Rank schools in order (3.5)

[cheezewizz2000]

Now, this has probably been done before but what do people think the most powerful schools of magic are, in order? We aren't counting universal as a school for these purposes.

The reason I ask is a Sorcerer varient that a friend of mine came up with, making each sorcerer a specialist that gets to focus on one or two schools (based on a homebrewed mechanism, called Talent Points, which I'll outline if people want me to), but loses all ability to cast other spells. This means that, if talent points are spent correctly, a sorcerer can have full casting in all schools if they really want to.

In exchange for losing versatility they gain increased caster levels when casting spells from their school, more spells known from that school (including spells that aren't on the class list), the ability to add some metamagic feats for free 1/day/spell level and, as a cap-stone, SR20+caster level against all spells from that school, including the ones that don't allow SR.

[Kurald Galain]

Conjuration (hands down)
Transmutation (those are the two "never ban this!" schools)
Necromancy (powerful debuffs)
Illusion (its power depends on the player's imagination)
Divination (solid but not always impressive)
Enchantment (many monsters are mind-resistant, its debuffs tend to be redundant with illusion or necro)
Abjuration (mainly kept for Dispel Magic, which can be covered by the cleric or warlock)
Invoction (most commonly suggested ban for specialists)

[lsfreak]

Conjuration
Transmuatation
Illusion
(These three have almost all of the best damage spells, battlefield control, combat and non-combat buffs, utility spells, and defenses. You could play a wizard or sorcerer with only these three schools and wouldn't be lacking whatsoever)

Necromancy
Abjuration
(Nowhere near as versatile as the first three, but still powerful in their own right. Dispel magic gets a special mention when it's not available to anyone else in the party)

Evocation
Enchantment
(The former is firstly the worst thing you can spend your actions doing and secondly Conjuration does it better in the first place, the latter is almost entirely blocked by a 2nd-level level spell and half the monsters are immune anyways).

EDIT: Divination is actually one of the best ones for a wizard, but since a sorcerer won't have nearly the spells known as a wizard, it'll rank fairly low.

[cheezewizz2000]

See, the list my friend uses is

Conjuration
Transmutation
Evocation
Illusion
Abjuration
Enchantment
Necromancy
Divination

Simply because divination spells on their own are a little lacklustre. They really rely on you having other spells to back up your predictions. Necromancy has very little utility. Evocation at least offers some battlefield control (wall of force, force cage) and some utility (miracle, sending).

[DragoonWraith]

It's dependent on level. Enchantment can get you a lot of places early (yay Charm Person!) plus it's got plenty of sweet debuffs. Late-game, though, too many immunities to worry about, so it drops in power quite a bit.

Evocation is, hands-down, the worst school. It's small, easily replaced with other schools, and focuses on direct damage when direct damage is a very poor way to build a caster. Conjuration, followed by Transmutation, are hands-down the best schools. They have the most spells, a huge variety of effects, and can go a very long way towards replacing other schools (Mage Armor is Conjuration, Orb of X is Conjuration, etc). They also have a good share of SR: No or Save: None spells, which is always nice (read: possibly broken by itself)

Illusion is probably the most versatile school, though it has a tendency to allow a lot of saves against its effects and some of it is Mind-Affecting, which has the same problems as Enchantment. Still, for sheer versatility, it gets a ton of points. The Image spells are limited only by your imagination, and Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation are... rather obvious in their use to anyone who is restricted in spells known or in allowed schools.

Overall, I'd agree with Kurald, with the exception that at higher levels Abjuration becomes better than Enchantment. Also, I'd point out that Conjuration and Transmutation are much better than the rest, while Necromancy and Illusion are fairly close, and Divination, Enchantment (at low levels), and Abjuration are pretty close.

[Tavar]

Really, I think abjuration really depends on the party. If you're going to be the only person with easy dispel access, or the only one who would really use it, it's indispensable. Especially since it actually has some nice buffs(the protection spells, the resist spells, etc).

[Optimystik]

I put Abjuration 3rd, ahead of Illusion. All those nifty tricks don't mean a thing if you're dead, or the party is turned against you.

Conjuration
Transmutation
Abjuration
Illusion
Divination
Necromancy
Evocation
Enchantment

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I put Abjuration 3rd, ahead of Illusion. All those nifty tricks don't mean a thing if you're dead, or the party is turned against you.

Conjuration
Transmutation
Abjuration
Illusion
Divination
Necromancy
Evocation
EnchantmentEvery round the Wizard spends casting a spell off of the Cleric list, for that round, the Wizard is a chump-TreantMonklvl20

Abjuration has very few good spells that the Cleric or Druid can't do. If you're the only caster, it's vital just for Dispel Magic, but if there's even a single non-sorcerer caster besides you, toss it.

Conj(Beats up the other schools and takes their stuff)
Trans(Reality too confining? Change it)
Illusion(you can't cast if you're dead, and Illusion is better defensively than even Abj)
Necromancy(blocked by some, but some seriously OP effects even ignoring the Wightocalypse)
Div(good, but limited)
Abj
Enchant(everyone is immune)
Evocation("Anything you can do I can do better")

[lsfreak]

There's also the issue that Illusion has bar-none the best defenses. Blur, displacement, invisibility, and mirror image, for example.

[Akal Saris]

My preferences based on my own playstyle:
Conjuration
Transmutation
Enchantment
Illusion
Necromancy
Evocation
Divination
Abjuration

In terms of powerful schools:
Conjuration and Transmutation
Illusion and Abjuration
Enchantment and Necromancy
Evocation and Divination

[Bayar]

Actually, I'd rate transmutation higher than conjuration. Transmutation gets time stop, PAO, Shapechange at high levels. Conjration doesnt really compare with transmutation at spell level 9. But conjuration has a lot of goodies at low levels, more than transmutation.

If you cant solve stuff with illusions, either your target is immune to the spells or you are not trying hard enough.

People assume evocation is all blasty spells. It is not. It has enough good spells to deserve not being banned.

