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Darcand
2009-11-12, 10:13 PM
I have been considering the idea of giving monks the delayed spell progression, similliar to paladins and rangers, likely devine with access to only a few domains (strength, law, maybe war) Any imput pro or con?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-12, 10:19 PM
What spells specifically?

The Glyphstone
2009-11-12, 10:20 PM
The words "Monk" and "overpowered" in the same sentence cause a Divide By Zero Error unless separated by "Never". It'd definitely help them a bit, and wouldn't make their MAD any worse.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 10:20 PM
I have been considering the idea of giving monks the delayed spell progression, similliar to paladins and rangers, likely devine with access to only a few domains (strength, law, maybe war) Any imput pro or con?It's gonna take a lot more than that to make monks useful, let alone overpowered.

However, it does help. A little.

Really, you're better off giving them access to psychic warrior powers. Either add the power progression to the class and cut a bit of the idiocy inherent in their class abilities (like Slow Fall), or just add them on as-is.

MUCH better, that.

Temotei
2009-11-12, 10:21 PM
Unless you made it Charisma-based. But that would be stupid. :smallsmile:

Brendan
2009-11-12, 10:21 PM
Maybe just give them a domain of devine. Thats it. It can be used up to 3/day, and has all spell levels. I think that that could let it not be huge but enough to give a boost.

Berserk Monk
2009-11-12, 10:23 PM
The words "Monk" and "overpowered" in the same sentence cause a Divide By Zero Error unless separated by "Never". It'd definitely help them a bit, and wouldn't make their MAD any worse.

I still don't understand what everyone's deal is with monks. They're a great class filled with a ton of abilities.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 10:24 PM
I still don't understand what everyone's deal is with monks. They're a great terrible class filled with a ton of ^terrible^ abilities.Read pretty much any monk thread out there for why.

Also, replace with swordsage. Done.

UglyPanda
2009-11-12, 10:24 PM
It'd help a little, but Paladin and Ranger aren't really known for their spells. Half-progression is quite weak, and if the spells aren't things like all-day buffs or swift-action buffs, then the Monk isn't going to get enough actions per battle to use them.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-12, 10:25 PM
Maybe just give them a domain of devine. Thats it. It can be used up to 3/day, and has all spell levels. I think that that could let it not be huge but enough to give a boost.

Divine. With an "i" in it.


I still don't understand what everyone's deal is with monks. They're a great class filled with a ton of abilities.
What's great about the class? What's great about the abilities? I've seen many monk threads and nothing the monk offers has impressed me so far, except for the PHB2 and the UA variant monks.

Barbarian MD
2009-11-12, 10:26 PM
I'd say make it Wisdom-based.

I've always wanted to give monks spells like "enlarge person", which synergizes really well with a grappling build (don't argue about the merits of such build! I'm just saying if you're going to build a grappling monk, he may as well be bigger).

Healing spells. Perhaps even True Resurrection at level 20 like the half-celestial template. Most of the half-celestial SLA's would work well, in fact.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 10:26 PM
Divine. With an "i" in it.With two "i"s in it.

"I spy with my little eye, something beginning with "i". Guess what? It's your EYE."

"But that doesn't start with -" *Pop* "Argh!"

Tavar
2009-11-12, 10:27 PM
I still don't understand what everyone's deal is with monks. They're a great class filled with a ton of abilities.

Having more abilities doesn't=power or usefulness. If you have 1000 pennies, you still have less money than someone who has 100 dollars. Also, many of the abilities don't work together, and some are simply pointless.

As for giving it a boost, it really depends on what exactly they're given.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-12, 10:33 PM
With two "i"s in it.


I bite my thumb at thee.

Brendan
2009-11-12, 10:36 PM
Divine. With an "i" in it.

Sorry. Either a typo or lack of sleep.

Temotei
2009-11-12, 10:40 PM
Or both. Yeah...monk's not all that great when you look at it and analyze greatly. At first, though, it looks nice.

sonofzeal
2009-11-12, 10:41 PM
I know groups that are adamantly convinced the Monk is overpowered. The mind boggles.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-12, 10:43 PM
I know groups that are adamantly convinced the Monk is overpowered. The mind boggles.And the stomach heaves.

They think, "ZOMG, 2d10 DMG AT LEVEL 20! THAT'S, LIKE, 500 POINTS OF DAMAGE!" despite averaging in at 11 damage.

That usually misses.

Tavar
2009-11-12, 10:44 PM
Just looking at number of abilities tends to do that. I mean, the monk gets, what, about 28 class features, and many of them improve with level. Granted, they all suck, but still, by pure numbers they should be awesome.

Zeta Kai
2009-11-12, 10:45 PM
It depends on the spells, but I would say that a partial progression would go a long way toward fixing the monk. I say that their casting should be based off of Constitution, just to be different & to cut down on their already-crazy MAD. Also, these should be divine spells, but no healing & no polymorphing. A unique spell list is probably in order. Hmmm...

<runs off to ponder>

Tavar
2009-11-12, 10:51 PM
Why not Wisdom? I mean, it's already a spellcasting stat, especially for divine casters.

Dimers
2009-11-12, 10:54 PM
I have been considering the idea of giving monks the delayed spell progression, similliar to paladins and rangers, likely divine with access to only a few domains (strength, law, maybe war). Any input pro or con?

Pro. I'd leave out the domains entirely; that concept is mostly for differentiating one full caster from another. Give them their own spell list, like ranger, paladin, and Oriental Adventures sohei. I agree with Lycanthromancer that psi is more fitting, particularly psychic warrior powers, but if you go that route I'd still recommend custom-fitting a list of powers available to the class.

Emmerask
2009-11-12, 10:57 PM
I still don't understand what everyone's deal is with monks. They're a great class filled with a ton of abilities.

they are not overpowered so by internetz logic they are crap ;)

Anyway monk is good for a few level dip (same as fighter, ranger, paladin)
your fists are considered natural weapons (for spells etc) only class that gets that and you can buy the sparing dummy of the master (10' instead of 5') those two abilities alone make a 2 level monk dip quite good actually.
oh and two okayish feats on top of that ;)

Yes 20 level monk is not good... worse then 20 level fighter actually but who cares no one does a 20 level monk or fighter build anyway

As for the monk with delayed divine spells why? make a monk/cleric/sacred fist and be done with it...

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-12, 10:59 PM
they are not overpowered so by internetz logic they are crap ;)
Rogues, Binders, and Warlocks aren't OP either, and they get much more love than Monks do.

*Hugs Iago the Warlock/Binder/Hellfire Warlock 's character sheet.*

Edea
2009-11-12, 11:38 PM
Also, replace with swordsage. Done.

Seriously. The only problem's that ToB itself causes people to take up their pitchforks o_o.

Volos
2009-11-13, 12:17 AM
Monks are combat based, they do not need spells.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-13, 12:17 AM
Monks are combat based, they do not need spells.Err...What?

Tavar
2009-11-13, 12:19 AM
Monks are combat based, they do not need spells.

Spells make you better at combat. I see no contradiction here.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-13, 12:20 AM
Monks are combat based, they do not need spells.

I think what he is trying to say is that martial classes do not need spells.

