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unre9istered
2009-11-12, 01:45 PM
What book did the spell Genesis come from? Was this spell ever updated to 3.5?

Tyndmyr
2009-11-12, 01:51 PM
It's core. You can find it in the SRD. Also, yes, it is 3.5 current.

hamishspence
2009-11-12, 01:52 PM
Epic Handbook. 3.5 online update doesn't change it as far as I know, nor does the SRD.

Manual of the Planes has the Plaeshifter, with a similar ability, but theirs doesn't have as many loopholes to abuse. It can create life in the form of plants though.

Expanded Psionics Handbook has a much more reasonable version (same level, lower XP cost, but no valuable material creation, and no adjusting the time trait.)

Fans of the Epic version insist that it has no bearing on their version, though.

unre9istered
2009-11-12, 01:54 PM
My group's old fashioned, they believe in using the books for some tedious reason. I own most of the books, but can't seem to find this spell in any of the 3.5 ones.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-11-12, 01:55 PM
Fans of the Epic version insist that it has no bearing on their version, though.

The spell version found in ELH has about much in common as the psionic version as polymorph does with metamorphosis. End result is roughly the same, but differences in wording matter.

hamishspence
2009-11-12, 01:56 PM
It isn't in any. Not even in Spell Compendium. Only the 3.0 book Epic Handbook, as far as I know.

And the Creation Domain was revised in a later book (Complete Divine), removing it.

Leaving only wizards able to cast it.

On the differences between the two:
I lean toward revising the 3.0 version to match Expanded Psionics Handbook. It reduces the brokenness considerably.

Epic handbook, on the wealth by level guidelines, said that they were designed to avoid the players getting their own moon-sized hunk of platinum.

lsfreak
2009-11-12, 02:29 PM
Fans of the Epic version insist that it has no bearing on their version, though.

Since the SRD 3.5 material, they're right. And yes, any sane/reasonable DM will put the same limitations as the psionic version, but RAW and RAI is perfectly clear.

Optimystik
2009-11-12, 02:34 PM
Furthermore, the ELH was written AFTER the XPH, so they have no excuse for not keeping the Psionic wording. WotC really dropped the ball on this one (again).

Tyndmyr
2009-11-12, 02:35 PM
That's correct. SRD is all valid 3.5 info, and by raw, the spell found there is what is relevant to yer wizards and such, the psionics version, no matter how similar, is quite seperate.

The lowered cost to cast does correlate nicely with the lowered abilities, though.

hamishspence
2009-11-12, 03:36 PM
Furthermore, the ELH was written AFTER the XPH, so they have no excuse for not keeping the Psionic wording. WotC really dropped the ball on this one (again).

Psionic Handbook is 3.0 (2001)
Defenders of the Faith (also with it) 3.0 (2001)
Deities and Demigods: 3.0 (2002) but earlier than EPH)
Epic Handbook is 3.0, (2002)

All have similar wording on Genesis. Though the Psionic version has no XP cost.

Manual of the Planes (also 3.0 2001) has a Genesis-like ability, but with the time trait fixed to Normal Time.

Expanded Psionic Handbook is 3.5. And is the first to correct Genesis to a less abusable version- normal time and, explicitly, no valuable materials.

its more a case of them not following up on it by correcting it in the SRD, or the 3.5 online update to the 3.0 books.

(also, as mentioned before, Complete Divine revised the Creation Domain, removing Genesis. Though I'm not sure if the SRD did.)

unre9istered
2009-11-12, 03:51 PM
Regarding the size of the plane created, what is the height of the plane? The radius is 180' is that also the height?
I'm envisioning a floating "tower" in a dimension with subjective gravity outside the created hollow stone cylinder and inside the cylinder gravity varies from high gravity at the "bottom" and zero gravity at the "top" with normal gravity at the "ground floor". The whole thing would be at the maximum increased time allowed by the DM (preferably so fast that whenever you leave it's effectively the same time you entered, but I wouldn't expect to get this from a reasonable/knowledgeable DM) with the inside of the cylinder also being timeless for food storage. Also the who thing would have a minor positive energy trait.

Are there any specific problems with this idea?

hamishspence
2009-11-12, 03:52 PM
Also- each version has slightly different rules as to what happens if you want to expand it.

3.0 Psionics handbook-
doesn't mention it, but the demiplane never stops growing, though it slows dramatically.

Defenders of the Faith-
Adds another 360 ft bubble, attached to the existing one.

Deities and Demigods-
Adds 60 ft to the radius.

Epic Handbook-
adds 180 ft to the radius.

