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View Full Version : [3.5] Rise of Emperor Tippy : How ?



Johel
2009-11-11, 07:41 PM
Context :
A DM, on a PbP forum, is currently running a game that, by his own words, is going to be "more about strategy and large-scale battles than about your usual party of adventurers". So far, it's neat and I even found it cool.
When he said "-Each player got 1.000.000 po to equip his army but you must spend it all", I found it REALLY cool : the guy was basically giving us a country's budget but, to avoid us just flooding the market with money, we had to justify ways the money had been spent over the course of the previous years. This was so going to rox...
Then the DM announced "-You are all level 20. You can recruit troops up to the level 10 characters or CR10 monsters". I had a brain lag... What ?
I tried to explain to him that even a single level 20 wizard could basically wipe out a whole army in a matter of minutes and that, with 1.000.000 gp to equip himself, the game was not going to be about armies waging an epic war but about demigods crushing ants.
I even presented tactics (Wightpocalypse and its variants, an upgraded version of Xykon's bouncing symbol, air bombardment with 500lb iron balls in bags of holding, summoned Vrocks making the Dance of Ruin,...) that could ruin the game, expecting him to say something like "-...eeeh, no, you right, this won't do, let's power things down". His answer ? "-Now, that's what I'm expecting !!"

So, from there, my goal is clear :
I will make a 20th level wizard and (ab)use the rules as much as possible to see how far I can get before "the gods" (aka the DM) stop him from taking over the world.

Self-imposed limits :
I'm not Emperor Tippy, however. I do have ethic standards.
My Wizard, while not an Angel, won't be evil. Actually, he's going to be Chaotic Good. This means :

No mind rape on whole population to make them more friendly. Similar spells such as Dominate Monsters are only ok as tactical, temporary tools, not as a social engineering strategy.
No wightpocalypse on innocent towns because "the end justifies the means". We want to rule the world but we want to rule PEOPLE, not their corpses or tortured souls.
No "scry-and-die" on people who "might" be a future threat. People should be punish for their past misdeeds, not the ones they haven't even plotted yet.
Also, since I want to prove that a wizard of that level is, alone, worth several armies, I won't recruit troops with the 1 million gp. Of course, nothing prevents me from summoning, dominating, calling or even create my own troops once the game begin. This also means our little Tippy got 1 million gp worth of equipement. Enjoy.

So, the rules are set.
Ladies and Gentlemen, use your limitless imagination to give birth to Tippy before he became "Emperor Tippy". Try to use core only but beside that, RAW is the limit. Just remember : It's a 20th wizard, no multiclassing, just a full wizard.

Wings of Peace
2009-11-11, 07:46 PM
Good means no Tainted Sorcerer... :smallfrown: instead of an army how about chain gated Solars? Goes well with a good theme :smallsmile:

Milskidasith
2009-11-11, 07:50 PM
Tippy actually said that it's entirely possible to run the Tippyverse in a good way, so it's not really against Tippyverse rules.

As for the level 20 wizard thing... why no multiclassing? Does that include no PrCing?

Starbuck_II
2009-11-11, 07:51 PM
As for the level 20 wizard thing... why no multiclassing? Does that include no PrCing?

Pretty sure, Straight Wizard 20 means just Wizard: unless he meant Level of Straightness.

Mongoose87
2009-11-11, 07:54 PM
Pretty sure, Straight Wizard 20 means just Wizard: unless he meant Level of Straightness.

Could refer to intended caster level.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-11, 07:58 PM
Have a substantial colony in a plane you created with Genesis where time flows faster than in the "real" world.

Also, get leadership.

JeminiZero
2009-11-11, 08:30 PM
I've heard good things about the animate dread warrior spell. Unlike animate dead there is no control limit, but you burn XP for casting the spell. So find some way of mitigating the cost (like making yourself necropolitan and spell-stitching it onto yourself) and you can raise an infinitely large army given enough time... then see above :smallbiggrin:

Of course as far as Wizard 20 shenanigans go, thats tame by comparison. But making yourself necropolitan might be a good idea anyway for the undead immunities.

industrious
2009-11-11, 08:34 PM
Although if you're a straight Wizard 20 with no extra XP, necropolitan drops you 2 levels.

JeminiZero
2009-11-11, 08:42 PM
Although if you're a straight Wizard 20 with no extra XP, necropolitan drops you 2 levels.

One level actually. Necropolitan drops you by one level and 1000 xp when you perform the ritual. Now write into your backstory that you performed it on level 3, and it would have cost you 3000 xp. At ECL 20 with no extra XP, the 3k XP puts you at level 19, and 3k XP short of 20.

At which point you might as well start using some other XP burning stuff since you will still be at level 19: Craft items, cast Genesis, the Spell Stitching craft process etc

On the other hand, if you get 3k or more extra XP, you still get to be level 20.

Milskidasith
2009-11-11, 08:42 PM
If you take it at level three exactly it drops you only 3000 EXP, which is only one level. And besides, he's going to be Crafting Contingent Spells anyway.

Ninja'd!

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-11, 09:00 PM
Have a substantial colony in a plane you created with Genesis where time flows faster than in the "real" world.Make sure you've reached immortality, and milk this for all it's worth. Make yourself an elan, or a neraph (non-native outsiders don't die of old age), a human with Otherworldly, or just someone with a druid as a cohort with easy access to reincarnation to keep you young forever. Or use a wish. (Necropolitan works as well, of course.)

Use lesser planar binding to bind an efreeti (dominate it, or offer to give it the next day's three wishes for itself for being a good sport and remaining in your service for a bit), and use its wishes to make freebie simulacrums of one illithid elder brain, one nightmare, two thousand versions of yourself, two thousand efreet, three thousand solars, ten tarrasques, and one thousand nine-hundred and ninety great wyrm gold dragons (do the efreet first, so you can use their wishes to produce more simulacrums; you should have all of these done within the first day), and ensure they're all completely loyal to you. Have the nightmare cast astral projection on itself, on you, and all of your simulacrums (do this from your demiplane to speed things up). Keep the original bodies of the simulacrums and yourself on your demiplane in orderly rows (the dragons should alter their bodies to become human-sized for easier storage). Make sure all of the solars, efreet, and dragons have the Flyby Attack feat via retraining and/or psychic reformation.

Make one of your demiplanes (you've got more than one; and all have the fast-time trait) out of platinum, and use the sped-up time-frame to cast fabricate and transport the coinage out.

Use the platinum to procure two thousand sets of ring gates (either directly or through various crafting minions you've got set away on your demiplane, such as dwarven ancestors); set up an underground keep somewhere well-defended (we'll get into that later). Split the solars into two groups; half to go out into the world, each riding a dragon or tarrasque and holding a ring gate, and half set to stay in your keep, with the the other halves to the first ring gates. The efreet are to stay in the keep as well. Also, wish for two rings of counterspelling for every simulacrum you've got, with greater dispel magic in each one.

The ring gates at the keep are to be glued to the walls, entrance-side-out, in an orderly fashion in a single long 50' wide hallway, each attended by one of your simulacrums, a solar, or an efreeti. They are to watch the ring gates, and transmit important information back to the elder brain, which keeps track of everything that goes on, and stores and relays important information between you and them.

Meanwhile, the solars riding the dragons and tarrasques go where you tell them to and do what you tell them to, keeping order in the world and smacking down any threats that come to your attention. The dragons can alter their shape to be smaller mounts, and the tarrasques can be saved for battles against serious threats that can't really hope to actually kill them.

Whenever a serious threat pops up (say, a world-eating abomination or an army riding out to try to conquer you) that a single solar/dragon or solar/tarrasque combo can't fix, it's time to start getting serious; instruct your solars to fly past the proper ring gate, casting a spell via Flyby Attack. You can have any and all of the one thousand solars (as well as your personal simulacrums) cast one regular and one Quickened spell through the ring gate every single round until they're out of spells, with the dragons and solars out on the field aiming the ring gates to see as many foes as possible. If the threat still isn't eliminated, or if it's an epic-level threat, the efreet can cast their wish spells through the gates as well.

