3.5 Psionics? Overpowered? Do you Play With?

[Ashiel]

Ok, before I go any further with this post, I need to explain a few things.

Firstly, I don't think 3.5 Psionics are overpowered. I've no such illusions. However, this is sort of a pole to the community here for their opinions. I've been carrying on a debate on the Paizo forums for a bit, and so far it's been difficult to say the least. So far, the nay-sayers have repeatedly tried to imply terrible imbalances with the system. They fail to provide evidence, or when they do, their evidence comes in the form of loaded examples, which I have quickly disproved.

They never bother to actually provide real examples, and most of them fall back into "it just is" arguments. Recently, they said that it doesn't matter because no one outside of my gaming group plays with psionics (which actually, I've found more while playing on OpenRPG or PbP games that did). I realize arguing on the internet is pointless, but people do read these threads and I want to make sure there's a fair representation of each side.

Here's the posts I've made for the debate, if you wish to check them out. I'm linking my posts only for sake of ease (I always try to quote what I'm addressing so it should be sufficient), but if you want to, I would highly encourage reading over my competition's posts to get a better idea of the debate.


Psion NPC Nova (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/products/paizo/psionicsAndHandToTheGriefersAndHatersOfPsionicsGoP lay4thEdition&page=13#625). (It was said psionic NPCs are much more dangerous than standard wizards/sorcerers, and their pre-combat buffs and ability to augment their powers were challenged)
Follow Up Post (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/products/paizo/psionicsAndHandToTheGriefersAndHatersOfPsionicsGoP lay4thEdition&page=13#636).
Comparison Sorcerer NPC (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/products/paizo/psionicsAndHandToTheGriefersAndHatersOfPsionicsGoP lay4thEdition&page=13#645).
Next Post (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/products/paizo/psionicsAndHandToTheGriefersAndHatersOfPsionicsGoP lay4thEdition&page=14#652).
About Pushing Action Economy + PP expenditure (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/products/paizo/psionicsAndHandToTheGriefersAndHatersOfPsionicsGoP lay4thEdition&page=14#658).
Follow Up Post (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/products/paizo/psionicsAndHandToTheGriefersAndHatersOfPsionicsGoP lay4thEdition&page=14#660).
Follow Up Post, Again (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/products/paizo/psionicsAndHandToTheGriefersAndHatersOfPsionicsGoP lay4thEdition&page=14#668).
Most Recent Post (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/products/paizo/psionicsAndHandToTheGriefersAndHatersOfPsionicsGoP lay4thEdition&page=14#675)


So I'd like to ask people here to let me know if you allow/play/use psionics in your games, or you DM's games, or for your characters, and if you think they're (un)balanced and why or why not. I'm looking for honest representation here, and I was thinking you all could help me research this more fully.

EDIT: I should have stated previously, but this inquiry mainly pertains to only the XPH/SRD materials freely available to everyone and under the OGL license. Thanks for detailing stuff like Erudites and other CompletePsionics material, since it's still very informative for other reasons. :smallsmile:

[jokey665]

I do not think they are overpowered, and I allow them when I DM. My second real 3.5 character was a Wizard1/Psion9/Cerebremancer10 with precocious apprentice for early wizard entry cheese, and my DM at the time allowed it with no problems, he doesn't think psionics are overpowered but my party members did for the most part. Psionics also happen to be pretty much my absolute favourite system out there, and I use it whenever I get the chance.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I allow psionics unconditionally in all of my games, and use psionicists frequently as NPCs. I've never had any balance problems with them, and given that I tend to run high-powered games with fairly rules-proficient players, I'm sure I'd have noticed by now if there were any issues.

[kamikasei]

Well, I play PbP pretty much exclusively and the closest thing I have to a proper "group" for that doesn't play D&D. However, I have played a psion and a psychic warrior, I take no steps to avoid games where psionics are allowed, and I would probably be put off by a recruitment post that said they were banned as OP (saying "I don't like the system/flavour or I'm unfamiliar" would put me off either less or not at all, since they go to taste rather than judgment).

So no, you're not the only person who's comfortable to play with psionics.

* Oh, I forgot to mention. I should caveat this with the fact that, since PnP games so often die young, I didn't actually get to play either of my psionic characters for very long. I wouldn't have anticipated any problems with them, though.

[Flickerdart]

Psionics are much more balanced than Arcane and Divine full casters. There's still a lot of cheese they can pull off, but they're not 1st tier. If you're banning Psionics for being too powerful, you might as well ban Wizards and Clerics.

[TheThan]

I typically don’t allow psionics mainly because I don’t like running multiple types of magic systems in my games. But I don’t think psionics is broken or unbalanced. I’ve read through the rules and I think that psionics is decidedly less broken and much fairer than the standard issue magic rules.

One of these days I’m going to have to give it a shot.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Psionics are much more balanced than Arcane and Divine full casters. There's still a lot of cheese they can pull off, but they're not 1st tier. If you're banning Psionics for being too powerful, you might as well ban Wizards and Clerics.

I agree with everything in this post.

Some Psionics characters are overpowered. So are Wizards, Druids, and pretty much all of tiers one and two. D&D is frankly far more enjoyable (at least imo) when all characters are Tier 3, or at least mildly optimized Tier 4.

Psionic Warrior is fine, and maybe Wilder as well. Erudites are stupid, everyone knows that. And psions need to be banned for the same reasons as all of Tier 1 and 2.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I think a lot of people either have bad memories from earlier editions of psionics, or don't understand the whole limit on power points spent equal to your manifester level. There's also a lot of people that don't like the flavor, but that's not set in stone.

Psionics is the next best casting system after Vancian. The flexibility it offers is great, and solves the problem certain high level casters have of too-few high level spell slots, and a whole bunch of mostly useless or unused 1st and 2nd level spells at the day. Psionics is about using your character to their full potential. Rarely is there 'wasted power.'

[Vizzerdrix]

My group allows Psionics, we just don't have anyone who wants to learn how to do it atm. I may bite the bullet one of these days and learn it so I can teach the group.

[Set]

Just like the Cleric, Druid and Wizard, there are a few specific combinations that could use re-examining (and some rules about how many pp you can shove into a power that could be bold-faced and stamped on people's foreheads, as reminders, it seems).

But the Psion certainly isn't overpowered, just because some guys on the CharOps forums have found ways to break the hell out of psychic reformation or whatever. Search aroung long enough on those forums, and you'll find abusive *Commoner* builds, but that doesn't mean that the entire game needs to be redesigned from the ground up.

As I said in the Paizo thread, a design goal of Pathfinder is to be (more or less) backwards-compatible with 3.5 / the SRD, so any Pathfinder relaunch of Psionics should be no more revolutionary than the Pathfinder versions of Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers and Wizards. Up HD to d6, rewrite a few specific powers, and give the Elocator, Telepath, etc. some specific 'free' powers similar to the new School or Bloodline powers for specialist Wizards and Sorcerers, and it's pretty much a done deal.

I'm not a huge fan of psionics (although I knee-jerk against people who claim that they don't fit the feel of a fantasy setting, considering how many magical spells (like clairvoyance and teleportation) are flat-out *stolen* from psychic / paranormal phenomena), but I strongly believe that the system should not be re-invented for a *small* chance of attracting people like me that aren't fans of the system. It should be brought over mostly the same, to work for those who already like the system as written.

In the previous thread, I likened redesigning psionics to appeal to people *who didn't like it anyway* (at the risk of alienating the only people who *did* want it) as being much like making dog food out of lettuce, a failure on many levels.