Which does not make sense given the presence of the Paladin and Ranger... unless they are not combat based?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-13, 12:27 AM
So you don't see how this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hammer.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognitionDefensive.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognitionOffensive.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/prescienceOffensive.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/skate.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/synesthete.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htmhttp://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/biofeedback.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/concealingAmorpha.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/detectHostileIntent.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyAdaptationSpecified.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/featLeech.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/levitatePsionic.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePain.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/thoughtShield.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bodyAdjustment.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bodyPurification.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/darkvisionPsionic.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispelPsionics.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/keenEdgePsionic.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mentalBarrier.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindTrap.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePainForced.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/ubiquitousVision.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dimensionDoorPsionic.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicFeedback.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyAdaptation.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/freedomofMovementPsionic.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/intellectFortress.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/powerResistance.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/trueSeeingPsionic.htm) could make a monk a more viable combatant?

tyckspoon
2009-11-13, 12:34 AM
I think what he is trying to say is that martial classes do not need spells.

Which does not make sense given the presence of the Paladin and Ranger... unless they are not combat based?

There are a lot of functional Paladin and Ranger builds that get negligible to none spellcasting, simply because the spellcasting doesn't really come into play until after the best points to leave the class for PrCs or other multiclasses. The same thing would happen with the Monk if you gave him their progression; he'd still be a two-level dip class, then on to other things. The only practical benefit would be the use of wands of whatever spells wound up on his class list. If you're going to add spells to a class, you need something like the Bard progression to make it relevant. Or half-caster progression jammed into the first ten levels, the way the Assassin and Blackguard do it.

BobVosh
2009-11-13, 12:38 AM
I chose not to click a single link and say 'yes'. Your move now, Lycanthromancer.

If you give them full casting as a cleric, or whatever, than yes. Just as broken. Well, maybe a little less since they are a lot more mad to have nearly the same ac...

I think we may have stumbled on a fix for clerics. They lose spellcasting while wearing armor, just like all the other monk abilities. No turn undead, so no DMM ^^

Tavar
2009-11-13, 12:41 AM
Covering your ears and saying "lalalalallalalalla" does not a valid argument make. The listed powers improve a monk's attack, defense, and utility. There, that clear enough, or can you come up with an argument more sophisticated than "Does not!"?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-13, 01:01 AM
I chose not to click a single link and say 'yes'. Your move now, Lycanthromancer.That response right there just lost you some of my respect, BV. I've "debated" with quite a few people who did the same exact thing, and mine isn't the only respect that's been lost by that particular "argument"...


If you give them full casting as a cleric, or whatever, than yes. Just as broken. Well, maybe a little less since they are a lot more mad to have nearly the same ac...Nothing I listed was anywhere near irrelevant. Bonuses on AC, attack bonuses, damage, miss chances, SR, DR, and a few minor utility powers (such as bonuses to speed).

Psionic lion's charge is something the monk desperately needs to stay relevant. They get two main perks: movement speeds and lots and lots of attacks, but they don't synergize at all. You can either move OR full-attack, but never both at once, so you're always wasting one or the other. Now, you can do both. And what's better, Wis-based manifesting - a la the psychic warrior - gets rid of a lot of the monks MAD, as well; the right powers can make up for not having the awesome scores monks need in everything but Cha. Hit point boosts (to ease up on Con), save boosts (to ease up on Dex and Con), to-hit and damage boosts (to lay off Str a bit), and boosts to skills (to shore up Int slightly) go a long, long way to helping the monk. A lot.

This isn't even getting into all the powers that could be used outside of a fight to make the monk a bit more utility, which every class, fighters included, need to stay relevant at all times; most fighters have absolutely nothing they can do when they're not on initiative (and they're crippled with it comes to entering a fight, what with no Spot or Listen or even Search to keep from being ganked on initiative and sneak attacks; they make VERY lousy guards). Monks are in a similar boat.


I think we may have stumbled on a fix for clerics. They lose spellcasting while wearing armor, just like all the other monk abilities. No turn undead, so no DMM ^^Circumvented easily enough; DMM isn't why clerics are uber; it just makes them MORE uber.

And full-casting is necessary to keep the caster from being easily dispelled. You don't have to go the route of the Big 6 to be a full-caster; psychic warriors, for instance, are considerably lower tier than them, despite being full casters, but they remain pertinent even at level 20 due to having enough tricks up their sleeves to keep their combat schtick from being rendered obsolete simply by dint of being set against high level enemies, as most martial types are.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-13, 01:04 AM
It'd help a little, but Paladin and Ranger aren't really known for their spells. Half-progression is quite weak, and if the spells aren't things like all-day buffs or swift-action buffs, then the Monk isn't going to get enough actions per battle to use them.

I think it'd add a bit of out of combat utility to them. As well as pre-buffs when you know combat is coming. It's not huge, sure, but it's definitely not overpowering.

I mean, monk is kinda a grab bag of abilities at the moment. If you're going to build a class like that, the least you can do is give them a larger selection of random stuff, and half progression is one way to do that.

And no, it's certainly not overpowered.

Doc Roc
2009-11-13, 01:07 AM
So you don't see how this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hammer.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognitionDefensive.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognitionOffensive.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/prescienceOffensive.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/skate.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/synesthete.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htmhttp://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/biofeedback.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/concealingAmorpha.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/detectHostileIntent.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyAdaptationSpecified.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/featLeech.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/levitatePsionic.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePain.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/thoughtShield.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bodyAdjustment.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bodyPurification.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/darkvisionPsionic.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispelPsionics.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/keenEdgePsionic.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mentalBarrier.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindTrap.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePainForced.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/ubiquitousVision.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dimensionDoorPsionic.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicFeedback.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyAdaptation.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/freedomofMovementPsionic.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/intellectFortress.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/powerResistance.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/trueSeeingPsionic.htm) could make a monk a more viable combatant?

You just Won The Game.

Congratulations, you never have to worry when people talk about it.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-13, 01:08 AM
I think it'd add a bit of out of combat utility to them. As well as pre-buffs when you know combat is coming. It's not huge, sure, but it's definitely not overpowering.

I mean, monk is kinda a grab bag of abilities at the moment. If you're going to build a class like that, the least you can do is give them a larger selection of random stuff, and half progression is one way to do that.

And no, it's certainly not overpowered.Agreed (but see my earlier post about needing full-casting due to dispelling).

Psionics in particular is good for gishing, if only due to the Linked Power feat, in Complete Ps***** (edited for sanity). If Linked with a low-level swift-action power, you can do some nice buff routines without sacrificing your action economy. Later on, you can do this through schism and Quicken Power (though both are rather expensive). And if you know what you're doing, you can manifest powers normally and still whip some tail in the same round. (Combat Reflexes + reach FTW!)


You just Won The Game.

Congratulations, you never have to worry when people talk about it....I'm sorry, but did I miss something? Were you agreeing, disagreeing, or remaining neutral?

Tyndmyr
2009-11-13, 01:19 AM
I like the mentioned solution of half casting front loaded, like assassin or blackguard. Lets face it, any monk user with a brain is gonna PrC or multiclass out anyhow, may as well make the class good for 10 levels instead of 2.

Plus, this might even open up more possible PrCs. Making a monk Gish-friendly isn't a bad thing really. There's plenty of magic/mystic monk stuff out there, it's not much of a stretch.

Loxagn
2009-11-13, 01:21 AM
Having more abilities doesn't=power or usefulness.

This.

Heed the words of Xykon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html)

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-13, 01:25 AM
I like the mentioned solution of half casting front loaded, like assassin or blackguard. Lets face it, any monk user with a brain is gonna PrC or multiclass out anyhow, may as well make the class good for 10 levels instead of 2.

Plus, this might even open up more possible PrCs. Making a monk Gish-friendly isn't a bad thing really. There's plenty of magic/mystic monk stuff out there, it's not much of a stretch.No half-casting. Half-casting is pretty well useless, since those rounds you just spent buffing are negated by a single dispel (and there are ways to do so which require far less effort than a Standard Action, meaning you just lost several rounds with a Swift Action or less).

