enforcer (requires Imp. Init.) for +1 BAB and +1d6 sneak attack.

Assassin/Avenger also gets 1d6 every other level. Invisible Blade gets 3d6 (dagger only) over 5 levels.

Thurbane
2009-11-03, 08:58 PM
Factotums get the ability to spend inspiration points for sneak attack damage. All official sources have stated that they can spend multiple IPs for multiple d6s, too.
Can you point to any of these official sources - I've never seen them?

Samb
2009-11-03, 09:38 PM
Using IP to boost cunning strike is not the best use of IP. It is stated plainly that you can spend IP for d6 in the text doesn't it?

I don't really get iijutsu focus. You can't do a full attack with sneak attack by RAW unless you can somehow resheath your weapon after each attack which even when you think about it should take up some kind of action. Also this skill is from OA, and might be allowed in a lot of games. Everytime I hear that this is better than SA I always wonder about these points.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 09:48 PM
Can you point to any of these official sources - I've never seen them?

This guy's questions made it into the The Sage column. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871722/The_Factotum_Handbook?sort_order=ASC&post_num=133#338410774)

There were several Qs sent to CustServ posted in that thread, too, but I can't find them right off the bat.


Using IP to boost cunning strike is not the best use of IP. It is stated plainly that you can spend IP for d6 in the text doesn't it? Agreed, except when it's a case of things like ability damage, where it's very much worth it.


I don't really get iijutsu focus. You can't do a full attack with sneak attack by RAW unless you can somehow resheath your weapon after each attack which even when you think about it should take up some kind of action. Also this skill is from OA, and might be allowed in a lot of games. Everytime I hear that this is better than SA I always wonder about these points.Quickdraw allows it. As do gnomish quickrazors. And arrows used as melee weapons, as well.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-03, 10:48 PM
This guy's questions made it into the The Sage column. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871722/The_Factotum_Handbook?sort_order=ASC&post_num=133#338410774)
That doesn't make the answer right, of course. And in this case, since the Factotum class description is very particular in the use of the singular, the Sage isn't following the RAW. The Factotum can spend 1 inspiration point on Cunning Strike.

Actually, the Sage was 0 for 2 there.
It's reasonable to assume that sneak attack is an extraordinary ability. When in doubt, the DM should decide if an unmarked ability qualifies. Anything that lacks a clear, supernatural element should be fair play. Sneak Attack isn't marked as (Ex) in the Rogue class abilities, and the rules actually have a statement regarding these things:

Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. Sneak Attack is a natural class ability, according to the rules.

jokey665
2009-11-03, 10:54 PM
On Factotums and Sneak Attack:

Cunning Strike does not require any specific type of action, no swift, no immediate, not even free. I'm relatively certain you are not limited to a certain number of non-actions per turn, so I see no reason why you can't spend 1 IP to get 1d6 SA, then do it again. And again, if need be.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-03, 11:18 PM
Cunning Strike does not require any specific type of action, no swift, no immediate, not even free. I'm relatively certain you are not limited to a certain number of non-actions per turn, so I see no reason why you can't spend 1 IP to get 1d6 SA, then do it again. And again, if need be. While other Factotum abilities state that they don't require any action, Cunning Strike does not.
Starting at 4th level, you can spend 1 inspiration point to gain 1d6 points of sneak attack damage. You must spend the inspiration point to activate this ability before making the attack roll. Since, as you pointed out, the class description does not describe this use of an inspiration point as a free action, you've got to follow the text, which links use of the inspiration point with the attack roll. If you want more uses, you need more attack rolls.

jokey665
2009-11-03, 11:23 PM
While other Factotum abilities state that they don't require any action, Cunning Strike does not. Since, as you pointed out, the class description does not describe this use of an inspiration point as a free action, you've got to follow the text, which links use of the inspiration point with the attack roll. If you want more uses, you need more attack rolls.

Right, but I still don't see how this prevents you from using it more than once. Let's say you're about to make an attack roll and you decide to spend an IP on Cunning Strike. Now your attack will have 1d6 SA added to it. You still haven't made your attack roll yet, meaning you could use Cunning Strike again. I see no reason you wouldn't be able to. The word 'the' is not an explicit statement saying it can only be used once.

I feel like I'm arguing M:tG timing rules all over again.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-04, 12:13 AM
Right, but I still don't see how this prevents you from using it more than once.
Because it's not a free action to activate. Activation is tied to the attack roll.

sofawall
2009-11-04, 01:32 AM
While other Factotum abilities state that they don't require any action, Cunning Strike does not. Since, as you pointed out, the class description does not describe this use of an inspiration point as a free action, you've got to follow the text, which links use of the inspiration point with the attack roll. If you want more uses, you need more attack rolls.