Divination is a good vital tool for every wizard. There are enemies out there. Enemies that want you dead. You can know everything about those enemies with this.

Abjuration. Yeah, you can protect. But better let the CoDzilla handle this aspect. And let the sorcerer counterspell.

Necromancy: Some good stuff, some bad stuff and some WTF stuff (no really, Death Throes ? What. The. **** ? )

Enchantment: Let the bard handle this.

So:

1. Conjuration/Transmutation
2. Illusion
3. Evocation
4. Divination
5. Abjuration
6. Necromancy
7. Enchantment

[Sstoopidtallkid]

People assume evocation is all blasty spells. It is not. It has enough good spells to deserve not being banned.1: Not just blasty spells, sucky blasty spells.
2: Shadow Evocation/Craft Contingent Spell/etc. You can mimic the good evocation without the schoot, generally to greater effect.

[DragoonWraith]

Evocation is less bad (though it is pretty bad), and more easily replaced. That matters more for the considerations of specialization.

[The_Werebear]

1) Transmutation - This is a personal thing, as my playstyle is better able to use more transmutation effects.
2) Conjuration - Still the close second. These two are really very close to tied.
3) Necromancy - It has a little bit of everything, and some incredibly powerful debuffs
4) Abjuration - If the Divine Caster is CoDzillaing around, it often falls to you to have that Dispel Magic. Plus, my general playstyle is buffer, so I get plenty of use out of this.
5) Divination - Just say no to Illusion. Also, I managed to exasperate one DM so much with this school that he eventually just passed me his campaign notes.
6) Illusion - Powerful effects with plenty of room for creativity, yes, but still frequently shut down by Divination. Suffers from being Mind effecting.
7) Enchantment - Again, powerful effects, but the best stuff is this time shut down almost completely by a first level Abjuration effect. Also, it tends to raise more moral questions than even necromancy, which gets annoying.
8) Evocation - Killed my many Abjuration Effects, Rogues, Spell Resistance, the Fact that Conjuration and Trasmutation get better damage effects, and the general lack of use that a blastercaster is compared to a battlefield controller.

[jiriku]

1. Conjuration
2. Transmutation
3. Illusion
4. Divination
5. Necromancy
6. Abjuration
7. Enchantment
8. Evocation

However, I'd comment that the difference in effectiveness between schools is DRAMATICALLY less for a sorcerer than for a wizard, assuming all sourcebooks are allowed. This is because even a dog of a school like enchantment or evocation has five or six spells that are really dynamite, and pocket-rocket schools like conjuration and transmutation have so many good spells that you can't possibly know them all. Your limited spells known means that half a dozen spells is all you can really take advantage of anyhow.

[tyckspoon]

Actually, I'd rate transmutation higher than conjuration. Transmutation gets time stop, PAO, Shapechange at high levels. Conjration doesnt really compare with transmutation at spell level 9. But conjuration has a lot of goodies at low levels, more than transmutation.


Conjuration wishes to vigorously dispute this claim. Conjuration's position will be argued by a 40 HD extraplanar dragon.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

6) Illusion - Powerful effects with plenty of room for creativity, yes, but still frequently shut down by Divination. Suffers from being Mind effecting.Not mind-affecting(in fact, mindless opponents often don't get a save), and the best spells in it affect you, not others. Invisibility, Greater Mirror Image, Displacement, this school does it's best work against Mindblanked opponents.

[deuxhero]

Every round the Wizard spends casting a spell off of the Cleric list, for that round, the Wizard is a chump-TreantMonklvl20


A wizard who casts mage armor and the schools other high duration spells in combat instead of when combat is near/start of day is not playing his 18 minimum int.

[lsfreak]

Not mind-affecting(in fact, mindless opponents often don't get a save), and the best spells in it affect you, not others.

Yup, this is a huge thing that many people overlook at first. If you use minor image to make it look like there's a wall between you and a bunch of skeletons or monstrous vermin, it's not that they aren't fooled, it's that they are fooled and remain fooled even when arrows start shooting out of the wall at them.

[Gnaeus]

Mage Armor is in Conjuration. It's done that way just to confuse the Abjurant Champions of the world.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

A wizard who casts mage armor and the schools other high duration spells in combat instead of when combat is near/start of day is not playing his 18 minimum int.Mage Armor is Conjuration. I was talking about Dispel Magic and similar, or Protection From X and similar 1 min/level spells.

[deuxhero]

I think we can agree that whoever thought mage armor belonged in conjuration over Abjurantion was... strange, and it should have been errataed.

[DragoonWraith]

Mage Armor is in Conjuration. It's done that way just to confuse the Abjurant Champions of the world.
The Abjurant Champion is so funny (by which I mean sad). The author clearly thought Mage Armor was Abjuration (which it so totally should be, but it is not).

Still, I've played Abj Champs and have yet to have a DM tell me no, I couldn't have Mage Armor as an Abjuration.

[cheezewizz2000]

So, I've taken everybody's responses and ranked them by giving 8 points to the top school in each comment, 7 points to the next one and so on.

Based on the sum of the scores, the list is:

Conjuration
Transmutation
Illusion
Necromancy
Abjuration
Divination
Evocation
Enchantment

Which seems quite accurate.

[sonofzeal]

Conj-Trans

Illu-Necro

Evo-Ench-Abj

Div

-------

Div and Abj would get better marks, except a good Cleric renders both pretty irrelevant. For banning schools, I'd ban one of Illu and Ench (you can make do with either but you only need one), one of Conj and Evo (Conj is certainly better, but Evo can fill basically the same niche if needed), and then Necro or Abj depending if you want extra defense/utility or extra offence.

[Gnaeus]

I think we can agree that whoever thought mage armor belonged in conjuration over Abjurantion was... strange, and it should have been errataed.


The school placements in general are wierd. You will spend hours in a totally different debate if you try to put all the spells where they best fit. Seriously, Magic Missile, Shield, Wall of Force and Mage Armor are all force effects, and should probably be in the same place, not 3 different schools. Dozens of spells should move from Conjuration to Evocation. Why are all emotion spells Enchantment, except for fear which is necromancy? Why is energy in Evocation, except for light, which is illusion?

