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Pika...
2009-11-08, 05:47 PM
So my DM actually approved this character:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/celestialkin/Halfling-Bear.png



But now that the DM boosted him up to 13th level he is an 8th level Rogue. This gives him a +6/+1 Base Attack Bonus. I am still inexperienced with melee classes, so I am not too sure about this means. I am even more confused about how it would work for a creature with four natural attacks (he took the Rapidstrike feat, so his routine is Claw +17/Claw +17/Bite +12/Claw +12).



ps. Also, for all the /b/tards here, I just realized he has a +17 to ranged attacks. What would be fitting for this character to throw or otherwise use as a ranged weapon?

Eldariel
2009-11-08, 05:52 PM
You don't get iteratives on natural attacks normally. Unarmed Strikes are the only exception. And before you ask, yes, you can do primary Unarmed Strikes (provided you have Unarmed Strike) and secondary Natural Attacks, with all Naturals being at -5 without any feats (no penalties on the primary Unarmed Strikes). Multiattack drops that to -2 and Improved Multiattack to -0.

There's a feat called "Rapidstrike" in Draconomicon that enables getting "iteratives" to natural weapon pairs (such as your Claws).


So yeah, your normal attack would be Claw/Claw/Bite. If you somehow acquired Unarmed Strike (such as Monk's Belt, a level of class that progresses Unarmed Progression or such; you need the specific class feature), you could do Unarmed/Unarmed-5/Unarmed-10/Unarmed-15 [Given Enough BAB] // Claw/Claw/Bite.

Djibriel
2009-11-08, 05:57 PM
Net, Lasso, Bolas. Anything for capturing without killing.

ranagrande
2009-11-08, 05:59 PM
Don't forget about your racial hit dice! As an Awakened Bear (Black I'm assuming by the levels) your base attack bonus will be much higher than that.

You will actually be a Magical Beast(Augmented Animal) 5/Rogue 8 with an attack bonus of +11/+6/+1.

As Eldariel said, you normally do not get iterative attacks for natural weapons, but you can take the multiattack feats to get them.

Pika...
2009-11-08, 06:27 PM
You don't get iteratives on natural attacks normally. Unarmed Strikes are the only exception. And before you ask, yes, you can do primary Unarmed Strikes (provided you have Unarmed Strike) and secondary Natural Attacks, with all Naturals being at -5 without any feats (no penalties on the primary Unarmed Strikes). Multiattack drops that to -2 and Improved Multiattack to -0.

There's a feat called "Rapidstrike" in Draconomicon that enables getting "iteratives" to natural weapon pairs (such as your Claws).


So yeah, your normal attack would be Claw/Claw/Bite. If you somehow acquired Unarmed Strike (such as Monk's Belt, a level of class that progresses Unarmed Progression or such; you need the specific class feature), you could do Unarmed/Unarmed-5/Unarmed-10/Unarmed-15 [Given Enough BAB] // Claw/Claw/Bite.


Wow. Thanks for all the useful information!

I am a bit confused on some points, though.

1. I am looking through the SRD for information on Unarmed Strikes, but I can not seem to find the rules saying how many Unarmed Strikes you have. Is it one for fist? Does he get one for having a bite attack as well?

2. I current have 22,000gp to use. Would a Monk's Belt be worth it in this case?

3. If I take the Monk's Belt which of these options would be better in your opinions (I currently have a feat to burn):

a) Taking the Craven Feat (+1 point of damage per Rogue level on sneak attack damages)
x Amount of Unarmed Strike Attacks/Claw +12/Claw +12/Bite +12

b) If I take the Rapidstrike feat for his claws.
x Amount of Unarmed Strike attcks/Claw +12/Claw +12/Bite +12/Extra Rapidstrike Claw attack +(????)


ps. Anyone know if the -5 from Rapidstrike would still apply, or would it just be the basic -5 for now being secondary like the others.

Pika...
2009-11-08, 06:30 PM
Net, Lasso, Bolas. Anything for capturing without killing.

Any of those not require Exotic Weapon Proficiency? :smallbiggrin:

ps. Where are the non-PHB ones located?




Don't forget about your racial hit dice! As an Awakened Bear (Black I'm assuming by the levels) your base attack bonus will be much higher than that.

You will actually be a Magical Beast(Augmented Animal) 5/Rogue 8 with an attack bonus of +11/+6/+1.

As Eldariel said, you normally do not get iterative attacks for natural weapons, but you can take the multiattack feats to get them.

But I thought multiclassing did not stack Base Attack Bonuses for secondary attacks? Does it? Are they kept separate somehow?

And the multiattack feat does that? I thought it merely reduced the penalties for secondary natural weapons.

Glimbur
2009-11-08, 06:40 PM
A net is technically an exotic weapon, but since it's just a touch attack the only real problem non-proficiency gives you is that it takes longer to fold a net. If you just throw one then change to other attacks that's not a problem.