Order of Events:

I use 1 inspiration point.
I use 1 inspiration point.
I use 1 inspiration point.
I attack.

Well, it looks like I managed to use one at a time, and they were all before the attack roll! Fancy that.

EDIT: It does not say anything along the lines of "When making an attack roll, you may spend 1 inspiration point to gain 1d6 sneak attack". It is more along the lines of a reroll ability, you decide to use before knowing whether or not it was a success, or even in this case, whether it was a good roll.

Thurbane
2009-11-04, 01:44 AM
Cunning Strike (Ex): With a quick study of a vulnerable opponent’s defenses, you can spot the precise area you need to hit to score a telling blow. Starting at 4th level, you can spend 1 inspiration point to gain 1d6 points of sneak attack damage. You must spend the inspiration point to activate this ability before making the attack roll. When determining if you can use sneak attack against a target that has uncanny dodge, use your factotum level as your rogue level.
Everything in the wording of the ability spells out the singular. If you have a DM who lets you interpret that as "as many as you have", well, good luck. I know it wouldn't fly in any game I ever played in, any more than Pun Pun would. I'd hardly call it RAW, and definitely wouldn't call it RAI, despite anything the Sage might have to say...

sofawall
2009-11-04, 01:48 AM
Everything in the wording of the ability spells out the singular. If you have a DM who lets you interpret that as "as many as you have", well, good luck. I know it wouldn't fly in any game I ever played in, any more than Pun Pun would. I'd hardly call it RAW, and definitely wouldn't call it RAI, despite anything the Sage might have to say...

Ok. It is singular. Read my above post. Just use them one at a time.

Thurbane
2009-11-04, 01:50 AM
Ok. It is singular. Read my above post. Just use them one at a time.
I did read your interpretation, and find it somewhat wonky, sorry to disagree.

By the above logic, a Barbarian can use up all his Rages simultaneously, and stack all of the unnamed modifiers (bonus to STR & CON, penalty to AC).

Entering a rage takes no time itself, but a barbarian can do it only during his action, not in response to someone else’s action.
...or perhaps more similar example to Cunning Strike would be the Paladin's Smite Evil...can they blow all of their daily uses and stack their CHA bonus to attack, and level to damage?

sofawall
2009-11-04, 01:52 AM
What, pray tell, forbids you from doing that? At what stage in the operation does it violate the wording of the ability?

Tanaric
2009-11-04, 01:59 AM
I'm surprised people can manage to be confused over that wording. You use the inspiration point before you make the attack roll. Then you use another one before the attack roll. Then you use another one. They're not even free actions, they're non actions.


Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions.

I'm really not seeing where the linkage of one inspiration point to one attack roll comes from.

sofawall
2009-11-04, 02:00 AM
I'm surprised people can manage to be confused over that wording. You use the inspiration point before you make the attack roll. Then you use another one before the attack roll. Then you use another one. They're not even free actions, they're non actions.



I'm really not seeing where the linkage of one inspiration point to one attack roll comes from.

Thank you sir.

FMArthur
2009-11-04, 02:01 AM
You wouldn't call it RAI? Really? Before FoI comes in and beefs up the Factotum a whole lot, it would still be too weak to be worthwhile if you could add many d6s. But a single d6 limit bumps the ability right down from "weak" into "never, ever used even in ideal circumstances". Despite some poor wording, the class is otherwise too well-designed and too well-balanced for me to believe in your 1d6 interpretation. It only becomes a problem when FoI is introduced, which is just a poorly thought-out feat to begin with.

Thurbane
2009-11-04, 02:03 AM
So a Paladin can use all of his Smites simultaneously, and a Barbarian can use all of his Rages simultaneously? Somehow I think not - just because an ability doesn't specifically state it can't be used an infinite number of times at once, doesn't mean it can...:smalleek:

You wouldn't call it RAI? Really?
If it is RAI, it is worded incredibly poorly.

FMArthur
2009-11-04, 02:03 AM
I did read your interpretation, and find it somewhat wonky, sorry to disagree.

By the above logic, a Barbarian can use up all his Rages simultaneously, and stack all of the unnamed modifiers (bonus to STR & CON, penalty to AC).

...or perhaps more similar example to Cunning Strike would be the Paladin's Smite Evil...can they blow all of their daily uses and stack their CHA bonus to attack, and level to damage?

Static bonuses from the same source don't stack. Additional dice do.

Tanaric
2009-11-04, 02:04 AM
That... is a huge logical fallacy, to be honest.


Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.

I'm sure you can see how that's not the same wording, yes?