We can rate the spells as they are placed, or you can make a list of where everything should be, and then we can rate the schools based on that list.

[Darkfire]

Not mind-affecting(in fact, mindless opponents often don't get a save), and the best spells in it affect you, not others. Invisibility, Greater Mirror Image, Displacement, this school does it's best work against Mindblanked opponents.
As much as I like the Illusion school, I remain painfully aware of it's limitations. True Seeing (Clr 5th) ruins damn near everything and a suitably large area effect renders the miss chances moot.

[CockroachTeaParty]

1: Transmutation. I typically ban polymorph and the related spells. This typically drops it down a peg in my games, but by RAW, it is the most powerful school, hands down.

2: Conjuration. Very versatile, arguably even more so than transmutation. It's got transportation, excellent damage, and the best battlefield control money can buy.

3: Abjuration. Yes, it shares many spells with divine casters, but you can never have enough defenses. Dispel Magic, Anticipate Teleportation, Energy Resistance... even spells like Alarm have their place. This school kept our party alive through the Red Hand of Doom campaign, and I doubt we would have lived if we had not had an abjurer in the party.

4: Divination. Again, divine magic shares a great deal of its spells, but if used well, carefully, and often, it provides knowledge. And knowledge is power. However, this school drops significantly (even below evocation), if the DM running the game is loathe to reveal any useful information, or does so little preparation that he simply doesn't know the answers you seek.

5: Necromancy. Useful for debuffing, and creating undead is almost as useful as summoning for things like setting off traps or creating distractions. It's expensive, time consuming, typically frowned upon, and few players and DMs have the patience or know-how to handle lots of undead, though. As good of a school as it is, I rarely see it used to its full potential, and thus it ranks lower on my list.

6: Illusion. Perhaps the best defensive school, and it rewards creativity to no end. However, many things are immune to illusions, and True Seeing and similar spells put an end to it. At high level play, most outsiders, dragons, and intelligent enemies will have access to magic that foils illusions. Much stronger in low to mid-level play.

7: Enchantment. God, I hate this school. Too often have I seen it turn a carefully constructed encounter into a mummer's farce. Personally, I consider the whole enchantment school more evil than necromancy. From a moral standpoint, I often ban the school, since robbing creatures of their ability to think is the foulest of crimes in my eyes. It also rates low due to the large number of things that are immune to it, of course, and in high level play, you're a fool to go into battle without Mind Blank. For all this, it is still a very powerful school, not to be underestimated.

8: Evocation. Yes, it fails to do its job compared to conjuration. If it were not for spell resistance, it would be more useful. Still, it remains a popular school among most of the people I play with.

For fun, I'll rate the Psionic disciplines now.

1: Psychometabolism. Again, metamorphosis and similar powers are too easily abused, just like polymorph and its ilk. Shapechanging aside, the discipline also boasts several extremely useful offensive and defensive buffs, including great powers like Touchsight, Vigor, and Biofeedback. It even has a dash of healing. This discipline is half the reason to play a Psychic Warrior (King of Smack, anyone?). Again, I usually ban or heavily nerf the metamorphosis line, and the discipline then becomes a self-buffing discipline not unlike abjuration. Still, by RAW, probably the most powerful discipline.

2: Psychokinesis. Huh? The psionic equivalent of evocation is in second place? How? Well, psychokinesis is a fantastic discipline. Investing in feats such as Power Penetration (and the improved version) make psions even better at beating SR or PR than arcane casters. The blasting powers of the discipline are versatile, deal more damage, and are a cinch to improve with metapsionic feats. Also, it claims the coveted Dispel Psionics among its powers, alongside a handful of other useful defensive buffs such as Reddopsi, Inertial Armor, and Null Psionics Field. I've seen psychokinesis do some terrifying things in my games, and it is worthy of respect.

3: Clairsentience. Oddly, the psionic equivalent of divination is much more useful than its vancian cousin. Information gathering powers aside, it sports several extremely useful offensive and defensive buffs that can really add some impressive numbers to any manifester. Humble powers such as Offensive and Defensive Precognition just keep getting better as time goes on. If you can handle the XP costs, powers like Metafaculty and Hypercognition can ruin entire plot lines. I'd say this discipline is much more useful at higher levels than at low ones, but still quite useful.

4: Telepathy. This discipline actually does enchantment's job better. Psionic Dominate offers a larger number of viable targets well before Dominate Monster becomes available. Again, Mind Blank shuts it down, but telepathy also includes a little power called Schism, which any psion with half a brain should pick up regardless of their primary discipline. Oddly, telepathy is the home of Personal Mindblank and Mindblank, offering the perfect defense against itself. It also includes very useful powers such as Aura Alteration, Psychic Chirurgery, and Psychic Reformation, doubling the discipline as a sort of healing / support school. A very strong discipline, though it starts to drop dramatically during high-level play.

5: Metacreativity. Strangely, the lowest two disciplines in my opinion are like the conjuration school split in half, and once this happens, they both seem to drop in usefulness. People love Astral Construct, but much like summoning, it requires a great deal of care and devotion to make it useful, especially while your kineticist and telepath buddies are blowing up cities and raping minds with reckless abandon. Strangely, metacreativity shines in antimagic situations. Many of its powers instantaneously create real objects or projectiles that ignore antimagic entirely. Metacreativity also sports very flavorful, if limited, powers like Quintessence, as well as some decent defensive buffs. It's a grab-bag discpline of different stuff, and while useful, the other more focused discplines outshine it in my eyes. Still, it might be my favorite.

6: Psychoportation. Ah, the poor nomad. Yes, this discipline offers useful transportation abilities. It even has a few decent save-or-dies, like Decerebrate. However, this discipline has very few uses during combat. I guess the reason I rate it the lowest is that the Nomad, who focuses on these powers, ultimately becomes useless when everyone else gains access to Greater Teleport. Dimension Door is likewise shared by everyone, making the inclusion of a Nomad in a group a pretty poor choice. However, if you want to do low-level plane hopping, Astral Caravan is the earliest opportunity for a low-level party to go straight to Hell, literally. Also, Mass Time Hop lets you travel TO THE FUTURE!!! Yeah. Sorry, psychoportation, but everyone else is cooler than you.

