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Lysander
2009-11-05, 11:31 AM
Is there such a thing? Are there any races or templates that are so overwhelming disadvantageous that you actually get bonus levels to make up for it?

AstralFire
2009-11-05, 11:35 AM
No. I've seen Kobold houseruled that way, but it's too dangerous to do that unless you're doing situational adjustments (oh, you want to be a sword and board TWF ranger? Go for it. Druid? HAHAHAHA NO.)

Grushvak
2009-11-05, 11:35 AM
Is there such a thing? Are there any races or templates that are so overwhelming disadvantageous that you actually get bonus levels to make up for it?

There are none, though there are some races that are considered below LA+0. They do not, however, give you bonus levels. See kobolds without dragonwrought cheese for exemples.

Draken
2009-11-05, 11:43 AM
Well. There is the incarnate construct template on savage species -4 Level adjustment.

Of course, the template basicaly takes a construct (a creature with dozens of immunities, usualy numerous hit dice, and quite often nasty special abilities) and takes everything awayeaving only a humanoid/giant with a probably very large strength modifier, no bonus constitution, debilitatingly low charisma, poor wisdom, probably poor intelligence and usualy low agility to boot.

Grushvak
2009-11-05, 11:47 AM
Then again, Savage Species is just plain silly.

I really ought to do this Anthropomorphic Bat Cloistered Cleric character concept I've been toying with. +6 wis cleric / skillmonkey character with a base fly speed and no LA? Yes please.

subject42
2009-11-05, 11:51 AM
Well. There is the incarnate construct template on savage species -4 Level adjustment.

Can't you apply that to a warforged and get some serious chicanery?

Yuki Akuma
2009-11-05, 11:53 AM
I could see a race with racial HD and a negative level adjustment to compensate for the crappiness of racial HD. Free class levels is a very bad idea though.

But something like a kobold? No, first level kobold sorcerers are bad enough as it is.


Can't you apply that to a warforged and get some serious chicanery?

Such is the problem with making a subtype that does the same thing as a template.

Also a problem with constantly publishing new books for a game for five years without really considering what has come before it.

Draken
2009-11-05, 12:02 PM
Can't you apply that to a warforged and get some serious chicanery?

Just opened the book to check it again. The line says.

Level Adjustment: -2 (minimum 0)

So yes, you could apply the template to a warforged. But you would lose all the benefits of being a warforged without gaining... Anything at all.

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-05, 12:05 PM
Can't you apply that to a warforged and get some serious chicanery?

Requires the potential construct to be mindless.

Draken
2009-11-05, 12:09 PM
Actualy it does not.

AstralFire
2009-11-05, 02:05 PM
I could see a race with racial HD and a negative level adjustment to compensate for the crappiness of racial HD. Free class levels is a very bad idea though.

But something like a kobold? No, first level kobold sorcerers are bad enough as it is.



Such is the problem with making a subtype that does the same thing as a template.

Also a problem with constantly publishing new books for a game for five years without really considering what has come before it.

eh. In this case, it was good to ignore it. The template was not very good.


Just opened the book to check it again. The line says.

Level Adjustment: -2 (minimum 0)

So yes, you could apply the template to a warforged. But you would lose all the benefits of being a warforged without gaining... Anything at all.

Template that gives +2 LA, apply with this? Is Winged applicable?

Fax Celestis
2009-11-05, 02:11 PM
Template that gives +2 LA, apply with this? Is Winged applicable?

Half-Fey. Gives wings AND SLAs. +2 LA, applicable to any living, corporeal, non-fey creature. Despite being constructs, warforged are LIVING constructs.

So a Half-Fey Incarnate Construct Warforged has wings, SLAs, Immunity to Enchantment, At-Will charm person, and +4 Cha.

sonofzeal
2009-11-05, 02:27 PM
Half-Fey. Gives wings AND SLAs. +2 LA, applicable to any living, corporeal, non-fey creature. Despite being constructs, warforged are LIVING constructs.

So a Half-Fey Incarnate Construct Warforged has wings, SLAs, Immunity to Enchantment, At-Will charm person, and +4 Cha.

If you applied the templates in that order, wouldn't you lose the SLAs?

Oslecamo
2009-11-05, 02:31 PM
I believe that warforged don't count as living for template purposes.

This is, they're mass produced from a factory, you just can't have an half-anything warforged!

Grushvak
2009-11-05, 02:47 PM
Then again, Savage Species is just plain silly.

I really ought to do this Anthropomorphic Bat Cloistered Cleric character concept I've been toying with. +6 wis cleric / skillmonkey character with a base fly speed and no LA? Yes please.

Seriously, would this build be viable? Has anything like this ever been done before?

Kobold-Bard
2009-11-05, 02:51 PM
Seriously, would this build be viable? Has anything like this ever been done before?

Anthropomorphic Bat is the single best race for noncombatant Divine classes like Cloistered Cleric and Druid (because Wild Shape mitigates the negative Stat Mods). 0LA and +6 Wis = :biggrin:

hamishspence
2009-11-05, 02:53 PM
I believe that warforged don't count as living for template purposes.

This is, they're mass produced from a factory, you just can't have an half-anything warforged!

Half-templates can be applied via magic- they don't always have to be due to hybridization.

Grushvak
2009-11-05, 03:02 PM
Anthropomorphic Bat is the single best race for noncombatant Divine classes like Cloistered Cleric and Druid (because Wild Shape mitigates the negative Stat Mods). 0LA and +6 Wis = :biggrin:

Only thing that worried me was 5 ft. land speed, and average maneuverability on flight speed. Dungeon corridors would be this character's bane. Then again, that what physically stronger allies are for, isn't it? Just perch yourself on the Warforged's shoulder, or hold onto his back with your tiny claws.