Base Attack Bonus was invented to let fighters attack more than once if they're high level. If you view it from the perspective of a guy with a sword, it's easy. Every time the result of your BAB-5 is more than 0, you get another attack. So BAB +6 is actually +6/1. You stack the BAB from all your classes straight from each class's chart. So a Rogue1/Monk1/Bard1/Cleric1 has a BAB of +0, despite having four levels in 3/4 BAB classes. There is a variant rule that changes this.

Natural attacks are an exception. As Eladriel explained, you generally only get one attack with each natural attack, barring Rapidstrike or shenanigans. Multiattack is a feat for natural weapon users. Normally, secondary natural weapon attacks (which are not related to extra attacks from high BAB) happen with a -5 to hit. It is possible to have secondary natural attacks that have a net +0 or less to hit. Multiattack reduces the penalty for secondary natural attacks to -2.

Krazddndfreek
2009-11-08, 06:40 PM
Use a sling. Just in case you need to hit someone from a distance.

Also, if you can get rapidstrike and the Monk's Belt, there's a feat I think its called Wild Strike that deals natural damage dice as bonus damage dice to your unarmed strikes.

Pika...
2009-11-08, 06:54 PM
A net is technically an exotic weapon, but since it's just a touch attack the only real problem non-proficiency gives you is that it takes longer to fold a net. If you just throw one then change to other attacks that's not a problem.

Base Attack Bonus was invented to let fighters attack more than once if they're high level. If you view it from the perspective of a guy with a sword, it's easy. Every time the result of your BAB-5 is more than 0, you get another attack. So BAB +6 is actually +6/1. You stack the BAB from all your classes straight from each class's chart. So a Rogue1/Monk1/Bard1/Cleric1 has a BAB of +0, despite having four levels in 3/4 BAB classes. There is a variant rule that changes this.

Natural attacks are an exception. As Eladriel explained, you generally only get one attack with each natural attack, barring Rapidstrike or shenanigans. Multiattack is a feat for natural weapon users. Normally, secondary natural weapon attacks (which are not related to extra attacks from high BAB) happen with a -5 to hit. It is possible to have secondary natural attacks that have a net +0 or less to hit. Multiattack reduces the penalty for secondary natural attacks to -2.

I see. I am confused now.

So I would never get extra attacks for natural weapons, but if I get the Monk's Belt would my bear BaB (+5) and Rogue BaB (+6) stack to give my character extra attacks with the Unarmed Strikes granted by the belt?


ps. By the way, would the Monk's Belt prevent the PC from getting AoOs for Unarmed Strikes like a monk as well? I am not sure about this issue.

Eldariel
2009-11-08, 06:59 PM
1. I am looking through the SRD for information on Unarmed Strikes, but I can not seem to find the rules saying how many Unarmed Strikes you have. Is it one for fist? Does he get one for having a bite attack as well?

Unarmed Strike is considered a manufactured weapon. You only have one (it represents your entire body, hence why it can be used with natural attacks; you can do knees or pelvic thrusts as unarmed strikes leaving other limbs free; pelvic thrusts seem appropriate for your character btw), but it gets iteratives like a manufactured weapon. It's basically considered both, a manufactured and a natural weapon depending on which is advantageous. And yeah, you only have 1.


2. I current have 22,000gp to use. Would a Monk's Belt be worth it in this case?

Quite possibly. Getting the UA Strike would add much to your attack routine, especially if you pick Multiattack. Also, Pelvic Thrusts.


3. If I take the Monk's Belt which of these options would be better in your opinions (I currently have a feat to burn):

a) Taking the Craven Feat (+1 point of damage per Rogue level on sneak attack damages)
x Amount of Unarmed Strike Attacks/Claw +12/Claw +12/Bite +12

b) If I take the Rapidstrike feat for his claws.
x Amount of Unarmed Strike attcks/Claw +12/Claw +12/Bite +12/Extra Rapidstrike Claw attack +(????)

ps. Anyone know if the -5 from Rapidstrike would still apply, or would it just be the basic -5 for now being secondary like the others.

Rapidstrike attacks take additional -5 in addition to any normal penalties applied to the weapons you're getting Rapidstrike for. It's basically an iterative for natural weapon, so if you have Rapidstrike: Claw, you attack at Claw-5 with the Rapidstrike attack.

Also, a) would require you to have base Sneak Attack damage in the first place and to qualify for sneak attack. As such, unless you're focused on SAing, I'd suggest against it; Rapidstrike seems better, with Str to add to the deal. If you're going Rogue anyways, Craven is a must.



So I would never get extra attacks for natural weapons, but if I get the Monk's Belt would my bear BaB (+5) and Rogue BaB (+6) stack to give my character extra attacks with the Unarmed Strikes granted by the belt?

All BAB "stacks". That is, whenever you gain BAB from any source, it's always added to your existing BAB and your total BAB determines what iteratives you're entitled to, how much you can Power Attack and so on.


ps. By the way, would the Monk's Belt prevent the PC from getting AoOs for Unarmed Strikes like a monk as well? I am not sure about this issue.