Full casting, but be like the bard or psywar, with lower level powers and/or spells (don't call 'em "spells" though; the flavor clashes with the whole 'martial artist' thing). Starting at level 1, of course.

Right now, every monk is a carbon copy of every other monk (which "casting" will fix), since the bonus feats they get are about all that distinguish one from another, and those feats are really, REALLY bad. Mostly because they supposedly allow the monk to do something that monks are really bad at doing. This leads further to dipping, since the classes that ARE good at it will probably want those first two levels of monk, if only for the feats-without-prereqs.

BobVosh
2009-11-13, 01:35 AM
That response right there just lost you some of my respect, BV. I've "debated" with quite a few people who did the same exact thing, and mine isn't the only respect that's been lost by that particular "argument"...
I apologize, I wasn't disagreeing, I actually feel that you are correct. Moreover those links are all blocked at work so I couldn't click em, and I did look to see what each link was. I knew most of them and assumed the rest to be of the same type of thing. At best I was going for a strawman political, and was just being tongue in cheek. Really my whole post was that, as I pretty much assume this thread to go the route of the other ones.


Circumvented easily enough; DMM isn't why clerics are uber; it just makes them MORE uber.
However losing armor, shields, and turns for all the various things they can do does nerf em a bit. The only thing that could be counted as a buff would be flurry when they go divine power/etc. Moreover I have always liked the concept of sacred fist, but thought it did it rather poorly.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-13, 01:54 AM
I apologize, I wasn't disagreeing, I actually feel that you are correct. Moreover those links are all blocked at work so I couldn't click em, and I did look to see what each link was. I knew most of them and assumed the rest to be of the same type of thing. At best I was going for a strawman political, and was just being tongue in cheek. Really my whole post was that, as I pretty much assume this thread to go the route of the other ones.Oh. Well, sarcasm really doesn't travel well over the internet.

You've regained 3 points of Respect! *Plays Zelda item theme*


However losing armor, shields, and turns for all the various things they can do does nerf em a bit. The only thing that could be counted as a buff would be flurry when they go divine power/etc. Moreover I have always liked the concept of sacred fist, but thought it did it rather poorly.It is a bit of a nerf, but it really isn't hard to regain that AC (and AC sucks as a defense anyway past the first few levels). Grab a monk's belt. Single-level dip in monk. Trade 1st level spell-slots with the party arcanist for a mage armor. Grab anyspell. Get miss-chances instead. Or just go druid and be more powerful all over the place anyway.

Sir Giacomo
2009-11-13, 02:09 AM
I have been considering the idea of giving monks the delayed spell progression, similliar to paladins and rangers, likely devine with access to only a few domains (strength, law, maybe war) Any imput pro or con?

You may wish to check out the monk guide I once did (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704).
In essence, you can simply try to get the best level 1-4 buffs for a monk from both arcane and divine spell lists (including ranger and paladin) with the simple use of UMD.
This would need no houseruling (only making sure that the players can spend their wbl as they would like).

Also, in case you intend to give your monks a delayed spell progression, the guide provides plenty of ideas what spells fit monks best.

- Giacomo

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-13, 02:15 AM
*Facepalm*

Not this again.

That doesn't work, Giacomo. You're the only one on multiple boards that thinks it does.

BobVosh
2009-11-13, 03:01 AM
Oh. Well, sarcasm really doesn't travel well over the internet.

You've regained 3 points of Respect! *Plays Zelda item theme*

Hmm, I can't afford the experience to place this into my backgrounds.

Totally Guy
2009-11-13, 03:38 AM
The touch attack Enlightened Fist was pretty good when I played him. I wasn't really optimising any further than taking the prestige class as soon as viable.

The others in the party were kind of looking a bit rubbish in comparison. (Although I sucked until level 6)

We decided that monks generally should be more like the enlightened fist. So I pretty much agree with the notion that spells are powerful.

ranagrande
2009-11-13, 05:55 AM
After looking things over a bit, I have decided on my own fix for the Monk, and it does indeed involve giving access to full ninth level divine casting.

I would gestalt the Monk from the Player's Handbook with the Healer from the Miniature's Handbook and have them play as a single class. I think it's a good fit in terms of flavor, and it opens up a variety of options and play styles. It takes two of the weaker base classes and combines them into something that might be worth playing. It still comes nowhere near the other full casters, so I don't think it could be called overpowered.

Thoughts?

Zore
2009-11-13, 06:10 AM
Give them spontaneous cure conversion like a cleric. Maybe beef the spell list a bit as well because until they get gate its got next to nothing so a few of the buff spells from the cleric list.

BobVosh
2009-11-13, 06:14 AM
I am now imagining a monk on a unicorn. Then he jumps off, quivering palms a man, tumbles under the unicorn to healing touch a victim only to finish with a jump onto the unicorn. Away they go together, riding into the sunset.

ranagrande
2009-11-13, 06:17 AM
I am now imagining a monk on a unicorn. Then he jumps off, quivering palms a man, tumbles under the unicorn to healing touch a victim only to finish with a jump onto the unicorn. Away they go together, riding into the sunset.Yes, that's it exactly!

T.G. Oskar
2009-11-13, 06:18 AM
So you don't see how this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hammer.htm)

I can do quite well with my fists, and the two don't mix. Thanks, but no thanks. As a freebie, tho, it's not bad. Next!!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm)

When I play a Psionic Fist/of Zuoken, or in case I play a Monk with Tashalatora, this power always goes in the list. Mix with this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/forceScreen.htm) for better results. Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognitionDefensive.htm)

Insight to AC: now we're talking. This is really good. Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognitionOffensive.htm)

Insight to attack bonus. Certainly something I'd enjoy as a Monk. Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/prescienceOffensive.htm)

Add damage as insight, and presto!! More damage for melee! Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/skate.htm)

It's kinda meh. Especially since you didn't add the thing that makes Monks go "woo-hoo!!!" I'll correct that mistake right at the end. Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/synesthete.htm)

Hmm...kinda undecided on this one. Since you get a special form of touch later on. Besides, not quite blindsight. Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htm)

Are you kidding? Temp. Hit Points, while a good buffer against damage, aren't particularly useful when it makes you lose a turn. Now, if you get them through a fellow caster's spell, they rock. As a standard action, pass. Really, really, REALLY pass. Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/biofeedback.htm)

So-so. It's between it sucks and it rocks, because it's untyped DR. Maximum would be a DR/8 at 20th level, by which moment you'll rather have a higher AC. Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/concealingAmorpha.htm)

Ah, concealment. I'd also say give it the greater version of it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/concealingAmorphaGreater.htm) (since, technically, you can get it as a Psionic Fist/of Zuoken) as well. Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/detectHostileIntent.htm)

Hey look, temporary Uncanny Dodge! ...Why not give it to a Monk? There's enough reasons to make it (Ex) instead of (Su)... Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyAdaptationSpecified.htm)

Resist Energy, but it also provides light! Always a good one. Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/featLeech.htm)

Yay feats!! Boo for limited feats!! Heroics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this. Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/levitatePsionic.htm)

Don't. Make. Me. Laugh. Unless you use it offensively, I don't see why you'd take this over this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/flyPsionic.htm). Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePain.htm)

Bad Monk. BAAAAAAD MONK!!! You don't do that to a friend!! Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/thoughtShield.htm)

Psychic Warriors do this better (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindBlankPersonal.htm). Much, much better. Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bodyAdjustment.htm)

Oo, self-healing!! Much better than Wholeness of Body!! Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bodyPurification.htm)

Ah, this one is pretty good. Too bad it's not a Restoration spell. Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/darkvisionPsionic.htm)

Useless if you get a race with Darkvision. Or if someone dares to bring a light. Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispelPsionics.htm)

Ah, magic-psionics transparency!! You can do to mages what they do to you when you get buffed. Furthermore, you can do it better! Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/keenEdgePsionic.htm)

Yay!! Now my fists do more damage!! But...something's odd. Something's...missing. Next?


