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Hadessniper
2009-11-09, 07:14 PM
Reincarnate Transmutation
Level: Drd 4
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)


With this spell, you bring back a dead creature in another body, provided that its death occurred no more than one week before the casting of the spell and the subject’s soul is free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.

Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired. The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand. This process takes 1 hour to complete. When the body is ready, the subject is reincarnated.

A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1. If the subject was 1st level, its new Constitution score is reduced by 2. (If this reduction would put its Con at 0 or lower, it can’t be reincarnated). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means.

It’s possible for the change in the subject’s ability scores to make it difficult for it to pursue its previous character class. If this is the case, the subject is well advised to become a multiclass character.

For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the following table. For nonhumanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created.

A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be returned to life by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be reincarnated. The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age.
d% Incarnation Str Dex Con
01 Bugbear +4 +2 +2
02–13 Dwarf +0 +0 +2
14–25 Elf +0 +2 –2
26 Gnoll +4 +0 +2
27–38 Gnome –2 +0 +2
39–42 Goblin –2 +2 +0
43–52 Half-elf +0 +0 +0
53–62 Half-orc +2 +0 +0
63–74 Halfling –2 +2 +0
75–89 Human +0 +0 +0
90–93 Kobold –4 +2 –2
94 Lizardfolk +2 +0 +2
95–98 Orc +4 +0 +0
99 Troglodyte +0 –2 +4
100 Other

The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn’t automatically speak the language of the new form.

A wish or a miracle spell can restore a reincarnated character to his or her original form.

Material Component: Rare oils and unguents worth a total of least 1,000 gp, spread over the remains.
By RAW isn't reincarnate a viable option for immortality? You should be able to age until venerable, get the mental bonuses that goes with that, off your self before dieing of old age, and have a party member or cohort reincarnate you back as a young adult of a new race. If you start as a human you get your bonus feat, skill points, and the benefit of racial bonuses. Or if you add a wish to the deal you can stay the same race just in a new younger body.

A party with two druids can effectively reach immortality at 7th level, I can't think of a faster or cheaper way to achieve it.

Woodsman
2009-11-09, 07:15 PM
By RAW, it is.

If you die of old age, though, then you have a problem.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-09, 07:15 PM
Druid lynch mob comes with some vague excuse about "unnatural" and screws you over.

Sallera
2009-11-09, 07:18 PM
Nah, not druid lynch mobs, just Maruts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut).

tyckspoon
2009-11-09, 07:19 PM
By RAW, it is.

If you die of old age, though, then you have a problem.

The only time that should ever be a pressing problem is if you manage to somehow reincarnate as a fruit fly.

Woodsman
2009-11-09, 07:20 PM
The only time that should ever be a pressing problem is if you manage to somehow reincarnate as a fruit fly.

You wouldn't be able to cast the spell anyway.

Unless you have Natural Spell.

Unless your DM banned it.

Hadessniper
2009-11-09, 07:22 PM
You wouldn't be able to cast the spell anyway.

Unless you have Natural Spell.

Unless your DM banned it.

The person who cast the spell on you smashes you and casts again.

Assassin89
2009-11-09, 07:22 PM
Druid lynch mob comes with some vague excuse about "unnatural" and screws you over.

That is assuming that a Marut death squad does not arrive first to end your attempt to avoid the grave.

That or both groups arrive and work together.

Woodsman
2009-11-09, 07:23 PM
The person who cast the spell on you smashes you and casts again.

Unless they ended up as a fruit fly as well.

Hadessniper
2009-11-09, 07:26 PM
That is assuming that a Marut death squad does not arrive first to end your attempt to avoid the grave.

That or both groups arrive and work together.

They are a solitary CR 15 chances are any party using this will be able to handle them easily.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-09, 07:30 PM
They are a solitary CR 15


A party with two druids can effectively reach immortality at 7th level,

lolwut

Less snarkily, that's why I suggested a druidic mob. More flexible than the marut's listing.

The fastest way is to become a Necropolitan, as per Libris Mortis. Can be engaged as early as levels 2-3.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-09, 07:31 PM
Couldn't you just become an Elan at 1st?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-09, 07:34 PM
That is indeterminably expensive, and may not satisfy the "cheapest" part.

Hazkali
2009-11-09, 07:37 PM
I suppose the Marut's intervention would depend on how often you were Reincarnating. I don't have access to any books at the moment but let's say for point of argument that if you lived a nonviolent life that you could get about 100 years out of one Reincarnate. One 4th level spell every hundred years probably isn't going to cause much of a blip on the radar.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-09, 07:40 PM
Why don't all Liches get mauled by Maruts?

Sallera
2009-11-09, 07:42 PM
I don't think undead register to them. Otherwise there wouldn't be many left. :smalltongue: Might be they don't go after anything that's naturally immortal, else they'd be smacking elans and suchlike too.

Hadessniper
2009-11-09, 07:43 PM
let's say for point of argument that if you lived a nonviolent life that you could get about 100 years out of one Reincarnate. One 4th level spell every hundred years probably isn't going to cause much of a blip on the radar.

Even in you lived a violent life you can use Resurrection without attracting the Marut's attention, until you start getting to the old age penalties there is really no reason to use Reincarnate.

taltamir
2009-11-09, 07:48 PM
it must be obscene disregard to death before a marut comes...
And why would the other druid be a fruit fly as well? you stagger the attempts.

I am more concerned about the level loss.

Also, if you are lucky, you reincarnate as an elf...

Starbuck_II
2009-11-09, 07:49 PM
Why aren't you casting Last Breath then taltamir? It has no level loss, but must be made within 1 round of death.
But other than that Reincarnate spell.

taltamir
2009-11-09, 07:52 PM
Why aren't you casting Last Breath then taltamir? It has no level loss, but must be made within 1 round of death.
But other than that Reincarnate spell.

