Stupid Evil

[Closak]

So yeah, i was wondering if anyone had any stories to share about the subject.
I have heard about quite a few evil campaigns where the players were more than just a little suicidal.

For example:

Epic level evil campaign.

To make a long story short, we were meeting Tiamat herself to discuss a few things.
Turns out one of the party members was a lot dumber than we originally thought he was (Helps that he was drunk...WHY THE HECK DO YOU DRINK RIGHT BEFORE AN AUDIENCE WITH A EVIL GODESS!?)
Either way, he did some things that i rather not provide any detail about (Trust me, you do not want to know) that basically ended with him being extremely dead and us quickly denying any affiliation with him before running for our lives.
He kinda deserved it, but it's kind of annoying how he ruined the employement opportunity of the century.


And yes, i know i suck at explaining stuff.

I really am no good with words am i?

[valadil]

I really am no good with words am i?

Hard to say since you didn't describe what he did.

The problem with evil campaigns is that some players don't know what evil is. They see it as an excuse to be destructive. I feel like they'd be better off playing Grand Theft Auto instead of roleplaying badly.

That said, being drunk for an audience with Tiamat sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Not, totally wasted drunk, but drunk enough to get your courage up.

[chiasaur11]

"Now, lishardy lady, lesh get a few things straight. You're my beshtest buddy in the whole world, just you and me against the world."

[Mongoose87]

Well, a friend of mine ran a one-off session, and, when asked, she said it was OK for me to play a Chaotic Evil, insane Wizard/Wild Mage. Cool. Enter Marcus the Mad.

So, shortly after the giant holding our objective broke down in tears, weary of the fight I had started, because he wasn't being "fun," and as the party was consoling him, I waltz on up to him, give him a hug, apologize profusely, then chuck a fireball into his mouth. Then my girlfriend's TWF Ranger/Tempest/Other stuff came and beat me unconscious.

[Closak]

"Now, lishardy lady, lesh get a few things straight. You're my beshtest buddy in the whole world, just you and me against the world."

Something like that...

[FoE]

I find GIFT (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GIFT) tends to apply to evil campaigns as a rule, except the formula is modified:

Normal person + Evil' alignment + Lack of Consequences/Guilt because these are fictional people = Gregor Clegane

[Fishy]

...

He hit on the *&^%-Queen of all Dragonkind, didn't he?

[Closak]

...

He hit on the *&^%-Queen of all Dragonkind, didn't he?

Yes, yes he did.

The ideas you can get when you are drunk.


And this is why you shouldn't drink before having an audience with someone who can easily kill you if sufficiently annoyed.

[Dimers]

I occasionally run neutral evil characters, sometimes lawful evil, who cheerfully go along with the good-aligned party because doing stuff other people like tends to get you rewards. They're totally self-interested and don't actually care how the quest-givers feel -- they're just willing to pretend otherwise to get the goodies without fighting townfuls of enforcers.

The following is excerpted from Per Jorner's
"Nearly Ultimate Fallout 2 Guide" (http://user.tninet.se/~jyg699a/fallout2.html):
"... this means you really won't be able to role-play either an inherently noble character or a terminally sarcastic one. The former because there are several quests where you'll get your best result doing something "bad" to begin with, then following up with something good, as well as other borderline or outright evil quests which are simply too neat to pass up. The latter because it's a well-known fact that in computer RPGs which let you play an "evil" or grouchy character, you'll ultimately be punished for doing so because if you tell everyone you meet how ugly they are, they won't give you quests or bonuses. Such is life. You can always pretend you're role-playing a psychopath who acts nice outwardly because he knows it will suit his purposes, while all the time thinking of new ways to strangle people with their own intestines."

Yeah, that. The only other evil character concept I'd really want to play is someone in love with a PC paragon of goodness, who tries to win that PC's heart but fails because s/he fundamentally Doesn't Get the whole "caring about others" thing. And even that situation is just because it makes interesting RP drama. Evil doesn't make much sense to me. Why play a game full of hate, betrayal, judgement and fear? It's not my cup of tea. So I guess what I'm saying is, most evil is stupid evil.