[Yukitsu]

When you only get one school, illusion is best. It can emulate nearly any other school in the game, and has pretty much every general function in the game.

[Johel]

Frankly, that also depends of the level of your caster.
1st-6th : Conjuration, Enchantment, Illusion.
7th-12th : Conjuration, Illusion, Transmutation.
13th-20th : Transmutation, Conjuration, Illusion.

Transmutation :
While I agree with the "Transmutation is the best" at high levels, it's nearly useless below 6th level, as most effects have a duration linked to the CL.
Fly, Haste and a few others are useful but they just don't last long enough to be worth using at 6th level. After that, however, Transmutation becomes more and more attractive, as duration increases.

Conjuration :
Conjuration allows for all types of spells : utility, damage, transport, protection, you name, it has it.
A Wizard should have as many of them as possible.
A Sorcerer should stick to the spells that aren't [Creation] or [Summoning], though : Shadow Conjuration and its variants can eventually copy all of them, although for higher spell slots but that's not like a Sorcerer will complain about that.

Illusion :
The best friend of Sorcerers.
Can be good for wizards who like to be subtle and sacrifice raw power for versatility. Illusion can do what conjuration and evocation do and yet some more, if only for defense. Phantasmal Killer and the likes suck hard but the rest is just begging you to be creative.

Enchantment :
The fact that mind-affecting spells are blocked by a Protection from X doesn't mean Enchantment is useless. First, most enemies simply aren't spellcasters. Second, at low level, enemy casters can't afford to waste spell slots to buff allies. Third, at high level, enemy casters don't need to waste spell slots to buff allies : they can take care of you themselves.

Necromancy :
Now, it looks fine on paper but beside Enervation, I never found it really useful or badass in practice.
For a themed character, why not ? By the time you reach the 20th level, you can basically wipe a continent in a matter of weeks. But before level 7, you suck hard.

Divination :
Like Necromancy but for utility : lot's spells sound damn cool but in game, you rarely want to waste 1/5 of your spells of a given level for a divination spell, unless you are sure to NOT see actual action. If your DM is cool with it, buy a few wands for the minor divination spells, even if they are custom : this allow you to avoid the "We need divination, we rest for 8 hours" or "we waste 15 minutes for the wizard to overwrite a spellslot".
Sorcerers, avoid this one !!

Abjuration :
Mind Blank. That's what sprung in mind when I think of that school.

Evocation :
Of course, the underdog and it shouldn't be touched with a five-feet pole if you plan to play to raise a character up to the 20th level. If it's a one-shot scenario, though, the spells are damn cool.

[Telonius]

Illusion can be deadly with certain builds. I seem to remember a variant of the Killer Gnome whose Shadow Conjurations ended up doing 100% damage on a failed save, and over 100% if you made the save. (No idea how they got to those stats - probably Shadowcrafter plus some other cheese).

[Eldariel]

Conjuration
Transmutation
Illusion
Abjuration
Divination
Necromancy
Evocation
Enchantment


Should be obvious, really. Two do-it-all schools with tons of insane effects including most of the gamebreakers (they're on the top without them too), the best defensive school, the school that enables actually interacting with magic, the school that means you'll have the right spells prepared, don't get surprised and always find your target, the best offensive/debuff school, the second-best offensive/debuff school, the "I lose to subtypes"-school.

[Severus]

I think enchantment's place on the list depends a _LOT_ on the campaign.

If it's a typical dungeon crawl, it really kinda sucks.

If it has politics, and spying, and that sort of thing, it rocks.


I think its ranking here has more to do with the kind of campaigns people play than its utility.

[aje8]

1/2. Conjuration/Transmutation: Leagues above the rest. Who cares which is better? These schools are just soooooo far above everything else. Transmutation has better 9th and better high levels spells. Even with the overpowered polymorph, Conjuration has much better spells at levels 1-4 or so.

3. Illusion. I really don't get peoples beef with this school. If you pick the right spells it's insane. Minor Image Line, (Greater) Mirror Image and Illusion, Shadow Conjuration and Evocation, Phantasmal Strangler, there are so many good spells! This school takes CLEAR 3rd IMO. People who have illusion low, I STRONGLY disagree.

4. Necromancy: Great debuffs. Enervation. Cone of Exhaustion. Good school.

5. Abjuration: Pulls ahead of Necromancy at higher levels because of stuff like Mindblank and because some of the debuffs lose their luster. Also better if there's no cleric, because someone NEEDS to be able to cast Dispel Magic line. This one is really close to as good as Necromnacy.

6. Enchantment: Will mind affecting save or dies and more will mind-affecting save or dies. It's got some other good spells, but not all that many. This is easily replaced by other schools.

7. Divination: So few spells, and only a few good ones.

8. Evocation: Yeah. Ban it. NOW. Seriously though for Wind Wall and Wall of Force, this could be better than Divination.

[DragoonWraith]

It's amazing how much Enchantment jumps around. Makes complete sense, too - in cases where it is meaningful, it can be dominating (ugh, no pun intended). In others, it can be nice if things aren't immune but they often are so it's better to go with another school.

If you expect to spend a lot of time in a city, especially in campaigns where NPCs are relatively low-level... Enchantment could very quickly jump from worst or second worst to among the best.

[Yukitsu]

I don't think I'd rate transmutation as second when I've got only one school. I can't inform freinds of problems over long distances, I can't teleport at all, I can't get from plane to plane, and I can't get information remotely with that school. Excepting with the use of very high level spells of course. I'd probably swap illusion and transmutation if I only get one school, simply because you've got some serious holes with transmutation that you can't easily fill.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I don't think I'd rate transmutation as second when I've got only one school. I can't inform freinds of problems over long distances, I can't teleport at all, I can't get from plane to plane, and I can't get information remotely with that school. Excepting with the use of very high level spells of course. I'd probably swap illusion and transmutation if I only get one school, simply because you've got some serious holes with transmutation that you can't easily fill.Polymorph can do a lot of those though. You can't Teleport, but you can fly, etc.

