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Otodetu
2009-11-09, 12:55 PM
Tried the search function a bit before posting.

Looking for game-play balance answers here.

1.
Umm, looking at the tower shield entry i find it hard to figure out what sort of action taking full cover from the world is...

2.
If you trip a flying creature, what is supposed to happen, and why?
Resolved.

Johel
2009-11-09, 01:07 PM
Maybe the tripper targets the wings rather than the legs ?
Of course, creatures who fly because of magic might be impossible to trip then.

Or maybe is it simply that the tripper grabs whatever he can and swings you down, making you fall for a few meters rather than going splat on the ground ?

Milskidasith
2009-11-09, 01:08 PM
Tried the search function a bit before posting.

Looking for game-play balance answers here.

1.
If you trip a flying creature, what is supposed to happen, and why?

As a dm i allowed tripping to pull down flying creatures from the sky, after some persuasion from my players that is.
When some genie tripped the crusaders flying mount some time later i was surprised at how effective a way this was of getting fliers out of the way.

Tripping a creature causes them to become prone. This has little to no effect while you are in the air; a prone biplane, for instance, is just one flying upside down. Then again, that's more RAMS than RAW.


2.
Tower shields and following targets; is it any reason to not allow a character to "follow" a enemy with his shield, so as to benefit from full cover even if the enemy moves to get in a more advantageous position?

Unless you use the facing rules, that's how it works anyway; a tower shield provides total cover from all foes. The annoying problem that you can hide behind a tower shield with a hide check, which also conceals your equipment, including the tower shield, is another issue.

Aron Times
2009-11-09, 01:17 PM
In 4e, any attack that knocks a flying creature prone causes it to crash. If it's at a high enough altitude, it might be able to stop itself from falling (DM's discretion), but in most cases it will crash and take falling damage.

I suspect this rule exists to give earthbound parties a chance against flying opponents. In 3.5, flying creatures could attack those on the ground with relative impunity (Protection from Arrows comes to mind).

jiriku
2009-11-09, 01:24 PM
1. A "trip" as most people understand the concept consists of separating an individual's legs from the ground, so that the action of gravity causes that indivual to fall. Since a flying creature's legs are not supporting it, and its method of flying is already counteracting gravity, tripping it would be useless, unless you simply meant to annoy the creature.

However, from a game balance perspective, the classes that are likely to make a trip attempt instead of, say, casting disintigrate tend to be weaker classes, so you wouldn't harm game balance by allowing a character to use trip mechanics to interfer with the wing action of winged creatures. This would likely cause the creature to lose altitude, and the plummeting creature could probably spend a move action to regain control of its flight (sort of the aerial equivalent of the "stand from prone" action). Of course, the question is, how far does the creature fall before it has a chance to recover? A simple rule of thumb might be that creatures with perfect maneuverability fall five feet before automatically recovering control, while others fall at standard falling speeds.

2. In 3.5 D&D, character's don't have a facing; they're assumed to be little Heisenberg particles whizzing about in their five-foot squares, and you can't simulataneously know where one is facing and act against it. Thus, the character covering behind the tower shield is assumed to be facing in whatever position is most advantageous for him. He can benefit from the cover provided by the tower shield even if he is attacked from several directions in the same round. Imagine a warrior looking about and carefully assessing all threats, then expertly shifting the shield back and forth to block each attack in turn.

This might seem a tad superheroic to you, but again, from a game balance perspective, the fellow who is likely to hunker down behind a tower shield instead of, say, casting swift etherealness is probably playing one of the weaker classes, so allowing him to get full cover while sacrificing his turn is hardly disruptive of game balance.

tl;dr Yeah, trip and block.

ghashxx
2009-11-09, 01:25 PM
With the tripping a flying creature, you obviously have to be able to reach the flying creature. So this would mean either the flier is within melee range, or the character has pulled out a reach weapon thereby placing it in melee range. After that I think it becomes more a DM discretion question. If a person is using a long spear, then it really wouldn't make sense to be able to trip at a distance. With a net or spiked chain or anything that lets you trip at range. The net has its own rules on controlling a creature, but now you have to include the 3D component as well. With the tripping at range and in the sky then the tripper having multiple legs or being a dwarf shouldn't matter at all. However the trippee having multiple wings should count...although I don't think anything has multiple wings. Anyhoo, if the tripper wins the trip attempt then allow him to successfully drag the flier out of the air. Maybe include some kind of scaled success factor so if the tripper succeeds by 10 or more then he has actually made the flier fall out of the air = prone.

As to the tower shield dude. Yeah it is legal and all that even though it's really annoying to deal with. My answer to that if I ever run into it is that while the fighter does get full cover, that also inhibits his ability to see everything going on resulting in a bonus to any hide checks that are being made. This results in (probably) no boosts to the already nasty spellcasters, and introduces new tactical possibilities for how the fighter uses his shield and how rogues etc respond to the presence of a tower shield.

Otodetu
2009-11-09, 01:44 PM
Unless you use the facing rules, that's how it works anyway; a tower shield provides total cover from all foes. The annoying problem that you can hide behind a tower shield with a hide check, which also conceals your equipment, including the tower shield, is another issue.

Wow, i guess i failed at seeing that, been using the old 3.0 tower shield rules or something...

Not that our group have had that many martial characters.

Iku Rex
2009-11-09, 01:45 PM
"Rules of the Game" has rules for tripping flyers.


Tripping Flyers: A creature flying with wings can be tripped. If the attempt succeeds, the creature stalls and falls 150 feet. See Rules of the Game: All About Movement for details (and a few unofficial additional rules about tripping flying creatures).