The elder brain and you yourself can direct things as needed.

If you've exhausted all of your resources and still need more firepower, feel free to have your forces use their last high-level spell and/or wish to plane shift to your fast-time demiplane to recharge, before heading out next round.

And you still haven't touched YOUR spell-payload yet. Which you can bring to bear if you need quality over quantity (not that the spells of a 10th level caster aren't excessively awesome anyway).

Any simulacrums that are destroyed will merely wake up in your demiplane. Have the nightmare astrally project them again. Meanwhile, another dragon and/or solar can simply teleport to where that one was downed to take up the fight again. If any are dispelled or 100% destroyed, simply make some more via wish.

And all it cost you was some XP from genesis; you didn't even have to spend the one million gp.

[edit] Technically, you can wish for any non-artifact items you want, so you wouldn't have to even craft them. All a standard wish requires is additional XP-expenditure, and since the efreet don't require XP spent on their wishes for their full effects...

On a similar note, you can wish for scrolls of genesis, meaning A.) you can do this when you first start this cycle at or about level 11 (sooner if you get a scroll of lesser planar binding), and B.) you don't have to spend any XP whatsoever.

jiriku
2009-11-11, 09:33 PM
(pure, unadulterated awesomeness)


I was going to offer a suggestion that revolved around a handful of bound efreeti and inherent bonuses to your stats, but Lycanthromancer has already gone several orders of magnitude beyond my level of ambition. I shall instead shave my head, sell all my worldly possessions, and devote the rest of my life to studying the awesomeness of his post.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-11, 09:42 PM
Did I mention that once you have your genesis, you can have your army of solars/efreeti/yourselves/dragons/tarrasques in one round or less?

And once you have your crafters in hand, that they can craft your ring gates (all of them) in a few minutes of real-time, at most?

Yes. YES!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!*

...Ahem.







*Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind.

Douglas
2009-11-11, 09:49 PM
I wonder how this DM would react to something like Team Solars (see sig).

Fizban
2009-11-11, 09:59 PM
I've heard good things about the animate dread warrior spell. Unlike animate dead there is no control limit, but you burn XP for casting the spell. So find some way of mitigating the cost (like making yourself necropolitan and spell-stitching it onto yourself) and you can raise an infinitely large army given enough time... then see above :smallbiggrin:

Of course as far as Wizard 20 shenanigans go, thats tame by comparison. But making yourself necropolitan might be a good idea anyway for the undead immunities.

Did someone say mitigating xp costs? Look no further than the BoED for Ambrosia, a substance that can replace xp costs for crafting and is produced by the casting of the spell Distilled Joy. All you need is a bunch of people experiencing pure bliss and a whole bunch of spell slots (or an infinite item, magic trap, or wondrous architecture). Considering there are spells in the same book that produce the desired feelings (among other mundane methods), it's definitely the classy way to rule the world.

That or you can just be like Lycanthomancer and win everything.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-11, 10:04 PM
How come no one has recommended Leadership yet?

Coidzor
2009-11-11, 10:05 PM
^: Archivist or Cleric Cohort? Those seem like the two best options aside from maybe a psionic character for easier access to psychic(psionic?) reformation to give the solars and such fly-by attack.

The only other that comes to mind (Artificer) seems to be made obsolete by the crafting demiplane.

<_< Psst, what are these Dwarven Ancestors you mentioned, Lycanthromancer?

Now that we have an army that's been made available for a slight XP cost in less than 30 seconds time(give or take)...

What do you we do with the gold? (other than setting up and furnishing said underground command center, preferably in advance of the start of play) (Yes, I know that once the platinum demi-plane mint starts churning he'll have theoretically infinite supplies of gold for crafting purposes and so on, but he's still gotta spend that initial gold stash).

Other than buying up every single spell that a wizard can learn, that is. I can't even begin to think of stuff other than terror weapons or stuff like that guided missile Tippy described.

Or creating a "flagship" for your enemies to be attracted to in the form of an airship with many, many traps of Fabricate on the bottom so that huge blocks of whatsit that's heavy falls and crushes things into oblivion, possibly while covered in alchemists' fire. Heck, could probably assemble such a structure out of solar simulacrums if one wanted to devote a few more rounds to creating them before setting up that command center.


Did someone say mitigating xp costs? Look no further than the BoED for Ambrosia, a substance that can replace xp costs for crafting and is produced by the casting of the spell Distilled Joy. All you need is a bunch of people experiencing pure bliss and a whole bunch of spell slots (or an infinite item, magic trap, or wondrous architecture). Considering there are spells in the same book that produce the desired feelings (among other mundane methods), it's definitely the classy way to rule the world.

That or you can just be like Lycanthomancer and win everything.

Why not do it all?

The Lycanthromancer route is, essentially, free of the gp cost, so the set-up for the conveyor belt/prison/battery station/series of magical, self-resetting traps can be taken out of the initial gold value (1 million, wasn't it? Or was it 100 million?)

From what I've read it seems like we can spend that gold value in such a way that it's already been spent before start of play, so basically he could spend the gold to set it up as his prison system (or what basically amounts to the kingdom retirement home for everyone past middle age or whathaveyou)

And then after the barracks and crafting demiplanes are set up, he could probably construct all of the relevant stuff with his free crafters for when he's not busy having them construct magical missiles and such.

chiasaur11
2009-11-11, 10:22 PM
Or creating a "flagship" for your enemies to be attracted to in the form of an airship with many, many traps of Fabricate on the bottom so that huge blocks of whatsit that's heavy falls and crushes things into oblivion, possibly while covered in alchemists' fire. Heck, could probably assemble such a structure out of solar simulacrums if one wanted to devote a few more rounds to creating them before setting up that command center.

Castle Wulfenbach meets Castle Heterodyne?

Has potential.

Arbitrarity
2009-11-11, 10:39 PM
Did someone say mitigating xp costs? Look no further than the BoED for Ambrosia, a substance that can replace xp costs for crafting and is produced by the casting of the spell Distilled Joy. All you need is a bunch of people experiencing pure bliss and a whole bunch of spell slots (or an infinite item, magic trap, or wondrous architecture). Considering there are spells in the same book that produce the desired feelings (among other mundane methods), it's definitely the classy way to rule the world.

That or you can just be like Lycanthomancer and win everything.

Oooh, good combination. You make a Brave New World, milk the people for Ambrosia for crafting items to improve their lives and make you more powerful.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-11, 10:52 PM
^: Archivist or Cleric Cohort? Those seem like the two best options aside from maybe a psionic character for easier access to psychic(psionic?) reformation to give the solars and such fly-by attack.

The only other that comes to mind (Artificer) seems to be made obsolete by the crafting demiplane.

<_< Psst, what are these Dwarven Ancestors you mentioned, Lycanthromancer?They're in the Monster Manual 4, though I'm not sure that it's the one I'm thinking of...


Now that we have an army that's been made available for a slight XP cost in less than 30 seconds time(give or take)...

What do you we do with the gold? (other than setting up and furnishing said underground command center, preferably in advance of the start of play) (Yes, I know that once the platinum demi-plane mint starts churning he'll have theoretically infinite supplies of gold for crafting purposes and so on, but he's still gotta spend that initial gold stash).Give it away in a campaign to get all the peasants in the world to like you. It's literally worthless to you at this point, so you might as well appear to be generous.


Other than buying up every single spell that a wizard can learn, that is. I can't even begin to think of stuff other than terror weapons or stuff like that guided missile Tippy described.

Or creating a "flagship" for your enemies to be attracted to in the form of an airship with many, many traps of Fabricate on the bottom so that huge blocks of whatsit that's heavy falls and crushes things into oblivion, possibly while covered in alchemists' fire. Heck, could probably assemble such a structure out of solar simulacrums if one wanted to devote a few more rounds to creating them before setting up that command center.
You can make whatever you want with your spells, and buy whatever you like with your platinum. Toss the gold. You can even tell your DM that this is what you do with it.