[AshDesert]

In a one-off Evil session that my group played, one the players played a psychotic CE Halfling Rogue who convinced the DM (me) to give him EWP: (Silverware) and used a collection of d2 damage dinner knives. The thing was, he would always flip a coin, to determine damage in combat, but to determine whether he was going to be sane or psychotic (i.e., stab the closest living thing). That was a fun session...

[drengnikrafe]

Yes. One of my PCs can't call it a good campaign until he's stolen something. To date, he's got a star ruby (that put a Mark of Justice on him), a ring of invisibility (that shocked him into being unconscious), and a Greatsword (which exploded on him. Twice, actually). It's almost fun, though. How he keeps me on my toes, as far as new, inventive ways to make him pay for theft.

[Zaydos]

I had one player who thought evil meant: Shoot everything... Actually they thought being a sorcerer meant shoot everything but...

I had another player who would always play "CN" and then try to selfishly backstab everyone nearby including the other PCs, his characters had a short life expectancy in a campaign with a DM that actually knew the diplomacy rules and that 16 +11 did not a 34 make.

[Devils_Advocate]

The only other evil character concept I'd really want to play is someone in love with a PC paragon of goodness, who tries to win that PC's heart but fails because s/he fundamentally Doesn't Get the whole "caring about others" thing.
White Mage: Would you mind stepping back so I can heal him?
Black Mage: Yyyynnnn... Yyy... n. I er... This is a trick question, isn't it? ... Why don't you just tell me what you want me to answer? Better hurry, White Mage. He's not gettin' any healthier. *turns to Red Mage* Ain't that right? I said, "Ain't that right?"! *kicks Red Mage*
- 8-Bit Theater (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2001/03/02/episode-001-were-going-where/)

[Guancyto]

...

He hit on the *&^%-Queen of all Dragonkind, didn't he?

Hey, Tiamat's a classy dame.

I mean, drunken one-liners are right out, but with enough Charisma and saying just the right things, you can get yourself a sweet gig as a divine consort.

Also, that seems less Stupid Evil and more just Stupid. :smalltongue:

[ghashxx]

One rogue absolutely loved to cause trouble in a bar, insulting people and making someone so mad they would draw a weapon, then blame the random npc for all the trouble that happened...like the npc's death for example. That guy was definitely frustrating, and once we got tired of having innocent people get killed at taverns we ganged up with the npc one time and slew the evil rogue. It helped that the Paladin finally used "detect evil" just for in game verification.

[golentan]

Yeah, that. The only other evil character concept I'd really want to play is someone in love with a PC paragon of goodness, who tries to win that PC's heart but fails because s/he fundamentally Doesn't Get the whole "caring about others" thing. And even that situation is just because it makes interesting RP drama. Evil doesn't make much sense to me. Why play a game full of hate, betrayal, judgement and fear? It's not my cup of tea. So I guess what I'm saying is, most evil is stupid evil.

I don't know. I've got a Redcloak style villain going on right now. You don't even have to be mean to see the little people as expendable stepping stones on the path to the greater good.

(the character did things like force feed the guy he was questioning a zombified rat, and every time the fellow failed to answer a question the rat begins chewing again. He also ordered his troops to leave children to die on the grounds that their lives are meaningless anyway in a world without victory on the front he chose to fight. He cries about it at night, but is still evil).