Depends. You can pick up other cheap items for Improved Unarmed Strike to clarify it all though.

icefractal
2009-11-08, 07:14 PM
Since you're a Rogue, I'd go with the Monk's Belt, but I'd also go with Multiattack over Rapidstrike. Compare:

Unarmed +17/+12, Claws +15/+15, Bite +15
Unarmed +17/+12, Claws +12/+12/+7, Bite +12

Unless you're getting some really substantial other bonuses, or abusing Wraithstrike, then the +7 Claw is unlikely to hit, and not worth -3 to your other natural attacks.


This is assuming that your BAB is actually +6/+1, as in, you replaced your Bear levels with Rogue levels, or actually have less than eight Rogue levels. If you're actually a Bear 5/Rogue 8, then you've got a BAB of 11, giving you an extra unarmed strike and making the Monk's belt definitely worth it.

Pika...
2009-11-08, 07:23 PM
Unarmed Strike is considered a manufactured weapon. You only have one (it represents your entire body, hence why it can be used with natural attacks; you can do knees or pelvic thrusts as unarmed strikes leaving other limbs free; pelvic thrusts seem appropriate for your character btw), but it gets iteratives like a manufactured weapon. It's basically considered both, a manufactured and a natural weapon depending on which is advantageous. And yeah, you only have 1.



Quite possibly. Getting the UA Strike would add much to your attack routine, especially if you pick Multiattack. Also, Pelvic Thrusts.



Rapidstrike attacks take additional -5 in addition to any normal penalties applied to the weapons you're getting Rapidstrike for. It's basically an iterative for natural weapon, so if you have Rapidstrike: Claw, you attack at Claw-5 with the Rapidstrike attack.

Also, a) would require you to have base Sneak Attack damage in the first place and to qualify for sneak attack. As such, unless you're focused on SAing, I'd suggest against it; Rapidstrike seems better, with Str to add to the deal. If you're going Rogue anyways, Craven is a must.




All BAB "stacks". That is, whenever you gain BAB from any source, it's always added to your existing BAB and your total BAB determines what iteratives you're entitled to, how much you can Power Attack and so on.



Depends. You can pick up other cheap items for Improved Unarmed Strike to clarify it all though.


Holy crud. This is getting awesome.

So currently I am looking at these options :smalleek::

a) With Rapidstrike:
Unarmed Strike #1 +17 (1d8+4)/Unarmed Strike #2 +12 (1d8+4)/Unarmed Strike #3 +7 (1d8+4)/Claw #1 +12 (1d6+4)/Claw #2 +12 (1d6+4)/Bite #1 +12 (1d6+4)/(Extra) Claw +2 (1d6+4)


b) With Multiattack:
Unarmed Strike #1 +17 (1d8+4)/Unarmed Strike #2 +12 (1d8+4)/Unarmed Strike #3 +7 (1d8+4)/Claw #1 +15 (1d6+4)/Claw #2 +15 (1d6+4)/Bite #1 +15 (1d6+4)


c) With Craven:
Unarmed Strike #1 +17 (1d8+4) +8 damage to all sneak attacks/Unarmed Strike #2 +12 (1d8+4) +8 damage to all sneak attacks/Unarmed Strike #3 +7 (1d8+4) +8 damage to all sneak attacks/Claw #1 +12 (1d6+4)/Claw #2 +12 (1d6+4) +8 damage to all sneak attacks/Bite #1 +12 (1d6+4) +8 damage to all sneak attacks



Notes:
-He has Weapon Finesse.
-His Str Mod is +4
-His Dex mod is +6
-He has +4d6 Sneak Attack Damage, +36 to Hide, and +32 to Move Silently.
-Currently the group is between 12th and 15th levels.
-This is all including the Monk's Belt.
-He is kind of based on Sneak Attacking.
-He is planning on getting a wand of greater invisibility.



So what do you all think?

I am especially wondering if the +6s and possible +2 attacks are kinda pointless at the current levels the group is in. They do not seem like they would be able to hit much.

Eldariel
2009-11-08, 07:47 PM
Multiattack. Right now, the attack bonuses are going to be the biggest thing to improve in your attack run. Next, Craven. Then Rapidstrike.

By the way, the Rapidstrike attack run should be:
Unarmed Strike #1 +17 (1d8+4)/Unarmed Strike #2 +12 (1d8+4)/Unarmed Strike #3 +7 (1d8+4)/Claw #1 +12 (1d6+4)/Claw #2 +12 (1d6+4)/Bite #1 +12 (1d6+4)/(Extra) Claw +7 (1d6+4)

Also, secondary natural attacks apply only half Str, so you'll mostly rely on SA.

The_Snark
2009-11-08, 08:50 PM
... taking the Craven Feat

Are you sure you wouldn't rather make an awakened lion?

Thurbane
2009-11-08, 09:19 PM
The only exception I know of to getting iterative attacks with a natural weapon is the Druid's animal companion (because, yanno, it needed the boost):

Multiattack: An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a 5 penalty.