Being unconcerned about 'Tiers,' my favorite psionic class is the Soulknife, because I can play one without worrying about power points or learning the core of the psionics system. :)

[ken-do-nim]

I'm not actively running a 3.5 game at the moment but I am actively thinking about it :) I might actually run 3.0 instead. Anyhow, in either system I currently would ban psionics simply because it's a whole other set of rules I need to learn, plus none of the modules I plan to run include it (Rappan Athuk, Necropolis, Red Hand of Doom, Crypt of the Devil Lich).

From a fluff perspective, I have zero problem with the psion class. The psychic warrior on the other hand just seems like a powergamer's wet dream. You know the picture of the psychic warrior with the guy with the huge sword? Yuck. That whole half-giant I can use oversized weapons and charge and get my full attacks while making a vampiric attack and ... no thanks.

[Flickerdart]

The psychic warrior is one of the best-balanced classes in the game, amusingly enough.

[sofawall]

I'm not actively running a 3.5 game at the moment but I am actively thinking about it :) I might actually run 3.0 instead. Anyhow, in either system I currently would ban psionics simply because it's a whole other set of rules I need to learn, plus none of the modules I plan to run include it (Rappan Athuk, Necropolis, Red Hand of Doom, Crypt of the Devil Lich).

From a fluff perspective, I have zero problem with the psion class. The psychic warrior on the other hand just seems like a powergamer's wet dream. You know the picture of the psychic warrior with the guy with the huge sword? Yuck. That whole half-giant I can use oversized weapons and charge and get my full attacks while making a vampiric attack and ... no thanks.

Basing balance off of pictures, always the best way.

Anyway, if you run 3.0, do not use Psionics. 3.0 is what gave it its bad reputation.

[ken-do-nim]

Basing balance off of pictures, always the best way.


No I've actually seen a half-giant psychic warrior in play modelled after said picture doing exactly what I just mentioned. That said, I am unduly swayed by artwork, and I admit it. It's why I can't even touch 4E.



Anyway, if you run 3.0, do not use Psionics. 3.0 is what gave it its bad reputation.

Thanks for the tip, I do appreciate it as I am about to win a lot on eBay containing the 3.0 Psionics book.

[sofawall]

No I've actually seen a half-giant psychic warrior in play modelled after said picture doing exactly what I just mentioned. That said, I am unduly swayed by artwork, and I admit it. It's why I can't even touch 4E.



Thanks for the tip, I do appreciate it as I am about to win a lot on eBay containing the 3.0 Psionics book.

In 3.0, you can base your manifesting off of Con. That alone is reason to back away. Casters are already SAD enough. Making HP and spells off of the same stat is too much.

[Flickerdart]

Anyway, if you run 3.0, do not use Psionics. 3.0 is what gave it its bad reputation.
3.0 Psionics sucked major arse. 2E Psionics are the ones that were madly ridiculous and confusing.

Edit: Sofa, only one discipline was based on CON, the crummy blasty one. You needed to have all stats high in order to be useful, making them more MAD than any other class.

[Optimystik]

Psionics has two balancing factors that keep it far more in line than traditional casting:

1) The manifester cap to augmentation
2) Psionic feats and class features usually rely on having Psionic Focus.

These two factors do a wonderful job at keeping the system as a whole balanced. As odd as it sounds to say this, WotC did a brilliant job.

In addition, I have to say: I LOVE the flavor. I can't see why it's such an issue with other people. It offers so much meatier fare than the standard "eye of newt, pinch of guano, wiggle your fingers, jiggery-pokery!" casting system. A wizard tells the laws of physics what to do; a Psion merely thinks it.

Furthermore, all the psionic classes can work together much more effectively than their vancian equivalents. A wizard acts either on his own, or occasionally with other wizards through very limited measures. But a Psion can conduct a Metaconcert and include the Psychic Warrior, Lurk, Ardent and Soulknife he is adventuring with easily, or even just fuse with one of them. Everyone at the table in a psionic party can contribute to the whole.

The soulknife and splat classes need a lot of work, though. The Lurk is awful compared to a regular rogue as written, though Mind's Eye helped with that somewhat. The Divine Mind is awful compared to a paladin. Ardents are much weaker than clerics, but then that isn't such a bad thing. Soulknives are very poor out of the box, and Erudites are flat out broken. With those fixed, Psionics would easily be the best way to play 3.5 in my opinion.

[Arakune]

nevermind, I thought you were saying psionics where overpowered when it was the opposite :smallredface:



So showing arbitrary situations in a scenario set up by yourself proves something???? lol. (keeping in mind that my example didn´t have an scenarion, it was just the lone psion and only had one feat that almost every psion has. And that it can be done regardless of what´s going on)

So for an 11th lvl character to burn half it´s resources and get 5 powers out in a single turn is not novaing?? (2 rounds like that and gets sooo drowzy)

Quoting an 11 year old is a strong solid proof of something?? lol

This is how solid that argment is. ¨my 5 year old nephew thinks the idea of light behaving as a wave and a particle is preposterous¨ mmm I guess that proves something.

In the end psions have a better resource management (as admited by many pro psionics around here), and they have THE BEST action economy abilities in the core game (temporal acceleration available early, schism, dimmension door as a move, anticipatory strike, time regresion). So combining great resource management with multiple actions in any given round is going nova. And even at 20 lvl a psion will have more actions and better resource management than any sorcerer.

I don't trust anyone that uses "lol" during a serious discussion :smallmad:

[Tackyhillbillu]

I'd be curious to see a topic asking for comparisons of the Tome of Battle classes to Psionics, as both seem to get unwarranted amounts of flak.

[sofawall]

3.0 Psionics sucked major arse. 2E Psionics are the ones that were madly ridiculous and confusing.

Edit: Sofa, only one discipline was based on CON, the crummy blasty one. You needed to have all stats high in order to be useful, making them more MAD than any other class.

Blasting is fine.

Anyway, it seems Psionics has sucked since... ever. And only became good in 3.5.

[Ozymandias9]

No, 3.5 psionics is not unbalanced in comparison to the bulk of 3.5. The different casting system will provide some initial barrier to entry for a few groups, but it's fairly minor (and mostly the result of imagined difficulty).

Psionics do, however, optimize more naturally and perform better at lower optimization: if your casters think in terms of fireballs instead of save or die, then they will likely have higher output with psionics.


Anyway, if you run 3.0, do not use Psionics. 3.0 is what gave it its bad reputation.

This needs a caveat, especially since someone's about to get a hold of the book. 3.0 Psionics is balanced poorly with respect to the rest of 3.0 (and even more so 3.5), but it's well balanced internally.

Despite being presented as a system for integration in standard D&D, works better as a stand-alone D20 system. Additionally, it's well set up to function in that manner: the psion specialization provides a good simulacrum for class diversity and the psionic combat modes provide an interesting sub-engine for combat.

[Temet Nosce]

I think a lot of people either have bad memories from earlier editions of psionics


Psionics are much more balanced than Arcane and Divine full casters.

These two. Psionics are beautifully written and don't have nearly as many powers which I flat out won't use as core does. Psionics is my second favorite system in 3.5 after the ToB.

Also, in my experience there are two types of people who claim Psionics is overpowered in comparison with Vancian. The ones who had a bad experience in another edition (valid complaint there, and I try to point out the differences), and the ones who don't know anything about psionics in the first place.

[Aron Times]

To the OP:

You won't find intelligent discussion on the Paizo boards. The levelheaded posters are drowned out by the rabid fanboys.

[sciencepanda]

I have to say, not only do I allow my players to use psionics, but when they decide to be casters, I actively try to discourage them from playing traditional magic users.
The bias against them in certain groups has always left me rather puzzled.

[Optimystik]

Also, in my experience there are two types of people who claim Psionics is overpowered in comparison with Vancian. The ones who had a bad experience in another edition (valid complaint there, and I try to point out the differences), and the ones who don't know anything about psionics in the first place.