Edit: And there's the above, too.

sofawall
2009-11-04, 02:06 AM
So a Paladin can use all of his Smites simultaneously, and a Barbarian can use all of his Rages simultaneously? Somehow I think not - just because an ability doesn't specifically state it can't be used an infinite number of times at once, doesn't mean it can...:smalleek:

You know, there's a rule for that.

Paladin Smite: "Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack."

No such restriction on Factotum, as I actually said earlier.

Barbarian Rage: "A barbarian can fly into a rage only once per encounter."

Only thing similar on Factotum is the Inspiration Points themselves.

Hmm, reading the actual rules triumphs again. Your move, sir.

Thurbane
2009-11-04, 02:11 AM
No need for the snark - I'm not disagreeing with you just to be a pest, I actually happen to believe you are reading the ability incorrectly. I'm sure we can disagree and still be civilized.

Anyway, according to Actions in Combat section of the SRD, "Use extraordinary ability" is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity...

Tanaric
2009-11-04, 02:15 AM
Except that makes no sense at all. A level 8 Factotum expends 3 inspiration points as a standard action to gain a standard action?

Uh...huh.

Thurbane
2009-11-04, 02:21 AM
Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. In every other case I can think of where you are able to use an ability multiple times simultaneously, it is very explicitly spelled out in the ability that you can do so. Cunning Strike contains no such wording.

IMHO, if it was supposed to be used that way, it would have wording like "You can spend multiple inspiration points to gain extra dice of sneak attack damage, 1d6 per point spent".

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. If you interpret differently, that's your prerogative. :smallwink:

sofawall
2009-11-04, 02:30 AM
{Scrubbed}

Tanaric
2009-11-04, 02:34 AM
I wouldn't call it lying, myself. I've seen my share of selective reading, though.

No need for hostility with the point proven.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-04, 02:45 AM
Right, but I still don't see how this prevents you from using it more than once. Let's say you're about to make an attack roll and you decide to spend an IP on Cunning Strike. Now your attack will have 1d6 SA added to it. You still haven't made your attack roll yet, meaning you could use Cunning Strike again. I see no reason you wouldn't be able to.
OK, use it as many times as you want. Each time you get a total of 1d6 sneak attack, since there's nothing in the class ability description that says these are allowed to stack. After all, it's the same source (Cunning Strike) each time.
Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession).

Thurbane
2009-11-04, 03:09 AM
EDIT: Wait, have you resorted to misquoting rules to prove your point? Lying, are you?
Wow, hostile much? :smallconfused:

I'm looking at the table in the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/actionsInCombat.html), under the Standard Action table, 4th entry from the bottom.

...but since you seem to have taken this all somehow personally, maybe we should just leave the debate as is. :smallamused:

sofawall
2009-11-04, 01:47 PM
Wow, hostile much? :smallconfused:

I'm looking at the table in the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/actionsInCombat.html), under the Standard Action table, 4th entry from the bottom.

...but since you seem to have taken this all somehow personally, maybe we should just leave the debate as is. :smallamused:

Text trumps table.


Extraordinary Abilities: Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are usually standard actions that cannot be disrupted, do not require concentration, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Blackfang108
2009-11-04, 02:23 PM
OK, use it as many times as you want. Each time you get a total of 1d6 sneak attack, since there's nothing in the class ability description that says these are allowed to stack. After all, it's the same source (Cunning Strike) each time.

Except the Dice aren't static modifiers, and therefore are not subject to the normal stacking rules on static modifiers.

Extra damage dice stack. Or are you saying the extra SA dice granted by the Blackguard class wouldn't stack with the SA from the rogue class?

sofawall
2009-11-04, 02:25 PM
Except the Dice aren't static modifiers, and therefore are not subject to the normal stacking rules on static modifiers.

Extra damage dice stack. Or are you saying the extra SA dice granted by the Blackguard class wouldn't stack with the SA from the rogue class?

Do people even fact check their arguments?


Sneak Attack

This ability, gained at 4th level, is like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage increases by +1d6 every third level beyond 4th (7th and 10th). If a blackguard gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.

Blackfang108
2009-11-04, 02:27 PM
Do people even fact check their arguments?

Forgive me for not having the time to look up on the SRD and go from a spotty memory.

But be nice. you've already gotten dinged once in this thread.

Also, that doesn't actually disprove my point, only my example.

sofawall
2009-11-04, 02:31 PM
Forgive me for not having the time to look up on the SRD and go from a spotty memory.

But be nice. you've already gotten dinged once in this thread.

Also, that doesn't actually disprove my point, only my example.

But if you cannot come up with another example, it does disprove your point.

Also, checking on D20srd, let's time myself...

To copy/paste it and surround it in quotes, it took me less than 30 seconds.

Blackfang108
2009-11-04, 02:33 PM
Also, checking on D20srd, let's time myself...