Does last breath reset your age like reincarnate does? if so, it is the better spell.

Hadessniper
2009-11-09, 07:57 PM
Hell if it where just druids doing this they could just use their 'A Thousand Faces' class ability and look the same after they come back.

taltamir
2009-11-09, 07:57 PM
or wear a hat of disguise :).

Radiun
2009-11-09, 07:59 PM
Start flying, sell the Marut's corpse / full-plate, buy another reincarnation

Hadessniper
2009-11-09, 08:01 PM
Start flying, sell the Marut's corpse / full-plate, buy another reincarnation

Wow you can fund your immortality with the corpses of Maruts attacking you for being immortal. That is the coolest thing ever.

taltamir
2009-11-09, 08:10 PM
Wow you can fund your immortality with the corpses of Maruts attacking you for being immortal. That is the coolest thing ever.

also, you gain XP from killing them... specialize in killing maruts.

Zeful
2009-11-09, 08:13 PM
I suppose the Marut's intervention would depend on how often you were Reincarnating. I don't have access to any books at the moment but let's say for point of argument that if you lived a nonviolent life that you could get about 100 years out of one Reincarnate. One 4th level spell every hundred years probably isn't going to cause much of a blip on the radar.

Yes it is, Maruts hunt those that deny death. Even if you are casting one 4th level spell every hundred years, you are still denying death, you will still be targeted, and once you are identified you will be hunted until your eventual extermination. If you manage to survive long enough Zelekhuts, who hunt those who deny justice (and to Mechanus, who build them, you are), will join them.

Mando Knight
2009-11-09, 08:15 PM
also, you gain XP from killing them... specialize in killing maruts.

Oooh... Take a couple levels of Ranger for Favored Enemy (Construct)...

Hadessniper
2009-11-09, 08:17 PM
Yes it is, Maruts hunt those that deny death. Even if you are casting one 4th level spell every hundred years, you are still denying death, you will still be targeted, and once you are identified you will be hunted until your eventual extermination. If you manage to survive long enough Zelekhuts, who hunt those who deny justice (and to Mechanus, who build them, you are), will join them.

So a 80 year old human who was killed and has Reincarnation cast on him would bring down the wrath of a Marut? How about a 70 year old, or a 60 year old. If a 30 year old gets it cast on him he is technically gaining extra years he needs to be smitten...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-09, 08:35 PM
Yes it is, Maruts hunt those that deny death. Even if you are casting one 4th level spell every hundred years, you are still denying death, you will still be targeted, and once you are identified you will be hunted until your eventual extermination. If you manage to survive long enough Zelekhuts, who hunt those who deny justice (and to Mechanus, who build them, you are), will join them.Yeah, they hunt down all of those. Other than, of course, Liches, Elans, Warforged, undead, Green Spice Addicts, Dragonwrought Kobolds, Elemental Savants, and any of a number of other races I'm forgetting.

Zeful
2009-11-09, 08:48 PM
So a 80 year old human who was killed and has Reincarnation cast on him would bring down the wrath of a Marut? How about a 70 year old, or a 60 year old. If a 30 year old gets it cast on him he is technically gaining extra years he needs to be smitten...

There is a vast difference between using Reincarnation for functional immortality, and using it to revive yourself from death with no other option available.

Besides, Inevitables don't have very good informational gathering SLAs. So the longer you live the closer to 100% detection the situation becomes.


Yeah, they hunt down all of those. Other than, of course, Liches, Elans, Warforged, undead, Green Spice Addicts, Dragonwrought Kobolds, Elemental Savants, and any of a number of other races I'm forgetting.Warforged do not age, and Undead aren't alive. They don't qualify. Besides, Mecahnus is an infinite plane, so there are an infinite number of Maruts. So they are perfectly capable of hunting down two druids who keep reincarnating each other along with anybody else they can find.

Hadessniper
2009-11-09, 08:54 PM
So you should get the first reincarnation without attracting him. That would mean a human would have something like 115 years to level to beat a CR 15, much much longer if you start as an elf or get elf on your first reincarnation.

taltamir
2009-11-09, 09:08 PM
Yeah, they hunt down all of those. Other than, of course, Liches, Elans, Warforged, undead, Green Spice Addicts, Dragonwrought Kobolds, Elemental Savants, and any of a number of other races I'm forgetting.

that... if there is even one lich in your world, it is a higher priority target then you are. at least at first.

nhbdy
2009-11-09, 09:39 PM
So you should get the first reincarnation without attracting him. That would mean a human would have something like 115 years to level to beat a CR 15, much much longer if you start as an elf or get elf on your first reincarnation.

you assume they would only send one, I'm sure that they would be smart enough to send enough to be sure that the job is done.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-09, 09:39 PM
you assume they would only send one, I'm sure that they would be smart enough to send enough to be sure that the job is done.

We're just using the MM entry, which bizarrely specifies "solitary" for a marut's organization.

nhbdy
2009-11-09, 09:46 PM
We're just using the MM entry, which bizarrely specifies "solitary" for a marut's organization.

and who says they can't learn when their solo agent fails? I mean they have intelligence, and even an average person know that when one fails, you can always send more...

Hadessniper
2009-11-09, 10:25 PM
It says in the MM that "Those who use magic to reverse death (raise dead spells, for example) aren't worthy of a Marut's attention unless they do so repeatedly or on a massive scale." You would be very small fries for at least 5 reincarnations. Also technically you aren't coming back from the dead per se you are moving the soul to a new body formed from nature, so I would say that would slow the Marut's down from taking interest in you.