[Crafty Cultist]

Being destructive and disrespectful to powerful characters is not automaticaly stupid evil, as long as you do it when you think you can get away with it. if you burn down a building being seen or make a snarky comment to the emperor you aren't being stupid evil, youre just roleplaying your character.
the main problem comes when players dont know restraint and see every encounter as an opportunity to reek havoc. those with no self control dont last long anywhere unless they're leagues ahead of every one else power-wise

[Thorcrest]

We played an evil adventure once we were an entirely evil party, two neutral evil, two chaotic evil, one lawful evil, one neutral. We entered a town and basically one guy went "me chaotic evil me stab in back" he was a rogue, by the way, the I , as the other chaotic evil character went "look villagers trying to escape and guards coming YEAH", pull out swords and kill, ya a simplistic character but with his background it makes sense. Anyways thee whole party basically decided to start killing the village cause they could report us to better armed authorities or killing them for the hell of us. Except for the neutral Bard who sat playing music at the old folks home which we then butchered... This makes me feel like Belkar... anyways we went away from evil games from then on because one of us thought "me chaotic evil me stab in back" and well that just wouldn't do, at least, not without a lot of GOOD RPing and backstory, but it was hilarious watching our bard roleplay by playing guitar with a look of horror on his face for a whole evening :smallbiggrin::smallannoyed::smalleek:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm reminded of a crazy session my brother told me about. It was an epic level evil game, where he was the only Chaotic Neutral in a group of Evil characters. My brother was a half-dragon vampire thanks to his levels of Red Dragon Disciple, and he was easily the sanest of the group. The other group members liked to pick on him by flipping off the hood of his cloak that somehow protected him from sunlight so they could hear him scream in pain as he pulled his hood back up.

One of them was a half-orc named Sir B*tchsmack, who fought by throwing cabers at the enemy. Hollow cabers loaded with dynamite. And did I mention his secret half-orc p0rn magazine?

Another had a fireball for a head, and when the game started in a tavern with a stage, he got on the stage and started doing Shakespeare. When the tavern's patrons ignored the man with a BALL OF FLAME for a head, he spat on the curtain, which caused the entire tavern to burn down.

Another character left the group for a moment to relieve himself, and a freak portal to the Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia opened behind him. He fell through, and ended up falling from the ceiling of a banquet hall in Celestia, landing in the hostess' lap. And then he ended up defecating all over the hostess' dress.

Finally, the group goes up against a worm that walks, and one of the worm's crawls up the rectum of my brother's character. Since they reason you have to kill all the worms in a worm that walks so it'll stay permanently dead, they beat the tar out of my brother's character and then ressurect him or something after they kill the worm.

I honestly couldn't believe what I was hearing when he told me about this. But he thought it had all been very fun. Would this be considered Stupid Evil or just plain ol' Stupid?

[Dr Bwaa]

*snip*
:smallbiggrin::smallannoyed::smalleek:

Lol.

We had an all-evil campaign that went like this, actually. It was pretty funny, for the two sessions it lasted. Each character (in the tavern, naturally) took a turn going upstairs and then going "Watch me prove how CE I am!" Good times.

We had another campaign that wasn't explicitly all-evil, but it turned out that way. That campaign lasted much longer, and was a ton of fun because we'd figured out how to role-play by that point. Highlights from that game:

My CE dwarven fighter (wielding a Bat'leth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_weapons_in_Star_Trek#Bat.27leth) possessed with the soul of a legendary Dwarven berzerker who fell in single combat with a Balor (after single-handedly killed nearly ten thousand Orcs), whose spirit then inhabited the Bat'leth and slew the Balor by itself) and his human clan-brother (similar kind of story) found themselves teleported by this wizard who was messing with us into a huge underground cavern, with WHOLE ARMIES on either side of us--one of Goblins, one of Kobolds. Understand, these are several-thousand-person armies, complete with siege equipment and so on. We turned, one to each army, and rolled Intimidate before charging. The intimidate scores were each well over 60 or 70 or something, so the damn things panicked and we had a butcheryfest (Tordek definitely caught about 8 Gobbos at once on his bat'leth and impaled on on his helmet-spike).

At some point, we found ourselves in a room with birdbath-like structures full of blood, high arches and some kind of vampiric casters. After killing all of them, we walk into the main room, which has a moat of blood and bones surrounding a glowing red portal, and we hear "YOU'RE TOO LATE!"
http://www.d2tomb.com/sshots/294-01.jpg

And yes, we then fought and killed Mephisto, and gold and randomly determined items (determined by our DM actualy killing Meph, lol) came springing out of him in a big pile.