With all due respect to those people, they have no excuse for ignorance. The SRD is free and has been available for some time.

(I know you are not one of those people, I am just ranting in general :smallsmile:)


I'd be curious to see a topic asking for comparisons of the Tome of Battle classes to Psionics, as both seem to get unwarranted amounts of flak.

Or a versus thread. Psywar vs. Warblade! Ardent vs. Swordsage! Divine Mind vs. Crusader! Soulknife vs... um... never mind that one :smalltongue:


You won't find intelligent discussion on the Paizo boards. The levelheaded posters are drowned out by the rabid fanboys.

Rather like the WotC boards...

[Tehnar]

I do not allow psionics in my game and think they are overpowered. *


*explanation: I do not run my games with the principle of anything goes. In my games there are no metamagic reducers of any kind, some spells have been removed, others have been modified. This usually brings the casters closer to others in terms of power, and for me it has worked great.

[Arakune]

I do not allow psionics in my game and think they are overpowered. *


*explanation: I do not run my games with the principle of anything goes. In my games there are no metamagic reducers of any kind, some spells have been removed, others have been modified. This usually brings the casters closer to others in terms of power, and for me it has worked great.

Then it's not "psionics are overpowered", it's "psinonics without nerf against nerfed casters that are overpowered". Did you removed/modified powers? Worked around with the psionics classes powers/class features/feats like you did with casters?

That just seens like you don't want to do bookeping anymore, and it's fine in itself, but it doesn't really contribute to the discussion.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Damn you for tearing down my faith in humanity. You and the anti-psionics side.

@Tehnar: Pretty much what arakune said. You nerfed magic (justifiably). You didn't nerf psionics. Therefore, psionics is more powerful than magic. This has little to do with whether psionics in general is overpowered.

[AslanCross]

I allow 3.5 psionics in my games. Psions seem to be more difficult to tire out in terms of having power points per day, but I often find that wizards only need to drop a single spell to end an encounter. Psions need to keep firing off powers despite despite actually dealing more damage.

[jiriku]

I typically don’t allow psionics mainly because I don’t like running multiple types of magic systems in my games. But I don’t think psionics is broken or unbalanced. I’ve read through the rules and I think that psionics is decidedly less broken and much fairer than the standard issue magic rules.

One of these days I’m going to have to give it a shot.

Ditto here. Any complaints I have against psionics have to do with the complexity of needing to remain familiar with multiple magic systems, or the style (I don't get the crystal fetish, really). Mechanically, I find them to be better-balanced than wizards or druids, and I have used the odd psionic NPC when running psionic-themed monsters like illithids and githyanki. Even if a player were to bring something to the table that was abusive and broke the game, it's trivial to rebalance the campaign by using a two-letter word that starts with "N" and ends with "o".

[sofawall]

What I find strange is when people say Psions do so much more damage than wizards. They both do about 1d6/CL on their basic attack methods. but whereas a wizard can use a 5th level slot and do CLd6, even at level 20, the psion has to use 20 PP to do 20d6 at level 20, or effectively a level 9 spell. Even with cost reducers and overchannel, it's maybe 23d6 for 20PP. 3d6 extra for 4 spells levels?

What am I missing?

[sonofzeal]

What I find strange is when people say Psions do so much more damage than wizards. They both do about 1d6/CL on their basic attack methods. but whereas a wizard can use a 5th level slot and do CLd6, even at level 20, the psion has to use 20 PP to do 20d6 at level 20, or effectively a level 9 spell. Even with cost reducers and overchannel, it's maybe 23d6 for 20PP. 3d6 extra for 4 spells levels?

What am I missing?
Well, "Energy Missile" (discipline only) is rather better than almost any comparable Wizard blasty spell for quite a few levels. Extra damage, pick multiple targets, variable damage type. Pretty sweet. Kineticist Psions do make rather better blasters than Wizards, IMO. That said, there's plenty of other better things a Wizard can do rather than just blast.

[AslanCross]

They deal more damage initially--Energy Ball vs Fireball:

Energy Ball (4th level power): 7d6+7 if fire or cold.
Fireball (3rd level spell at CL 7th): 7d6.

However, a Psion needs to commit more of his daily resources to fire off an energy ball compared to a wizard. Furthermore, he needs to spend even more resources to increase the damage. The wizard doesn't even need to try---all his spells scale up with level.

[Optimystik]

Ditto here. Any complaints I have against psionics have to do with the complexity of needing to remain familiar with multiple magic systems, or the style (I don't get the crystal fetish, really).

I don't much understand this point either. The transparency rules are the default, not a variant. It's not "multiple magic systems"; it's one system with different lists.

For the style - well, if your table prefers casters that spout gibberish and fling poo then more power to them, I say. But it's no less weird than psionics.


Pretty sweet. Kineticist Psions do make rather better blasters than Wizards, IMO.

They really don't, ever. The augmentation is only part of the problem. Metamagic >>>>>> Metapsionics every single time, thanks to Psionic Focus.

[Gametime]

I don't much understand this point either. The transparency rules are the default, not a variant. It's not "multiple magic systems"; it's one system with different lists.

For the style - well, if your table prefers casters that spout gibberish and fling poo then more power to them, I say. But it's no less weird than psionics.

The flavor in the psionics books tends to be pretty...bizarre. I've got no problem with psionics, but I like to think of them as self-contained wizards. The faux-scientific power names just throw me off - why exactly does psionics have anything to do with science, again? It's like Wizards (the company, not the class) was trying to make psionics seem more different than it had to.

[aje8]

Psionics: Totally balanced.

Allowed unconditionally in my group.

It does blast better from what I understand.

But..... it's blasting. Who cares?

[Foryn Gilnith]

Wizards of the Coast just used more Greek word parts in the psionic power names than they did Latin word parts (whereas magic used more Latin). The effect of that may seem "scientific", but I'm not sure how intentional it was.

Crystal fetish - that was intentional. Damned new age sci-fi getting in my D&D.

[averagejoe]

Not only do I allow psionics, I encourage it. It's a beautifully written system, and mechanically one of the crowning achievements of DnD. The only reason I don't play psionics all the time is that they simply lack the support that everything else has.

[Optimystik]

The flavor in the psionics books tends to be pretty...bizarre. I've got no problem with psionics, but I like to think of them as self-contained wizards. The faux-scientific power names just throw me off - why exactly does psionics have anything to do with science, again? It's like Wizards (the company, not the class) was trying to make psionics seem more different than it had to.

Well, the idea is that faux-scientific ("psientific?") naming conventions make Psionics seem more modern.

If you don't like the crystals, refluff as necessary. Make them gems, or rune-inscribed tablets.

[Dacia Brabant]

Just wondering, is this in reference to Pathfinder's idea of Vancian Psionics?

I would rate Psionics slightly behind ToB (which is at the top, with Beguiler-type casting in 3rd place) in terms of balance and accessibility, as well as my own personal enjoyment of the system. Most of my favorite characters are psionic-based and I don't join games that don't allow the system.

For people who don't like the flavor, like anything else in the game it can always be reflavored with a little effort; for people who don't know it, it's free on the SRD and there's not that much to read anyway; and for people that think it's overpowered:

You Cannot Augment Powers Above Your Manifester Level.
You Have To Expend Psionic Focus When You Use A Metapsionic Feat.

Write these sentences 30 times on the blackboard.

[tyckspoon]

They really don't, ever. The augmentation is only part of the problem. Metamagic >>>>>> Metapsionics every single time, thanks to Psionic Focus.

The statement should accurately be that an unfocused Psion blasts better than an unfocused Wizard. Out of the box, Wizard blasting sucks. Psion blasting sucks less, especially if you compare the base lists- the Core Arcane spells have no practical equivalents to things like Energy Stun and Energy Push (especially if you keep the rapid DC scaling on Energy Stun) which allow you to do some effective field control while you blast. Plus they don't have to worry about energy types, and can either get a mini-Empower effect or a free boost to the DC of the powers on most of the blasts. That's kind of scary if your group is still convinced Fireball is a good attacking spell.