Raewyn
2009-11-09, 10:31 PM
Those who use magic to reverse death aren’t worthy of a marut’s attention unless they do so repeatedly or on a massive scale.

Seems to me like the Reincarnate thing wouldn't bring down the lightning fist of the marut... until the nth time you brought yourself back to life. Not sure what exactly n would be - it never specifies exactly how long you have to defy the grave before the inevitables get irked.

Random832
2009-11-09, 10:39 PM
Warforged do not age, and Undead aren't alive. They don't qualify. Besides, Mecahnus is an infinite plane, so there are an infinite number of Maruts. So they are perfectly capable of hunting down two druids who keep reincarnating each other along with anybody else they can find.

The point is that when WOTC persists in publishing the fact that death is not law in most campaign settings, the Maruts have nothing to enforce.

Hadessniper
2009-11-09, 10:39 PM
They aren't all knowing. They would have to notice that you where coming back to life every 60-500 years. Coming back as a different race or a completely different looking member of the same race would make that harder to notice. You could easily do this for millennia with out people catching on. To get one sent after you personalty from their plane you would have to be a major offender and I don't see that happening for at least 5 reincarnations.

Dracomorph
2009-11-09, 10:42 PM
Who says my cosmology even has to have Maruts? I always thought they were kind of silly.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-09, 10:48 PM
you assume they would only send one, I'm sure that they would be smart enough to send enough to be sure that the job is done.Silly inevitables. Reincarnate tricks are for druids. He'll trounce all y'all. And his little dog, too.

Zeful
2009-11-09, 10:55 PM
The point is that when WOTC persists in publishing the fact that death is not law in most campaign settings, the Maruts have nothing to enforce.

That makes no sense. You provide a bunch of exceptions (which in comparison to what can die, is absolutely miniscule) to say that death is not a law? Most settings have a God of Death, do they not? No one can just stand up after death (and to forstal any statements to the contrary, your subdual damage is equal to or greater than your HP, making you unconscious, you can't just stand up), and once you are dead it takes powerful magic and expensive components to reverse the process, and you still lose out.

So yes, death is Law.

Hadessniper
2009-11-09, 10:59 PM
So yes, death is Law.
Come on, everyone knows that after 10th level death is only for NPC's and PC's to bored with their characters to badger the party into raising them.

Bogardan_Mage
2009-11-09, 11:34 PM
That makes no sense. You provide a bunch of exceptions (which in comparison to what can die, is absolutely miniscule) to say that death is not a law? Most settings have a God of Death, do they not? No one can just stand up after death (and to forstal any statements to the contrary, your subdual damage is equal to or greater than your HP, making you unconscious, you can't just stand up), and once you are dead it takes powerful magic and expensive components to reverse the process, and you still lose out.

So yes, death is Law.
Death is Law, but you can avoid it if you pay enough money.

What a very interesting piece of social commentary.

Optimystik
2009-11-09, 11:46 PM
I'm a big fan of "throw Mechanus at the PCs" if they try crap like this.

Yes, the whole plane. It's made up of gears and machinery. Have all the inevitables slot themselves in where appropriate and power the whole fershlugginer thing up to mow down the erstwhile immortality-seekers.

MCerberus
2009-11-09, 11:54 PM
The whole thing with inevitables is that they're either plot related or "I told you not to." You can't say that a lich is a bigger target on the radar (universal forces seem to deal with them anyway, like sending adventurers to loot their fortress) because your DM said no and you did it anyway. It's a more elegant way of having rocks fall on two level 7 druids that have earned your ire.


Hell, they come with specific abilities for when players stop trying to screw up the multiverse.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-09, 11:56 PM
I'm a big fan of "throw Mechanus at the PCs" if they try crap like this.

Yes, the whole plane. It's made up of gears and machinery. Have all the inevitables slot themselves in where appropriate and power the whole fershlugginer thing up to mow down the erstwhile immortality-seekers.Because Immortality is so OP. These guys burn a level each time, for a gain that matters to no campaigns I've ever been in. Who cares?

Optimystik
2009-11-09, 11:58 PM
Because Immortality is so OP. These guys burn a level each time, for a gain that matters to no campaigns I've ever been in. Who cares?

I should have been more clear; I was specifically referring to the ones that start slaughtering Maruts to keep their game going.

Even if they did burn a level each time; how many levels can one gain in a lifetime? Losing one to keep it going is not much of a payment.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-10, 12:02 AM
So yes, death is Law.
You're a tier 1 character; it's more of a suggestion, really.

And Laws were meant to be broken.

MCerberus
2009-11-10, 12:03 AM
I should have been more clear; I was specifically referring to the ones that start slaughtering Maruts to keep their game going.

Even if they did burn a level each time; how many levels can one gain in a lifetime? Losing one to keep it going is not much of a payment.

and that's about the time We Jas, Hades, Campaign specific death god #130 get involved in a more meaningful way than a form letter to Mechanus.

edit to address the point coming up here: If it escalates like this, it makes old age death really minor for the time being. Plot hook. Resolving it can lead to a lot of ways to give the death-cheaters their desserts, possible ascension, or generally retire the character after a last hurrah.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-10, 12:04 AM
I should have been more clear; I was specifically referring to the ones that start slaughtering Maruts to keep their game going.

Even if they did burn a level each time; how many levels can one gain in a lifetime? Losing one to keep it going is not much of a payment.That strikes me as a failure for a DM. If the game is going on long enough for immortality to matter, there should be a lot more happening than 'the fact that you're still alive has annoyed the gods, roll initiative'.