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mentalBarrier.htm)

Waste of PP. With what you already have, you have something great. This...well, this can work, but the waste of PP limits the use of better powers. Since, you either want it really high, or for a longer time. Next!!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindTrap.htm)

Ugh!! Waste of PP, unless you're on a psionic-intensive campaign. Even there, it sucks. Next!!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePainForced.htm)

NOW WE'RE TALKING!! Retribution for the win!! Next!!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm)

Rest in peace, Synesthete. Next!!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/ubiquitousVision.htm)

Yay, Improved Uncanny Dodge!! ...See above, please. Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dimensionDoorPsionic.htm)

Monk already has it, 1/day. This makes it 7 PP/day, or 13/PP day if you use it as a move action. Can't use even free actions until your next turn. So...Sun School tactical feat? Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicFeedback.htm)

Take Shared Pain for greater retribution. Half damage taken + 5 extra damage is no slouch. Except...Mind Blank blocks it!! Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyAdaptation.htm)

Resist Energy without a specified energy type? Sign me up!! Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/freedomofMovementPsionic.htm)

Ah, yes: Monk can't be grappled, held, paralyzed, entangled, immobilized, slowed, or generally prevented from moving. Monk moves fast. Good mathematics! Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/intellectFortress.htm)

Great!! ...Were it not because it specifies powers and psi-like abilities, and I recall this one doesn't get the benefits from psionics-magic transparency. Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/powerResistance.htm)

Like Spell Resistance, only for powers!! And, psionics-magic transparency means it also applies to spells. Only 2 more than base Monk, although it depends on Manifester Level which can work a tad better than base Monk. But this begs the question: why not fix Diamond Soul then? Next!


and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/trueSeeingPsionic.htm) could make a monk a more viable combatant?

Why, certainly...except that you already have something better. And IIRC, both don't mix. Anyway...

What happened with this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metaphysicalWeapon.htm), and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm), and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/thickenSkin.htm), and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/animalAffinity.htm), and this of all things (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm), and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/strengthofMyEnemy.htm), and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vampiricBlade.htm), and this even if it seems weak (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/weaponofEnergy.htm), and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/oakBody.htm), and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/breathoftheBlackDragon.htm), and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispellingBuffer.htm), and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/formofDoom.htm), and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm), and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/restorationPsionic.htm), and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/nullPsionicsField.htm), and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/etherealJauntPsionic.htm), and even this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/cloudMind.htm), Lycanthromancer? Too good for the Monk, or too worthless?

I'm of the school that says Psionics work as a fix for Monks, and I even give my support to prestige classes that others indicate as worthless or not so useful, such as Psionic Fist/of Zuoken and the ill-conceived Zerth Cenobite (although I still agree that Tashalatora > PrCs, and Ardent shows why that's exactly right). Spells of any kind not so much, since they are less flexible than what psionics do, with some clear exceptions (nearly most of them being of the Wisdom-based divine). But yeah, unless you made a Monk have full Wizard-based casting exactly as a Wizard does, the Monk wouldn't be overpowered, and even then it would be the spells that are overpowered (and the class that provided them for having them as a class ability).

Healer, though, does not a good Monk fix makes. Healer is weak on its own right, mostly because it lacks the needed combat buffs in exchange for a plethora of heals. You'd need some real spellcasting, such as that from a Cleric, to make the Monk useful; even then, although in execution it may seem as it sucks, Sacred Fist pretty much does that in Core+Completes D&D.

Cicciograna
2009-11-13, 06:24 AM
Unless going Swordsage, I'd meld Fist of Zuoken and Monk for spectacular effects and effective wuxia-style Monks.

BobVosh
2009-11-13, 06:25 AM
While scared fist kinda sucked, enlightened fist worked pretty well. Not perfect but pretty good.

Roderick_BR
2009-11-13, 06:33 AM
Why not Wisdom? I mean, it's already a spellcasting stat, especially for divine casters.
And divine works fine with "self-enlightement".

And why not healing? They already have some healing powers. To use on others, they could reflavor it like ki/chakra flow or pressure points, or whatever.

But really... use Tome of Battle and replace the monk with the swordsage. Sorry for repeating it again.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-13, 06:38 AM
Maybe just give them a domain of devine. Thats it. It can be used up to 3/day, and has all spell levels. I think that that could let it not be huge but enough to give a boost.

Wait, they get all of Divine Domains at 1st or with usual progression of cleric?

I mean, Shapechange at level 1 does fix the monk.

Roc Ness
2009-11-13, 07:57 AM
What if you turned the monk into some sort of divine (or psionic) equivalent of the duskblade?

dsmiles
2009-11-13, 08:04 AM
I still don't understand what everyone's deal is with monks. They're a great class filled with a ton of abilities.

If played correctly, monks can be a very useful asset to the party. Need a scout that can run down the hall and back in less than 1 round? Call the monk. Need someone that can do damage to a golem (DR x/Adamantine) when the party lost their equipment? Call the monk. Need a ninja? CALL THE MONK. People underestimate the abilities of a monk simply because they don't know how to use a monk properly. Monks are extremely versatile and have a wide skill set and a goodly amount of skill points.

MONKZ RULE!

P.S. Giving monks spells, in my humble opinion, would not overpower the monk class, per se, but may unbalance the game mechanic as a whole. There are enough casters out there that we don't need another.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-13, 08:05 AM
You may wish to check out the monk guide I once did (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704).
In essence, you can simply try to get the best level 1-4 buffs for a monk from both arcane and divine spell lists (including ranger and paladin) with the simple use of UMD.
This would need no houseruling (only making sure that the players can spend their wbl as they would like).

Also, in case you intend to give your monks a delayed spell progression, the guide provides plenty of ideas what spells fit monks best.

- Giacomo

Be sure to show him how well it works in practice by linking him to The Monkening.

Ecalsneerg
2009-11-13, 08:11 AM
If played correctly, monks can be a very useful asset to the party. Need a scout that can run down the hall and back in less than 1 round? Call the monk.
... run down a hall? Traps, man, traps! Use Divination if you really need to see what's there.


Need someone that can do damage to a golem (DR x/Adamantine) when the party lost their equipment? Call the monk.
Well, I can't disagree that monks are more relevant in a situation that calls to be unarmoured and unarmed. Thing is, how often is that, barring DM screwing or PC idiocy?

Need a ninja? CALL THE MONK.
Or maybe a rogue? (I'll ignore the actual ninja class, rogue is fun!)

dsmiles
2009-11-13, 08:15 AM
I don't believe in the ninja class, some of the stuff in 3.5 was a BIG mistake. But consider the feat (I forget the name, I think it's in Complete Adventurer) that allows a monk to multiclass with rogue. Now THAT'S a ninja. But being unarmed and unarmored comes up more often than you would believe, though.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-13, 08:16 AM
If played correctly, monks can be a very useful asset to the party. Need a scout that can run down the hall and back in less than 1 round? Call the monk.
That's a rather specific niche to fill.

Pity about the lack of trapfinding, though.


Need someone that can do damage to a golem (DR x/Adamantine) when the party lost their equipment? Call the monk.
You forgot to mention the other thing the monk can do: die at the hands of a golem after losing its equipment.

