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Aldrakan
2009-11-03, 11:15 PM
I'm curious, are there any options for paladins who've fallen due to alignment changes beyond going back or going evil? Not starting as a variant with less restrictive requirements, but for an actual fallen paladin?

Something that gives some benefits from being a former paladin similar to the blackguard prestige class, but without having to do a 180 on your previous beliefs.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 11:19 PM
You might be able to squeeze into Grey Guard, but so far as I know, your choices are either going CE blackguard or being an NPC warrior.

There's also mindrape retraining, but...

Mongoose87
2009-11-03, 11:28 PM
Heroes of Horror has the Corrupt Avenger that will get you some benefit for your levels in (Fighter - bonus feats). So does Bone Knight from Five Nations.

lsfreak
2009-11-03, 11:44 PM
Something that gives some benefits from being a former paladin similar to the blackguard prestige class, but without having to do a 180 on your previous beliefs.

Something to keep in mind is that falling isn't - shouldn't be - sudden. You don't have to go back on your beliefs because your beliefs have slowly changed, twisted, perverted. The 'paladin' may not even realize they've fallen. It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it. I can't see most paladins willingly accepting they've fallen, they will continue to delude themselves into thinking they're right.

(Note that this requires a little concession by the DM, like not coming out of the blue and zapping your powers away, but working with you to RP things out.)

peacenlove
2009-11-04, 12:08 AM
These Classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) might help you on changing the paladin's abilities if he has fallen to Chaos, Evil or Both.

Aldrakan
2009-11-04, 01:40 AM
It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it. I can't see most paladins willingly accepting they've fallen, they will continue to delude themselves into thinking they're right.


So you recommend the Sith prestige class, I hadn't thought of that. :smallamused:
I was specifically looking for a place for ex-paladins without going evil, but no longer being able to abide by all the restrictions of pure paladinhood. It looks like retraining or DM assisted respeccing to a variant might be the only option.

While I don't know exactly what they involve, I'm guessing the Bone Knight and Corrupt Avenger from "Heroes of Horror" are not exactly saints.

Does the Grey Guard actually gain from being a former paladin, or is it just a prestige class with good stat requirement overlap laid over levels of inferior fighter?

Starbuck_II
2009-11-04, 06:41 AM
While I don't know exactly what they involve, I'm guessing the Bone Knight and Corrupt Avenger from "Heroes of Horror" are not exactly saints.

Corrupt Avengers are like Grey Jedi.
They do not work for Sith or Light Jedi: there are many Jedi organizations actually like them in Star wars.

Anyway, Corrupt Avengers are corrupt so they fell (or fell sincde they got corrupt either way): they use that corruption as a weapon to be stronger and fight evil. You can't be evil, but you don't have to be good.
If you were a Pally then you get bonuses.



Does the Grey Guard actually gain from being a former paladin, or is it just a prestige class with good stat requirement overlap laid over levels of inferior fighter?
No, you need a Code of Conduct to enter.

BobVosh
2009-11-04, 07:01 AM
Something to keep in mind is that falling isn't - shouldn't be - sudden. You don't have to go back on your beliefs because your beliefs have slowly changed, twisted, perverted. The 'paladin' may not even realize they've fallen. It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it. I can't see most paladins willingly accepting they've fallen, they will continue to delude themselves into thinking they're right.

(Note that this requires a little concession by the DM, like not coming out of the blue and zapping your powers away, but working with you to RP things out.)

I like the flavor. However...I think a fall should be obvious and blatant. Your god has literally turned his/her/its back on you. OotS did a very good job with Miko. A non permanent fall (via atonement) shouldn't be quite so blatant. However it should be known. I like the thought of fluctuating powers while on the quest for atonement(if required), however this would take a large part of co-op on the part of the player and DM in order to make this anything but a huge pain for the poor PC.

RMS Oceanic
2009-11-04, 07:17 AM
I believe either Complete Divine or Complete Warrior had a paladinesque Prestige Class that required you to be Chaotic Good, and ex-paladin levels helped enhance its powers.

JellyPooga
2009-11-04, 07:57 AM
As someone has mentioned, a Shadowbane Inquisitor (Complete Adventurer) doesn't lose any abilities for "falling" (i.e. changing alignment), but it doesn't actually help regain any Paladin abilities you lost from falling. Sweet if you didn't gain entry to the PrC through Paladin, but not-so-sweet if you did.

However, if you are already a fallen Paladin, then I don't know of any PrCs that would help...As far as I'm aware there isn't a Neutral version of Blackguard that will allow you to 'trade in' Paladin levels. The problem with the Paladin archetype is that typically they are very black-and-white in their outlook...they tend to go to extremes. To reflect this in game mechanics, you have the Paladin and Blackguard. The game designers later realised that people wanted to play more morally ambiguous Paladins (Shadowbane Inquisitor, Greyguard), but didn't go back on the idea that Paladins are all of the "black-and-white-hard-headed-thinking" stereotype. The concept of a Paladin who has simply lost his faith, who no longer wants to devote himself to an ideal like he did before and that is still a potent warrior is apparantly beyond the designers at WotC.

The only suggestion I have is to use the retraining rules from the PHBII. Beyond that, you're going to be stuck with your dead levels as long as you remain within officially published material. I suppose it wouldn't be too difficult to homebrew a PrC to fit your purpose...you could call it "Disillusioned" and it could have abilities revolving around being a cynical ex-holy man. I'd imagine some kind of resistance to the effects of alcohol would be appropriate...

If this is for a character that you are not playing yet, but are creating...just don't bother with the Paladin bit. Make a Fighter or whatever and write it into his backstory that he is really a fallen Paladin.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-04, 08:17 AM
Bone Knight is from Five Nations. Has undead-related abilities. Not evil, since it's Eberron and Eberron is like that.

Holy Liberator is from Complete Divine.

bosssmiley
2009-11-04, 09:07 AM
Traditionally, if you failed at Paladin by falling (but not too hard) you were relegated to Fighterdom as punishment. The old ways are the best. :smallamused:

Random832
2009-11-04, 09:32 AM
Feats didn't exist in earlier editions - and isn't a paladin with no special abilities basically the same thing as a fighter with no feats?

Leon
2009-11-04, 10:06 AM
Traditionally, if you failed at Paladin by falling (but not too hard) you were relegated to Fighterdom as punishment. The old ways are the best. :smallamused:

And the Fighters get to look down on you

Rhiannon87
2009-11-04, 10:42 AM
I believe either Complete Divine or Complete Warrior had a paladinesque Prestige Class that required you to be Chaotic Good, and ex-paladin levels helped enhance its powers.

Holy Liberator! It actually kind of sucks for fallen paladins, though, because pretty much none of your pally abilities stack. Which is ridiculous-- you can trade in paladin levels for blackguard levels, but not holy liberator. If you can convince your DM to homebrew some kind of similar conversion, then it's awesome.

Aldizog
2009-11-04, 01:18 PM
Feats didn't exist in earlier editions - and isn't a paladin with no special abilities basically the same thing as a fighter with no feats?
In 2E, a fallen paladin was a fighter without weapon specialization until he gained another weapon proficiency slot. And one who had allocated a 17 or 18 to Charisma.