Creatures that fly without wings (and any creature with perfect maneuverability) can't be tripped while flying. If the creature is still in the air after stalling, it must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover and resume flying. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it lands prone and takes falling damage. All About Trip Attacks (Part Two) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a)




Trip

Most creature using wings or other appendages to fly can be tripped. Incorporeal creatures with perfect maneuverability, and creatures that don't rely on their limbs to fly cannot be tripped when in flight.

Resolving the Trip Attempt: The attacker makes a Strength check. The defender can oppose the attempt with a Strength check or a Dexterity check. Each creature gets a bonus based on its maneuverability rating, as follows: perfect +12, good maneuverability +8, average +4, poor +0, clumsy -4.

Stability bonuses do not apply in aerial overruns.

Trip Results: A successful trip forces the defender to stall (even if the tripped creature doesn't have a minimum forward speed) rather than knocking the defender prone. All About Movement (Part Five) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a)

Fax Celestis
2009-11-09, 01:51 PM
Tripping a creature causes them to become prone. This has little to no effect while you are in the air; a prone biplane, for instance, is just one flying upside down. Then again, that's more RAMS than RAW.

That's not true.


Tripping Flyers: A creature flying with wings can be tripped. If the attempt succeeds, the creature stalls and falls 150 feet. See Rules of the Game: All About Movement for details (and a few unofficial additional rules about tripping flying creatures).

Creatures that fly without wings (and any creature with perfect maneuverability) can't be tripped while flying. If the creature is still in the air after stalling, it must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover and resume flying. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it lands prone and takes falling damage.

From here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a).


Trip

Most creature using wings or other appendages to fly can be tripped. Incorporeal creatures with perfect maneuverability, and creatures that don't rely on their limbs to fly cannot be tripped when in flight.

Resolving the Trip Attempt: The attacker makes a Strength check. The defender can oppose the attempt with a Strength check or a Dexterity check. Each creature gets a bonus based on its maneuverability rating, as follows: perfect +12, good maneuverability +8, average +4, poor +0, clumsy -4.

Stability bonuses do not apply in aerial overruns.

Trip Results: A successful trip forces the defender to stall (even if the tripped creature doesn't have a minimum forward speed) rather than knocking the defender prone.

From here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a).

Animefunkmaster
2009-11-09, 01:51 PM
Being tripped makes you prone. Who can be tripped?
Beholders? Gelatinous cubes? What effect does tripping
have on these creatures? Can a prone character be tripped
again? What about flying and swimming creatures? Many
creatures have neither legs nor any relationship to the
ground or gravity. How does tripping affect them?
Anything using limbs for locomotion can be tripped.
Things that donít need limbs for locomotion canít be tripped.
You canít trip a snake, a beholder, or a gelatinous cube. You
wonít find this in the rules, but then it really doesnít need to be
in thereóthe rules can leave some things to the DMís common
sense.
A creature flying with wings can be ďtripped,Ē in which
case the creature stalls (see Tactical Aerial Movement on page
20 of the DMG). You canít make an incorporeal creature fall
down. You also canít trip a prone creature.
Creatures canít be tripped when theyíre swimming (the
water holds them up). Likewise, a burrowing creature is driving
its body through a fairly solid medium that serves to hold it up.


From Rules of the Game: All About Trip Attacks 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a)

Tripping Flyers: A creature flying with wings can be tripped. If the attempt succeeds, the creature stalls and falls 150 feet. See Rules of the Game: All About Movement for details (and a few unofficial additional rules about tripping flying creatures).

Creatures that fly without wings (and any creature with perfect maneuverability) can't be tripped while flying. If the creature is still in the air after stalling, it must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover and resume flying. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it lands prone and takes falling damage.

Edit: Golly Ninja's everywhere.

Otodetu
2009-11-09, 02:01 PM
"Rules of the Game" has rules for tripping flyers.

This is what is was looking for; one INTERNET to you good sir.

hamishspence
2009-11-09, 02:46 PM
If it has wings, the trip can be rationalized as smacking the wing in such a way as to compromise the flight surfaces and cause a stall.

If it doesn't, it more likely than not has perfect manuverability (what exceptions are there?)

Optimystik
2009-11-09, 02:50 PM
I'm actually glad for this thread, because I've been idly wondering if a Howling Chain (SpC) could be used to interfere with a flyer. Sadly, it doesn't seem like I can stop ghosts from moving with it :smallfrown:

jiriku
2009-11-09, 02:53 PM
This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so.

Offhand I'd see two possible interpretations:
1. You give up your attacks, which means covering behind a tower shield is a standard action.

2. You give up your attacks only because you've broken line of effect to anyone you might attack. Covering is no action at all.

My money is on option 1.

Otodetu
2009-11-09, 03:08 PM
This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so.

Offhand I'd see two possible interpretations:
1. You give up your attacks, which means covering behind a tower shield is a standard action.

2. You give up your attacks only because you've broken line of effect to anyone you might attack. Covering is no action at all.

My money is on option 1.

Sounds reasonable, as you are after all benefiting from total cover from every conceivable angle.

Tokiko Mima
2009-11-09, 04:23 PM
This air tripping kinda makes warlocks with Fell Flight and Repelling Blast invocations into air superiority fighters, doesn't it? :smallbiggrin:

As for the question on tower shields, RAW declaring that your tower shield is total cover is a free action (so you can only do it on your turn, like Dodge), but it means you cannot attack or full attack. RAI it's probably a standard action, because otherwise you could cast spells, but it shouldn't restrict your movement.


Shield, Tower (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#shieldTower)

This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.