Also, sorcerer.


People underestimate the abilities of a monk simply because they don't know how to use a monk properly. Monks are extremely versatile and have a wide skill set and a goodly amount of skill points.
People with more experience than you dislike the Monk, not because they do not know how to use the class properly, but because the Monk class is poorly designed.

Look in my sig. The Monkening is a playtest of a monk in a core only party. How well does the Monk do in your opinion?

Or perhaps you will show us how it is done, with a stunning monk build of your own?


MONKZ RULE!

I don't think so, Tim.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-13, 08:20 AM
If played correctly, monks can be a very useful asset to the party. Need a scout that can run down the hall and back in less than 1 round? Call the monk.

Or a Scout... Monks don't start getting really fast till Mid-level.


Need someone that can do damage to a golem (DR x/Adamantine) when the party lost their equipment? Call the monk.

Warblade or Swordsage or Crusader do it too.
They can all choose Stone power Maneuvers that ignore DR.



I don't believe in the ninja class, some of the stuff in 3.5 was a BIG mistake. But consider the feat (I forget the name, I think it's in Complete Adventurer) that allows a monk to multiclass with rogue. Now THAT'S a ninja. But being unarmed and unarmored comes up more often than you would believe, though.

You could just be the illumian race:
They are human variant that can multiclass freely with Monk and Paladin. Yes, they get that ability.

SparkMandriller
2009-11-13, 08:25 AM
Need someone that can do damage to a golem (DR x/Adamantine) when the party lost their equipment?

Those things have like 30 strength dude. Monk's not gonna be friends with you after you send him to get smashed by one of them.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-13, 08:27 AM
Those things have like 30 strength dude. Monk's not gonna be friends with you after you send him to get smashed by one of them.
Plus, Monks kinda need their gear alot more than casters do.
Mr. Sorceror or Druid doesn't get bonus 6th level spells, but he can still blast.

Heck, Mr. Druid still has Wild Shape.

SparkMandriller
2009-11-13, 08:33 AM
He can't even make the golem waste its turn laughing, because they're incapable of laughter. Well, except maybe flesh golems. But flesh golems only have a DR of 5, so they're no good for showing off the monks awesome DR breaking abilities. Awesome awesome ability, that is.

Boci
2009-11-13, 08:33 AM
Plus, Monks kinda need their gear alot more than casters do.
Mr. Sorceror or Druid doesn't get bonus 6th level spells, but he can still blast.

Heck, Mr. Druid still has Wild Shape.

Grease, lesser orb of (insert golem's elemental vulnerability).

dsmiles
2009-11-13, 08:40 AM
You guys are too concerned with power gaming. It's called a role-playing game for a reason. If you want uber-power go play GURPS.

Monks don't generally carry gear, except for maybe some food and a rope, and a monk's AC bonus, Wisdom bonus and Dexterity bonus kind of make up for the golem's Strength.

Warblade, Swordsage and Crusader get Improved Unarmed Strike that they can use with their abilities? Hrm...news to me.

And for you, mr pharoah's fist...exactly how much experience do you have?
I've been playing monks since Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (the Basic set didn't have monks, but did have the Elf class and the Dwarf class), and they have been useful in more situations than Bob the Vanilla Fighter.

SparkMandriller
2009-11-13, 08:50 AM
You guys are too concerned with power gaming. It's called a role-playing game for a reason. If you want uber-power go play GURPS.

You're the one that started talking about monks vs golems. What did you mean by that, if you didn't mean rolling dice and so on? Is there some sort of special RP fight that I haven't heard about? Maybe one that monks get special bonuses at?


Monks don't generally carry gear, except for maybe some food and a rope, and a monk's AC bonus, Wisdom bonus and Dexterity bonus kind of make up for the golem's Strength.

So level 16 monk, right? He started with 18 dexterity and 18 wisdom, right, and he's put 4 points from level ups into wisdom, 'cause that's pretty monky.

So he starts with 10 AC, gets 3 from his monk levels, gets 4 from dexterity, and gets 6 from wisdom, right? That's AC 23.

You know what an iron golem's attack bonus is?

IT'S 23.

Eldariel
2009-11-13, 08:53 AM
You guys are too concerned with power gaming. It's called a role-playing game for a reason. If you want uber-power go play GURPS.

This comment is out-of-place considering this thread is about class power. It's an RPG, but it contains quite a bit of combat (the more the closer to the roots you go; remember Chainmail?) and as such, a class's prowess in combat is a very relevant indicator of its abilities, especially since most class features are specifically geared towards combat so it seems like the most relevant difference between the classes (beyond skill points, which Monk fails at).


Monks don't generally carry gear, except for maybe some food and a rope, and a monk's AC bonus, Wisdom bonus and Dexterity bonus kind of make up for the golem's Strength.

Monk's AC bonus, Wis and Dex are never going to be high enough without Gear to make the Golem miss on anything but 1. Sorry, there's just no way in hell you'll have chance in that fight.

Monk needs an item to fly. Otherwise he's just gonna sit it out vs. things like Dragons, casters and every relevant opponent outdoors (nice Shurikens; oh, right, they're equipment too and suck to boot). Monks need an item to hit incorporeals. Otherwise he's just going to sit it out vs. incorporeals. Monks need a lot of stat boosters as you just demonstrated; you need Str, Dex, Con & Wis boosters to really get anything out of your class features, especially since combat maneuvers are Str-derived so if you focus on a non-Str offense, you pretty much give up the best thing your bonus feats give you.

Monks also need stuff like Bracers of Armor, Vest of Resistance, etc. Monks are pretty much the most gear-dependent class in the game. The only thing they don't need is a weapon. They instead need a much more expensive Amulet of Mighty Fists, or if your DM is kind, a Necklace of Natural Weapons. Money Monks save:
- ~50gp in weapon
- ~200gp in armor (or ~1500gp for heavy armor types; more for Mithril)

That's it. They still need the magical enhancements and so on, and have to get them in bodyslot taking more expensive guise to keep up. Monks end up paying more for their stuff than the others.


Warblade, Swordsage and Crusader get Improved Unarmed Strike that they can use with their abilities? Hrm...news to me.

They don't need IUS. They provoke and then hit. Doesn't change that they can still deal solid damage to the Iron Golem. That said, without equipment even they need to be of much higher level than the Golem to beat it. Unarmed Swordsage would probably be the best here.


And for you, mr pharoah's fist...exactly how much experience do you have?
I've been playing monks since Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (the Basic set didn't have monks, but did have the Elf class and the Dwarf class), and they have been useful in more situations than Bob the Vanilla Fighter.

AD&D 2ed (I'm assuming?) is a different game. Don't derive class ability assessments from another game. That might really be where the disconnection is; they weren't that bad in AD&D and you didn't need that much equipment in AD&D. 3.0 is a very different animal.



@OP: Well, while casting would help, given that Sacred Fist, Tashalatora and Enlightened Fist already exist, I'd just use the existing "fixes" instead to achieve the same goal; Monk/Cleric, Monk/Psychic Warrior and Monk/Wizard are all fine builds and do just that.

Gnomo
2009-11-13, 08:53 AM
I don't think adding class features from other classes is a good solution for the monk, it's too much of stepping on someone else's side, I prefer to just make what the monk has useful, this is the monk I use in my games:

The Monk
Hit die: d10
Skill points: 5 + Intelligence modifier.