[jiriku]

It's amazing how much Enchantment jumps around. Makes complete sense, too - in cases where it is meaningful, it can be dominating (ugh, no pun intended). In others, it can be nice if things aren't immune but they often are so it's better to go with another school.

If you expect to spend a lot of time in a city, especially in campaigns where NPCs are relatively low-level... Enchantment could very quickly jump from worst or second worst to among the best.

That in itself is a measure of the school's lack of power. Everyone can imagine situations where enchantment or necromancy are severely limited. It's even possible to block much of the divination school. But who can think of a common situation where conjuration and transmutation spells are collectively rendered useless?

That having been said, I know that cities in my own campaigns would be dreadfully vulnerable to a determined enchanter. Almost everyone in any given town is a humanoid with a poor Will save, natch.

[Yukitsu]

Polymorph can do a lot of those though. You can't Teleport, but you can fly, etc.

But that's soooooooo slow. :smallsigh:

[Sstoopidtallkid]

That in itself is a measure of the school's lack of power. Everyone can imagine situations where enchantment or necromancy are severely limited. It's even possible to block much of the divination school. But who can think of a common situation where conjuration and transmutation spells are collectively rendered useless?
It's a 4th level spell to block Necro, and one that only lasts 1 min/level. And try finding immunity to "Skeletal Rage Drake: Apply directly to the forehead". Whereas Enchantment is blocked by first level spells, or 3rd level ones that last 10 min/level, and 5 separate types of monsters. Limiting necro is far harder than limiting Enchantment.
That having been said, I know that cities in my own campaigns would be dreadfully vulnerable to a determined enchanter. Almost everyone in any given town is a humanoid with a poor Will save, natch.And none of them can cast? Even if they have no casters, keep in mind how cheap a Prot From Evil constant effect item is. Most nobles should be using one

[mostlyharmful]

Polymorph can do a lot of those though. You can't Teleport, but you can fly, etc.

You can with Shapechange, Planeshift works as an unreliable destination teleport that takes a few turns when you're mimicing a Genie.

[Eldariel]

Enchantment is deadlast 'cause other schools can replicate what it does just fine; that's the danger of narrow focus. Illusion in particular is a big offender with lots of Will-save targeting effects though Transmutation's Slow isn't helping either, and the fact that Transmutation and Abjuration buff far better than Enchantment is the nail in the coffin.

Even in social scenarios, Transmutation can really accomplish much the same as Enchantment, just through less condemnable means (instead of manipulating peoples' minds, you just alter yourself to be more likable). Sure, there's time for that Charm Person and Dominate Monster, but they're so far and few between that Enchantment hurts you least to give up (Evocation has much the same weaknesses, but out-of-core it gets a few very decent spells and getting Contingency on 6 instead of 8 is kinda clutch often; also, Evocation is much more versatile than Enchantment).


Also, Enchantment is too easy to defend from. Protection from Alignment, various Abjurations, any form of mind-affecting immunity, Mind Blank and so on all tend to pretty much completely blank the school; no other school is so vulnerable. Likely anyone worth Dominating is immune (except the Tarrasque).

[Gametime]

Evocation also jumps way up the list if, for whatever bizarre reason, you don't have access to Conjuration spells. Evocation has arguably the second best battlefield control spells, but their effects are done better by Conjuration (which also offers other good spells); if Conjuration doesn't exist, Evocation becomes a lot more attractive for control purposes.

[dyslexicfaser]

Put Evocation above Enchantment and Divination, at least, and I'd rank it above Abjuration and maybe Necromancy, too.

Consider: it's not just blasting spells, though there are plenty of those. For utility and various usefulness: at level one, Tenser's Floating Disk. At 2nd, Force Ladder, Shatter, Gust of Wind. 3rd level: Blacklight, Wind Wall. 4th: Resilient Sphere. 5th: Sending, Mass Fire Shield. 6th: Contingency. 7th: Submerge Ship. 8th: Telekinetic Sphere. 9th: Instant Refuge.

For battlefield control or debuffs: Frost Breath. Warding Hand. Ray of Ice. Great Thunderclap. Ray of the Python. Ice Storm. Crushing Grip. Wall of Ice. Wall of Force. Channelled Sonic Blast. Thunder Field. Howling Chain. Grasping Hand. Forcecage.

And I'm sure there's others.

Sure, if you cherry pick from every other school, you can fill that in. The same is true of every school except conjuration, transmutation and illusion.

[Yukitsu]

The point of enchantment and necromancy is to get other beings to do them for you, hence why I'd keep them above evocation.

[Kroy]

1. Transmutation
1.1. Conjuration
2. Illusion
3. Divination
4. Necromancy
5. Abjuration
6. Enchantment
8. Evocation

[Kurald Galain]

Illusion can be deadly with certain builds. I seem to remember a variant of the Killer Gnome whose Shadow Conjurations ended up doing 100% damage on a failed save, and over 100% if you made the save. (No idea how they got to those stats - probably Shadowcrafter plus some other cheese).

As I recall, you take a spell that is 5% real per caster level, then use a variety of cheese to boost your caster level into orbit.

[Eldariel]

Put Evocation above Enchantment and Divination, at least, and I'd rank it above Abjuration and maybe Necromancy, too.

Above Divination?! Read Magic, Detect Magic, True Strike, Identify, Assay Spell Resistance, True Casting, Locate Object, Chain of Eyes, See Invisibility, Arcane Sight, Unluck, Clairvoyance, Scrying, Arcane Eye, Contact Other Plane, Telepathic Bond, Prying Eyes, True Seeing, Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Scrying, Moment of Prescience, Foresight, Greater Prying Eyes, Discern Location...