With a little more system awareness, however, you find out just what a Wizard can do with as little as effective use of Core metamagic feats and items. And that Wizard can blow the Psion away three times over with spell slots to spare.

[Samb]

I am a diehard psionics fan, but I do need to play devil's advocte here. While by RAW, psionics/XPH is very well balanced, with a bit of research and creativity psionics can be broken. On the flip side, I'm sure mages can do worse.


Psionic focus: this can be bypassed with the dominant ideal feature for ardents or even just psionic meditation and linked hustle.

PP pool refill: there are three of them:
1) wilde surge provides free PP, when combined with bestow power it results in net gain of PP
2) that incarnum feat combo that let's you spent essentia to treat a PP receptcle as fill
3) take up earth power and metapower linked power with synchronicty. If the linked power is bestow power then you gained 2 PP for the cost of 1 PP.
4) not a real method but 50 manifester arrows means 150 free powers of level 3 or under.
I don't know how mages can recharge spell slots, but I'm sure it's out there.

Access to all powers all the time (and not be an erudite): a permenant tattoo of psychic reformation will do just that, AND you can use in mid combat, unlike wizards who need to anticipate what spells to prepare beforehand.

Breaking Action economy, while I feel schism and temporal acceleration are the right level, ID have to say that linked power and synchronicity are not. Both can be obtained at level 1 and can result in abuses that results in psionics getting a bad rep. I personally don't think any wizard can pick a spell or feat that does this at level 1.

[industrious]

DMed two encounters, one with a psion, one with a swordsage, in a party of four. The psion knocked the wizard down to -1HP before snuffing it(they had a healing belt). The swordsage took out everybody except for the cleric. Psionics are balanced.

And I love Tomb of Battle; a big reason why the swordsage was so effective was that I was rolling ridiculously against my players. And I had better battlefield positioning.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I am a diehard psionics fan, but I do need to play devil's advocte here. While by RAW, psionics/XPH is very well balanced, with a bit of research and creativity psionics can be broken. On the flip side, I'm sure mages can do worse.
Muhuhahahahaha!!!

[Ashiel]

Just wondering, is this in reference to Pathfinder's idea of Vancian Psionics?

Well...it's pretty closely related. :smallfrown:

On a side note, I probably should have mentioned that I wasn't considering the CompPsi in the equation. Just the XPH/SRD material. I probably should have put that in my original post, which I will do now.

I want to thank everyone for the wonderful feedback. Everyone's kept everything very solid, constructive, and informative all the way around. It's very nice. After so much arguing over on the Paizo boards, it is wonderfully refreshing.

I look forward to hearing more. :smallsmile:

[Flickerdart]

I've actually considered running a game that bans Core. Psionics, ToB, ToM (with either a Truenamer homebrew fix or a pile of houseruling and letting them have custom items and that one organization boost that that one guy used), Incarnum and Fax's d20r.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Huh. I'd probably play that. Seems like the only things I play anymore are ToB, and recently Incarnum. (I really want to find a gestalt game where I can use my Swordsage//Totemist.)

[CockroachTeaParty]

I've actually considered running a game that bans Core. Psionics, ToB, ToM (with either a Truenamer homebrew fix or a pile of houseruling and letting them have custom items and that one organization boost that that one guy used), Incarnum and Fax's d20r.

Yeah, I've often thought much the same thing. Tragically, I like to run Eberron, and it's kind of hard to do Eberron without Vancian casting...

However, I'd imagine a ToM, ToB, Incarnum, Psionics game would be pretty interesting. You'd need to keep a few of the core classes, like rogue, for trap finding and skill monkery, but that's not a necessity.

Also, YMMV, but I'm not so sure the Truenamer needs as much of a fix as people think. I playtested one through the early stages of Red Hand of Doom, and the Truenamer did fine, contributing just as much as the other party members. But that's a discussion for another thread, at another time...

[peacenlove]

I've actually considered running a game that bans Core. Psionics, ToB, ToM (with either a Truenamer homebrew fix or a pile of houseruling and letting them have custom items and that one organization boost that that one guy used), Incarnum and Fax's d20r.

So i am not the only one who thinks the player's handbook is the worst WotC book :smallbiggrin: When my next campaign starts i will make clear to my players that the core classes and spells that have a duration of over 1 round are banned. I would use Fax's system (since i liked his paladin a lot) and i would recommend it however i need to print it first so i can read it at my leisure.
On topic a player of mine likes psions and ToB characters (mostly warblades) and played such characters for 3 years and i must say these systems won my heart since they both are effective but balanced. Unlike the cleric whose tactic is to buff for 4 rounds (letting the party die) and then dominated the encounter alone :smallfurious:

@CockroachParty Or you can insert classes from other books. For example Factotum (a rogue that is a Jack of all trades rather than Direct damage) does the job done and can cover all your needs should a main party member becomes disabled for a while.

[Tackyhillbillu]

So i am not the only one who thinks the player's handbook is the worst WotC book :smallbiggrin: When my next campaign starts i will make clear to my players that the core classes and spells that have a duration of over 1 round are banned. I would use Fax's system (since i liked his paladin a lot) and i would recommend it however i need to print it first so i can read it at my leisure.
On topic a player of mine likes psions and ToB characters (mostly warblades) and played such characters for 3 years and i must say these systems won my heart since they both are effective but balanced. Unlike the cleric whose tactic is to buff for 4 rounds (letting the party die) and then dominated the encounter alone :smallfurious:

Nightsticks + DMM + Persist = Cleric no longer letting people die (he just wins everything... period.)

[Leon]

3.5 Psionics is Balanced.

I like the system but do not use it in my current game as it doesn't fit.

The game that i play in atm also doesn't use it, the main DM likes the system as well but has chosen to limit the options to Arcane/Divine.
Which while being a shame is fair enough - his game his call

Another game that is currently on extended hold due to the DM being overseas for work set in Darksun is a great one with much Psionic usage.
That group has a Soulknife, Wilder, Psion, Water Cleric, Hunter Avenger Druid and a Ranger.

[peacenlove]

Nightsticks + DMM + Persist = Cleric no longer letting people die (he just wins everything... period.)

if you are talking bout my game Nightsticks are banned :smallamused: Also thankfully my players wouldn't dare to propose me strangetricks since i am the better optimizer (and i am the DM yay!)
Also apply Quicken Spell like ability (greater dispel magic) to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightwalker) and watch the cleric cry.

Also on topic, psionics seem to be loved by the D&D community, i have seen numerous additions and even interesting fixes for the soulknife.

@Cockroachparty below. Well from the phb i would allow: 2 levels of monk, the barbarian, the ranger, the bard maybe, 2 levels of fighter aaaaand ... well only that :smallbiggrin: Rogue is a good class but skill wise factotum and combat wise swordsage replace him.
Being the player of a mystic theurge and a nocturmancer i don't like dual progression classes, they (usually) are too weak and have too many dead levels for my taste giving only versatility in return.

[CockroachTeaParty]

@CockroachParty Or you can insert classes from other books. For example Factotum (a rogue that is a Jack of all trades rather than Direct damage) does the job done and can cover all your needs should a main party member becomes disabled for a while.

Oh, Factotum's great. There's lots of classes that are good, but if you wanted to try and actively avoid Vancian casting, well... I suppose Warlock and Dragonfire Adept are comparable to the above sources.

Really, I'd be happiest if the books were limited to say, XPH, ToM, ToB, Incarnum, and then include PHBII, Dragon Magic, and the Factotum. That would be a lot of fun.