AstralFire
2009-11-10, 12:06 AM
That strikes me as a failure for a DM. If the game is going on long enough for immortality to matter, there should be a lot more happening than 'the fact that you're still alive has annoyed the gods, roll initiative'.

I have to agree.

Hadessniper
2009-11-10, 12:06 AM
So if you were to get to venerable twice would you get the bonuses to your mental stats twice, would they stack?

Milskidasith
2009-11-10, 12:12 AM
Bonuses from the same source do not stack, so no, venerable would not give you more bonuses.

Optimystik
2009-11-10, 12:34 AM
That strikes me as a failure for a DM. If the game is going on long enough for immortality to matter, there should be a lot more happening than 'the fact that you're still alive has annoyed the gods, roll initiative'.

Still not clear enough; "their game" meant the hypothetical intentions of two such druids, not the actual game of Dungeons and Dragons.

Yay, ambiguity...

Bogardan_Mage
2009-11-12, 12:02 AM
Bonuses from the same source do not stack, so no, venerable would not give you more bonuses.
But you do keep them after reincarnation, even though you're no longer venerable, right?

Zeful
2009-11-12, 12:18 AM
But you do keep them after reincarnation, even though you're no longer venerable, right?

You can read Reincarnate/the aging rules in that fashion, yes. But you can also read it as a series of If/Else statements as well, making them go away with reincarnation.

There is no real defined answer either way.

tyckspoon
2009-11-12, 12:19 AM
So if you were to get to venerable twice would you get the bonuses to your mental stats twice, would they stack?

Only if you're willing to risk having your DM retain and stack the physical modifiers as well. The same reasoning applies to both the mental and physical modifiers (to wit, they're not 'bonuses' any more than the attribute boosts you get every 4 levels are- you don't write "age bonus +3" on your character sheet. They're direct changes to your base stats, which are retained through Reincarnation- only your physical racial modifiers are adjusted. It would be easier to raise your stats by attempting to abuse some of the wording and the table layouts to claim that you got the bonus stat point again every time you hit 4th/8th/etc level, and then get yourself killed and raised to repeatedly get that level.)

Zeful
2009-11-12, 12:36 AM
Actually part and parcel of being revived and losing a level is clearly spelled out in the rules, you lose everything relating to that level and once you level up again, you have to choose all over again.

deuxhero
2009-11-12, 12:42 AM
They target those who use "unnatural means" to do so. Something tells me Druid is not "unnatural".

Jergmo
2009-11-12, 01:00 AM
I'm a big fan of "throw Mechanus at the PCs" if they try crap like this.

Yes, the whole plane. It's made up of gears and machinery. Have all the inevitables slot themselves in where appropriate and power the whole fershlugginer thing up to mow down the erstwhile immortality-seekers.

How about a bunch of this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKZZEPoVb4c):smallamused:

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-12, 07:02 AM
I'm a big fan of "throw Mechanus at the PCs" if they try crap like this.

Yes, the whole plane. It's made up of gears and machinery. Have all the inevitables slot themselves in where appropriate and power the whole fershlugginer thing up to mow down the erstwhile immortality-seekers.

Reflex halves?

Tyndmyr
2009-11-12, 09:59 AM
Warforged do not age, and Undead aren't alive. They don't qualify. Besides, Mecahnus is an infinite plane, so there are an infinite number of Maruts.

That does not follow. Simply because a plane is infinite does not mean that one of it's inhabitant races is infinite.

Quite a few planes are infinite in D&D, and while some inhabitant types are infinite, it's certain that not all are.

Optimystik
2009-11-12, 10:05 AM
They target those who use "unnatural means" to do so. Something tells me Druid is not "unnatural".

Yes, but would a natural Druid even try to seek immortality? This falls pretty clearly under "abuse of power" to me - just because you can do something, doesn't mean you're supposed to.

Mark Hall
2009-11-12, 10:28 AM
Nah, not druid lynch mobs, just Maruts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut).

I'm not so sure about that. You are, after all, demonstrably dying. You can sometimes even point to chunks of the corpse and say "Look. There's my old head. I wouldn't very well be wandering about without that, would I?" Furthermore, as a divine spell, it is, on some level, sanctioned by a deity... who can grant you immortality if they like.

Optimystik
2009-11-12, 10:37 AM
I'm not so sure about that. You are, after all, demonstrably dying. You can sometimes even point to chunks of the corpse and say "Look. There's my old head. I wouldn't very well be wandering about without that, would I?" Furthermore, as a divine spell, it is, on some level, sanctioned by a deity... who can grant you immortality if they like.

Well, first of all druid spells don't come from deities. Second, just because you have a spell doesn't mean you can use it any way you please. Ilmater grants Flamestrike, but will yank your spellcasting if you nuke commoners with it. Druids get it even earlier, but probably won't keep it long if they burn forests with it (unless they're Blighters, anyway.)

Greg
2009-11-12, 12:39 PM
Well, first of all druid spells don't come from deities. Second, just because you have a spell doesn't mean you can use it any way you please. Ilmater grants Flamestrike, but will yank your spellcasting if you nuke commoners with it. Druids get it even earlier, but probably won't keep it long if they burn forests with it (unless they're Blighters, anyway.)
Furthermore, you can duplicate the spell with Limited Wish, meaning that the spell does not have to come from a druid at all - particularly when Contingency is used.

Bayar
2009-11-12, 01:01 PM
Yeah, they hunt down all of those. Other than, of course, Liches, Elans, Warforged, undead, Green Spice Addicts, Dragonwrought Kobolds, Elemental Savants, and any of a number of other races I'm forgetting.

2 things:

1) Dragonwrought kobolds are not immortal. They just live 5 times their CHA score after venerable if they have a color ancestry, or 10 times CHA score if they have mettalc ancestry. Then they die like any other dragon.