It is slightly ironic, that there is one psionic version (which got revised) one wizard version, and three cleric versions (one of which doubles as the wizard version)- and it was clerics that lost access to it.

weenie
2009-11-12, 05:26 PM
A bit off topic perhaps, but anyhow, how does one reach the demiplane once it is created?

Gamerlord
2009-11-12, 05:30 PM
Plane shift?

weenie
2009-11-12, 05:38 PM
So it's accessible to anyone that finds out about it?

Gamerlord
2009-11-12, 05:42 PM
Probably.Unless it has some form of protection.

weenie
2009-11-12, 05:46 PM
And how can you protect it against someone plane shifting in? Dimensional lock doesn't cover it's entire area and it also stops you from plane shifting in and out. And there's not much else I can think about.. :smallsmile:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-12, 05:55 PM
Dimension Lock everything except the reception area.

weenie
2009-11-12, 05:58 PM
But can't others still planeshift to the reception area? And that's also where you'd need to store your lifeless body for Astral Projection purposes, so it's really not all that safe.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 05:59 PM
And how can you protect it against someone plane shifting in? Dimensional lock doesn't cover it's entire area and it also stops you from plane shifting in and out. And there's not much else I can think about.. :smallsmile:Build a single solid structure through the entirety of the plane. A dominated ravid (or a simulacrum thereof) to animate it as a construct. Use imbue with spell ability for hallow + divert teleport (or + dimension lock) would do it, if you managed to awaken it and give it the Permanent Emanation epic feat, so it could blanket itself to mess with teleporters. You should allow some loophole to get through, though (even if that loophole is "being me").

Rixx
2009-11-12, 06:34 PM
Really, all you need to know about Genesis is that it does what Nintendon't.

Eldariel
2009-11-12, 06:38 PM
You can also just make Conjuration and Transmutation limited schools (and Divination too so people can't scout on you there), vastly limiting the means people have to access it.

Zaq
2009-11-12, 09:18 PM
There's also Word of Genesis (another 9th level Cleric spell) in Tome of Magic, which does basically the same thing. Its casting time is shorter by one day (whoop de do, I guess?), and it's pretty much the same as the psionic version. It requires less XP than the SRD version (5k vs. 1k), but requires a DC 50 Truespeak check.

No, I don't know why the hell it exists either. (And remember, it's still a Cleric spell. This is not for the Truenamer.)

sofawall
2009-11-12, 10:24 PM
Furthermore, the ELH was written AFTER the XPH, so they have no excuse for not keeping the Psionic wording. WotC really dropped the ball on this one (again).

Wait, ELH was 3.0, XPH was 3.5... I think either you are wrong, or Wizards made a really stupid move.

unre9istered
2009-11-12, 10:30 PM
So it's accessible to anyone that finds out about it?

Not quite, plane shift's focus is a fork of a specific metal and size different for each plane. I would assume the creator decides the size and metal of the fork upon creation of the plane. As long as you never let that information out then it cannot be accessed. For added security, require the fork to be made of metal native to the created plane. Then leave the fork on the dimension prepared with Drawmijís Instant Summons. Now no one but you can access your plane. Makes getting there a bit expensive (you have to crush a 1000 gp sapphire to summon the fork but make the dimension full of such sapphires (or make of sapphires with a bit of metal to make the fork) and that problem goes away.

Are there any other ways to access such a dimension?

EDIT:
Gate's out:

Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire.

I would hope that the creator of a dimension would designate himself the ruler and thus have the option of denying gating in. If a ruler can deny a 9th level spell like gate, shouldn't he be able to deny plane shift (a 5th or 7th and therefore weaker spell)?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 10:32 PM
Not quite, plane shift's focus is a fork of a specific metal and size different for each plane. I would assume the creator decides the size and metal of the fork upon creation of the plane. As long as you never let that information out then it cannot be accessed. For added security, require the fork to be made of metal native to the created plane. Then leave the fork on the dimension prepared with Drawmijís Instant Summons. Now no one but you can access your plane. Makes getting there a bit expensive (you have to crush a 1000 gp sapphire to summon the fork but make the dimension full of such sapphires (or make of sapphires with a bit of metal to make the fork) and that problem goes away.

Are there any other ways to access such a dimension?The rods are inexpensive enough to reside within any given spell component pouch.

...so, yes, everyone can plane shift to your demiplane, if they want.

Yeah, it's dumb. But it's also RAW.

unre9istered
2009-11-12, 10:40 PM
Took me a second to realize you meant a Rod of Plane Shifting. I was also thinking spell like abilities of Plane Shifting would work.

I think it's dumb that Gate is easier to block by RAW than Plane Shift (as ruler I just say NO!).