Perhaps you could allow Vancian casting, with the caveat that you have to pursue one of the dual-progression PrCs, like Anima Mage, Jade Phoenix Mage, etc. Also, some of the core classes would still be useful for dips, like Fighter.

[Myrmex]

They really don't, ever. The augmentation is only part of the problem. Metamagic >>>>>> Metapsionics every single time, thanks to Psionic Focus.

And the plethora of metamagic reducers.
If you get rid of metamagic reducers, blasting is much closer between the two. Casters will still have an edge, thanks to getting 3rd level spell with CL d6s boosted up with a maximize, empower, twin, etc, but it's much closer.

Getting to choose when to blast for a lot and when not to can be really valuable. CharOp tends to overlook how powerful spontaneous casting can be.

[Reinboom]

I've been in a situation where I've had to outright ban a psionic character from a 3.5 game. However, it's not because of psionics by themselves but instead their race choice that did it.
The character was a Tibbet Psion. The problem, was that it was very very hard to justify more intelligent enemies in to attacking the random cat on the battlefield since Psionics doesn't give off much distinction on who is doing it. Even more so, was the issue that the campaign was mostly outdoors and 'woodsy'. So, it didn't take much for the cat to just find a bush or a tree.

Other than that, however, I rather enjoy the system. Actually, I enjoyed that character as well, it was adorable, but it was still a little much in the circumstances.

[ken-do-nim]

Really, I'd be happiest if the books were limited to say, XPH, ToM, ToB, Incarnum, and then include PHBII, Dragon Magic, and the Factotum. That would be a lot of fun.


Any divine magic in that bunch?

[rooster]

Psionics is so close to a cut-and-paste from the PHB that I really don't see the point.

It's easier for me to slap bard spell progression onto the fighter in exchange for 3/4 BA and 3 feats than it is for me to bring a new book and a new layer of mechanics to the table.

(For the last 7 years, my group's entire library of gaming books has consisted of 3 PHBs, an AD&D Monster manual and a copy of Oriental Advenures.)

Tome of Battle's the only alternate system that's both elegant and distinct enough for me to consider using. The only problem is that it completely contradicts our playing style.

[sonofzeal]

Psionics is so close to a cut-and-paste from the PHB that I really don't see the point.

It's easier for me to slap bard spell progression onto the fighter in exchange for 3/4 BA and 3 feats than it is for me to bring a new book and a new layer of mechanics to the table.

(For the last 7 years, my group's entire library of gaming books has consisted of 3 PHBs, an AD&D Monster manual and a copy of Oriental Advenures.)

Tome of Battle's the only alternate system that's both elegant and distinct enough for me to consider using. The only problem is that it completely contradicts our playing style.
Really? You think a 3/4 BAB Fighter with Bard spells is a good match for the PsiWar? I hesitate to ask this but... have you ever played one?

Okay, admittedly the flavour's pretty bland, but the crunch is distinct and memorable and quite effective at what it does.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Any divine magic in that bunch?

Why should there be? Would make for a more lethal campaign, sure, but I'm sure you could work up some psionic heal-like thing. Dragon Shaman has the "heal-to-half" aura anyway. Also, since religion doesn't have actual MAGIK power, the social landscape would be quite different.

[BobVosh]

For the longest time I was told psionics is overpowered. Since I was new I believed them. Then when asked I said the same thing.

Its that memory thing...where you forget the source but remember the fact. Which is ironic as I forgot the name and source, but remember most of the psyc work behind it. >.<

As for psions: As none of my players have an interest in looking, I too have little interest in looking. So I still haven't look at it. However I believe they aren't broken after most of the things people have posted about psions on here in the last year or so that I have lurked.

[Amphetryon]

Any divine magic in that bunch?

As Foryn said, there's no real need for it. Ardents, Dragon Shaman, Psi-Crystal (ab)users, Incarnates, and Crusaders can all be built to fill the band-aid role, if your party thinks they need it.

I try to actively encourage Psionics in my campaigns. Wilders and Psychic Warriors are two of my favorite classes overall, so there's no big shock there.

[Lycar]

In 3.0, you can base your manifesting off of Con. That alone is reason to back away. Casters are already SAD enough. Making HP and spells off of the same stat is too much.

Actually you can pick your manifesting stat by picking what kind of Psion you are in 3.0. For example, a Shaper keys off Int, a Telepath off Cha, en Egoist off Str and so on.


Edit: Sofa, only one discipline was based on CON, the crummy blasty one. You needed to have all stats high in order to be useful, making them more MAD than any other class.

That was the key: If you are a, say Telepath, you needed Cha to be high to get your bonus PPs and boost your Save DCs and all that. But if you wanted to access powers from other disciplines, you needed the linked attribute to be high enough for the level of the power you wanted.

So if someone has a 10 in Cha, it means he could never learn any telepathy powers whatsoever. And if you have your eyes set on that niftly little 3rd level Egoist power, you better get yourself a 13 Str.

For my 3.0 Psychic Warrior that meant he never increased his Str past 16. It was basically the choice between getting another +1 to to-hit and damage, or getting Dex up to 14 to access Dimension Door and boosting Int to 15 to get Ectoplasmic Armour.

I really, really liked that because you couldn't just buff a single stat ad nauseam like a Wizard or a Sorceror, or even a Fighter or Barbarian for that matter. You had to make carefull and tough choices and that appealed to me.

Some call that MAD, but I see it as Raw Power/Versatility: Pick one.

Besides, leaving some of your stats in the dust and just cutting yourself off from some of the 6 psionic disciplines was not entirely unlike a Wizard banning schools of magic to gain improved power within his specialization.

Psychic combat was a total mess though. Very interesting idea but bad execution. But that is the problem with a lot of nice and interesting stuff. It is usually much, MUCH more efficient to simply kill stuff instead of using Feats or special abilitites to weaken the opponent. Sad. :smallannoyed:

On the other hand, I also liked how, for example, the various Stat Buff spells didn't give a flat +4 to a stat but 1d4+1. Why? Because that meant that odd scores actually meant something. Half of the time, the guy that was arguably better by one stat point but did have the same modifier as the next guy would get more mileage out of the buff. That was nice.

And of course, since one usually only ever boosts one stat with one's level-ups, having the option to make do with a +5 item instead of a +6 to get the same stat and associated stat bonus as the next guy was also sweet. :smallbiggrin:

3.0 had a lot of issues, some of which were adressed in 3.5. But some things were made worse/dumbed down too much.

Psionics are fine in 3.5 though. The greatest unbalacing factors were some of the powers (i.e. spells !) and those got beaten into submission with the NERF bat. So it's all good now. :smallsmile:

Lycar

[Samb]

Muhuhahahahaha!!!

I don't get the joke.......
Evil laugh because wizards can change spells on the fly and recharge spell slots out of combat? I'm sure they can but I personally don't know how it's done. Please enlighten me.

[averagejoe]

On the other hand, I also liked how, for example, the various Stat Buff spells didn't give a flat +4 to a stat but 1d4+1. Why? Because that meant that odd scores actually meant something. Half of the time, the guy that was arguably better by one stat point but did have the same modifier as the next guy would get more mileage out of the buff. That was nice.

And of course, since one usually only ever boosts one stat with one's level-ups, having the option to make do with a +5 item instead of a +6 to get the same stat and associated stat bonus as the next guy was also sweet. :smallbiggrin:

One houserule I like using is that nonvariable even number buffs/debuffs give +1 above what's stated. (So bull's strength would give a +5 bonus and bestow curse would give a -5 penalty.) So, if you have an odd ability score, the bonus/penalty is +1/-1 what it would have been, but it still has the same effect on even ability scores. It doesn't have much effect on the game, but it's fun and the players always seem to like it.

[Green Bean]

I don't get the joke.......
Evil laugh because wizards can change spells on the fly and recharge spell slots out of combat? I'm sure they can but I personally don't know how it's done. Please enlighten me.

I think it's because "I'm sure mages can do worse" is like saying "I'm sure water can be wet".

[Flickerdart]

One houserule I like using is that nonvariable even number buffs/debuffs give +1 above what's stated. (So bull's strength would give a +5 bonus and bestow curse would give a -5 penalty.) So, if you have an odd ability score, the bonus/penalty is +1/-1 what it would have been, but it still has the same effect on even ability scores. It doesn't have much effect on the game, but it's fun and the players always seem to like it.
Uh, no it doesn't. -4 against 14 is 10, -5 against 14 is 9. The way you have it benefits odd ability scores in all cases, since +5 to 14 is still only 19, but +5 to 15 is a 20. You end up with a net +1 modifier gain in odd scores over even scores in all cases.

[averagejoe]

Uh, no it doesn't. -4 against 14 is 10, -5 against 14 is 9. The way you have it benefits odd ability scores in all cases, since +5 against 14 is still only 19, but +5 against 15 is a 20.

Yes, except the -4 would be a -3 because it's +1. When I said, "The same effect on even ability scores," I meant the same effect the -4 would have had.

Edit: I was referring to the effect of bestow curse giving a -6 penalty to one ability score. Against 16 bestow curse would turn it into an 8 (-1 penalty); turning it to -5 makes it 9 (-1 penalty.)

[ericgrau]

In a powergamed group matching many theoretical optimization threads (but not full on Pun Pun), the wizard can negate all his weaknesses and thus psions can't hold a candle to their raw spell power. But many groups do not work this way. Silence, grappling, readying actions to disrupt casting, simply attacking the fragile wizard first and dispelling are all classic responses that oldy-time players know to use the moment they see a caster. And oldy-time DMs do the same to the group. Not to mention a dozen more obscure options like control sound, nightmare and snatching away the spell component pouch. It is possible to counter a couple of these in core, but it consumes significant resources and it is impossible to counter them all at once. In these gaming groups wizards are strong, but aren't 1/10th the trouble they are in the hands of powergamers with a dozen books.

I'm getting to a question, not an answer, by the way. Psions have no somatic components to grapple, no verbal components to silence and no spell component pouch to nab. With a concentration check they can conceal their manifistation, to keep archers from disrupting it. Unlikely wizard counters to disroption, these are all virtually free if not automatic too. If you're not using psionics/magic transparency, dispel magic and anti-magic fields along with their psionic counterparts are suddenly half as effective since they can only affect half as many enemies now. So let's assume for a moment you're not in a powergaming group where you have a dozen books which the DM lets you freely use to counter all weaknesses without paying much. Crazy to say in internet boards alongside optimization threads, I know. But, assuming that, are psions on par with countered wizards or non-casters? IIRC DMs being unable to stop psions is a common complaint among some. So, rather than comparing psion powers to wizard spells, do psions have a power nerf to match the fact that they can manifest freely with little or no worry?

[Fhaolan]

I allow psionics, but none of my players bother. For some, it's the pscience (that *is* a good term for pseudo-science. I'm going to keep that, thanks. :) ) turning them off, and for others it's 'one more system to learn'.

So I've run NPCs with psionics against them, and it's worked well. I houserule that 'detect magic' can also detect whether the spell is divine or arcane in origin (I think that's a houserule, anyway. It might be in there somewhere and I missed it.), along with the 'school'. I have it showing psionic as one of the origins as well, but since none of the characters are familair with psionics they get a 'It's not divine or arcane, it's *something else* dum dum duuuum!'

The players have figured out what's going on, but they still don't care enough to use psionics themselves. They like the flavour of it being a lost form of magic from a previous age. It makes it more... well... magical for them.

Which sets a lot of people on edge when I say that. 'Psionics isn't more magical than magic!' they scream. 'Go away, ya bother me kid.' is my usual response.

[Gametime]

Well, the idea is that faux-scientific ("psientific?") naming conventions make Psionics seem more modern.

If you don't like the crystals, refluff as necessary. Make them gems, or rune-inscribed tablets.

Oh, absolutely, I get what they were going for; I just think it ended up feeling off-putting in the context of a fantasy universe. It's not like psionics NEEDS the "we're super different from magic!" flavor, but they kind of forced it in there.

My feelings about the weird fluff notwithstanding, psionics is a great system. I vastly prefer a system where casters can continue casting RELEVANT spells for most of the day, while at the same time being forced to expand more resources to cast those spells. The worst part about Vancian casting is that you'll barely ever touch your lowest level spells, after a certain point; they're just going to waste. The Psion doesn't have to worry about his power points falling at the wayside, and I think that's a much better system.

[Lycanthromancer]

All classes have high-end optimization, baseline optimization (the middle ground), and low-end optimization.

Some classes, such as rogues and ToB classes, have a high-end and a low-end that are very close to baseline.

Unless variants are added (or are optimized out the arse from dozens of books), fighters and monks are always close to low-end.

And some, like wizards, are fairly low on the low end and infinitely high on the high end (and can swing back and forth on that particular pendulum, literally every day, if the player has no idea about what's effective and changes his spell list randomly).

Druids are always close to their highest unless the player is inept beyond all reason.

The exception to this is the truenamer (which is very high end, only has one build possible, or it doesn't work at all).

Psions? They're built to be easily optimizable, even in the hands of a so-so player. Their high end and low end are a lot closer to their baseline, but their baseline is a little higher than some groups are used to.

When a psion player and a wizard player are both crap at optimization, the psion will undoubtedly come out ahead most of the time (and the wizard will seem extremely underpowered). When equally skilled at baseline optimization, a wizard far outclasses a psion. When they're both equally skilled at high-end optimization, the psion casts cloud mind and hopes everyone else fails their saves so he can cry like a baby without being noticed.

Much like Tome of Battle, one of the hallmarks of a well-designed class is that they're effective but not broken whether you're an excellent optimizer or a poor one. Just because the group plays poorly-designed classes and doesn't know how to play within the system doesn't mean psionics is to blame.

[Ashiel]

I'm getting to a question, not an answer, by the way. Psions have no somatic components to grapple, no verbal components to silence and no spell component pouch to nab. With a concentration check they can conceal their manifistation, to keep archers from disrupting it. Unlikely wizard counters, these are all virtually free if not automatic too. If you're not using psionics/magic transparency, dispel magic and anti-magic fields along with their psionic counterparts are suddenly half as effective since they can only affect half as many enemies now. So let's assume for a moment you're not in a powergaming group where not you have a dozen books which the DM lets you freely use to counter all weaknesses without paying much.

Well, I can answer most of those for you.

You can grapple psions just like spellcasters. This is true for all psionic powers, as while wizards have difficulty casting spells with somatic components during a grapple, any manifestation is subject to the grappling drawback. Also that while magic users can find ways around this (such as still spell, or finding odd spells that don't use certain components), psions will always be subject to these checks, so it helps to balance out.
Silencing a psion doesn't hinder them, because they don't chant or do anything like that. In the same respect it doesn't stop a multitude of other "magical" powers prevalent in the core system (including, but not limited to, spell-like abilities, most supernatural abilities, and so forth). Silence is a 2nd level bard and cleric spell, and as written is one of the most powerful spells in the game, which may or may not be a good thing. Either way, the Psion does get a 1-up in this case.
A Psion may choose to avoid flashy displays when they manifest their powers with a concentration check. However, this doesn't prevent actions to hinder them. They still provoke attacks of opportunity, and actions readied against them still occur (barring DM fiat). This would also suggest that while it may be possible to manifest stealthfully for a bit, a readied action to shoot the next non-ally person who casts/manifests will fish them out (maybe since you're looking for it, you notice it).
Magic/Psionic transparency is the rule by default. The XPH actually heavily cautions against the variant rules for "Psionics is Different" because it will break your game. It says so in the XPH that it will cause huge problems. Using this variant will cause as many problems as treating arcane and divine magic as different. This is in fact a Variant, and as such doesn't apply in the standard game (globes of invulnerability block psionics).


