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Asbestos
2009-11-12, 02:51 PM
So, just noticed in the PbP campaign I'm in that with our three Ritual casters we have our bases covered (Arcana, Heal, Nature, and Religion). But not every party is so heavy in ritualists. So, what Rituals are the most needed by a party, what skills do they use, and how does your party face the issue of the skills required not always falling under a single class' range of trained skills? Do you normally bring along one dedicated, knowledge skill heavy ritualist or do you bring two or even three ritual casters to cover the needed skills?

Off the top of my head the 'must have' rituals are the various disenchanting/enchanting rituals that turn the ritualist into a walking MagicMart and the Raise Dead/Remove Affliction/Disease rituals. Any I'm forgetting?

Kurald Galain
2009-11-12, 02:54 PM
Three words: Tenser's Floating Disc.

Mando Knight
2009-11-12, 02:55 PM
Tenser's Lift (Magic elevator that moves faster sideways than up & down) is another one that's useful, and Comprehend Language helps if you're in a party run by a DM who likes to throw dialects of every single blasted language at you.

Aron Times
2009-11-12, 02:57 PM
Linked Portal gives you cheap and instantaneous travel. It gets even cheaper when you travel circle to circle.

Asbestos
2009-11-12, 03:00 PM
These all use Arcana as a skill right?

Giggling Ghast
2009-11-12, 03:03 PM
Overland Flight. And if you're a villain, Teleport Catcher.

Mystic Muse
2009-11-12, 03:04 PM
raise dead and remove disease maybe? there are some nasty diseases in 4th edition.

Mando Knight
2009-11-12, 03:08 PM
These all use Arcana as a skill right?

Most do. Raise Dead and several divination rituals don't. Regardless, I would never consider making a ritual caster that didn't know as many of the ritual skills as he could, especially if he was going to be the primary ritualist. If you've got a Cleric and a Wizard or some other similar combination, they can split the job.

Asbestos
2009-11-12, 03:10 PM
So Arcana seems to cover a great number of the utility rituals but it does not cover the actual life-saving rituals.
Is this normally solved by always having a Wizard that's trained in Religion and Heal? Or does it make more sense to have at least two ritualists, one high-Int and the other high-Wis?
Are any of the Nature based rituals 'must-haves'?

Mando Knight
2009-11-12, 03:20 PM
Are any of the Nature based rituals 'must-haves'?

The campsite one is useful for pitching your tents and hiding yourselves in the wilderness, and a few other Nature rituals grant you the ability to adventure in the wilderness better...

Tengu_temp
2009-11-12, 03:20 PM
Raise Dead, in case someone has an accident.
Enchant Item, because otherwise you get no guarantee you'll actually get the super-important enchantment your build relies on.
Transfer Enchantment, if the super-important enchantment your build relies on is on the wrong kind of item.

Theodoric
2009-11-12, 03:22 PM
So Arcana seems to cover a great number of the utility rituals but it does not cover the actual life-saving rituals.
Is this normally solved by always having a Wizard that's trained in Religion and Heal? Or does it make more sense to have at least two ritualists, one high-Int and the other high-Wis?
Are any of the Nature based rituals 'must-haves'?
There are some very nice 'give free campfire and food' Nature rituals. Not must-haves, but very useful.

Mando Knight
2009-11-12, 03:23 PM
Enchant Item, because otherwise you get no guarantee you'll actually get the super-important enchantment your build relies on.
Enchant Item also enlarges that kobold's magic leathers to fit your Swordmage for free, and is a good use for excess cash or acquiring the not-weapon/implement/armor/neck-slot magic items.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-12, 03:25 PM
So Arcana seems to cover a great number of the utility rituals but it does not cover the actual life-saving rituals.
It is usually not all that relevant which skill a ritual is based on, so I wouldn't worry about that.

Most of the rites mentioned so far are "no check", and for e.g. linked portal, does it really matter whether the portal stays open for five seconds or for 25 seconds? For Cure Disease and Remove Affliction, if you have a healer nearby, any result that isn't zero or less can be acceptable.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-11-12, 04:05 PM
Speak with Dead & Hand of Fate are two goodies I like to have around.

Speak with Dead is great; it takes care of pretty much every "dying messenger" situation - I even used it once on a dead evil cultist to figure out what killed them before we could :smalltongue:

Hand of Fate is very useful, if you're clever. For example, "Last Crusade" problems (which chalice should I drink from?) and "Find the Clue" situations (what book will benefit us the most?) work within the spell's ambit. A good reason to haul around an Invoker, too :smallbiggrin:

Hal
2009-11-12, 05:41 PM
Whatever you do, make sure that your party agrees to share the cost of rituals. In my current game, ritual costs comes out of MY pocket, and it's a major annoyance.

Katana_Geldar
2009-11-12, 05:43 PM
Bards can get one free ritual of their own a day, which is good.

Traveller's Chant seems to be the best of the level 1s for them though, and we all know you get to a place when the DM wants you to get there.

My first impression of it was something like...

:elan: March, march, march back to town!

Doug Lampert
2009-11-12, 05:59 PM
and how does your party face the issue of the skills required not always falling under a single class' range of trained skills?

Who cares if the skill is trained? Your cleric defaults quite high on the Wisdom based checks and your arcanist likely defaults quite high on the Int based checks and many of the best rituals are "no check" anyway.