Later, we ended up with a deck of many things, which resulted in, among other things, several party members' "body functioning, but soul trapped elsewhere" (including Tordek, who proceeded to switch places with the soul in his bat'leth), along with various other crap as DoMT tend to do.

Anyway, that got way off-topic, but it was really, really fun (and an example of stupid-Evil being fun for everyone so long as everyone knows what they're getting into. That was our loudest campaign ever (we always talked in character. This required an obscene amount of yelling and profanity.).

:biggrin:

[Curmudgeon]

Evil doesn't have to be stupid. Even chaotic evil characters don't have to be disruptive in an adventuring party. So they may vacillate between brutally killing foes and terrorizing them so they run away screaming: that's chaotic and evil. But it still works with the standard party's goals: hunt down enemies, defeat them, and take their stuff.

Bad players are just bad players.

[AslanCross]

Evil doesn't have to be stupid. Even chaotic evil characters don't have to be disruptive in an adventuring party. So they may vacillate between brutally killing foes and terrorizing them so they run away screaming: that's chaotic and evil. But it still works with the standard party's goals: hunt down enemies, defeat them, and take their stuff.

Bad players are just bad players.

Agreed. I find evil campaigns thoroughly distasteful, but neither Graz'zt nor Asmodeus are stupid evil.

[Starbuck_II]

Agreed. I find evil campaigns thoroughly distasteful, but neither Graz'zt nor Asmodeus are stupid evil.

Asmodeus is LAWful evil. They can function in any adventuring party. It is the code of conduct: it keeps them on a leash.

[Curmudgeon]

Asmodeus is LAWful evil. They can function in any adventuring party. It is the code of conduct: it keeps them on a leash. Ah, but the point is you don't need a code of conduct: you just need brains. Chaotic evil still works in a party, if the character (and player) think things through.

So maybe you squabble with the party about whether to get an early start or sleep in (and they don't know which side you'll pick each day); that's chaotic. But you don't kill them over that difference of opinion, because you're not stupid. You know if you keep on reasonable work terms with these people you'll have more opportunities to seek out and kill foes that you couldn't handle by yourself. As an evil character, that knowledge makes you happy.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Chaotic isn't stupid, Chaotic just means that you don't really see the point in holding to some grand order of existence. All that matters in the entire Universe is what you want, and how to go about getting that with the least amount of trouble. A CE character does whatever he believes is best for him, at any moment. This often doesn't include random murders, because they have consequences.

A CE character might not see any problem with bumping off the merchant you meet in the Wilderness and stealing his stuff, but doing it in the city unless you've planned it well enough just ends up in harming you.

CE means the Universe exists entirely for your pleasure. Other people's feelings, desires, they don't matter except as objects of amusement. They take a great deal of pleasure in flaunting the law, but flaunting the law requires that you don't get punished.

[Amphetryon]

I find GIFT (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GIFT) tends to apply to evil campaigns as a rule, except the formula is modified:

Normal person + Evil' alignment + Lack of Consequences/Guilt because these are fictional people = Gregor Clegane
:smallmad: You linked tvtropes. Thanks; I had things to do.

Most people I've seen cannot play evil because they use it as an excuse to be giant flaming jerkbags to everyone, their own party included. Alignment extremes in both directions seem to run into this problem, as many Paladin players run around with a "regulation 2 by 4" up their backsides in a way that would make OotS's iconic fallen pally ashamed.

EDIT: Modifiers: they're very useful!

[Necron]

I occasionally run neutral evil characters, sometimes lawful evil, who cheerfully go along with the good-aligned party because doing stuff other people like tends to get you rewards. They're totally self-interested and don't actually care how the quest-givers feel -- they're just willing to pretend otherwise to get the goodies without fighting townfuls of enforcers.I'm totally onboard with this. And it's the main reason I allow any alignment for PC's bar Chaotic Evil. I've had a lot of awesome characters that were LE/NE that functioned perfectly fine in a Neutral/Good aligned group.