Divination may not have broadest focus, but it is an unique, irreplaceable focus. A Wizard without Divination lacks much of what makes Wizards so good in the first place. Sure, you can still be absolute combat monster, but you can no longer locate McGuffins in seconds, figure out the whereabouts of any creature you need to find, see the past, the future or always go first... Oh, and you lose the ability to "autohit" and to ignore spell resistance (yes, you can make do with spell resistance, but if you actually want to kill a creature, taking down the SR is a very good idea).


Otherwise, I agree. Above Enchantment, definitely. Above Divination? Divination is like the most important single school perhaps behind Conjuration and its Teleports, Planar Bindings & BFC.


As I recall, you take a spell that is 5% real per caster level, then use a variety of cheese to boost your caster level into orbit.

No, you take Silent Image and use Heighten Spell + Earth Spell to make it a higher level spell and combine that with the Shadowcraft Mage's inherent ability to make your spells 20% more real. Shadowcrafter can add more if you're into that, or just Incantatrix to get a free +1 level to your Heightens.

[dyslexicfaser]

Can't really argue with that. I'm a huge fan of Prying Eyes myself, even if I never really bother to use Scrying or Locate spells (I'm a 'cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down' sort of wizard, obviously).

[aje8]

Consider: it's not just blasting spells, though there are plenty of those. For utility and various usefulness: at level one, Tenser's Floating Disk. At 2nd, Force Ladder, Shatter, Gust of Wind. 3rd level: Blacklight, Wind Wall. 4th: Resilient Sphere. 5th: Sending, Mass Fire Shield. 6th: Contingency. 7th: Submerge Ship. 8th: Telekinetic Sphere. 9th: Instant Refuge.

Consider: most of those are beaten by other spells (Disk, Black Light) and the higher level ones will just be replicated by Shadow Evocation/Conjuration anyway. You lose almost nothing by banning this school.

This is not true of enchantment, which has the occasional hard to replace spell and is not terrible at the low levels. It's still very bannable, but it's not like all of it's spells can be replicated by illusion anyway.


I don't think I'd rate transmutation as second when I've got only one school. I can't inform freinds of problems over long distances, I can't teleport at all, I can't get from plane to plane, and I can't get information remotely with that school. Excepting with the use of very high level spells of course. I'd probably swap illusion and transmutation if I only get one school, simply because you've got some serious holes with transmutation that you can't easily fill.

Disagree. I'd be find without long distance informing and no telporting/plane hopping. Honestly, I think I'd be just fine using Flight spells to go long distances quickly and owning eveyr combat with my great array of buffs, debuffs and broken. (polymorph line) Seriously, not a big deal.

[sonofzeal]

Consider: most of those are beaten by other spells (Disk, Black Light) and the higher level ones will just be replicated by Shadow Evocation/Conjuration anyway. You lose almost nothing by banning this school.

This is not true of enchantment, which has the occasional hard to replace spell and is not terrible at the low levels. It's still very bannable, but it's not like all of it's spells can be replicated by illusion anyway.
A Shadow Evocation Contingency/Disk/Sending is only useful if you don't auto-disbelieve your own illusions, which is a dubious call by many DMs.

[Gralamin]

People don't give Abjuration enough credit. Yes, it has dispel magic, but it also has a lot of other powerful buffs, and banning it stops you from accessing some of the strongest PRCs in the game. Now, Its definitely not the best school, but still one that is very difficult to replicate if you lost it.
An example of a very good spell that you'd hate to lose: Ray Deflection (Spell Compendium 166). Immunity to a good deal of other wizards tricks? Yes please.

[Edea]

Conjuration
Transmutation
Illusion
Divination
Abjuration
Necromancy
Enchantment
Evocation

[lesser_minion]

I'd put Evocation just above Enchantment - there are good spells in there, and the good spells are a lot more applicable.

That gives you something like:

- Transmutation

- Conjuration

- Illusion

- Necromancy

- Abjuration

- Divination

- Evocation

- Enchantment

I also wouldn't use (or allow) Greater Shadow Evocation: Contingency.

Shadow Tenser's Floating Disk: Objects do not respond to illusions. Congratulations, you burned a 4th-level spell slot to get something 1/5th as effective.

Shadow Wind Wall: All arrows have an 80% chance of penetrating. Once again, they do not respond to illusions.

[aje8]

A Shadow Evocation Contingency/Disk/Sending is only useful if you don't auto-disbelieve your own illusions, which is a dubious call by many DMs.
That wasn't what I was suggesting. Instead of Disk..... well just have a strong fighter. Or use Hoard Gullet. Instead of Contingency, use Craft Contingency. Instead of Black Light, use a Fog spell. I can honestly say I've never cast Sending......

Shadow Evocation was just to cover any other random spells such as say Wall of Force.

[Chrono22]

Transmutation
Conjuration
Evocation
Divination
Abjuration
Illusion
Enchantment
Necromancy

[Thrice Dead Cat]

So, it would appear the general gist is something to the effect of:

1. Transmutation and Conjuration - Both have a lot of tricks by virtue of being able to crack open the monster books for fun and profit. Beyond such abilities, both have some interesting buffs and hard to duplicate abilities. (Telekinesis and Teleportation, for example)

3. Divination - So, you're looking for the prince, eh? Okay, give me a sec. "Woah, didn't realize you were actually seeing him right now Clara. Sorry 'bout that." Oh, anyhow, he's seeing someone in his personal chambers: I recommend waiting about 15 minutes. Oh, and get some resistance to acid before you go.

4. Illusion- This is more my personal place for it, although, when things like True Seeing become common, Illusion does lose a little luster. Arguably it's around the same as the next two in line, but there are so many tricks within the school and within other schools.

5. Abjuration and Necromancy - Yeah, Necromancy is the king of debuffs, but Death Ward does rain on the parade. That's when minions come in into play, which kind of makes Necromancy Conjuration's little brother.

7. Enchantment and Evocation - One suffers from a lot of blanket immunities, the other suffers from blasting largely being ineffective. Even so, for every time I wish I had Tenser's Floating Disk, Hoard Gullet was there to back me up. The utility can simply be found in better places.