Throw in the rest of the party as assistants and you're likely looking at 25+ on an untrained take ten check at level 10, and by level 20 it will be 35 or so.

One of my players is trying to learn every ritual skill and as many rituals as possible, but that's just because his character is like that. If he weren't available they'd still be fine.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-11-12, 06:14 PM
Who cares if the skill is trained? Your cleric defaults quite high on the Wisdom based checks and your arcanist likely defaults quite high on the Int based checks and many of the best rituals are "no check" anyway.

Throw in the rest of the party as assistants and you're likely looking at 25+ on an untrained take ten check at level 10, and by level 20 it will be 35 or so.

One of my players is trying to learn every ritual skill and as many rituals as possible, but that's just because his character is like that. If he weren't available they'd still be fine.


:confused:

You know that you can only have 4 Assists at max when using Rituals, right?


Unless a ritual specifies otherwise, up to four of your allies can help you perform a ritual.

And that you can't Take 10 on Ritual Checks?

Unless a ritualís description says otherwise, you make your skill check when you finish performing a ritual. You canít take 10 on one of these skill checks.

Asbestos
2009-11-12, 07:05 PM
Most of the rites mentioned so far are "no check", and for e.g. linked portal, does it really matter whether the portal stays open for five seconds or for 25 seconds?

That depends on the reason you're opening the portal. Yes, a few unencumbered individuals can likely make it through in 5 seconds, but more than that or those carrying something large (like a fallen party member and all of their equipment) and 5 seconds might not be enough.

Asbestos
2009-11-12, 07:06 PM
Can you 'take 10' on any skill in 4e that isn't Perception or Insight (via passive perception and passive insight)?

Katana_Geldar
2009-11-12, 07:08 PM
Yes, as long as you have the time to take ten.

Asbestos
2009-11-12, 11:28 PM
Yes, as long as you have the time to take ten.

How did I never notice this?

Anyway, I guess the follow up to this is 'what rituals are the least worthwhile to take?'

Oracle_Hunter
2009-11-13, 12:05 AM
How did I never notice this?

Anyway, I guess the follow up to this is 'what rituals are the least worthwhile to take?'
Detect Object

With 400 gold and 10 minutes you can name an object, and for a whole five minutes you will know the direction and distance to the object.

Provided, of course, the object is within 25'-130' - depending on your Arcana check :smallyuk:

If you can roll a 40 or higher, you can detect the object at a truly epic 500' ! Astounding.

That is a 10th level Ritual, by the way.

cupkeyk
2009-11-13, 03:27 AM
song of sustenance. i hate food/water micromanagement. and the +5 to endurance all day long can save your party.

Katana_Geldar
2009-11-13, 03:31 AM
Create Camp gives you food, drink and a nice hidden place with beds to sleep in. :smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2009-11-13, 04:38 AM
You know that you can only have 4 Assists at max when using Rituals, right?
It's still easy to get a +4 or +6 from assisting, given that at high heroic levels you'll probably have a few party members that succeed automatically on a DC 10 check.


Anyway, I guess the follow up to this is 'what rituals are the least worthwhile to take?'
Traveler's Feast. It costs more than actual food, casting it takes longer than hunting or gathering, and according to the DMG any adventurer can go without food for over three weeks. Oh yeah, and a low-level magical item produces infinite food. The same applies to Song of Sustenance, really.

Detect Secret Doors. Since it doesn't have a duration, it only detects doors if you already know where they are. That's not very secret.

Commune With Nature. Yeah, good luck locating your goal with three yes-no questions. "Is it over there?" (point finger) "No." "Okay, how about there? (point slightly to the left) "No." "Maybe over there?" (point slightly to the right) "No. Thanks for paying, come again!" :smalltongue:

Kol Korran
2009-11-13, 04:44 AM
a few that i like... not a must, but nice:
Leomund's secret chest: a handy extra dimensional space. i like the image as well. but it sucks you have to use 140gp everytime you want to summon it.

knock. for obvious reasons. would be nice if it was faster to cast (as it is in my campaigns)

i also like divination spells quite a bit, but at most time they aren't necessery- the consult mystic sages/ oracle[/ commune with nature/B] and so on adds to the game i think, and could be quite informative if the DM isn't an ass.

[B]wizard's sight (scrying) would have been nicer if it wasn't for such a limited duration

shadow walk is also a favourite of mine. awesome for flavour reasons, and can get you places quickly that don't have a teleportation circle.

my opinions, for what they're worth,
Kol.

Sliver
2009-11-13, 05:53 AM
Detect Object

With 400 gold and 10 minutes you can name an object, and for a whole five minutes you will know the direction and distance to the object.

Provided, of course, the object is within 25'-130' - depending on your Arcana check :smallyuk:

If you can roll a 40 or higher, you can detect the object at a truly epic 500' ! Astounding.

That is a 10th level Ritual, by the way.

Great for finding where you left your keys though..

Kurald Galain
2009-11-13, 06:09 AM
Great for finding where you left your keys though..

:xykon: That's what Speak With Dead is for.

cupkeyk
2009-11-13, 06:12 AM
except that a bard dosn't pay for song of sustenance cost. so its a free endurance buff and food/water.

Jack_Banzai
2009-11-13, 10:08 AM
I'm a fan of Dark Light. A perfect light source for stealthy types.