Though the 1 Evil person in a group full of Good characters is asking for a beatdown.

It just seems like you need to have a good mix of everything, or mostly the same... the more disparity of party weight between Good and Evil = the more problems you'll have. Cause in a group of 5... if 4 guys are Good... that just gives em an excuse to murder the Evil guy eventually.

[Dimers]

I don't know. I've got a Redcloak style villain going on right now.

Yeah, well, I did say "most". Having read The Start of Darkness, I'd say the actual Redcloak is Not Stupid Evil. Xykon is, though. There's no reason given for his willingness to kill people of his own race (pre-lichdom) or his love of death-as-entertainment; there's nothing he's not willing to do. I like his philosophical interaction with Redcloak, but he otherwise has no character. And Nale isn't much better, though he basically acknowledges that he's just a parody of the 'evil twin' concept.

[Wereling]

Yeah, well, I did say "most". Having read The Start of Darkness, I'd say the actual Redcloak is Not Stupid Evil. Xykon is, though. There's no reason given for his willingness to kill people of his own race (pre-lichdom) or his love of death-as-entertainment; there's nothing he's not willing to do. I like his philosophical interaction with Redcloak, but he otherwise has no character. And Nale isn't much better, though he basically acknowledges that he's just a parody of the 'evil twin' concept.
I'm not sure Xykon's really all that stupid. I get the feeling he does what he does because it's expected of him, and because it's fun. The fact he's as personally powerful as he is means he can afford to "play" a little on the way to his ultimate goal, which causes others to underestimate him (to date at least two of the original guardians and an infernally-enhanced V). The fact that others can sometimes get the best of him isn't really stupidity, but arrogance. He is not (and has never claimed to be, to my knowledge) a mastermind.

[Volkov]

I'm pretty sure the deity who's been in the hells longer than most archdevils would kill the drunkard for not filing the appropriate paper work in triplicate, and getting it sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public inquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters.

[Drakyn]

I'm not sure Xykon's really all that stupid. I get the feeling he does what he does because it's expected of him, and because it's fun. The fact he's as personally powerful as he is means he can afford to "play" a little on the way to his ultimate goal, which causes others to underestimate him (to date at least two of the original guardians and an infernally-enhanced V). The fact that others can sometimes get the best of him isn't really stupidity, but arrogance. He is not (and has never claimed to be, to my knowledge) a mastermind.
I think in this case, "stupid evil" more applies to just mindlessly being...y'know, evil. Like offing your henchmen constantly because you're bored, or killing and reanimating your parents for giggles. Evil without any real POINT. Lord knows Xykon's not dense when the chips are down, but alignment-wise he's as Stupid Evil as Miko was Lawful Stupid.

[Xenogears]

I think in this case, "stupid evil" more applies to just mindlessly being...y'know, evil. Like offing your henchmen constantly because you're bored, or killing and reanimating your parents for giggles. Evil without any real POINT. Lord knows Xykon's not dense when the chips are down, but alignment-wise he's as Stupid Evil as Miko was Lawful Stupid.

I dunno. He enjoys killing people. So did people like Ted Bundy. It's not like he kills the minions just to be evil. That would be Stupid Evil. He kills them because its fun. That might be Stupid (wasting resources) but it is not Stupid Evil since there is a reason for him to do it. It's fun. Not a morally good reason but thats what makes it evil. So it is Evil and is Stupid but is not Stupid Evil.

[Yukitsu]

Just because you have a reason doesn't mean your reason isn't stupid.

Me DM, myself and another player were discussing the difference between other player (stupid evil) and evil genius. We concluded it's because stupid evil does evil for evils sake or some other inane reason, whereas evil genius only does it because it's necessary as an expedient for a grander purpose.