2) Reincarnate would hurt Dragonwrought Kobolds because you roll your new race. Say buh-bye to Dragonwrought effect (and hello to a useless feat). Unless you get the druid to cast Last Breath on you and keep killing you until you reincarnate as a kobold again. But that would hurt like the Fury.



I'm a big fan of "throw Mechanus at the PCs" if they try crap like this.

Yes, the whole plane. It's made up of gears and machinery. Have all the inevitables slot themselves in where appropriate and power the whole fershlugginer thing up to mow down the erstwhile immortality-seekers.

Ooh, does the plane of Mechanus turn itself into a gigantic bigass robot called Voltron and squish the insolent PC's into a blob of atoms ?

Alex Star
2009-11-12, 01:30 PM
Okay this is an awesome plot hook. I was trying to figure out a plotline to reintroduce my group into the natural world after a very extended journey elsewhere.

Now I know exactly what I'm going to do a rogue sect of Druids following a nature god who has a grudge against death are keeping a vast majority of the worlds inhabitants from dying via reincarnate.

Mechanus is at war with these Druids and the Good PCs will be charged with more or less killing a vast majority of the population. What a wonderful role reversal

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-12, 01:31 PM
2 things:

1) Dragonwrought kobolds are not immortal. They just live 5 times their CHA score after venerable if they have a color ancestry, or 10 times CHA score if they have mettalc ancestry. Then they die like any other dragon.Epic-level feats mean that you can steadily gain lifespan with each level-up.

Edit: ^^ is awesome

Cespenar
2009-11-12, 02:48 PM
Maruts aren't logically sound in my opinion. Natural laws must enforce themselves, not have funny armored fellas prancing around and enforcing it by itself. You can't break the inevitability of death, if you can break it, then it was not inevitable in the first place.

I'm going over to Mechanus to have a small chat with the guys up there.

Optimystik
2009-11-12, 03:08 PM
Ooh, does the plane of Mechanus turn itself into a gigantic bigass robot called Voltron and squish the insolent PC's into a blob of atoms ?

FOR JUSTICE!!!


Maruts aren't logically sound in my opinion. Natural laws must enforce themselves, not have funny armored fellas prancing around and enforcing it by itself. You can't break the inevitability of death, if you can break it, then it was not inevitable in the first place.

Um, Natural laws can't enforce themselves, not with magic around. That's the point - the only thing that can counter magic's rule-breaking is more magic. Thus, a death squad of outsiders is a reasonable response to its abuse.

Alex Star
2009-11-12, 03:09 PM
Maruts aren't logically sound in my opinion. Natural laws must enforce themselves, not have funny armored fellas prancing around and enforcing it by itself. You can't break the inevitability of death, if you can break it, then it was not inevitable in the first place.

I'm going over to Mechanus to have a small chat with the guys up there.

logically something has to enforce the laws of nature. Something has to keep those laws intact. Saying "it's that way because it's that way" is illogical. So what is the difference between saying the natural laws are enfoced by a presence you cannot see or understand or by little armored men who are only ever seen by those who seek to break those natural laws.

Cespenar
2009-11-12, 03:37 PM
Um, Natural laws can't enforce themselves, not with magic around. That's the point - the only thing that can counter magic's rule-breaking is more magic. Thus, a death squad of outsiders is a reasonable response to its abuse.

You're saying "natural law" because you live in a world where death seems like a natural law (until we find a way to reverse death, that is). If our world had magic of that much potence, death wouldn't be any difficult to overcome than, say, gravity. Just as we don't see aircrafts as "breakers of the natural law of gravity", a world with inherent magic shouldn't see resurrection as breaking the natural law of death.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-12, 03:51 PM
The sanctity of oaths or the value of justice can't enforce themselves. But there are inevitables to enforce them. Why are maruts so bad?

That desert inevitable is a bit idiotic, though. Trying to combat desertification is chaotic lol

Optimystik
2009-11-12, 03:57 PM
You're saying "natural law" because you live in a world where death seems like a natural law (until we find a way to reverse death, that is). If our world had magic of that much potence, death wouldn't be any difficult to overcome than, say, gravity. Just as we don't see aircrafts as "breakers of the natural law of gravity", a world with inherent magic shouldn't see resurrection as breaking the natural law of death.

In fantasy, death is a natural law. Every D&D setting has deities that enforce it, even the noninterventionist Eberron or the undead-happy Ravenloft. Bad things invariably - and inevitably, if you'll pardon the pun - happen to those individuals that attempt to break this cycle without a really good reason to do so. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImmortalityImmorality) If you're sticking around past your time, it had better be because you have something to take care of/keep vigil for.

A pair of druids playing Philosopher's Stone - not a good reason.

Your analogy is a bad one. Planes don't break the law of gravity - they are every bit as subject to it as birds are. And from a "natural law" perspective - even the most perfectly-built plane will wear down and cease to fly again eventually. No similar safeguard exists for the druids; hence, they are a violation.

Nostri
2009-11-12, 03:57 PM
Well, first of all druid spells don't come from deities. Second, just because you have a spell doesn't mean you can use it any way you please. Ilmater grants Flamestrike, but will yank your spellcasting if you nuke commoners with it. Druids get it even earlier, but probably won't keep it long if they burn forests with it (unless they're Blighters, anyway.)

Just to defend Mark Hall's point it would be better to say that druid spells don't have to come from deities. Then again neither to clerics have to get their spells from deities, a cleric of an ideal (which could be anything from "Truth, Justice and the American Way" to "I like to kick puppies") cast spells just as well as a cleric who has a patron deity.