{table=main]Level|BAB|Special
1|+1|Bonus feat, flurry of blows, unarmed strike
2|+2|Bonus feat, evasion
3|+3|Still mind
4|+4|Ki strike (magic), slow fall 20 ft.
5|+5|Purity of body
6|+6|Bonus feat, slow fall 30 ft.
7|+7|Wholeness of body
8|+8|Slow fall 40 ft.
9|+9|Improved evasion
10|+10|Ki strike (lawful), slow fall 50 ft.
11|+11|Diamond body, greater flurry
12|+12|Abundant step 1/day, slow fall 60 ft.
13|+13|Diamond soul, Improved wholeness of body
14|+14|Abundant step 2/day, Slow fall 70 ft.
15|+15|Quivering palm 1/day
16|+16|Abundant step 3/day, Ki strike (adamantine), slow fall 80 ft.
17|+17|Timeless body, tongue of the sun and moon
18|+18|Abundant step 4/day, Slow fall 90 ft.
19|+19|Greater wholeness of body, Empty body
20|+20|Abundant step 5/day, Perfect self, slow fall any distance[/table]

What's in red I have changed it from the original monk, the AC bonus and the speed improvement stays the same, but flurry of blows has changed:

Full BAB (ex): The monk has full BAB progression (like a Fighter).

With this the monk has grapple as a real option, even if he doesn't go the grapple route this is useful to ensure the landing of the first attacks or even adding a little PA to pump the damage, options are good and this make some of them viable.

Flurry of blows (ex): The monk can make an attack as a swift action or an immediate action, this attacks has a -2 penalty.

The purpose of this is to make the extra attacking speed to come into play with his increased speed, is no use to have the best movement speed of the game if your best feature cannot be combined with it, now, this attack as a swift action can be used after a charge or a standard attack, and as an inmmediate action can be used as a free AoO or even in combination with one.

Wholeness of body (ex): Manipulating his own metabolism the monk can slowly cure his wounds, at 7th level the monk can get Fast Healing 2 for a number of rounds equal to his class level, this ability can be used as a swift action and stopped as a free action, rounds not need to be consecutive. At 13rd monk level the Fast Healing improves to 4 and at 19th monk level it improves to 6.

Fast healing strike me as much more in line with what the monk is than plain healing. The total amount of healing is the same as the old feature, but now this is started as a swift action rather than standard. every 6 levels thereafter the fast healing amount improves by 2... a 20th level monk can recover 120 hit points with this, much better than 40 i guess.

greater flurry (ex): At 11th level the monk no longer have a -2 penalty for using a flurry of blows attack.

Yeah, I didn't wanted to go overboard with the extra attacks now that it has full BAB, so just removing the penalty I think is good enough

Abundant step (su): Starting at 12th level a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, once per day. Her caster level for this effect is one-half her monk level (rounded down). Every 2 levels thereafter the monk can make use of this ability one extra time per day.

Cause you know once per day is never enough.

Quivering palm: ...

Just like the old Quivering palm, but once per day instead of once per week... i mean, once per week is just stupid and useless.

Perfect self: ... . Besides the monk gains Damage Reduction 3 / chaotic.

Just a little bit of help, although the d10 has already done a lot for the monk at this level.

Optimystik
2009-11-13, 08:55 AM
It's gonna take a lot more than that to make monks useful, let alone overpowered.

However, it does help. A little.

Really, you're better off giving them access to psychic warrior powers. Either add the power progression to the class and cut a bit of the idiocy inherent in their class abilities (like Slow Fall), or just add them on as-is.

MUCH better, that.

Psionics and Monk abilities go hand in hand anyway. "I am my source of power, I've unlocked the potential of my mind through training." Kashalatora makes monks playable without breaking them, it should just be a base ability.

Didn't they roll monks and psionics together in 4th Ed.?

Starbuck_II
2009-11-13, 08:57 AM
You guys are too concerned with power gaming. It's called a role-playing game for a reason. If you want uber-power go play GURPS.

Monks don't generally carry gear, except for maybe some food and a rope, and a monk's AC bonus, Wisdom bonus and Dexterity bonus kind of make up for the golem's Strength.

One of these is not like the other.

Either Monks are good at roleplaying at being able to fight a Golem or they actually can (power gaming). Choose, but choose wisely.


Warblade, Swordsage and Crusader get Improved Unarmed Strike that they can use with their abilities? Hrm...news to me.

They are called Improvised weapons. Unless everyone in party is bald, naked (no clothes), and there is no splinters in any wood (unlikely).
Heck, you can take -4 penalty to deal lethal Damage with unarmed strike. At least Warblade and Crusaders are Proficient in unarmed strike (yes Monks aren't sadly).

Sure, you might not deal alot of damage, but you'll hit more often than the monk (Monks have 3/4th bab, Warblades/Crusaders are full).



And for you, mr pharoah's fist...exactly how much experience do you have?
I've been playing monks since Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (the Basic set didn't have monks, but did have the Elf class and the Dwarf class), and they have been useful in more situations than Bob the Vanilla Fighter.

Monks in 2E were better than 3E (remember immunity to non-magical weapons at higher levels?)
Did any of those Fighters specialize? I mean, that was most [Fighter's] their power.

Dimers
2009-11-13, 09:00 AM
You guys are too concerned with power gaming.

Well, that's the modus operandi of this forum. Hey, look on it as an opportunity to practice being sure of your own opinion while other people disagree -- that contributes to self-esteem. If other people want to kill time trying to "prove" something that varies from DM to DM (given what they allow in the game and what they focus on) ... let 'em. No skin off your nose. :smallsmile:

Reinboom
2009-11-13, 09:01 AM
Warblade, Swordsage and Crusader get Improved Unarmed Strike that they can use with their abilities? Hrm...news to me.

Swordsage is usually the only one considered to be the monk replacement.
Page 20, under Adaptation, in the Tome of Battle suggests the unarmed combat variant.


You guys are too concerned with power gaming. It's called a role-playing game for a reason. If you want uber-power go play GURPS.

Monks don't generally carry gear, except for maybe some food and a rope, and a monk's AC bonus, Wisdom bonus and Dexterity bonus kind of make up for the golem's Strength.
GURPS calls itself a role-playing game as well. So does World of Darkness.
Ah, games. They make you take roles, and play them.
I'm all with you there, you should be role playing. Now excuse me as I turn on my NES and role play Mario as Mario wall jumps glitch through the game.

Gnomo
2009-11-13, 09:11 AM
nevermind.

Indon
2009-11-13, 09:14 AM
If you gave the Monk full Cleric spellcasting, and everything that entails (not turning), they still wouldn't be as powerful as a Druid (though, they may become more powerful than a Cleric). They'd be a Tier 1 class, but not overpowered in that tier.

They'd be as powerful as a full caster, of course, which for some games can indeed be overpowered.

So, really, depends on your game.

If you want a Tier 1 monk, give them full divine spellcasting from the Cleric or Druid lists. Tier 2, full Psionic abilities. Tier 3, partial spellcasting or Maneuvers. Tier 4, optimize a vanilla monk or boost their BAB to full, or give them Incarnum access or something. There're a lot of ways to boost a T5 class to T4.

As it stands, Monk is a Tier 5 class, competitive with most other nonspellcasters (particularly in a game without heavy optimization) that people actually like because it's got nice flavor and fun abilities, and as a result it gets little but scorn on this forum.

That is to say, monk discussion here does not lend itself to being productive. Instead, it lends itself to a handful of rehashed stock answers that basically boil down to "Replace the class with something more powerful and pretend it's a monk".

So rather than listening to 20 people ranting about their own opinions of what classes are powerful enough to make the cut in their game vs. what classes are too powerful or whatever, just bear in mind that class feature power after Tier 4 is exponential - giving Tier 3 abilities to a Tier 5 class will make that class a normal Tier 3 class, not particularly overpowered. Ditto with other tiers. Only Tiers 4 and 5 have significant overlap in that regard.