[Dimers]

I'm not sure Xykon's really all that stupid.

Ahh. Not to say that Xykon is stupid -- it's his evil that's stupid. Why does he do evil things instead of neutral things? Because -- um, well -- that is -- he just does, darnitall! He does it because it's fun? Why is it fun for him? No reason was given. No, his dialogue shows that he's got a reasonable Intelligence, and even some Wisdom. It's just that there's no point to him being evil in The Start of Darkness.

[SmartAlec]

Ahh. Not to say that Xykon is stupid -- it's his evil that's stupid. Why does he do evil things instead of neutral things? Because -- um, well -- that is -- he just does, darnitall! He does it because it's fun? Why is it fun for him? No reason was given. No, his dialogue shows that he's got a reasonable Intelligence, and even some Wisdom. It's just that there's no point to him being evil in The Start of Darkness.

I think it's implied that while he was a jerk in life, he was also pretty laid-back and inconstant in his evil, a bit of an epicure. When he becomes a lich, he loses that ability to appreciate the finer things in life, and death and destruction are the only things he can take any joy in. In a way, it's the only way he can relate to anyone any more; by killing them.

[mikeejimbo]

Agreed. I find evil campaigns thoroughly distasteful, but neither Graz'zt nor Asmodeus are stupid evil.

Why do you find evil campaigns distasteful? I'm not saying you shouldn't (in fact, it's a good sign for your moral compass that you do), I'm just genuinely curious what about it you find distasteful? If it's the wanton slaughtering of women and children* or if it's the PCs stabbing one another**.

* Which we were ordered to do

** Accident, I swear!

[Loxagn]

Stupid Evil is just another name for poor characterization.

'Evil' characters need complex motives, perhaps even more so than Good or Neutral ones. The trick is making a character engaging and deep, without turning them into another mama's boy with a tragic past.

One of my favorite villains I ever made was a military general, an extremely powerful Paladin-type. He was the epitome of Lawful Good, a hero to his people. There was never a battle he lost, never a man he left behind. This man was bold, charismatic, handsome, a natural-born leader that everyone looked up to. But then he met someone who was just a bit more powerful than him, someone he couldn't beat in a fight. He lost, and badly. It drove him insane. His ego couldn't take losing, and so he turned to other sources to make himself more powerful. He eventually found a legendary sword so steeped in the blood of its victims that merely touching it was an evil act.
Seeking the blade out, he eventually found it, and immediately was overrun by how powerfully evil the sword was. He became a vicious murderer, and worse, he was nearly unstoppable with the level of power he wielded. The campaign went on and he did many very horrible things in his quest for being completely invincible, and was eventually killed by the party.
I remember being told how much my players hated him, not because he was a bad character, but because he was doing his job as a villain, inspiring fear and hatred in everything you do.
Evil is not a 'do whatever you want' free pass. Evil is a complex set of motivations that carry you far, far away from morality.



I see a lot of people abusing the Neutral alignments, too, more as an excuse to be chaotic evil without having that nasty stigma of being Evil. You can interpret Chaotic Neutral many ways, but constantly being a pyromaniacal jerkass is not one of them.
I play a CN bard in a predominantly evil party. He lies like only a bard can, steals like a rogue, and finds ways to cheat the system whenever he can to benefit himself. He's defined on the idea that he will do whatever he feels like, on a complete whim. But a lot of people forget that as a character, he's just as inclined to good as anything else. One member of the party raised a blade to kill a starving beggar woman that had been bothering us, when my bard drew his bow and aimed at the other person, point blank.
"Touch her, and I'll put an arrow between your eyes." As the rest of the party looks on in shock, the bard gives the woman his fur cloak (it was winter), a day's rations, and 50 GP. When the player asked me what my justification for Rem suddenly acting like a Paladin was, I replied curtly, "I'm Chaotic Neutral. Just because you go around burning orphanages doesn't mean I have to."
I got roleplaying xp for that. :smallbiggrin: