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View Full Version : Rope Trick + HHH... ??? ..profit?



Figment_
2009-11-13, 10:21 AM
So, I've been curious about this for a while now, so curious I came out of lurk mode to ask about this.

From SRD entry on Rope Trick:


Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but itís invisible, and even creatures that can see the window canít see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space.

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

From SRD entry on HHH:



A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary. It is constructed of finely tanned leather, and the straps have brass hardware and buckles. It has two side pouches, each of which appears large enough to hold about a quart of material. In fact, each is like a bag of holding(emphasis mine)

And lastly, SRD on Bag of Holding"



If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process.

I see all the theoretical talk about full casters and rope trick inevitably shows up as the mid level (i.e., before they have their own plane) way for the arcanist to only have as many encounters in a day as his/her spells allow. " I just pop a rope trick and wait until I have spells back"

I then lurk over to the Test of Spite or other game threads here and peek at people's character sheets. Quite a few of the full casters have their trusty HHH for pulling out metamagic rods and similar. Doesn't seem to mesh for me. How are these same folks when resting avoiding getting sucked into the Astral?

And It doesn't stop there. I don't have access to MIC here @ work, but don't the things like the rod of wands and the various wand sheaths in weapons and such use extradimentional space? Mage's Mansion? Extradimensional. Tiny hut isn't actually, checked that one myself.

And what about Maze?
You banish the subject into an extradimensional labyrinth of force planes. Astral banishment for anyone with a haversack?


I suppose it could be DM fiat, or just missing that detail, or what have you, but, as RAW, doesnt that limit the arcanist a bit? Either you get your rest safely in a rope trick, or you get to have your items at your fingertips.

And to clarify, I'm not in the "full casters who are optimized are cheese" ranks, nor do I think that a moderately optimized Fighter/Warblade/??? will completely fall behind in my games. The monk is a trap, though.

Thoughts?

jiriku
2009-11-13, 10:34 AM
Rope trick is actually a very limited spell, for precisely the reasons you outlined.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-13, 10:38 AM
It could mean that each is like a bag of holding in regard to holding things. The text is vague on what exactly "like" means.

The use of the word "like" by WotC has resulted in numerous other ambiguities as well, as people debate how "like" you have to be to something to trigger specific effects.

Optimystik
2009-11-13, 10:42 AM
Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a) had this to say on the subject:

"I recommend that you ignore this reference. Your campaign won't be improved if rope trick effects implode when someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside. A Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion should likewise prove benign if someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside."

Tyndmyr
2009-11-13, 10:47 AM
The only specific effect is when a bag of holding and portable hole are combined. Yes, the rope trick/other extradimensional space is reputed to be "dangerous", but it's flavor text, and has no listed effects.

Thus, any effects are pure DM fiat, and can't be accounted for in optimization.

Figment_
2009-11-13, 11:00 AM
The use of the word "like" by WotC has resulted in numerous other ambiguities as well, as people debate how "like" you have to be to something to trigger specific effects.


"I recommend that you ignore this reference. Your campaign won't be improved if rope trick effects implode when someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside. A Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion should likewise prove benign if someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside."

Absolutely. It is a grey area with HHH, but the text after about the dire consequences of extradimentional shuffle sems to point to doom under RAI.
Then again, when is RAI and Spirit of the Game really what is discussed here? :)

I don't think I would ever throw my PC's under the exploding dimensional rift bus. I would probably have whichever item go inert within the other extradimensional space, at most.

Unless they start using the exploding dimensional rift bus against me, that is. Then they get the spurs.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-13, 11:06 AM
Well, that particular explosion relies on two equivalencies. First, that HHH is equivalent with a bag of holding. This actually has a line of test backing this interpretation up.

The second is that a rope trick is equivalent to a portable hole. This one is extremely sketchy, and has no actual justification whatsoever. Yes, it's an extradimensional space, but there are lots of those, and rope trick doesn't specify that it works like any particular item.

Furthermore, in the limited rules we do have about combining them, the exact effect does vary depending on precisely how they are combined. So, you can't reasonably extrapolate a "x happens every time you combine extradimensional spaces". It's pure DM fiat.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-13, 11:09 AM
Perhaps hazardous just means it gives you cancer.

Optimystik
2009-11-13, 11:29 AM
I will admit, it's a nice way of preventing the "15-minute adventuring day" without having enemies camp outside the rope trick. The party would have to leave their uber-bags outside the cubbyhole at night, exposing them to theft and damage.

Personally, I would go with one of the following:

1) The "inert" ruling. The bag's contents cannot be accessed while inside. Wizards should keep their spellbook outside it if they want to prepare spells once they wake up.

2) I'd have a 1 in 20 chance of a random item falling out of the bag in transit and lying on the ground in the same square as the rope trick. Depending on the item, it might be damaged in the fall (potion bottle), lie there unnoticed (mundane object) or attracted unwanted attention (corpse of comrade, magic item, etc.)

Clementx
2009-11-13, 11:38 AM
I don't use astral explosions to limit the stacking of extradimensional spaces. I have the containing one use the true weight/volume of the items. So if you throw a full Bag of Holding IV into a Portable Hole, the bottom of the hole contracts to about 2ft from the top, leaving only 32 cubic feet available for other items. The bag consumes 250 cubic feet of any space it is placed into.

Call it conservation of extradimensional mass.

sofawall
2009-11-13, 11:45 AM
Absolutely. It is a gray area with HHH, but the text after about the dire consequences of extradimensional shuffle seems to point to doom under RAI.
Then again, when is RAI and Spirit of the Game really what is discussed here? :)

I don't think I would ever throw my PC's under the exploding dimensional rift bus. I would probably have whichever item go inert within the other extradimensional space, at most.

Unless they start using the exploding dimensional rift bus against me, that is. Then they get the spurs.

Well, we actually have someone telling us what RAI is, under Rules of the Game, so I guess it doesn't do squat under both RAW and RAI, although RAMS says something should happen.

Figment_
2009-11-13, 11:47 AM
Perhaps hazardous just means it gives you cancer.

I think I would prefer the Astral

ericgrau
2009-11-13, 12:03 PM
Rope trick is actually a very limited spell, for precisely the reasons you outlined.

+1. It's only when the problems are overlooked does rope trick become a problem.

As for maze, a no-save you go boom and die seems like more of a mistake than anything. IMO it's safe to bring the haversack in that case, though technically that may not be so. Most DMs would probably say the same.

Optimystik
2009-11-13, 12:05 PM
+1. It's only when the problems are overlooked does rope trick become a problem.

By RAW, there are no problems whatsoever to overlook. RAI is given in the article I linked. Naturally, you can still rule otherwise at your kitchen table - but it becomes little more than DM fiat at that point.

ericgrau
2009-11-13, 12:57 PM
RAW is "hazardous". Examples of similar hazards in the rules are far from pleasant. This is more a matter of interpreting a rule in the way most favorable to you, which would be RAIAMFTM (RAI as most favorable to me). RAW OTOH is wide open on possibilities, but what we do know is that it isn't good. And any DM looking at similar examples in RAW would make a player think twice before trying it.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-13, 01:03 PM
Well, it does say creating an extradimensional space within a rope trick is hazardous, so unless you're working on item creation while resting or mazing your comrades, this shouldn't be an issue.

sofawall
2009-11-13, 01:05 PM
RAW is "hazardous". Examples of similar hazards in the rules are far from pleasant. This is more a matter of interpreting a rule in the way most favorable to you, which would be RAIAMFTM (RAI as most favorable to me). RAW OTOH is wide open on possibilities, but what we do know is that it isn't good. And any DM looking at similar examples in RAW would make a player think twice before trying it.

Any DM looking at similar examples is not looking at the actual rules text for the situation (instead looking at something different) and thus are exercising DM fiat.

ericgrau
2009-11-13, 01:07 PM
It's still hazardous no matter how you try to wriggle out of the situation. The examples given are more RAMS (rules as makes sense) than fiat. Saying "hazardous" is a mere slap on the wrist or otherwise no big deal, that's fiat.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-13, 01:13 PM
It's still hazardous no matter how you try to wriggle out of the situation. The examples given are more RAMS (rules as makes sense) than fiat. Saying "hazardous" is a mere slap on the wrist or otherwise no big deal, that's fiat.So you are using Craft Universal Item each night, then? I don't think I'd do that in a rope trick; not enough light to see properly by.

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-13, 01:15 PM
I find it funny that even the Portable Hole and Bag of Holding isn't affected by the rules. RAW, the interaction only happens when both items are used, using only one item doesn't trigger it. You can put a Portable Hole inside a Portable Hole ad nausea; so long as a Bag of Holding isn't introduced to the mix nothing will happen.


This is also the basis for creating an underground base for a kobold army. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6151.0)

sofawall
2009-11-13, 01:19 PM
It's still hazardous no matter how you try to wriggle out of the situation. The examples given are more RAMS (rules as makes sense) than fiat. Saying "hazardous" is a mere slap on the wrist or otherwise no big deal, that's fiat.

It is hazardous to bring a HHH into a Rope Trick, because it will cause this kind of discussion.

Also, how do you take an extradimensional space into another one? The space is extradimensional, so it isn't in your dimension, so just taking a HHH (which is clearly normal-dimensional) into a Rope Trick wouldn't be hazardous. Opening it might be, though.


So you are using Craft Universal Item each night, then? I don't think I'd do that in a rope trick; not enough light to see properly by.

The edition in question is 3.5. Warblade was mentioned, and the quotes in the OP are pulled from the 3.5 SRD.

TheCountAlucard
2009-11-13, 01:30 PM
Y'know, one of my players is playing a Healer, and he keeps OOC suggesting I let him purchase a bag of holding and a portable hole, just so he can hold them near each other and threaten close opponents with, "I'll do it!"

I'd rather not have that happen, partly because it'd be a violation of the Gentlemen's Agreement, and I'd actually rather not have it escalate... and partly because he suggests it almost every single game session. :smallannoyed: Plus, y'know, if he did that, he'd get sucked into the Astral Plane, and getting him out would mean a rather annoying side-quest, or some flavor of DM Fiat, or both.

So, I've told him that he'd need to make a Knowledge (arcana) check first, because otherwise it'd likely be a blatant example of metagaming (after all, knowing about magic items is covered under that skill). I've also made portable holes generally unavailable so far (not like the party has the cash to sink into buying one, anyway).

Optimystik
2009-11-13, 01:31 PM
RAW is "hazardous". Examples of similar hazards in the rules are far from pleasant. This is more a matter of interpreting a rule in the way most favorable to you, which would be RAIAMFTM (RAI as most favorable to me). RAW OTOH is wide open on possibilities, but what we do know is that it isn't good. And any DM looking at similar examples in RAW would make a player think twice before trying it.

A "hazard" is defined as a potential danger, not a certain one. It's hazardous for me to cross the street without looking both ways first, but that doesn't mean I'll get hit by a car. Since the RAW does not elaborate, any penalties you ascribe will be fiat, plain and simple.

ericgrau
2009-11-13, 01:39 PM
I find it funny that even the Portable Hole and Bag of Holding isn't affected by the rules. RAW, the interaction only happens when both items are used, using only one item doesn't trigger it.


Since the RAW does not elaborate, any penalties you ascribe will be fiat, plain and simple.

The same could be said of dying in D&D.

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-13, 01:44 PM
The same could be said of dying in D&D.

And your point is? RAW is ****ed up. Loopholes will be found no matter how well written the rules are (any and every example of sequence breaking in a video game is proof of this).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-13, 01:53 PM
The same could be said of dying in D&D.When you die, your HP are -10. Your nonlethal HP are 0. You're unconscious, which does have listed penalties.

Optimystik
2009-11-13, 02:03 PM
The same could be said of dying in D&D.

Wrong. Sstoopid said why.

And even if it didn't, both RAW and RAI are against the "divide by zero" penalty. So what's the point of enforcing it?

Edge of Dreams
2009-11-13, 02:10 PM
From what I've heard, the whole portable hole/bag of holding shenanigans are a hold-over from when one of the very first DM's (I think it was Gygax) got pissed off at a player trying to optimize/abuse (depending on how you look at it) his extradimensional storage. When the player tried putting a portable hole in a bag of holding, the DM got fed up and said it explodes and you lose everything, just to get back at the player, and that's been part of the rules ever since.