EDIT: I will admit, these are how I see them. Enchantment has great debuffs for will saves, but so does necro, and a few others scattered around. The problem is that they're all will save or loses. Conjuration and Transmutation are obvious cats, Illusion grows with creativity and can be a good way to force enemies to waste at least one round. Divination is the enabler for a wizard. The rest I'm too lazy to write more about.

tl;dr, just check the overall lists.

[Temet Nosce]

Transmutation, I would not (oddly enough) rank this so high if it weren't in order of power. However, it has a surplus of spells which are well... I won't use most of them in play they're so bloody strong.

Conjuration, obvious. I'm sure most of the others posters said the same thing, but this school pretty much does it all. In my opinion the true king, because the spells from this school are not so absurd they're basically unusable.

Abjuration, I get a lot of mileage from this one. Maw of Chaos (were you saying something Evocation?), Superior Resistance (why bother buying items?), Anticipate Teleportion, Iron Guard, Dispel line... Really, I just won't ban this. Period.

Enchantment, yeah I'm gonna get some flack for this probably (mind immunity, etc). You know what though? Until mid/high levels I get more use from this school than anything but Conjuration (maybe even more). Charm Person, Sleep, Hideous Laughter, Entice Gift, etc. This school easily has the best low level encounter enders.

Illusion, useful school. Admittedly it's another one which is rendered easily irrelevant at high levels but until then it has a wide range of possible applications. Ranging from the obvious sneaky uses to ability damage, to replicating other schools.

Divination, I'd probably end up banning this school if I could. It has a couple really great spells, but mostly I don't use it. However, I had to admit it does have some effects other schools can't duplicate.

Necromancy, alright it's not a bad school but still... Shivering touch? Similar stuff elsewhere. Debuffs? Elsewhere. Minions? Elsewhere. This school is possible to replicate, pretty much completely (admittedly slightly more difficult than Evocation but still).

Evocation, don't take this. Yes, it has some nice spells but essentially the school whole and entire can easily be replaced elsewhere. Admittedly you may miss the Force spells but even those can be replaced in core (prismatic line).

[tcrudisi]

UNC Chapel Hill Michael Jordan, Phil Ford, James Worthy, Lennie Rosenbluth, Antwan Jamison, Vince Carter, Tyler Hansbrough, Jack Cobb.

Kentucky Currently has more wins than any other university.

UCLA More national championships than any other university. John Wooden.

Kansas

Indiana

.....

Almost everyone else

NJIT They have won one game total in the last two seasons.

Duke Just because I'm a hater. And they cheat (see Jayson Williams).

[Blaine.Bush]

Personally, I would say that Evocation is the best school. Even better than Conjuration. Why waste a round summoning a creature when you could just spend that round blasting? That way you can kill more enemies than if you spent a round summoning a creature instead of just spending that round blasting. Spending a round summoning a creature is definitely a waste of time and is only used for damage-dealing purposes anyways. Why not spend a round blasting instead of spending a round summoning a creature when you could be spending a round blasting instead of summoning a creature? lololol

[Augmented Lurk]

I'd rank Evocation a lot higher than most: Divine Power, Holy Word/Blasphemy, and Miracle are all Evocation.

[Eldariel]

I'd rank Evocation a lot higher than most: Divine Power, Holy Word/Blasphemy, and Miracle are all Evocation.

Clerics don't ban schools as far as I know though.

[Augmented Lurk]

True, but the OP didn't specifically say to rank arcane spell schools in order (spell schools contain divine spells too).

[DragoonWraith]

Spell schools only really matter to Wizards, though. There's a reason no other spell list is divided by school.

[tarbrush]

UNC Chapel Hill Michael Jordan, Phil Ford, James Worthy, Lennie Rosenbluth, Antwan Jamison, Vince Carter, Tyler Hansbrough, Jack Cobb.


UNC gets minus points for Vince Carter. And Tyler Hansbrough.

[Killer Angel]

2: Shadow Evocation/Craft Contingent Spell/etc. You can mimic the good evocation without the schoot, generally to greater effect.

Agree with CCS, but not so much on shadow evocation.
If you don't start with a high level PC, it's painful to wait 4 level to use contingency, only because "it can be replaced with greater SE"...

[Ozymandias9]

Spell schools only really matter to Wizards, though. There's a reason no other spell list is divided by school.


True, but the OP didn't specifically say to rank arcane spell schools in order (spell schools contain divine spells too).


Clerics don't ban schools as far as I know though.

Actually, the question was about a variant sorcerer. Perhaps we should ask the OP to outline the variant more fully: it may make a difference in the answer. In particular, we need to know what kind on non-W/S list spells you have access to (since you said you do) and how difficult it would be to have access to all schools instead of one or two (since you said it was possible).

[warmachine]

How would people answer this question for core only and early to mid levels?

[Optimystik]

How would people answer this question for core only and early to mid levels?

Why core only? The most broken spells from each school (Shapechange, Gate, Time Stop, the Shades line etc.) are in core.

[hamishspence]

Going by the "double-cast = permanent" claim for polymorph any object, it may be more broken than Shapechange.

Especially given tricks like polymorphing a corpse into the corpse of a much more powerful creature, then animating it (objects have no Hit Dice so avoid the 15 Hit Dice cap)

Shapechange has a cap now- according to the Rules Compendium- it has been errataed to maximum 25 Hit Dice. Still pretty easy to break.

[Optimystik]

Going by the "double-cast = permanent" claim for polymorph any object, it may be more broken than Shapechange.

Especially given tricks like polymorphing a corpse into the corpse of a much more powerful creature, then animating it (objects have no Hit Dice so avoid the 15 Hit Dice cap)

Shapechange has a cap now- according to the Rules Compendium- it has been errataed to maximum 25 Hit Dice. Still pretty easy to break.

Even so, PAO is core also. My point is, "core only" seems like a kneejerk that actually hurts the weaker schools in a competition like this more than it helps them.

[Amphetryon]

My ranking and 2cp:
Transmutation: A player that bans this is rarely one that understands how to play casters, let alone play them well.