Mark Hall
2009-11-05, 03:13 PM
Only thing that worried me was 5 ft. land speed, and average maneuverability on flight speed. Dungeon corridors would be this character's bane. Then again, that what physically stronger allies are for, isn't it? Just perch yourself on the Warforged's shoulder, or hold onto his back with your tiny claws.

The current fashion in our group is to hide people in the warforged's chest compartment.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-05, 03:15 PM
Only thing that worried me was 5 ft. land speed, and average maneuverability on flight speed. Dungeon corridors would be this character's bane. Then again, that what physically stronger allies are for, isn't it? Just perch yourself on the Warforged's shoulder, or hold onto his back with your tiny claws.Disguise Self as a Bat. Have the Rogue wear robes over his armor and perch on his shoulder. He makes bluff checks every time you cast a spell. Bam, you're a familiar and therefore cannot be targeted.

Grushvak
2009-11-05, 03:16 PM
The current fashion in our group is to hide people in the warforged's chest compartment.

This gave me an awesome idea for my next Warforged character. He'll take Leadership, Jermlaine Cleric cohort, and the ugly little fey will simply live inside him, buffing as needed.

HELLZ YEAH BEST FEAT EVER

Duke of URL
2009-11-05, 03:19 PM
Only thing that worried me was 5 ft. land speed, and average maneuverability on flight speed. Dungeon corridors would be this character's bane. Then again, that what physically stronger allies are for, isn't it? Just perch yourself on the Warforged's shoulder, or hold onto his back with your tiny claws.

Can't do much about land speed, but the Improved Flight feat will get air maneuverability up to good, which is good enough for most purposes.

Mongoose87
2009-11-05, 03:20 PM
This gave me an awesome idea for my next Warforged character. He'll take Leadership, Jermlaine Cleric cohort, and the ugly little fey will simply live inside him, buffing as needed.

HELLZ YEAH BEST FEAT EVER

Cleric? I think you mean Artificer!

Grushvak
2009-11-05, 03:26 PM
Cleric? I think you mean Artificer!

Makes sense, but then I wouldn't benefit from the extremely high Jermlaine wisdom.

Are there any tiny LA+0 classes that could work for this? Maybe a kobold could work thanks to Slight Build.

I'm trying to come up with some good combinations here. Warforged Warblade with live-in Kobold Artificer? Warforged Artificer with live-in Jermlaine cleric? How about a Warforged Warblade with a live-in kobold warlock throwing his Eldritch Blasts through murder holes in the warforged's chest plating?

EDIT: I wonder how shapechanging / Tenser's Transformation or others would affect the little guy living inside my body.

EDIT2: I like the idea of an Eldritch Glaive Warlock (Warforged) with an artificer kobold cohort living inside him. You're playing a so-so tier 4 class rendered nigh unstoppable by a very large array of buffs from a cheesy tier 1 caster who, for all intent and purpose, is unkillable and unstoppable as long as you stay alive.

Inhuman Bot
2009-11-05, 08:01 PM
Xvarts have LA: -2. I can't recall their book, though.

olentu
2009-11-05, 08:05 PM
Xvarts have LA: -2. I can't recall their book, though.

They are from dragon 339 though I recall that being a mistake where someone copied the NPC class CR adjustment instead of the LA.

ericgrau
2009-11-05, 08:11 PM
You'd need to penalize spells and wildshape somehow. Or have a no-caster clause. Or, I dunno, give a -4 or -6 to con. "I can cast solid fog at level 6 but I have 10 hit points." EDIT: Hmm, but in a high stats game it wouldn't be such a big deal.

Thurbane
2009-11-05, 08:12 PM
Is there such a thing? Are there any races or templates that are so overwhelming disadvantageous that you actually get bonus levels to make up for it?
None that I know of, but if it diod exist...1/2 Orcs!

Mongoose87
2009-11-05, 10:09 PM
Makes sense, but then I wouldn't benefit from the extremely high Jermlaine wisdom.

Are there any tiny LA+0 classes that could work for this? Maybe a kobold could work thanks to Slight Build.

I'm trying to come up with some good combinations here. Warforged Warblade with live-in Kobold Artificer? Warforged Artificer with live-in Jermlaine cleric? How about a Warforged Warblade with a live-in kobold warlock throwing his Eldritch Blasts through murder holes in the warforged's chest plating?

EDIT: I wonder how shapechanging / Tenser's Transformation or others would affect the little guy living inside my body.

EDIT2: I like the idea of an Eldritch Glaive Warlock (Warforged) with an artificer kobold cohort living inside him. You're playing a so-so tier 4 class rendered nigh unstoppable by a very large array of buffs from a cheesy tier 1 caster who, for all intent and purpose, is unkillable and unstoppable as long as you stay alive.
There must be some way to have tiny warforged.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-05, 10:15 PM
There must be some way to have tiny warforged.Are there any templates that give the Giant type? That would do it.

sonofzeal
2009-11-05, 10:22 PM
You'd need to penalize spells and wildshape somehow. Or have a no-caster clause. Or, I dunno, give a -4 or -6 to con. "I can cast solid fog at level 6 but I have 10 hit points." EDIT: Hmm, but in a high stats game it wouldn't be such a big deal.
It's generally agreed you can't have a negative total LA, although you can use things like Incarnate Construct to cancel some of the LA you already have.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-11-05, 10:29 PM
HAHAHA, a half-minotaur (other +1 template) warforged with Incarnate Construct would be a total hardass in melee combat.