(To explain the tiers in brief: Tier 1 is unrestricted full casters like Wizard, Cleric, and Druid. Tier 2 is Psions, and restricted full casters like Sorcerors. Tier 3 is demi-casters like the Bard, and alternate systems which simulate casting such as Maneuvers. Tier 4 is most high-damage noncasters and noncasting subsystems. Tier 5 is mostly noncasters who aren't high-damage. Truenamers aren't on the list.)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-13, 10:15 AM
And for you, mr pharoah's fist...exactly how much experience do you have?
I've been playing monks since Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (the Basic set didn't have monks, but did have the Elf class and the Dwarf class), and they have been useful in more situations than Bob the Vanilla Fighter.
I will not brag about my own credentials, which you have no way of verifying, nor will I talk about my abilities for I can exaggerate without being proven wrong.

I shall refer you to other people who will give a less biased view of my opinions. If you want a reference, Eldariel, Pheonix Rivers, Keld Denar, and Doc Roc will be happy to provide one.

Now, let me ask you something. You say you can do well against a golem without gear. Fine. Roll up a 3.5e monk and have someone DM a fight against a CR appropriate golem. Let's see how it goes.



What's in red I have changed it from the original monk, the AC bonus and the spee improvement stays the same, but flurry of blows has changed:

You have given the monk 5+Int mod skill points/level. Did you mean 4?

Starbuck_II
2009-11-13, 10:57 AM
Now, let me ask you something. You say you can do well against a golem without gear. Fine. Roll up a 3.5e monk and have someone DM a fight against a CR appropriate golem. Let's see how it goes.


I thought he said he can roleplaying a monk who fights a golem: He was against the power gaming of actually doing it.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-13, 11:03 AM
Oddly enough, roleplaying a fighter who wrestled a golem with his bare hands was implied to be undoable.

Arakune
2009-11-13, 11:09 AM
So you don't see how this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hammer.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognitionDefensive.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognitionOffensive.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/prescienceOffensive.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/skate.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/synesthete.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htmhttp://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/biofeedback.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/concealingAmorpha.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/detectHostileIntent.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyAdaptationSpecified.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/featLeech.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/levitatePsionic.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePain.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/thoughtShield.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bodyAdjustment.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bodyPurification.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/darkvisionPsionic.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispelPsionics.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/keenEdgePsionic.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mentalBarrier.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindTrap.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePainForced.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/ubiquitousVision.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dimensionDoorPsionic.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicFeedback.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyAdaptation.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/freedomofMovementPsionic.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/intellectFortress.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/powerResistance.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/trueSeeingPsionic.htm) could make a monk a more viable combatant?

No, because that's called a Psiwarrior :smallamused:. You could give it tashalatora and be an Monk2/PsiWarrior N, but that's more like an PsiWarrior with flurry of blows, wis to AC, 103 PP and late entry and less 6th level powers.

Cyanic
2009-11-13, 11:18 AM
Yeah giving them 1/2 spell advancement as a cleric would be fine.


Monk cannot be overpowered.

T.G. Oskar
2009-11-13, 11:27 AM
No, because that's called a Psiwarrior :smallamused:. You could give it tashalatora and be an Monk2/PsiWarrior N, but that's more like an PsiWarrior with flurry of blows, wis to AC, 103 PP and late entry and less 6th level powers.

Uh...nearly half of the powers mentioned by Lycan aren't PsyWar powers. They are Psion/Wilder powers, some of them which can be gained through Expanded Knowledge, but that's nerfing your own feats for extra powers, and you can only get up to 5th level powers, IIRC.

What Lycan meant was if Psionics really enhanced the Monk's capabilities, not if PsyWar was a better Monk than the Monk. If you notice closely, only about 2 or 3 powers are actually pointless; the rest work to enhance the ability of a Monk.

Besides, a PsyWar has better things to do than trying to futilely punch with his or her fists. For example, it makes a superb natural weapon user only dwarfed by the Totemist (see King of Smack build), or an equally good archer. In fact, compared to the Paladin, Ranger, Hexblade and Soulborn (and I'd dare say even Duskblade, but this one is also quite good), the Psychic Warrior is one of the best gish-types because most of its powers are really useful to improve the vital points of a melee combatant and actually allow it to stand up against the few really worthwhile meleers (ToB classes, Totemist, Barbarian)

InkEyes
2009-11-13, 12:29 PM
You guys are too concerned with power gaming. It's called a role-playing game for a reason. If you want uber-power go play GURPS.

Since when is talking about the relative power level of a class in a thread about increasing the power of said class "being too concerned?" Roleplaying is my favorite part about D&D, and even then I can easily see that some classes are mechanically weaker than others. Also, you realize GURPS stands for Generic Universal Role Playing System, right? Just because the mechanics are there to do more things doesn't mean something is suddenly a tactical war game or whatever.

Look at a Monk's needed ability scores: they're a melee-based class, so Strength is necessary. (Bonus damage and bonus to hit that helps make up for the Monk's 3/4 attack bonus.) They can't wear lots of armor without losing class features like crazy, so Dexterity is a necessity because it helps boost their AC. The lower AC and front-line tendency means a good Constitution is useful. Plus, flurry of blows is a full-attack action, so they'll need to sit there for a round before they can use that high base speed to high-tail it to a cleric, leaving them open to attacks. (More HP and a higher AC are key in this scenario.) But these are all important for any sort of class that sits near the front lines. What about the typical dump stats for meleers?

Well, Wisdom is a definite no-no as a dump. Tons of class abilities are based off it, including another necessary boost to AC. I guess that leaves Intelligence and Charisma, right? But what if you want skill points, you know, to put into hide+move silently and maybe spot+listen? You wouldn't be a good scout without any of that.

What if you feel like mimicking the standard class features of other classes with some cross-class ranks in Use Magic Device? What if you want to move through enemy squares and flank some critters (it does help you hit more often, after all)? Well, Tumble is another good skill to have then.

Sure, a 4+int in skill points per level isn't bad. You might even have enough points for those skills, but what if you want to use some of your class features, like say, Tongue of the Sun and Moon? Well, then you'll probably want Diplomacy, right? Maybe some ranks in a few other skills for synergy bonuses?

This brings up another problem then if you want to be a good negotiator (and why wouldn't you? It's a role-playing game, and interacting with NPCs can be hard without some ranks in Diplomacy) or Use Magic Device effectively, you'll need a decent Charisma score. But wait... that's all your ability scores! Well then, you'll just have to choose a dump stat (probably two considering you absolutely need 3-4 good to above average ability scores) and be ineffectual at doing something(s) granted to you by your own class features!

The Monk, as is, is a mechanically weak class, and their dependency on multiple ability scores just scratches the surface of their problems. That's not to say I hate it, no. I absolutely love the flavor of some of the weakest classes out there. I would totally play a Truenamer in a game if the mechanics the class was based on didn't make it frustrating to play without devoting lots of feats and money to it, Monk too.

But these classes require fixes, and that's what's happening in this thread. Why protest the changes when you can make a class (you clearly love) better and more accessible to newer people who can't/don't know how to dive into numerous sourcebooks for ways to tweak the class? Rebuilding a class is time-consuming short-term, but the long-term payoff is a more flexible and fun experience. Is that bad?