Also since you bring up Ilmater in the Realms druid do have to have a deity to get anything out of their class other then an iffy BAB progression and a bad weapon selection. More specifically they have to worship one of the deities of nature. It says this in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book (3rd Edition version) on page 23.

As for what's actually being discussed, it would provide effective immortality as has already been said but honestly if you're going to be doing that use a wish spell (or something) to turn yourself into something that's immortal with the first Reincarnate because it's just easier that way. Who wants to remember to write down on their calender that in 60-600 years they've got to remember to out and get themselves killed and have someone nearby to cast Reincarnate on yourself? I don't know about anyone else but I'd probably forget.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-12, 03:59 PM
Who wants to remember to write down on their calender that in 60-600 years they've got to remember to out and get themselves killed and have someone nearby to cast Reincarnate on yourself? I don't know about anyone else but I'd probably forget.

I'd assume that the evident decay of your body and loss of youthful vitality would be reminder enough.

Optimystik
2009-11-12, 04:32 PM
Also since you bring up Ilmater in the Realms druid do have to have a deity to get anything out of their class other then an iffy BAB progression and a bad weapon selection. More specifically they have to worship one of the deities of nature. It says this in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book (3rd Edition version) on page 23.

I know that, I just didn't mention it because that is a Realms-specific convention. It doesn't change my point any - the druid, like any divine caster (except maybe archivist or ur-priest) will still lose access to powers if they misuse them.

Druids in the Realms are even more restricted - they are subject to deity approval like clerics in addition to approval by nature itself, can't teach Druidic to non-Druids, can't upset the balance etc.

Cespenar
2009-11-12, 05:32 PM
In fantasy, death is a natural law. Every D&D setting has deities that enforce it, even the noninterventionist Eberron or the undead-happy Ravenloft. Bad things invariably - and inevitably, if you'll pardon the pun - happen to those individuals that attempt to break this cycle without a really good reason to do so. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImmortalityImmorality) If you're sticking around past your time, it had better be because you have something to take care of/keep vigil for.

A pair of druids playing Philosopher's Stone - not a good reason.

Your analogy is a bad one. Planes don't break the law of gravity - they are every bit as subject to it as birds are. And from a "natural law" perspective - even the most perfectly-built plane will wear down and cease to fly again eventually. No similar safeguard exists for the druids; hence, they are a violation.

Emphasis mine. Just because they can reincarnate doesn't mean they don't have to cope up with the other dangers of the world, any number of powerful creatures/people may break their cycle and end them. In your words, even the most perfectly-built druid duo will wear down and cease to reincarnate again eventually. You don't need Maruts for that.

And it's simply laughable to say that death is a natural law in fantasy. It's only a phase, a condition. There are tons of intelligent undead hanging around with nothing happening to them, there are your average adventurers, resurrecting their party members after each fumbled quest, and your life even doesn't actually end when you die, your soul is just sent to another plane, which can result in a myriad of different things. Death is not final in fantasy, it's more like a temporary setback, like a cripple that can be healed.

Hadessniper
2009-11-12, 05:56 PM
The druid, like any divine caster (except maybe archivist or ur-priest) will still lose access to powers if they misuse them.

After death in d&d the soul moves on to another plane. That plane designated by your alignment, god, race, manner of death, or one of a number of other variables. One of the possibilities being staying as a ghost on the material plane.

So really the only constant is that the soul leaves the original body, and that body dies. The destination of the soul is not of a great deal of importance to nature so long as the soul vacates the body. With reincarnate that still happens. I would argue that is why druids have reincarnate as opposed to resurrection in the first place.

Lamech
2009-11-12, 06:14 PM
In fantasy, death is a natural law. Every D&D setting has deities that enforce it, even the noninterventionist Eberron or the undead-happy Ravenloft. Bad things invariably - and inevitably, if you'll pardon the pun - happen to those individuals that attempt to break this cycle without a really good reason to do so. If you're sticking around past your time, it had better be because you have something to take care of/keep vigil for.Natural laws enforce themselves. If they don't they never were natural laws in the first place. The laws of the world can NOT be broken. No ifs, ands or buts. They can not be bent. Magic can not do anything about them. Magic must follow the rules just like everything else. (Frequently the natural laws will say, "unless magic is involved", thats not the point.)

Things enforcing them? Thats an UNnatural law. The law of people. An artifact. No more a natural law then the law against making fissle material in your back shed.


Your analogy is a bad one. Planes don't break the law of gravity - they are every bit as subject to it as birds are. And from a "natural law" perspective - even the most perfectly-built plane will wear down and cease to fly again eventually. No similar safeguard exists for the druids; hence, they are a violation. Birds and planes overcome the force of gravity. Reincarnation overcomes the power of death. They are equivilant. Now if the druids do not get "repairs", they too will die; they must have a constant source of levels. If the planes do not get "repairs" they to will wear out; eventually everything will be replaced. (Much like the druids except the druids only lose the top levels.)

Natural laws enforce natural laws. Things do not enforce natural laws.

deuxhero
2009-11-12, 06:40 PM
Hmm, come to think of it "Subverted Marut" seems like a great mook for an immortal foe to use. Now how to stats that (or do it by RAW)...

Starbuck_II
2009-11-12, 06:41 PM
Natural laws enforce natural laws. Things do not enforce natural laws.

You mean should not. Because Maruts do kinda...attempt to do so.The bigger question is who informs them.

Ormur
2009-11-12, 06:51 PM
Is there no higher level druid reincarnation spell?

Johel
2009-11-12, 07:51 PM
So, the problem isn't to become immortal.
It's to avoid the wrath of the Inevitables.
Like, billions of them.