Why not do it all?

The Lycanthromancer route is, essentially, free of the gp cost, so the set-up for the conveyor belt/prison/battery station/series of magical, self-resetting traps can be taken out of the initial gold value (1 million, wasn't it? Or was it 100 million?)

From what I've read it seems like we can spend that gold value in such a way that it's already been spent before start of play, so basically he could spend the gold to set it up as his prison system (or what basically amounts to the kingdom retirement home for everyone past middle age or whathaveyou)

And then after the barracks and crafting demiplanes are set up, he could probably construct all of the relevant stuff with his free crafters for when he's not busy having them construct magical missiles and such.Doesn't really matter what you do with it. You have the spells. You have the wishes. You have plenty of platinum.

Coidzor
2009-11-11, 10:57 PM
^: Well, I think that's part of what he was asking us to give advice on.

What to do with these game sodomizing resources.

Guided Missile thread, specific post by Tippy. Interesting terror/capital vaporization option. With free crafting plane(if I read that right...) the exorbitant cost of destroying a ring gate per nuclear holocaust isn't all that much... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7173978#post7173978)

Magic Missile discussion thread I mentioned earlier. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97476)

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-11, 11:32 PM
Hmm. Technically you don't need crafters. You've got the wishes, which, according to the spell description, can create magic items of any strength; it just requires a large XP expenditure.

And since our wishes don't require any XP whatsoever...

You can have one thousand efreet make three ring-gates per day.

...Each.

Ragven
2009-11-11, 11:55 PM
Four steps
1) Look at the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook (including the landlord feat).
2) Look up Spell Turrets in the DMGII.
3) Look up the exact text of the "lyre of building".
4) Laugh maniacally.


Just combine Legendary Artisan, Merchantile Background, and your XP mitigating method of choice (and note the huge discounts that you can accumulate on a stronghold - 20% off everything is easy, 50% is possible if you do the whole job yourself on your own time-accelerated plane.)

Coidzor
2009-11-12, 12:15 AM
^: Oh, are you talking about the borg cube idea?

Another great terror weapon/target for your enemies to try to break themselves upon so that they come out into the open where your forces can decimate them.

Ooo, and so you have something to pummel the lower planes(and upper for that matter) into submission, you can create the Emerald Legion of unkillable shock troops to tear down the gates of hell and lay waste to the eternal battlefield, and even probably destroy a couple of layers of abyss. (ok, so it's actually for fun and for making your hordes increasingly varied)

...

Hell, you know what you should do.

Steal the Pact Primeval.

Or just rewrite the damned thing such that it benefits you as ruler of the universe.

Any other suitably universe shattering/rewriting ideas?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 12:20 AM
Four steps
1) Look at the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook (including the landlord feat).
2) Look up Spell Turrets in the DMGII.
3) Look up the exact text of the "lyre of building".
4) Laugh maniacally.


Just combine Legendary Artisan, Merchantile Background, and your XP mitigating method of choice (and note the huge discounts that you can accumulate on a stronghold - 20% off everything is easy, 50% is possible if you do the whole job yourself on your own time-accelerated plane.)Wishes mean you don't have to spend anything.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 12:24 AM
Resetting Extended shapechange traps? Might be useful in mass battles, when you want to send your simulacrum'd troops via dimension door through those ring-gates...

Though now that I think about it, you can use your wishes to get scrolls of genesis, meaning you don't have to spend XP whatsoever. Oh, and you can wish for various magical traps, too, since they're considered items.

...Traps of genesis to constantly expand your demiplanes and create new ones?

BobVosh
2009-11-12, 12:41 AM
...Traps of genesis to constantly expand your demiplanes and create new ones?

Everything else you have said was just RAWesome. This? This physically hurt me.

Asbestos
2009-11-12, 01:03 AM
How come no one has recommended Leadership yet?

Because Lycanthromancer owned the thread before anyone got a chance?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-12, 01:07 AM
Thankfully, there is an edit button so someone did recommend it before Lycanthropmancer.

Coidzor
2009-11-12, 01:19 AM
Establish hospitals consisting of remove disease and fort-save boosting traps and what have you using your free crafting via wish.

Form some kind of education system, possibly, even. I'd do it by just mind-raping all of the educated citizenry that would mind you tramping on their turf by setting up the hospitals to take the healings stuff out of the hands of religion.

...Ooo! Become the God Emperor by forming a state religion by having prayer to you being the vocal activation key/reset mechanism for your tippyverse traps?

Hmm. Needs more ability to propagandize this to weaken the support/loyalty of other sides' peoples.

Maybe a 17th level diplomancer/bluff bard cohort would be good for that in some part...

Superglucose
2009-11-12, 01:28 AM
Everything else you have said was just RAWesome. This? This physically hurt me.
...

we just need to figure out how to make it deal damage.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 01:42 AM
...

we just need to figure out how to make it deal damage.Easy. Just bang your head into the monitor.

As for other awesome ideas, instead of making your stronghold underground, what about a giant floating Star Destroyer Death Egg spherical animated object? Keep a simulacrum of a ravid somewhere in the center, keyed to control the object and make it float where you want it to float, and kill when you want it to kill. Since it's a creature, use imbue with spell-like ability to allow it to cast hallow + divert teleport (or dimension lock) and give it the Permanent Emanation feat as a bonus feat. This way, it can automatically divert teleportation anywhere in the complex into a heavily secured area, where you can obliterate intruders at will.

Coidzor
2009-11-12, 01:44 AM
If it created demiplanes that sucked in whatever they landed on and the demiplanes were keyed to be filled with some really, really toxic substance. Or lava. Or something...

But I don't know we could figure out a way to do that with traps via RAW.

Maybe produce a Demiplane of lava(or is there a paraelemental plane of lava?) and then just set up traps of planeshift or open planar rift or whathaveyou such that they get sent to something appropriately grisly.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 01:55 AM
Let's expand upon the floating fortress idea. What kinds of things, other than merely teleportation, do we need to worry about, and how can we defend against them?

So far, we've got...

Scry 'n Die teleporters, of course
Flying creatures of all descriptions, both small and large
Extradimensional invaders
Groundbound ranged assaults, both magical and mundane
Orbital (or sub-orbital) bombings
Effects such as love's pain
Traitors
Shapeshifted penetrators
Diplomancying penetrators
Invisible and sneaky penetrators
Weather issues, both natural and supernatural
Epic abominations
Opponents using time stop and similar means to sneak in
Tucker's Kobolds
Public access television

Any more I haven't mentioned?

I've got my ideas, but I want to see what y'all come up with.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-12, 01:58 AM
Bolshivism.

Ragven
2009-11-12, 02:04 AM
Establish hospitals consisting of remove disease and fort-save boosting traps and what have you using your free crafting via wish.

You forgot the part where you extract liquid pain from the disease sufferers before you cure them.

People learn to appreciate health care more when it takes eight hours out of their day for any visit.


So, for 9th level spell turrets

Ice Assassin
Genesis
Wish

What's the last one?

Coidzor
2009-11-12, 02:20 AM
Does someone setting up the Emerald Legion (basically IKEA tarrasques, essentially unkillable combat brutes) count as a credible threat? I don't really know how to grasp the power inherit in the potentially limitless solar/efreet/GoldDragon simulacrum army...


You forgot the part where you extract liquid pain from the disease sufferers before you cure them.

People learn to appreciate health care more when it takes eight hours out of their day for any visit.

And then they forget all about it when you hit 'em with the lollypop at the end and extract ambrosia from 'em so that you get a double whammy of XP stuff for whenever you actually will need to burn some. I guess mostly for crafting contingent spells, since everything else seems taken care of by the wish crafters.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 02:34 AM
Does someone setting up the Emerald Legion (basically IKEA tarrasques, essentially unkillable combat brutes) count as a credible threat? I don't really know how to grasp the power inherit in the potentially limitless solar/efreet/GoldDragon simulacrum army...Well, they're unbeatable by conventional means; doesn't mean you can't pull a timestop on 'em, then run up to them with a portable hole/bag of holding combo to send 'em to the Astral Plane.