Just something to take into consideration when you think about houseruling something like this: Why is the rule there in the first place?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-11-13, 03:28 PM
Following along the "It's all Gygax's fault" line of reasoning, that very line in rope trick is simply a holdover from 2e:


When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space. The spellcaster and up to seven others can climb up the rope and disappear into this place of safety where no creature can find them. The rope can be taken into the extradimensional space if fewer than eight persons have climbed it; otherwise, it simply stays hanging in the air (extremely strong creatures might be able to remove it, at the DM's option). Spells cannot be cast across the interdimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if there were a 3-foot x 5-foot window centered on the rope. The persons in the extradimensional space must climb down prior to the end of the spell, or they are dropped from the height at which they entered the extradimensional space. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. Note that the rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space. Also note that creating or taking extradimensional spaces into an existing extradimensional space is hazardous. The material components of this spell are powdered corn extract and a twisted loop of parchment.

It used to be that putting any extradimensional space into any other caused issues, as Edge of Dreams noted. Now, the only defined rules interaction is a literal bag of holding in a literal portable hole or vice versa. Being treated "like" a bag of holding, so far as I know, means nothing more than "We don't want to rewrite what an extradimensional space is, so it's like that."

Stegyre
2009-11-13, 03:40 PM
I don't use astral explosions to limit the stacking of extradimensional spaces. I have the containing one use the true weight/volume of the items. So if you throw a full Bag of Holding IV into a Portable Hole, the bottom of the hole contracts to about 2ft from the top, leaving only 32 cubic feet available for other items. The bag consumes 250 cubic feet of any space it is placed into.

Call it conservation of extradimensional mass.
+1
Simple, elegant, and completely effective. This is good rule-making.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-13, 07:50 PM
When you die, your HP are -10. Your nonlethal HP are 0. You're unconscious, which does have listed penalties.

This assumes that 0 is a value that "nonlethal damage" can be defined as. It's not a universal interpretation, and I have extreme distaste for it due to interactions with Ferocity, Diehard, and similar abilities. An empty set does not contain zero, it contains nothing. IMO you do not have 0 nonlethal damage, but undefined/no nonlethal damage; since "0" is not part of the set of numbers that nonlethal damage can be defined as.

Bogardan_Mage
2009-11-13, 08:25 PM
A "hazard" is defined as a potential danger, not a certain one. It's hazardous for me to cross the street without looking both ways first, but that doesn't mean I'll get hit by a car. Since the RAW does not elaborate, any penalties you ascribe will be fiat, plain and simple.
But ascribing no penalties is clearly contrary to RAW. This is a textbook example of a situation in which assuming RAW in a DM-less vacuum is not helpful. When you start bringing up situations like this it defeats the point of referring only to RAW in the first place.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-13, 08:27 PM
But ascribing no penalties is clearly contrary to RAW. This is a textbook example of a situation in which assuming RAW in a DM-less vacuum is not helpful. When you start bringing up situations like this it defeats the point of referring only to RAW in the first place.Only if you're creating one inter/extradimensional space within another. Otherwise, it's all good (unless both a portable hole and a bag of holding are involved).

sofawall
2009-11-13, 08:29 PM
Only if you're creating one inter/extradimensional space within another. Otherwise, it's all good (unless both a portable hole and a bag of holding are involved).

Why do you keep saying that? What edition are you talking about?

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-13, 08:31 PM
Why do you keep saying that? What edition are you talking about?Oh. Wait. Nevermind. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropetrick.htm)

I guess as long as you don't open your HHH within the rope trick you should be good, since the extradimensional part of a HHH isn't technically in the same space-time coordinates as the HHH unless it's open...

sofawall
2009-11-13, 08:33 PM
Also, how do you take an extradimensional space into another one? The space is extradimensional, so it isn't in your dimension, so just taking a HHH (which is clearly normal-dimensional) into a Rope Trick wouldn't be hazardous. Opening it might be, though.


You may have missed this bit.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-13, 08:35 PM
You may have missed this bit.Yeah. I'm totally on the ball today.

I blame it on the badgers.