They do get to ignore silence and spell components, but doing otherwise wouldn't make any sense at all. Spell components (barring costly ones) are mostly for flavor anyway. A sorcerer with Eschew Materials ends up in about the same boat as the psion, barring silence.

On a side note, the XPH was either the first book I got outside of the PHB-MM-DMG combo or it was close to it. It was a very long time before I every got any of the complete books or other sourcebooks. I played in games and ran games with core + XPH exclusively for a long time. It works fine in practice. The only way you will have problems is if you, as a DM, like to constantly try to take your party's abilities away from them (forcing paladin falls, having regular adventures where casters are forced to loose their scrolls, spellbooks, components, holy symbols etc). If this is the case, the DM will feel psions are overpowered because there is no justifiable reason for them to steal their class features.

Hope this helped a little bit.

[ericgrau]

Eh, I see countering and going after the caster first as standard fare for smart baddies (when practical). Hit the low def. high off. target not vis versa. So... assuming cruel DMs are a load of fun to play under :smallbiggrin:, same question: do psions have a nerf to their powers to match the fact that they're harder to counter? Those of you who have only read this post of mine, please read my other post 5 posts back before responding.

[Foryn Gilnith]

They're not too much harder to counter. Like mages, they have to make Concentration checks in grapples. Like mages, they suffer AoOs. Like mages, the most efficient form of counterspell (direct damage spell -> obscene concentration check) affects them. These two points against them trigger for the same reason silenced and stilled spells provoke - the concentration required tips your enemies off.
Sure, they have no components; but if you're a mage and somebody managed to get in grapple reach you're already losing the battle.

Wait, what was I talking about? Time to actually answer the question. IMO psionics are weaker simply because magic is too strong. Any "harder to counter" boosts were a consequence simply of trying to make them different.

[DragoonWraith]

Low-level Psionic powers are somewhat better but more expensive (augmentation); high-level Psionic powers are often sort of nifty/flavorful but rarely useful and many Psions rely on augmented low-level powers most of the time. High level spells are much better than high level powers, I think.

Also, Psionic PrCs always lose at least one manifester level (with the exception of the poorly written Anarchic Initiate in the often poorly written Complete Psionics), and always one at 1st level (with the exception of Elocator, who loses one at 2nd and requires Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack to get into). That does a lot to keep Psions under control, as well.

[Lycanthromancer]

Eh, I see countering and going after the caster first as standard fare for smart baddies (when practical). Hit the low def. high off. target not vis versa. So... assuming cruel DMs are a load of fun to play under :smallbiggrin:, same question: do psions have a nerf to their powers to match the fact that they're harder to counter? Those of you who have only read this post of mine, please read my other post 5 posts back before responding.A DM should know their way around psionics, which makes it relatively easy compared to core casters, actually.

Psions have poor Fort saves, which leads to things like sleep poisons knocking them out handily, whether it be through Cha or Wis damage, or even drow sleep poison. Int damage to lower their ability to manifest (10 or below means no manifesting at all). Wizards and clerics can simply become immune to stat damage, or in the case of clerics or druids, just heal it up when they feel like it.

You can also keep them blindfolded and their ears plugged up with wax while tied up, which means targeting is extremely difficult, if not impossible. This works as well on core casters, except it's damned difficult to get that far, due to immunities and illusions and other abilities that make trying to take them down in the first place an incredibly daunting task (past level 4, anyway).

You can also tire them out through attrition; no pp = no manifesting = sitting duck psion. Then just prevent them from resting. After a handful of levels, core casters have much higher stamina than psionic characters, and are harder to do this to.

Their powers can't be counterspelled, but they're more easily disrupted (due to spells and their ability to completely bypass damage). As far as counterspelling? It's generally a waste of time (especially if the casters are breaking action economy, as they are wont to do).

Their toys are harder to take away from them, but easier to circumvent.

[rooster]

Really? You think a 3/4 BAB Fighter with Bard spells is a good match for the PsiWar? I hesitate to ask this but... have you ever played one?

When I wrote "Bard progression" I meant the rate of advancement, not the same spell list. I believe it's the same as the psychic warrior and lurk (with the exception of level 1).

Drawing from the melee spells in the cleric and wizard lists, the character would be nearly identical. Scribble down a couple natural weapon spells and no one would know the difference. It would take less than a minute.

Most powers are little more than "X spell, (but psionic!)" or "+# bonus to X."
If psionics did something new, I could see a reason to adopt it. But the system is basically a book-long reprint of the sorcerer casting mechanic. No need to clutter the game with more redundant systems.

[tyckspoon]

And yes, most psionic powers *are* nerfed compared to similar arcane spells- they're higher level (Psi Overland Flight is 6th, Arcane is 5th), require more PP spent to get the same effect because they don't scale for free (effectively the same as being higher level), and most of the best ones are on a restricted access list, requiring a feat or spending XP to get. The exceptions are usually the damage-dealing powers (although Concussion Blast is straight up worse than Magic Missile.)

[Zincorium]

When I wrote "Bard progression" I meant the rate of advancement, not the same spell list. I believe it's the same as the psychic warrior and lurk (with the exception of level 1).

Drawing from the melee spells in the cleric and wizard lists, the character would be nearly identical. Scribble down a couple natural weapon spells and no one would know the difference. It would take less than a minute.

Most powers are little more than "X spell, (but psionic!)" or "+# bonus to X."
If psionics did something new, I could see a reason to adopt it. But the system is basically a book-long reprint of the sorcerer casting mechanic. No need to clutter the game with more redundant systems.

That would actually suck very badly. Psychic warriors have the same BAB as clerics and druids, they are melee characters only, and you want to give them less spells than a druid or cleric? Can I have some of what you're smoking?

The key advantages that psychic warriors (and psionics in general) has is that they get to choose the proportion of their powers in terms of levels and utility. Big deal, actually.

1st level spells not cutting it anymore? Suck it up, there's nothing you can do with them. Wish you could increase the scope of a particular spell? Not happening. Powers can do that.

And seriously, re-read the list. So much freaking stuff that is NOT under the category of reprints or +X to something (what the bleep is wrong with the second category anyway?).

[ericgrau]

And yes, most psionic powers *are* nerfed compared to similar arcane spells- they're higher level (Psi Overland Flight is 6th, Arcane is 5th), require more PP spent to get the same effect because they don't scale for free (effectively the same as being higher level), and most of the best ones are on a restricted access list, requiring a feat or spending XP to get. The exceptions are usually the damage-dealing powers (although Concussion Blast is straight up worse than Magic Missile.)

Thanks. :smallbiggrin:

That's on par with forcing someone to take still and/or silent spell even when they don't want or need it, so it seems fair. And you also answered my unstated worry that since direct damage seems similar in power, other spells might be too.

[Starbuck_II]

When I wrote "Bard progression" I meant the rate of advancement, not the same spell list. I believe it's the same as the psychic warrior and lurk (with the exception of level 1).


It is how the Bard progression should have been. They should never have denied bards 1st level spells at 1st.

[Lycanthromancer]

Most powers are little more than "X spell, (but psionic!)" or "+# bonus to X."
If psionics did something new, I could see a reason to adopt it. But the system is basically a book-long reprint of the sorcerer casting mechanic. No need to clutter the game with more redundant systems.Well, psionic characters are an elegant alternative to spontaneously-casting sorcerers, which simply aren't built using a system that works well with spontaneity.