Sounds expensive, but remember, you can have a demiplane pumping out thousands, if not millions, of these things with every passing round via wish.


And then they forget all about it when you hit 'em with the lollypop at the end and extract ambrosia from 'em so that you get a double whammy of XP stuff for whenever you actually will need to burn some. I guess mostly for crafting contingent spells, since everything else seems taken care of by the wish crafters.Contingent spells and 9th level spells that require XP that you have to cast yourself for some reason (as if you couldn't just wish for a scroll or a staff...).


Bolshivism.Well, in this case, wishing upon a star isn't just an expression. Squash the bolsheviks with Alpha Centauri.

JeminiZero
2009-11-12, 03:23 AM
Well, they're unbeatable by conventional means; doesn't mean you can't pull a timestop on 'em, then run up to them with a portable hole/bag of holding combo to send 'em to the Astral Plane.


If they have psionic support, they can just planeshift back.

Honestly though, the one running the simulacrum army has an advantage since he can just wish for Emerald Legion simulacrums.

Actually, thats something you could try as well: Make one Emerald Legionnaire via the instructions, and mass produce the rest through simulacrum.

Coidzor
2009-11-12, 03:34 AM
If they have psionic support, they can just planeshift back.

Honestly though, the one running the simulacrum army has an advantage since he can just wish for Emerald Legion simulacrums.

Actually, thats something you could try as well: Make one Emerald Legionnaire via the instructions, and mass produce the rest through simulacrum.

H-....Have we just had a breakthrough in terms of raw evil?

JeminiZero
2009-11-12, 05:35 AM
H-....Have we just had a breakthrough in terms of raw evil?

And we haven't added Affinity field/Synchronicity abuse to the 3 Mind Flayer controllers yet. :smallwink:

PonceAlyosha
2009-11-12, 07:32 AM
H-....Have we just had a breakthrough in terms of raw evil?

The only problem is that the guy's Chaotic Good. The solution is the same exact thing, except you put the Legionaire's in one of the fast time Demi-planes and selectively breed them in your magical harem.

You still need the mind flayers though, so you're gonna have to wish for helms of opposing alignment, unless that's evil, but this is really trivial.

You will conquer all things.

hamishspence
2009-11-12, 07:34 AM
Isn't there a rule that you can't create valuable materials (such as gold or platinum) by casting Genesis?

Johel
2009-11-12, 09:28 AM
Resetting Extended shapechange traps? Might be useful in mass battles, when you want to send your simulacrum'd troops via dimension door through those ring-gates...

Though now that I think about it, you can use your wishes to get scrolls of genesis, meaning you don't have to spend XP whatsoever. Oh, and you can wish for various magical traps, too, since they're considered items.

...Traps of genesis to constantly expand your demiplanes and create new ones?

Ok, I thought you had won the thread with your first idea.
But this is actually made of win.

So, basically :

Bind a Efreeti
Dominate a Efreeti
[many possibilities]
Profit Mastery of time, space and matter


About the flying fortress on Ravid-Engine :
I went that road already.
It's doable and awesome for fluff.
Not very useful when you can already teleport/planeshift at will to your own home plane, which is protected by N outsiders/constructs/dragons/whatever, though

Myani
2009-11-12, 10:05 AM
About the flying fortress on Ravid-Engine :
I went that road already.
It's doable and awesome for fluff.
Not very useful when you can already teleport/planeshift at will to your own home plane, which is protected by N outsiders/constructs/dragons/whatever, though

Made of Win for strategic distraction, though. Just send it floating off somewhere, and even if your enemies can come up with a crack team of adventurers to strike you down, they'll show up at your Floating Palace in the Sky. Bonus points if you leave a Tarrasque in charge.

If you do it right, they don't ever have to know that there are stacks of demiplanes from which you are breaking the laws of reality like it's going out of style. And it's not like you can't pay for it, right?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 11:09 AM
Isn't there a rule that you can't create valuable materials (such as gold or platinum) by casting Genesis?The only genesis effect with actual restrictions is the psionic version.

Otherwise, the only limits to your abilities to create are 1.) It grows at a foot radius per day. 2.) It can't create life. 3.) It can't create constructions of any sort. 3.) Its growth stops at 180 ft radius.

Otherwise, you're in total control of the planar traits, which includes manipulation of time and space (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#planarTraits).

The Gilded Duke
2009-11-12, 11:22 AM
Now the only two published planes with time differences I remember are the Xoriat Thelanis and Dal'Qor. Xoriat being 60 times slower, Dal'Qor being 10 times faster, Thelanis being seven times slower.

Without pushing things too much, you could set your private plane to be 60 times faster then the prime material as that is the upper limit of time difference that any published planes seem to have.

Might be good to make all your army outsiders, elans, or other things that don't age. Also, consider getting some dragons.

Also, with your alignment, I assume that making undead is out of the question. What about summoning them instead? I think it was either Summon Undead 3 or 4 that gets you Allip. Allips can be used to take out enemy Tarrasques, Genius Loci etc.

D_Lord
2009-11-12, 11:23 AM
Just hope he doesn't send an Elder Evil version of the KILLER PENGUIN (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7291024&postcount=1)! after you.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 11:27 AM
Just hope he doesn't send an Elder Evil version of the KILLER PENGUIN (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7291024&postcount=1)! after you.Sh'yeah, right. We've come up with lots of ways to take it out. I myself have engineered about a dozen.

BRC
2009-11-12, 11:27 AM
Ultimate genesis Cheese that no DM would let you do

1) Cast Genesis, since you can pick the material, make it made entierly of Antimatter.
2) Recruit somthing with Telekinesis as an SLA, use the Telekinesis to safely transport the Antimatter to the place you need it to go. Ghosts would work very well for this purpose.
3) Once you have identified someplace in need of being wiped off the face of the earth, use the Antimatter. Since an Antimatter Explosion (That is, what happens when Antimatter meets Matter) isn't magical, your Ghosts should be safe. Even if it is, it's not a force effect, so it only has a 50% chance to affect them.

The Gilded Duke
2009-11-12, 11:37 AM
Just hope he doesn't send an Elder Evil version of the KILLER PENGUIN (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7291024&postcount=1)! after you.

Because a level 20 character is going to somehow bring that into the game.

I'd be more worried about a diplomancer with tongues and lots of mobility and a Howling Helm (Can be heard at a six mile radius)

JeminiZero
2009-11-12, 11:52 AM
The only problem is that the guy's Chaotic Good. The solution is the same exact thing, except you put the Legionaire's in one of the fast time Demi-planes and selectively breed them in your magical harem.

You still need the mind flayers though, so you're gonna have to wish for helms of opposing alignment, unless that's evil, but this is really trivial.

You will conquer all things.

Better yet, see if loyal Mindflayer simulacrums can perform the ritual!

Deth Muncher
2009-11-12, 12:01 PM
Better yet, see if loyal Mindflayer simulacrums can perform the ritual!

....


D: D: D: D: D:

Why? Why this you do to us?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 12:07 PM
Because a level 20 character is going to somehow bring that into the game.

I'd be more worried about a diplomancer with tongues and lots of mobility and a Howling Helm (Can be heard at a six mile radius)That's why you get the jump them and do it first.

All of your simulacrums are unwaveringly loyal to you, so give them explicit instructions to tell you if they find themselves with a desire to betray you.

Radar
2009-11-12, 12:09 PM
Because a level 20 character is going to somehow bring that into the game.

I'd be more worried about a diplomancer with tongues and lots of mobility and a Howling Helm (Can be heard at a six mile radius)
Stomp him with blind/deaf/mindless (depending on the range of senses he can communicate through) creatures.
Also: Dominate Monster is stronger then non-magical persuasion as far as i know, so a bunch of your simulacrums can dominate other bunch of your simulacrums and send it to destroy the talky-man. :smallsmile:

The Gilded Duke
2009-11-12, 12:17 PM
Probably don't want to use mindless undead against diplomancers, as there is a feat that makes them vulnerable to diplomacy. Also might want to avoid Animals and Magical Beasts as Wild Empathy can be used in a similar way against them.