Let's say they send twice as more Inevitables each time you destroy the previous team. And that it takes a month between each teams.
That's still going to suck after a few years, unless we go the tippyverse way and since no sane DM would allow it...

Basically, once there's billions of maruts jumping at you every months, you know you'll eventually run out of tricks. The solution is to make a deal with the Inevitable hierarchy. Rent yourself as a bounty hunter might be a option : you take down powerful "cheaters", which avoid the death of thousands of Maruts. Also, since you'll eventually die, that's a good deal for Mechanus.

Levithix
2009-11-12, 08:48 PM
Getting back to using it the cheat aging rather then dealing with the repercussions of cheating death...

At one point in our last game we were trying to get information out of a vary old guy. He wasn't very cooperative because he felt that he would die soon anyway. So we took him into the back room. The rogue killed him and the druid cast last breath. He was ecstatic. He promptly gave us our information then left to go enjoy his new body.

taltamir
2009-11-13, 07:33 AM
That strikes me as a failure for a DM. If the game is going on long enough for immortality to matter, there should be a lot more happening than 'the fact that you're still alive has annoyed the gods, roll initiative'.

Yes... I don't know why WOTC are so opposed to people letting their characters retire into immortality... it has absolutely no effect on combat or balance...

For example, Ragorn (a character I played at the same group as Sstoopidtallkid) would have attained immortality at level 20 (I don't think you knew)... he died last session... he'd be just as dead if his character sheet said "never ages; forever".

If immortality was all that, people would be playing elves with their 700 year lifespan instead of humans with their 70 years... But it is totally irrelevant.

Mark Hall
2009-11-13, 10:25 AM
Yes... I don't know why WOTC are so opposed to people letting their characters retire into immortality... it has absolutely no effect on combat or balance...

No, but it has effects on the game world. If immortality is readily available (even if only to those who are adventurers and get 20th level), then the world looks much different than if humans die after about 60-70 years.

Optimystik
2009-11-13, 10:57 AM
Natural laws enforce themselves. If they don't they never were natural laws in the first place. The laws of the world can NOT be broken. No ifs, ands or buts. They can not be bent. Magic can not do anything about them. Magic must follow the rules just like everything else. (Frequently the natural laws will say, "unless magic is involved", thats not the point.)

The laws of the world can be broken all the time (see also: Magic); there are just consequences for doing so. You CAN drop your Bag of Holding into a Portable Hole; that doesn't make it a good idea. The results of doing so are due to a natural law being violated. Similarly, you CAN prolong your life through perpetual Reincarnation, but that's not a good idea either thanks to the Maruts.

They may not be part of your kitchen table setting, and that's great. But they do exist in core D&D, and specifically exist to go after people that try for immortality via shenanigans.


Things enforcing them? Thats an UNnatural law. The law of people. An artifact. No more a natural law then the law against making fissile material in your back shed.

There is no natural law against making fissile material anywhere. But doing so without the proper safeguards in place is impossible


Birds and planes overcome the force of gravity. Reincarnation overcomes the power of death. They are equivilant. Now if the druids do not get "repairs", they too will die; they must have a constant source of levels. If the planes do not get "repairs" they to will wear out; eventually everything will be replaced. (Much like the druids except the druids only lose the top levels.)

"Overcoming a force" is not a violation of a natural law. It is temporary, and quite fleeting on a cosmic scale. No bird spends its entire life, from egg to death and beyond, in the air. No plane does either. Every time they come to rest, they are obeying that law of gravity.

Perpetual reincarnation is not fleeting, thus it will attract cosmic attention.

"Repairs" are still a poor analogy here. No matter how often you repair a plane, eventually it will need to be retired and replaced entirely. No matter how often you resurrect an adventurer, eventually he will reach the end of his lifespan. Reincarnation has neither of those limitations.


Natural laws enforce natural laws. Things do not enforce natural laws.

Inevitables are not things.

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-13, 11:01 AM
Funnily enough, it doesn't seem to be a point of view WOTC is enforcing anymore. Eventually gaining immortality of some kind is a large part of the Epic Destinies. Occaisionally this is in the metaphorical sense, but often in the literal.

No Marut Death Squads, either.

Which I like, on account of having a creature exist as a 'has stats' version of 'rocks fall, everyone dies' is really kind of petty.

I also second the idea that the Maruts have no right to enforce anything, and therefor immortals everywhere should band together and destroy the Plane of Mechanus. :)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-13, 11:24 AM
No, but it has effects on the game world. If immortality is readily available (even if only to those who are adventurers and get 20th level), then the world looks much different than if humans die after about 60-70 years.When has WotC ever looked at the effects their abilities would have on the gameworld? Tippyverse is far more likely than Greyhawk, but the closest they ever came to realistic magic was Eberron.

Optimystik
2009-11-13, 11:32 AM
Funnily enough, it doesn't seem to be a point of view WOTC is enforcing anymore. Eventually gaining immortality of some kind is a large part of the Epic Destinies. Occaisionally this is in the metaphorical sense, but often in the literal.

No Marut Death Squads, either.

Actually, the Epic Destines are more like "death by another name." You fade into the Weave, or get absorbed into nature itself, or ascend to the afterlife... either way, you're retiring the character. You live forever, sure, but you can't exactly influence anything any more than you could if you had just died.

sdream
2009-11-13, 11:35 AM
No, but it has effects on the game world. If immortality is readily available (even if only to those who are adventurers and get 20th level), then the world looks much different than if humans die after about 60-70 years.

Being able to live forever is different than choosing to do so. Some people get bored. Some people die in unrecoverable ways, or are too poor to afford the magic. (It's not cheap).

I would assume in a world with dragons, elves, dwarves and gnomes living hundreds of years many humans might choose to live hundreds of years also.