To copy/paste it and surround it in quotes, it took me less than 30 seconds.

{Scrubbed}

How about you provide ME an example? Show me a source of Sneak Attack that specifically does not stack with another source of sneak attack.

Or Sudden Strike/Skirmish/etc.

sofawall
2009-11-04, 02:36 PM
{scrubbed}

How about you provide ME an example? Show me a source of Sneak Attack that specifically does not stack with another source of sneak attack.

Or Sudden Strike/Skirmish/etc.

I actually am on the side that Sneak Attack does stack with itself. I merely cannot stand inaccurate proofs.

Blackfang108
2009-11-04, 02:42 PM
I actually am on the side that Sneak Attack does stack with itself. I merely cannot stand inaccurate proofs.

*facepalms*

I was showing how sneak attack always stacks with sneak attack.

The specific wording doesn't make my example invalid.

Here, is this better, elitist?: does a Rogue/Factotum gain an extra SA die by using the ability? Yes, because it doesn't say it doesn't stack.

sofawall
2009-11-04, 02:45 PM
Yes, because it doesn't say it doesn't stack.

Can I do a chicken dance to regain full hitpoints? Yes, because it doesn't say I cannot.

EDIT: You also did not prove that sneak attack always stacks with sneak attack. You proved that it happens to in this case.

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-04, 02:47 PM
Can I do a chicken dance to regain full hitpoints? Yes, because it doesn't say I cannot.

Except it has been stated that Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike from multiple sources stack. The Factotum's Cunning Strike is an ability that grants Sneak Attack.

sofawall
2009-11-04, 02:52 PM
Except it has been stated that Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike from multiple sources stack. The Factotum's Cunning Strike is an ability that grants Sneak Attack.

Where? I've it specifically for classes, (usually prestige classes) but not a general statement.

Blackfang108
2009-11-04, 02:53 PM
Can I do a chicken dance to regain full hitpoints? Yes, because it doesn't say I cannot.

Dude, if you did that IRL at my table, I'd say "yes."

Once.

After we all stopped laughing.

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-04, 03:01 PM
Where? I've it specifically for classes, (usually prestige classes) but not a general statement.

The only instance of Sneak Attack not stacking is Hunter's Eye. It specifically states that multiple castings doesn't give extra Sneak Attack, but that it does stack with actual Sneak Attack. The Rogue and the Factotum do not specifically state that they stack, but it also does not forbid it from stacking.

In core:


Sneak Attack: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same
name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level
(2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th). If an assassin gets a sneak attack
bonus from another source (such as rogue levels), the bonuses on
damage stack.


Sneak Attack: This ability,
gained at 4th level, is like the rogue
ability of the same name. The extra
damage increases by +1d6 every third
level beyond 4th (7th and 10th). If a
blackguard gets a sneak attack bonus
from another source (such as rogue
levels), the bonuses on damage stack.

Outside of Core, the Spellthief, the Assassin's Stance, and every single PrC that grants Sneak Attack says it stacks. Only the Rogue and the Factotum do not have this text, but they also lack the text forbidding it.


Its safe to assume they stack and that both abilities were overlooked during errata.

sofawall
2009-11-04, 03:10 PM
The only instance of Sneak Attack not stacking is Hunter's Eye. It specifically states that multiple castings doesn't give extra Sneak Attack, but that it does stack with actual Sneak Attack. The Rogue and the Factotum do not specifically state that they stack, but it also does not forbid it from stacking.

In core:



Outside of Core, the Spellthief, the Assassin's Stance, and every single PrC that grants Sneak Attack says it stacks. Only the Rogue and the Factotum do not have this text, but they also lack the text forbidding it.


Its safe to assume they stack and that both abilities were overlooked during errata.

I actually started checking all the classes in the lists of stuff, but there are a lot. I assumed they would be on all of the classes, but all of them also tend to be specific. I accept that sneak attack damage should stack from all sources, but the rules don't actually say that.

Doc Roc
2009-11-04, 03:22 PM
I have never seen a conflicting assumption. In this cause, I hold with Sinfire that the gestalt of precedence over-rides the specific absence of rules support. As you may know, I rarely say that.

Thurbane
2009-11-04, 03:57 PM
I actually started checking all the classes in the lists of stuff, but there are a lot. I assumed they would be on all of the classes, but all of them also tend to be specific. I accept that sneak attack damage should stack from all sources, but the rules don't actually say that.
Actually, all the above cited rules say that that sneak attack from different sources stack. The only one that says anything about it not stacking is Hunter's Eye, which specifically says it does not stack with itself. It would seem that the general rule is that sneak attack from the same source (i.e. if all sneak attack damage is from Cunning Strike) doesn't stack, while that from different sources does.