I don't think there is any way to diplomance Oozes or Mindless constructs.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 12:28 PM
Probably don't want to use mindless undead against diplomancers, as there is a feat that makes them vulnerable to diplomacy. Also might want to avoid Animals and Magical Beasts as Wild Empathy can be used in a similar way against them.

I don't think there is any way to diplomance Oozes or Mindless constructs.You have a point, Gelded Duke.

Just make sure you have a few castings of silence set up, then start hitting him with things like bestow curse.

Radar
2009-11-12, 12:35 PM
Probably don't want to use mindless undead against diplomancers, as there is a feat that makes them vulnerable to diplomacy. Also might want to avoid Animals and Magical Beasts as Wild Empathy can be used in a similar way against them.

I don't think there is any way to diplomance Oozes or Mindless constructs.
Soo... classic mass produced shadesteel golem army?

The Gilded Duke
2009-11-12, 12:42 PM
You have a point, Gelded Duke.


Ouch.

So right now I think the other big threat would be another Tippy.
Just how would you go about destroying them?

A Living Disjunction could destroy lots of their trap factories.
Some way to get anti magic up without it harming you?

The Gilded Duke
2009-11-12, 12:44 PM
Soo... classic mass produced shadesteel golem army?

Would also want to set them up with True Seeing if possible, in case the Diplomancer has illusions.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 01:03 PM
Ouch.What? :smallconfused:

0123456789

The Gilded Duke
2009-11-12, 01:17 PM
Gelded Duke
Gelding as in Castration.

I thought it was a hilarious typo.

Radar
2009-11-12, 01:20 PM
So right now I think the other big threat would be another Tippy.
Just how would you go about destroying them?
It's all-out Calvinball. The first one to find a hole in the opponents defences or an infinity+(more then your enemy) loop wins.


A Living Disjunction could destroy lots of their trap factories.
Some way to get anti magic up without it harming you?
First of, you can decorate the walls, roofs and basements of your factories with self-resetting, auto-triggering traps of Antimagic Field - it works as a thick wall impenetrable to magic without affecting the interior (if the factory is large enough). The whole area must be obviously permanently Dimensional Anchored or coated with Redirect Teleport.

Second of, all the factories can be instantly put back in place via your army of Solars - that's where the true production potential lies and where one should strike.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 01:23 PM
Gelded Duke
Gelding as in Castration.

I thought it was a hilarious typo.Typo?

What...

...

...OH.

Damn.

Sorry, dude. :smallredface:

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 05:23 PM
Hell, you could wish for a wish trap for every minion you have.

Or even worse, miracle.

Hmm. Why aren't we wishing for simulacrums of, say, Vecna? Or Mystra?

Johel
2009-11-12, 07:13 PM
Hell, you could wish for a wish trap for every minion you have.

Or even worse, miracle.

Hmm. Why aren't we wishing for simulacrums of, say, Vecna? Or Mystra?

Because the CL wouldn't be high enough for those one ?
You canít create a simulacrum of a creature whose Hit Dice or levels exceed twice your caster level.

We are 20th level but the Efreeti aren't.
They count as CL 12 for their SLA.
Which means a 24HD Simulacrum.

EDIT : Of course, a Solar would do the trick. :smallamused:

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 07:31 PM
Because the CL wouldn't be high enough for those one ?
You canít create a simulacrum of a creature whose Hit Dice or levels exceed twice your caster level.

We are 20th level but the Efreeti aren't.
They count as CL 12 for their SLA.
Which means a 24HD Simulacrum.

EDIT : Of course, a Solar would do the trick. :smallamused:Given that we have access to every non-artifact item in the game (excluding nonmagical items over 25,000 gp), I'm sure we can increase our Tippywizard's caster level by a dozen, at least.

And I could swear that there's a monster out there that auto-succeeds on UMD checks. Let's use that.

[edit] Sorry, I totally misunderstood what you were trying to say.

Let's wish for a staff of wish, then, and make it our Tippywizard-selves.

deuxhero
2009-11-12, 07:51 PM
I've heard good things about the animate dread warrior spell. Unlike animate dead there is no control limit, but you burn XP for casting the spell. So find some way of mitigating the cost (like making yourself necropolitan and spell-stitching it onto yourself) and you can raise an infinitely large army given enough time... then see above :smallbiggrin:
.

That's cheese? Isn't an NPC said to already be doing it?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 07:58 PM
That's cheese? Isn't an NPC said to already be doing it?To be fair, I don't think Jemini realized just what level of 'cheese' the discussion was about to entail. :smallamused:

chiasaur11
2009-11-12, 08:20 PM
To be fair, I don't think Jemini realized just what level of 'cheese' the discussion was about to entail. :smallamused:

True.

There's nothing here that reaches Pun Pun, but, well...

the gap between a monk and double p is a wide one, with multitudes of possibilities. And we're, to horribly mix metaphors, in the deep end.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 09:09 PM
True.

There's nothing here that reaches Pun Pun, but, well...

the gap between a monk and double p is a wide one, with multitudes of possibilities. And we're, to horribly mix metaphors, in the deep end.The deep end...of the Jean pool (http://somuchtodealwith.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/dark_phoenix_by_steven_purtill_1.jpg).

Asbestos
2009-11-12, 09:11 PM
The deep end...of the Jean pool (http://graphicworlds.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/440px-jeangrey442.jpg).

Hey its Sue Storm with red hair.

LAAAAAAND!!!

Edit: Wait, its actually Black Canary of DC
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rzdB5a4kLAo/R8C7U5yROCI/AAAAAAAAFqs/d5hF_z5q2Xw/s1600-h/GregLand_JeanBlkCanary.gif

But Black Canary is Sue Storm too, so I guess she's all three.

Also, what universe does Greg Land exist in where spandex goes into bellybuttons rather than covering them?

Coidzor
2009-11-12, 10:13 PM
Can we set off post exponential growth with this?

Where there's a chain of efreet simulacrums who go, wish up a new demiplane(with whatever sped up time trait you've chosen as your usual), wish up a clone of you (with some kind of effect so it's in stasis until needed), and then spend their last wish of that day wishing up another efreet simulacrum or so who goes on to do the same thing so that eventually one has an infinite number of demiplanes which start as basically backup places in case someone actually manages to take you out in such a way that they haven't thinuan'd you or something, and then they go through stages of evolution...

Like, say, first it's just set up and produces efreet simulacra to go set up new ones, then the next stage it produces solar simulacra, gold dragon simulacra, or whatever troop type (say, a 1/x of the efreet that go on to seed new demiplanes produce a different troop type, where x is the number of troop types you want), then it produces equipment for whatever troop type, and then produces more generalized equipment or uses a way to communicate telepathically with the elder brain/you in order to prioritize general production or to run cold and basically make the demi-plane into a secret backup place...

Xey42
2009-11-12, 11:23 PM
To beat another Tippy you have to find something he forgot

So, In beating another Emperor Tippy in an identical situation.. and I can't believe I'm going to suggest this.. use a truenamer cohort with Conjunctive Gate and the aforementioned atom bomb suggested by Tippy. You can keep people from plane shifting and gating onto your plane by denying spell schools etc once your in, but how are you going to block a truespeak version? (or even think to bother trying.. its truespeak).

Open a portal, send a golem through with the bomb, end game? Feel free to disregard me if i missed something (which i probably did considering how little i know about truespeak)

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-14, 01:55 AM
They're in the Monster Manual 4, though I'm not sure that it's the one I'm thinking of...Definitely not the ones I was thinking of.

Where ARE the dwarven ancestor crafters at?

Eldritch_Ent
2009-11-14, 03:15 AM
Okay, while I don't think your GM would appreciate the infinite wish combo nonsense, I think it's more important that you remember that your original goal was to prove one wizard can defeat an army. And in this case it's wizard + his own army of solars, mindflayers, etc.