But this is certainly not everyone in any reasonable society, and it is certainly not the biggest wierdness about DnD society.

(Real gods and actual heavens have to be the biggest change from the real world, and do a good job of encouraging folks to leave the material plane for greener pastures.)

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-13, 11:51 AM
Actually, the Epic Destines are more like "death by another name." You fade into the Weave, or get absorbed into nature itself, or ascend to the afterlife... either way, you're retiring the character. You live forever, sure, but you can't exactly influence anything any more than you could if you had just died.

For some of them, yes. In others;
You Ascend to Godhood, (becoming an Exarch to a more established God, or possibly starting out on your own, as appropriate).
Become an Eternal King on an Eternal Throne, ruling a demesne in the Feywild and occaisionally breaking the laws of space and time to go back and help out your younger self.
There's also one, Godhunter I believe, where you simply decide to stick around and not die, just to keep the (surviving) Gods on their toes.
And Punisher of the Gods, of course, where you become pretty much the reverse, aiding all gods and traipsing round the heavens as you wish, when not out dishing out your own brand of brutal and bloody vengeance.

As I said, it varies, but many include Real Immortality.

Optimystik
2009-11-13, 12:01 PM
You Ascend to Godhood, (becoming an Exarch to a more established God, or possibly starting out on your own, as appropriate).

You would more than likely then face the same restrictions on interacting with mortals that said deity would.


Become an Eternal King on an Eternal Throne, ruling a demesne in the Feywild and occaisionally breaking the laws of space and time to go back and help out your younger self.

That's a flavorful way for you to look back on any saving throws/defenses that you successfully made during your past career in a favorable light.

Living in the Feywild doesn't sound like you care much about the material world anymore either.


There's also one, Godhunter I believe, where you simply decide to stick around and not die, just to keep the (surviving) Gods on their toes.
And Punisher of the Gods, of course, where you become pretty much the reverse, aiding all gods and traipsing round the heavens as you wish, when not out dishing out your own brand of brutal and bloody vengeance.

Both of those sound like a conscious decision on your character's part to avoid interfering with the material world anymore - just like all the other epic destinies. Perhaps those still can - but they won't.


As I said, it varies, but many include Real Immortality.

I'm not sure you're appreciating my point here. An Epic Destiny in 4e means your character has achieved such massive levels of power and perspective that the concerns of mortals just cease to matter to them entirely. Two druids playing reincarnation pattycake can be done as early as level 7, far in advance of such a lofty perch.

Tiki Snakes
2009-11-13, 12:09 PM
You would more than likely then face the same restrictions on interacting with mortals that said deity would.



That's a flavorful way for you to look back on any saving throws/defenses that you successfully made during your past career in a favorable light.

Living in the Feywild doesn't sound like you care much about the material world anymore either.



Both of those sound like a conscious decision on your character's part to avoid interfering with the material world anymore - just like all the other epic destinies. Perhaps those still can - but they won't.



I'm not sure you're appreciating my point here. An Epic Destiny in 4e means your character has achieved such massive levels of power and perspective that the concerns of mortals just cease to matter to them entirely. Two druids playing reincarnation pattycake can be done as early as level 7, far in advance of such a lofty perch.

Just reguarding the Feywild one; No, not flavourful ways to look back on saving throws. When you reach a certain level, whenever you die, your future self comes back in time to raise you, or finish the fight on your behalf.
Tearing causality a new one in the process, of course.

As for concern over the matirial realm; In general, it's implied that the characters concerns are likely to go planar from the start of the paragon tier.
Specifics will vary depending on DM/Campaign/Etc. And Epic destinies are explicitely something you should discuss with the DM, end-point-wise.

I see where you are coming from, but it's different to say that 'the concerns of mortals cease to matter to them entirely' than 'All Epic Destinies effectively end in Death.'
As for how much you affect the affairs of the Material plane, though, that's a setting and DM issue, not dictated by the Books.

Mark Hall
2009-11-13, 12:12 PM
The laws of the world can be broken all the time (see also: Magic); there are just consequences for doing so.

See, I've long disagreed with the interpretation that "magic breaks natural laws". I think this is erroneous... magic IS a natural law of the setting. Magical healing doesn't contravene natural law... an influx of positive energy healing wounds is part of natural law, as is the ability of some people to channel spell energy through magical equations. Levitate is just a different application of natural law than a lever.

taltamir
2009-11-13, 05:49 PM
Funnily enough, it doesn't seem to be a point of view WOTC is enforcing anymore. Eventually gaining immortality of some kind is a large part of the Epic Destinies. Occaisionally this is in the metaphorical sense, but often in the literal.

No Marut Death Squads, either.

Which I like, on account of having a creature exist as a 'has stats' version of 'rocks fall, everyone dies' is really kind of petty.

I also second the idea that the Maruts have no right to enforce anything, and therefor immortals everywhere should band together and destroy the Plane of Mechanus. :)

I am with you on that one...

actually, now I wanna have such a campaign... that will be a glorious game... you detect a marut on your home plane, it wades into an easily attacked position where you strike, only to find out several others had the same idea... meet your fellow PCs... all of which are relatively new immortals.

OracleofWuffing
2009-11-13, 06:05 PM
...Oooooh... Kay...

I let the Marut kill me, then have someone else reincarnate me again.

Hadessniper
2009-11-13, 06:08 PM
...Oooooh... Kay...

I let the Marut kill me, then have someone else reincarnate me again.

I'm pretty sure it would be part of their operating procedure to destroy the body to stop such naughty actions.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-13, 07:57 PM
I'm pretty sure it would be part of their operating procedure to destroy the body to stop such naughty actions.

Pretty sure destroying a body upsets another Marut.