Conjuration: Exceedingly isolated instances may exist where this is a viable choice. They're out there, but in smaller numbers than the California Condor.

Abjuration: Dispel Magic is vital. If you ban this, make absolutely certain the party has someone who can cast it, and that your other defenses are covered, personally and party-wide.

Illusion: The most common reason I know of to ban Illusion is that the DM's style seriously nerfs its efficacy. Only that DM-dependence keeps it below Abjuration.

Divination: Potentially problematic for similar reasons to the Illusion school, listed above. Not nearly as useful as Illusion in general otherwise, but I believe banning it would be a house-rule.

Necromancy: Solid debuff choices, but fairly limited selection and a wide swath of easily avoidable effects and immune enemies. This one often gets recommended for banning.

Evocation: Blasting is very rarely the best choice for a spellcaster, and in those rare cases, the various Orb of [X] Conjuration spells are almost universally superior. Should see less play than Necromancy unless specific house-rules are in effect.

Enchantment: Yes, it's useful at 1st through 3rd or 4th level. After that, it's largely a waste of space for PCs, who deal with far too many immune enemies to make it worth their while. It's still fun to use for the DM, though. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

Even so, PAO is core also. My point is, "core only" seems like a kneejerk that actually hurts the weaker schools in a competition like this more than it helps them.

Probably.

Just what non-core spells are there, that might overshadow the ones listed?

[DragoonWraith]

The only non-core spells to rival the power of the most powerful core spells, that I am aware of, are the Shivering Touches and the Celerity line.

[Yukitsu]

It seems that most people are still rating these schools based on normal power, but not in their utility when it's your one and only school, which is what the OP really needs.

[Optimystik]

It seems that most people are still rating these schools based on normal power, but not in their utility when it's your one and only school, which is what the OP really needs.

You're forgetting that the list doesn't change much for a utility-focus than for a power-focus. You still get the same schools at the top.

Conjuration - Summon whatever you need to get past a certain obstacle: power and utility.
Transmutation - Turn into whatever you need to get past a certain obstacle: power and utility.
Illusion - Mimic whatever you need to get past a certain obstacle: power and utility.
Abjuration - Negate any magical aspects of the obstacle, and now your fighter buddy can handle it head-on.

So the lists that people are making are still correct.

[Jade_Tarem]

Every round the Wizard spends casting a spell off of the Cleric list, for that round, the Wizard is a chump-TreantMonklvl20

Abjuration has very few good spells that the Cleric or Druid can't do. If you're the only caster, it's vital just for Dispel Magic, but if there's even a single non-sorcerer caster besides you, toss it.

Conj(Beats up the other schools and takes their stuff)
Trans(Reality too confining? Change it)
Illusion(you can't cast if you're dead, and Illusion is better defensively than even Abj)
Necromancy(blocked by some, but some seriously OP effects even ignoring the Wightocalypse)
Div(good, but limited)
Abj
Enchant(everyone is immune)
Evocation("Anything you can do I can do better")

+1, except that I would remove Divination from the tier as the "Wild Card." The usefulness of divination is entirely reliant upon the nature of the party, the campaign, and several other effects. If the plot is straightforward and the group has easy access to information, contacts, civilization's resources, a few magic items that can penetrate illusions, etc., then Divination can take a backseat. If there are gaps in this wonderful support net, though, then Divination quickly becomes increasingly vital.

Divination does take a hit since we're talking about sorcerers, though.

[Teron]

Even so, PAO is core also. My point is, "core only" seems like a kneejerk that actually hurts the weaker schools in a competition like this more than it helps them.
Maybe it's just that warmachine plays low-mid levels, core only, and wants to know how that affects the rankings?

In any case, it doesn't make much of a difference.

As for the OP's situation, where a sorcerer might be restricted to a few schools, it becomes even more important to pick from the top of the list, since versatility is already one of the main factors in the rankings.

[Doc Roc]

<Many Things That Are Right>


Amph is correct on all counts within the limit of my knowledge. Abjuration isn't just dispel magic, in my experience.

[Ponce]

I think a distinction needs to be made between schools that are GOOD TO HAVE and schools that are BAD TO LOSE (both personally and in the party sense).

I think the two lists are rather different, and trying to unify them is probably what is leading to most disagreement here.

Though, obviously, Conjuration and Transmutation dominate both lists.

[Optimystik]

Maybe it's just that warmachine plays low-mid levels, core only, and wants to know how that affects the rankings?

I thought about that, but it seems to me that even then, the rankings still hold. At low and mid levels in core, Transmutation gives you Alter Self, Polymorph, and Flight. Conjuration gives you Dimension Door, Teleport, Solid Fog, Phantom Steed etc. Illusion still has the best combination of defenses and out-of-combat tricks. At those levels, Enchantment is slightly stronger since there are so many less mind-immune enemies, but many of its powerful effects are still defeated by a level 1 abjuration. And Evocation still just blasts. So which schools to keep and which to drop doesn't change much, as you said.

[Flatulous]

Divination is so consistently under-rated it makes me wonder if anyone doing the rating has ever played a wizard that memorized Divination spells.

Divination breaks the game and ends combat before it starts. Divination is consistently the school of spells that puts our DM into fits. I'm not going to assert that it's the most powerful school but I do often think it might be.

[good_lookin_gus]

I've read some comments regarding Enchantment as a debuff school. Looking at the SRD, I'm seeing mostly Save-or-Die (well not quite, Save-or-Really, Really Suck) and Heroism.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Divination is so consistently under-rated it makes me wonder if anyone doing the rating has ever played a wizard that memorized Divination spells.

Divination breaks the game and ends combat before it starts. Divination is consistently the school of spells that puts our DM into fits. I'm not going to assert that it's the most powerful school but I do often think it might be.Memorize Divinations? You mean you don't use the CChamp ACF?

That said, Divination's problem is that it's a support school. You need other schools to utilize it effectively. This situation only allows one school. If he had 3 or 4, that would be different. But then, by our rating, he'd pick up Div by the 4th or 5th school anyways.