There are a fewways of going about just having the wizard, alone, do this.

1- The infamous locate city bomb. This can be somewhat easily done with one or two feats, (Arcane Thesis: Locate City and Snowcasting or summat.) and a pile of Metamagic Rods. (Since you're a wizard, you have to use them/apply them while preparing I think. Could be wrong there.) Then all you have to do is wait for the opposing armies to approach within the massive radius of the spell.

2- Prismatic Wall/sphere. Or even better, initiate of the seven fold veil. INT mod times per day you're essentially unkillable. Make all your veils Green and Violet, because no right-minded group of army wizards will ever prepare as many Passwall spells as you have INT modifier points. (unless you pull this trick twice, but then you've also succesfully got them to spend a large number of spell slots on otherwise useless spells so it's win/win.)

3- Leadership with Improved Cohort. Don't take the "army", just the cohort. Make him the aforementioned diplomancer with a howling helm. Make him warforged so he doesn't have to pause to eat or sleep. Give him the howling helm, and custom items of +diplomacy, tongues, talk to animals, etc.

4- Craft an item of, say, damage resistance 10/wood or something and an item of SR 25. then suddenly you're completely immune to the hordes of low level casters and archers and soldiers the others will probably throw at you. Especially if you acquire some form of fast healing.

5- At-will items of fly, invisibility, and time-delayed create object. Drop large stone panels on the opposing army from above.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-14, 07:36 AM
There's easier ways, once you get hold of 9th level Arcance casting you've got the buffs to make yourself pretty much untouchable and the CL to make it last more than long enough even without Persist-cheese,

1. Superiour Invisibility
2. Mindblank
3. Non-Detection
4. Ghostform
5. Greater Ironguard
6. Shapechange
7. Greater predict Teleport
8. Contingency
9. Astral Projection


whack all that up and most everything in DnD won't be able to find you, wont be able to touch you and wont be able to hurt you, the tiny piddling remainder is all you've got to worry about... that and sic the Emerald Legion on him... from anouther dimension only you can access.... yeah, armies of grunts get a little pointless by mid-level and you're way past that.

Logalmier
2009-11-15, 01:53 PM
Create the best public education system ever. This means using PAO to turn all of your students into grey elves to get a +2 int bonus. The only assigned reading is Tomes of Clear Thought, which you have your efreets mass produce. At the end of their education, have efreets come to the school disguised as humans. The students will be called to the office one by one to receive a +5 bonus to int from the efreet's wishes.

If the students start off with an 18 int, they will get +2 from PAO, +5 from ToCT, and +5 from the efreet wishes. This means that they will leave school with an int of 30. Congratulations, you have now created a city of super geniuses.

Nerdanel
2009-11-15, 02:00 PM
Tomes and Wishes both give an inherent bonus, so they don't stack with each other.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-15, 02:04 PM
Definitely not the ones I was thinking of.

Where ARE the dwarven ancestor crafters at?

Frostburn IIRC, Ysgard Dwarves.

Logalmier
2009-11-15, 02:47 PM
Tomes and Wishes both give an inherent bonus, so they don't stack with each other.

Ah, my bad. In that case just give everybody headbands of intellect. Are there any ways of stacking this any higher?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-15, 03:18 PM
Ah, my bad. In that case just give everybody headbands of intellect. Are there any ways of stacking this any higher?Polymorph any object (x2) replaces your natural Int score, so turn them into sarruhks for natural 30 Int. Top it off with permanent polymorph castings to return them to human (or whatever they were before).

Then a few bestow curses for +3 due to age category increases, +5 due to wish, +6 due to headbands of intellect. That's 44 right there. Toss in human paragon for +2, and a PrC or two (like the crystal master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625d[/url)) for at least +3. Now you've got Int scores of 49.

I'm sure we can find other bonuses.

And this is all for the regular populace. Have fun.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-15, 03:25 PM
Polymorph any object (x2) replaces your natural Int score, so turn them into sarruhks for natural 30 Int. Top it off with permanent polymorph castings to return them to human (or whatever they were before).

Then a few bestow curses for +3 due to age category increases, +5 due to wish, +6 due to headbands of intellect. That's 44 right there. Toss in human paragon for +2, and a PrC or two (like the crystal master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625d[/url)) for at least +3. Now you've got Int scores of 49.

I'm sure we can find other bonuses.

And this is all for the regular populace. Have fun.

the regular populace who're now venerable true breeding Sarrucks??? Who's going to produce the next generation if everyone's a decrepid lizard-thingie? :smallyuk::smalltongue: I don't call that smart.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-15, 03:27 PM
They were polymorphed back into their original forms, and if they need to be fertile, the aging curses can be temporarily removed.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-15, 03:33 PM
They were polymorphed back into their original forms, and if they need to be fertile, the aging curses can be temporarily removed.

I wouldn't like to work as a midwife in your world...:smalleek:

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-15, 03:38 PM
Lycanthromancer's world, not mine. I'm at least half as disgusted as you are. Just not showing it.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-15, 03:42 PM
Lycanthromancer's world, not mine. I'm at least half as disgusted as you are. Just not showing it.Turning people into beasties is what I do.

I'm the Juggernaut Lycanthromancer, bi*ch! :smalltongue:



What? I said "birch."

mostlyharmful
2009-11-15, 03:47 PM
I can see it now.... proud dad standing outside the hospital door, pipe in hand, sensible moustache, possibly a copy of an educational magazine or the current Times addition...

Nurse bursts out..

AAAARRRRGGHHHHH!!!!! It's got my eyeee.....

Unassuming proto-dad potters over to the door and peers in.

Everything going ok in there Enid?

Doctors corpse flops out through the doorway and gets dragged back inside...

A rather tired female voice drifts out...

Yes dear, he takes after your mother in the scales. Make sure you've got the scroll of permenancy on order before we take him home or he'll shred our curtains.

Logalmier
2009-11-15, 03:48 PM
Hey, some people may have a fetish for venerable snake... things.:smallwink:

mostlyharmful
2009-11-15, 04:01 PM
Hey, some people may have a fetish for venerable snake... things.:smallwink:

Hey, I'm not judging... just... ya'know.... insinuating ickiness:smalleek:

Logalmier
2009-11-15, 06:07 PM
Polymorph any object (x2) replaces your natural Int score, so turn them into sarruhks for natural 30 Int. Top it off with permanent polymorph castings to return them to human (or whatever they were before).

Wait, how do you make polymorph permanent?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-15, 06:14 PM
Wait, how do you make polymorph permanent?Either research a new version of polymorph, or research a new use of permanency.

Alternately, use the efreeti thing and wish for psychoactive skins of proteus for everyone.

Logalmier
2009-11-15, 06:23 PM
Alternately, use the efreeti thing and wish for psychoactive skins of proteus for everyone.

...eww.

In all seriousness though, by RAW you cannot create new non-epic spells. There are guidelines in the DM's Guide to creating new spells, but nothing that a player could definitively use.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-15, 06:52 PM
My Vote: Gate in a solar. It's service: Provide you with a lock of its hair.

1 Magic item: Ring of Wishes (1).

Use wish to replicate Simulacrum. Get a 50% HP solar.

Next: Instruct Solar to use it's Wish SLA to replicate Simulacrum. This is without material components or XP cost. Replicate another Solar. Instruct your Solar to give this Solar, and all other creatures it creates, the following order:

"Follow <your name here, and identify yourself well enough to be specific> as if his orders were my orders. Further, give these orders, exactly as I am giving them to you, to any sentient creature obligated to obey you."

Repeat as often as you like. They're all artificial, all good, and all under your complete control. You have unlimited solars, unlimited 20th level clerics, under your command, and, if you need anything else, you can simulacrum anything up to 40 HD via Solar.

Assault the hells, and replace their leaders with ones under your command, and instruct them to act for the benefit and rehabilitation of the damned souls under their command. Further, instruct them to follow the ethical codes imposed by <insert good god here>, to the letter, as if they were law.

You can have limitless power, through artificial creations, and need not impose mandated service on any. Simulacrum Solars can perform all work, leaving your people in a state of relaxation. Use the same magic trap system that the Tippyverse uses, and go from there.

Provide entertainment, law, everything via Wish, Miracle, or some combination.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-17, 02:30 AM
...I just realized something that makes my plan even better. Or worse. Or whatever.

According to the SRD, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti) efreet don't have wish as a spell-like ability 3/day. They have 3 wishes 1/day as a single spell-like ability.

So that standard action they're using to fire off wishes? Them's 3 wishes fired off as a standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities).

Also, gotta give them Supernatural Transformation (wish) to blow past SR WITH EVERY SINGLE SPELL IN THE GAME OF LEVEL 8 OR LOWER.

This just seems to get more insane by the day.

h2doh
2009-11-17, 07:51 AM
the spell summon mirror mephit is a second level wizard spell found in expedition to the demonweb pits. Mirror Mephits have 1/day simulacrum at cl8. So basically, this can go off at lvl 3.

Oslecamo
2009-11-17, 08:03 AM
So that standard action they're using to fire off wishes? Them's 3 wishes fired off as a standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities).


No. Casting 3 wishes takes 3 standard actions. So a 3 wishes SLA takes 3 standard actions to use.

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated.

Johel
2009-11-17, 08:54 AM
the spell summon mirror mephit is a second level wizard spell found in expedition to the demonweb pits. Mirror Mephits have 1/day simulacrum at cl8. So basically, this can go off at lvl 3.

Now, that's awesome. :smallsmile:
I bet I can trick a mirror mephit with a planar binding, offer him something to get out of the circle, then just Dominate Monster him, abuse his powers for the next 20 days and then give him the previously agreed reward, so that I'm not indebted to him.

CL 8 is a bit weak but it's enough to replicate Efreeti or at least enough to duplicate tons of 16th level wizards...

Mind posting the mirror mephit's stats or a link to it ?

Thoughtbot360
2009-11-17, 09:23 AM
About the flying fortress on Ravid-Engine :
I went that road already.
It's doable and awesome for fluff.
Not very useful when you can already teleport/planeshift at will to your own home plane, which is protected by N outsiders/constructs/dragons/whatever, though

This is why I hate teleportation spells. Just the concept of instant teleportation.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-17, 09:29 AM
Wait.
We're talking about chain-gating solars, fast-time demiplanes, subservient elder brains, astral projection/simulacrum abuse, and you're complaining about teleportation of all things?

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-17, 09:58 AM
Wait, how do you make polymorph permanent?

The technique is as follows:

Say I want to change my beatstick meatshield into a Fire Giant, but he's only a human.

First, I cast Polymorph on the fighter, and turn him into a fire giant. The creature's type and subtype become (Giant) and (Fire), respectively. This lasts for 1 minute per level.

Next, I cast Polymorph any Object on him, and turn him into a Fire Giant.

He gets the following modifiers:{table=header]Name | Modifier
Same Kingdom (animal) | +5
Same Class (mammal) | +2
Same Size (large) | +2
Related (Fire Giant is to Fire Giant) | +2[/table]
Final Modifier: +11

Duration modifier = 9 or higher? The spell is permanent.

Heck, you could do it with Enlarge Person, then Polymorph.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-17, 11:17 AM
No. Casting 3 wishes takes 3 standard actions. So a 3 wishes SLA takes 3 standard actions to use.

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated.Note that it's a single spell-like ability mimicking a spell. Which takes as long as wish normally does, which is a standard action, since it's not otherwise stated.

Irreverent Fool
2009-11-17, 11:21 AM
1- The infamous locate city bomb. This can be somewhat easily done with one or two feats, (Arcane Thesis: Locate City and Snowcasting or summat.) and a pile of Metamagic Rods. (Since you're a wizard, you have to use them/apply them while preparing I think. Could be wrong there.) Then all you have to do is wait for the opposing armies to approach within the massive radius of the spell.

The Locate City Bomb only works in a 2-dimensional plane. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72212&page=7)

obnoxious
sig

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-17, 11:33 AM
It can still create an assload of wights in a mile-ish radius by dealing Flash Frost damage to everything that intersects the plane.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-17, 01:04 PM
The Locate City Bomb only works in a 2-dimensional plane. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72212&page=7)

obnoxious
sigThat also makes the spell completely useless even for its intended purpose, if you'll note.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-17, 01:13 PM
As others have mentioned, it's the defence that the spell Locate City does not actually locate cities.

It also assumes elucidean geometry, that the world is not in fact flat, etc.

No, the original locate city bomb fails because of wording mismatches, not because the original spell is useless. It does work great with flash frost and fell drain, though. As does anything else with a large range.

Coidzor
2009-11-17, 01:15 PM
Or only effects people on the ground floor, meaning the wights get to have some fun....

Tyndmyr
2009-11-17, 01:20 PM
Well, there are a number of ways to avoid taking damage(and thus, the level drain). Frost resist/immunity is the obvious way, though it can be countered via another metamagic to change damage type.

Being somewhere without LoE also works. Reviving people before 24 hrs is up prevents them from being wightified.

The problem is, none of these are terribly practical en masse for an army. And while each casting only drains one level...it only ends up being a level 5 spell. You can cast it a lot. Also, no save.

Oslecamo
2009-11-17, 01:26 PM
That also makes the spell completely useless even for its intended purpose, if you'll note.

It locates them. The plane of the spell just has to intercept the buildings on the city.

It's a lousy spell yes, but it's also just 1st level.

As for the wish matter, here's the exact wording:

1/day-grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only)

See what's funny there? There's actualy no spell that's called like that!

Congratulations, you solved one of the oldest issues of D&D! The efreeti grant wish SLA doesn't work at all, because there's no printed "grant up to three wishes(to nongenies only)" spell in any oficial D&D book! It's completely up to the DM what that ability does!

Tyndmyr
2009-11-17, 01:28 PM
Abilities do not have to be spells.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-17, 01:32 PM
It locates them. The plane of the spell just has to intercept the buildings on the city.

It's a lousy spell yes, but it's also just 1st level.You basically have to be in a city to find it. Wait, I can do that anyway.


As for the wish matter, here's the exact wording:

1/day-grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only)

See what's funny there? There's actualy no spell that's called like that!

Congratulations, you solved one of the oldest issues of D&D! The efreeti grant wish SLA doesn't work at all, because there's no printed "grant up to three wishes(to nongenies only)" spell in any oficial D&D book! It's completely up to the DM what that ability does!Then it defaults to a standard action.

Um...Ha ha?

Logalmier
2009-11-17, 05:31 PM
The technique is as follows:

Say I want to change my beatstick meatshield into a Fire Giant, but he's only a human.

First, I cast Polymorph on the fighter, and turn him into a fire giant. The creature's type and subtype become (Giant) and (Fire), respectively. This lasts for 1 minute per level.

Next, I cast Polymorph any Object on him, and turn him into a Fire Giant.

He gets the following modifiers:{table=header]Name | Modifier
Same Kingdom (animal) | +5
Same Class (mammal) | +2
Same Size (large) | +2
Related (Fire Giant is to Fire Giant) | +2[/table]
Final Modifier: +11

Duration modifier = 9 or higher? The spell is permanent.

Heck, you could do it with Enlarge Person, then Polymorph.

I understand this concept, it is simply that if you PAOed them back into humans, they would lose the 30 base int that turning into a snake thing grants. Lycanthromancer was saying that you would make the Polymorph spell permanent, not PAO. Because unlike PAO, Polymorph allows you to keep your original mental stats. I was then saying that you could not make Polymorph permanent.

Darrin
2009-11-17, 08:53 PM
Now, that's awesome. :smallsmile:
I bet I can trick a mirror mephit with a planar binding, offer him something to get out of the circle, then just Dominate Monster him, abuse his powers for the next 20 days and then give him the previously agreed reward, so that I'm not indebted to him.


Planar Binding isn't really necessary. All you really need is Summon Mirror Mephit. Any summoned creature follows your directions to the best of its ability, provided it understands the language you're using. Even at caster level 3, that's enough to get a simulacrum of anything you want up to 16 HD.

Normally, Simulacrum has a 12 hour casting time, requires a piece of flesh from the creature you want to copy, a rough snow/ice body, 100 GP per HD, and 100 XP per HD. But as a Spell-Like Ability, a few curious things happen... casting time becomes 1 standard action, and the material components and XP cost goes away.

On the first round, you summon the Mirror Mephit. On the second round, you direct it to create a simulacrum of whatever you like, and then order it to tell the simulacrum that your orders are to be obeyed as if you were its creator (move action). A couple rounds later, the Mirror Mephit goes away, and you and your simulacrum can do whatever you like.



CL 8 is a bit weak but it's enough to replicate Efreeti or at least enough to duplicate tons of 16th level wizards...


Black Ethergaunt. 16 HD, 17th level wizard spellcasting.

A Cleric can pull this off at level 3, since clerics already know all the spells on their spell list. You may run into a little trouble if the DM says you've never heard of a Mirror Mephit, but 6 skill ranks in Knowledge: the Planes plus Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) (2nd level Cleric spell, also something your 3rd level Cleric should know, +20 competence bonus to your next skill check). According to the Lore in EttDWP, knowing what a Mirror Mephit is and that it can cast Simulacrum is a DC 18 Knowledge check.

If the Mirror Mephit says, "What's an Efreeti? Never heard of it," then cast Guidance of the Avatar again for the mephit (touch range). It already has 7 ranks of Knowledge: the Planes, so at worst it can make a DC 28 Knowledge check. Unfortunately, there's no Lore entry for Efreeti in the MM, but based on similar outsiders in MM4 and MM5, the DC shouldn't be higher than 30 or 35. If 27 + 1d20 isn't enough, wait a day and try again.

A 1st level wizard, sorcerer, or bard can also use this trick with Precocious Apprentice. Focused Specialist Conjurer probably has the best chance with two 2nd-level spell slots. Knowledge: the Planes checks are a little tougher, since Guidance of the Avatar is cleric-only, but potions only cost 300 GP each.

Arakune
2009-11-17, 11:24 PM
Let's expand upon the floating fortress idea. What kinds of things, other than merely teleportation, do we need to worry about, and how can we defend against them?

So far, we've got...

Scry 'n Die teleporters, of course
Flying creatures of all descriptions, both small and large
Extradimensional invaders
Groundbound ranged assaults, both magical and mundane
Orbital (or sub-orbital) bombings
Effects such as love's pain
Traitors
Shapeshifted penetrators
Diplomancying penetrators
Invisible and sneaky penetrators
Weather issues, both natural and supernatural
Epic abominations
Opponents using time stop and similar means to sneak in
Tucker's Kobolds
Public access television

Any more I haven't mentioned?

I've got my ideas, but I want to see what y'all come up with.

Give all the world free internet access with high down/upload speed. That will counter ANYTHING.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-18, 12:39 AM
I understand this concept, it is simply that if you PAOed them back into humans, they would lose the 30 base int that turning into a snake thing grants. Lycanthromancer was saying that you would make the Polymorph spell permanent, not PAO. Because unlike PAO, Polymorph allows you to keep your original mental stats. I was then saying that you could not make Polymorph permanent.

Oh, that. Hat of Disguise. Become a shapeshifter (there are PrC's that do it). Heck, if you Polymorph into a Doppleganger, you can revert to your natural form as a standard action. Even when the polymorph wears off, that sticks, and you keep the Int.

Oslecamo
2009-11-18, 04:42 AM
You basically have to be in a city to find it. Wait, I can do that anyway.

Sucks to be you if you bothered to learn the spell then. Just like it sucks to be you if you learned any of the other near useless 1st level spells out there.



Then it defaults to a standard action.

Um...Ha ha?

A standard action to do nothing. The efreeti SLA doesn't refer to the wish as a spell. It's up to the DM what it does.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-18, 09:12 AM
What do you call a wish then?

The ability is "grant a wish to...yadda yadda", sure. But the thing you are granted by the genie is in fact a "wish".

Using RAW doesn't mean willfully ignoring what the designer is trying to convey.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-21, 10:53 PM
the spell summon mirror mephit is a second level wizard spell found in expedition to the demonweb pits. Mirror Mephits have 1/day simulacrum at cl8. So basically, this can go off at lvl 3.1st, if you mirror early-entry mystic theurge shenanigans.







See: Precocious Apprentice.

Logalmier
2009-11-23, 07:07 PM
You should find some way to travel back in time, and then buff your 1st level self's int into the stratosphere. That way you get a huge amount of skill points at level 20. It's a shame your not 21st level, as epic spellcasting would be perfect for this.

Are there any non-epic ways of going back in time?

Beelzebub1111
2009-11-23, 07:16 PM
Recruiting CR 10 monsters for an army? What is the limit?

You could just have an army of T-Rexes or 11-headed Hydras!

Ragven
2009-11-29, 03:45 AM
The quibbling saying that "explosive spell" doesn't work does not hold up to close scrutiny.


On a failed Reflex save, an explosive spell ejects any creature caught in sending it to a location outside the nearest edge of that area

There is no possible definition for edge where edge could mean "the flat plane of a circle"


1. a line or border at which a surface terminates: Grass grew along the edges of the road. The paper had deckle edges.
2. a brink or verge: the edge of a cliff; the edge of disaster.
3. any of the narrow surfaces of a thin, flat object: a book with gilt edges.
4. a line at which two surfaces of a solid object meet: an edge of a box.
5. the thin, sharp side of the blade of a cutting instrument or weapon.
6. the sharpness proper to a blade: The knife has lost its edge.
7. sharpness or keenness of language, argument, tone of voice, appetite, desire, etc.: The snack took the edge off his hunger. Her voice had an edge to it.
8. British Dialect. a hill or cliff.
9. an improved position; advantage: He gained the edge on his opponent.
10. Cards.
a. advantage, esp. the advantage gained by being the age or eldest hand.
b. eldest hand.
11. Ice Skating. one of the two edges of a skate blade where the sides meet the bottom surface, made sharp by carving a groove on the bottom.
12. Skiing. one of the two edges on the bottom of a ski that is angled into a slope when making a turn.
Furthermore, the spell *does* pick up subterranean cities as well, even if it seldom gives the information when it returns a single location to the caster.

This spell measures the distance to the ďnearestĒ community as the minimum distance one would have to travel to reach the city without moving hrough solid objects. Thus, a caster on the surface isnít likely to locate a subterranean city half a mile beneath his feet, even if the next closest community is 5 miles away overland.


As for mirror mephit shenanigans, it's far more efficient to have a fifth level spellthief who knows what an efreet is steal the spell repeatedly.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-29, 10:10 AM
As for mirror mephit shenanigans, it's far more efficient to have a fifth level spellthief who knows what an efreet is steal the spell repeatedly.More efficient for a 5th level character than a 1st level character?

Do you really want to wait that long?

Garatolla
2009-11-30, 05:33 PM
I don't think there's anything I can add to this that other -competent, well-versed in the rules - people haven't already said, but I am of the opinion that any good bid for world/insert target here domination requires at least one ominous zeppelin ~sage nods~

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-30, 05:40 PM
I don't think there's anything I can add to this that other -competent, well-versed in the rules - people haven't already said, but I am of the opinion that any good bid for world/insert target here domination requires at least one ominous zeppelin ~sage nods~I think this requires the obligatory tarrasquepplin:

http://1d4chan.org/images/e/ed/Balloon_Tarrasque.png

Garatolla
2009-11-30, 05:49 PM
That is silly, and yet awesome at the same time...Do Terrasques have bowel functions? That could be a psychological weapon in a whole new way...