Arakune
2009-11-13, 01:27 PM
Uh...nearly half of the powers mentioned by Lycan aren't PsyWar powers. They are Psion/Wilder powers, some of them which can be gained through Expanded Knowledge, but that's nerfing your own feats for extra powers, and you can only get up to 5th level powers, IIRC.


The best buffs are shared bettween both psion and psiwarrior and Expanded Knowledge isn't much of a nerf.

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-13, 01:30 PM
If played correctly, monks can be a very useful asset to the party. Need a scout that can run down the hall and back in less than 1 round? Call the Totemist/Incarnate/Warblade/Swordsage/PsiWar Need someone that can do damage to a golem (DR x/Adamantine) when the party lost their equipment? Call the Warblade/Swordsage/PsiWar Need a ninja? CALL THE INCARNATE/TOTEMIST/SWORDSAGE/PSIWAR. People underestimate the abilities of a monk simply because they don't know how to use a monk properly. Monks are extremely versatile and have a wide skill set and a goodly amount of skill points.

MONKZ RULE!

P.S. Giving monks spells, in my humble opinion, would not overpower the monk class, per se, but may unbalance the game mechanic as a whole. There are enough casters out there that we don't need another.

Fixed. that last part is BS BTW. A large number of classes could be fixed by giving them Seul Archanamach specllasting abilities.

sofawall
2009-11-13, 01:42 PM
You guys are too concerned with power gaming. It's called a role-playing game for a reason. If you want uber-power go play GURPS.

Monks don't generally carry gear, except for maybe some food and a rope, and a monk's AC bonus, Wisdom bonus and Dexterity bonus kind of make up for the golem's Strength.

Warblade, Swordsage and Crusader get Improved Unarmed Strike that they can use with their abilities? Hrm...news to me.

And for you, mr pharoah's fist...exactly how much experience do you have?
I've been playing monks since Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (the Basic set didn't have monks, but did have the Elf class and the Dwarf class), and they have been useful in more situations than Bob the Vanilla Fighter.

Monks get bonus to stats? Oh, sorry, you meant they get those stats to AC.

Anyway, a little thought experiment.

Monks need str to hit things, right? So do fighters. Monks and fighter therefore have equal str.
Monk needs con to live, right? So do fighter.
Fighter likes dex for AC. Monk likes Wis for AC.
Fighter likes int for skills. Monk likes dex for ac.
Fighter does not care about his wisdom, and uses the money he would have spent boosting it on boosting str. Monk likes int for skill points.
Neither monk nor fighter care about charisma. Fighter boosts con, monk str.

So, assuming they both have equal stat distributions according to priority, with monk and fighter:
STR: Monk=Fighter
DEX:Fighter>Monk
CON:Fighter>Monk
WIS:Fighter<<Monk
INT: Fighter>Monk
CHA:Fighter=Monk

Emmerask
2009-11-13, 01:50 PM
because everyone makes a str monk :smallfrown:



Fighter does not care about his wisdom, and uses the money he would have spent boosting it on boosting str.

Not a very valid argument because fighter also likes to wear an armor a weapon and a shield (or two weapons or a 2h weapon) and those things need to be bought too last time I checked ;)

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-13, 01:55 PM
because everyone makes a str monk :smallfrown:They really should; otherwise, they're gonna suck when it comes to doing...well...anything. Lower BAB means they need higher Str to compensate. Lower weapon damage (ie, Power Attack doesn't work well, and they have difficulty adding weapon enhancements) means they need higher Str to compensate. Most of their bonus feats rely on Str. Almost everything they do proactively in a fight relies on Str (Trip, Bull-Rush, Disarm, Sunder, Hitting, Damage, Grappling), which means they need Str.

Unless you're suggesting UMD? In which case they'll need Str AND Cha (which they didn't even need before).

Tavar
2009-11-13, 01:57 PM
Not a very valid argument because fighter also likes to wear an armor a weapon and a shield (or two weapons or a 2h weapon) and those things need to be bought too last time I checked ;)

But they're cheaper than what the monk needs to buy in order to stay within shouting distance, therefore advantage Fighter.

sofawall
2009-11-13, 01:57 PM
because everyone makes a str monk :smallfrown:



Not a very valid argument because fighter also likes to wear an armor a weapon and a shield (or two weapons or a 2h weapon) and those things need to be bought too last time I checked ;)

The fighter bought his entire gear for under 100 gp. I don't think that is relevant in a discussion of stat-boosters costing at minimum 4000.

EDIT: Unless you're talking about magic equipment, in which case he gets weapons and armour cheaper, so advantage goes very strongly towards fighter.

Emmerask
2009-11-13, 02:02 PM
no Im suggesting a monk/swordsage build with shadow blade feat (dex for dmg) and relying on AoOs acombat reflexes nd synergy with stormguard warrior ;)

my monk 2/ fighter 2/ swordsage 4/ kensai 7 (no mic)/master of nine does pretty well in my current campaign :-P

sofawall
2009-11-13, 02:07 PM
no Im suggesting a monk/swordsage build with shadow blade feat (dex for dmg) and relying on AoOs acombat reflexes nd synergy with stormguard warrior ;)

my monk 2/ fighter 2/ swordsage 4/ kensai 7 (no mic)/master of nine does pretty well in my current campaign :-P

That is not a monk. That has as much fighter as monk. You can make an argument saying fighters are better because of that build.

If you're saying monk-style classes are good, nobody would argue. Swordsage, Psychic Warrior, Totemist, they all rock.

Monk, as a class, does not.

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-13, 04:04 PM
That is not a monk. That has as much fighter as monk. You can make an argument saying fighters are better because of that build.

If you're saying monk-style classes are good, nobody would argue. Swordsage, Psychic Warrior, Totemist, they all rock.

Monk, as a class, does not.

+1. The style is nice, as is the taste, but the crunch of the actual class is rather underwhelming.


That 2d10 damage and 5 attacks/round? A fighter can get the same damage and then some. No loopholes or special tricks, just feats and ability scores. That Featherfall wannabe of a class feature? Anyone can get an ability that's instantly better by taking a feat or playing a variant race (Shape Soulmeld and Silverbrow Human, respectively). That DDoor 1/day? Shape Soulmeld gives it to you at will (if at a shorter range), and Martial study can get 50ft 1/encounter or better.

That Save or Die 1/week? There's too many to list. That AC bonus? Armor actually beats it in a straight-up contest of efficiency, and concealment works better than both. That speed bonus? Again, Shape Soulmeld (Incarnum is so useful) and a race can get it (Duskling). Stunning Fist? Anyone who wants to can take the feat once they meet the requirements, and there's ways to get extra uses/day, or you can just be an Incarnate and bind the Incarnate Weapon to your Arms and get it at will as a Move action with a much higher save DC.

The Unarmed damage can be replicated via a feat too.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-13, 04:09 PM
That is not a monk. That has as much fighter as monk.

And even more Swordsage.

Doug Lampert
2009-11-13, 05:46 PM
And even more Swordsage.

Yep, his demonstration that monks are viable is a Swordsage (most people's first choice for a monk replacement) with a two level monk dip.

Ecalsneerg
2009-11-13, 06:03 PM
You guys are too concerned with power gaming. It's called a role-playing game for a reason. If you want uber-power go play GURPS.

Exactly. I want to roleplay as a badass kung fu master who can hang with any well-armed man using nothing but his fists, and hang just as well.

The monk class doesn't do that. It's just as easy to roleplay a wise, skilled martial artist using another class, and you'll pull your weight in the party a lot more.

Darcand
2009-11-14, 01:19 AM
Okay, after reading the responses I have settled on giving the Monk the same spell progression as the Bard and making him a spontanious divine caster. Thank you everyone for your imput!