Really, spontaneous Vancian casting just doesn't work, as the system was built for prep-based casters that can swap out their spells daily.

Also, I'm not aware of any spells that were already out by the time the XPH came out that could duplicate the following effects:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/attraction.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/calltoMind.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/catfall.htm (Yes, I know about featherfall, but catfall has interesting uses when tripped.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dejaVu.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyRay.htm (Better for direct damage than most blasting spells, due to both energy swapping and extra damage. Makes dealing damage more powerful, and makes blasting viable without Metamagic abuse.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/myLight.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/synesthete.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bestowPower.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bodyEquilibrium.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/egoWhip.htm (Will save for half! Whee!)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/featLeech.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sustenance.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/swarmofCrystals.htm (Auto-damage!)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/ubiquitousVision.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/deathUrge.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/intellectFortress.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindwipe.htm (Only effect I know of that deals negative levels without negative energy.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/personalityParasite.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/adaptBody.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/catapsi.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/ectoplasmicShambler.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/leechField.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/coOptConcentration.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/retrieve.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/temporalAcceleration.htm (Dude. Level 6.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyConversion.htm (All-day blasting. Awesome.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/affinityField.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm (Extra move actions! Hoorah!)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm (Works on nonliving creatures, AND allows you to become an object. Very difficult to do otherwise.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRevivify.htm (Resurrection quick and easy, and came around well before its Vancian counterpart.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fission.htm (Clone yourself at full power!)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fusion.htm (No DBZ jokes, plz.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyMissile.htm (Makes blasting viable without Metamagic and jumping through hoops.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlBody.htm (Taking control of mind-affecting-immune foes is unusually difficult short of undead.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dimensionSwap.htm (This was around before benign transposition. Don't blame psionics for arcane having stalked it down an alley and stealing it.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralCaravan.htm (Planar travel by level 5? Makes those Planescape games a bit easier to pull off.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeRegression.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clairvoyantSense.htm (Considerably better than scrying.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/secondChance.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralConstruct.htm (Its flexibility is unmatched, even by summon monster spells, though far less broken.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/minorCreationPsionic.htm (Anything even close to level 1 that allows this?)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/quintessence.htm (!)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindlinkThieving.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/modifyMemoryPsionic.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/schism.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metaconcert.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/compression.htm (It's hard to find reduce person without the person. This works on everything.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm (Useful for giants, undead, constructs, and everything else that needs something other than the humanoid type...which is most of everything.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm (It actually scales; mage armor doesn't do that.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/prevenom.htm (Poison access at level 1? Nice.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicLionsCharge.htm (At the time, this was the only way to get the ability to pounce pre-epic, and it was found to be totally not overpowered.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/strengthofMyEnemy.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/immovability.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispellingBuffer.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/formofDoom.htm

At the time, you couldn't find anything that worked like those. Magic likes beating everyone else on the playground and taking their toys. You can't fault psionics for that.

Also, psionics was built around spontaneous casting; it's what the sorcerer and bard should've been all along. It's simple, it's elegant, it's fun! It's also far less bookkeeping, which I don't find fun at all; you might like having to rewrite half your character twice a session, but it just doesn't work for some people.

[Optimystik]

Why should there be?

Because some people actually like playing divine casters? Some concepts fit better with prayer and contemplation than flinging poo around, after all.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

No no no! The poo is not flung about, but rather subsumed in the sublime process of transforming gestures and materials into magical energies with which to immolate one's enemies!

[Foryn Gilnith]

I don't quite understand, especially the poo comment. The base classes allowed in that set:

Psion, Wilder, Psychic Warrior, Soulknife, Binder, Truenamer, Shadowcaster, Crusader, Warblade, Swordsage, Incarnate, Soulborn, Totemist, Duskblade, Beguiler, Dragon Shaman, Dragonfire Adept, Factotum, Knight.

If you wanted to play a cleric, you'd likely be similar to a RL cleric. Knowledge of religious beliefs, knowledge of associated rites (PHB2 religious feats, maybe), and basic apologetic skill. More ritual/conversion for an evangelist type, more prayer and contemplation for the monkish type. No supernatural pwnage. If you want some more solid religious powers, pretend your soulmelds/vestiges/maneuvers are from a god.

[Optimystik]

I don't quite understand, especially the poo comment.

That's what "guano" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm) means.


The base classes allowed in that set:

Psion, Wilder, Psychic Warrior, Soulknife, Binder, Truenamer, Shadowcaster, Crusader, Warblade, Swordsage, Incarnate, Soulborn, Totemist, Duskblade, Beguiler, Dragon Shaman, Dragonfire Adept, Factotum, Knight.

If you wanted to play a cleric, you'd likely be similar to a RL cleric. Knowledge of religious beliefs, knowledge of associated rites (PHB2 religious feats, maybe), and basic apologetic skill. More ritual/conversion for an evangelist type, more prayer and contemplation for the monkish type. No supernatural pwnage. If you want some more solid religious powers, pretend your soulmelds/vestiges/maneuvers are from a god.

And just what is wrong with "supernatural pwnage?" Incarnum has a divine flavor, but is very weak in the spellslinging department. It's great for making physical fighters with some oomph, but a cleric already has that and then some. Binders have a bit more, but the flavor is more of a struggle for dominance than any kind of supplication.

If even Ardent and Divine Mind were added to that list it would be better, but the list as-is is highly lacking in the divine department.

[Foryn Gilnith]

That's what "guano" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm) means.
And exactly one of those classes can cast it, and in all likeliness won't.


And just what is wrong with "supernatural pwnage?"
Nothing, but it's not necessary to make a contemplative, prayerful character. It wouldn't be much hassle to add the Ardent, in fact. I'm just saying that the absence of a dedicated "divine" class is hardly crippling.

[Optimystik]

And exactly one of those classes can cast it, and in all likeliness won't.

I was comparing arcane magic and its quizzical dependence on arbitrary material components to the relative cleanliness of psionics and divine magic.

"Won't cast fireball in all likelihood?" The Charop board won't, but fireball is a staple of arcane magic and you know it.


Nothing, but it's not necessary to make a contemplative, prayerful character. It wouldn't be much hassle to add the Ardent, in fact. I'm just saying that the absence of a dedicated "divine" class is hardly crippling.

Neither is its presence, which is what ken-do was getting at.

[Foryn Gilnith]

"Won't cast fireball in all likelihood?" The Charop board won't, but fireball is a staple of arcane magic and you know it.
Fireball is a staple for a wizard/sorcerer, yes. For a factotum or a rogue? :|


Neither is its presence, which is what ken-do was getting at.

This makes me have the feeling that we're arguing about nothing.

[DragoonWraith]

"Divine" psionics should not be, in my opinion. I do find adding the Ardent or Divine Mind to be crippling.

Add the Completes, and you get Favored Soul. That should do, I think. If you want a Paladin-y character, the Crusader, Incarnate, or Soulborn seems rather perfect.

[Optimystik]

Fireball is a staple for a wizard/sorcerer, yes. For a factotum or a rogue? :|

I wasn't aware factotums and rogues were arcanists. Unless you count UMD, in which case why have innate magic at all? Just give everyone UMD.


This makes me have the feeling that we're arguing about nothing.

I'm arguing that there's no reason to remove divine magic from the game. To put it bluntly, doing away with divine magic entirely is one of the dumbest ways to improve D&D that I've ever heard.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I wasn't aware factotums and rogues were arcanists.
Factotum is the only class on the list capable of casting Fireball, which is why I was confused by your mention of it in the context of the no-core game.


To put it bluntly, doing away with divine magic entirely is one of the dumbest ways to improve D&D that I've ever heard.
Could you elaborate on this? All you lose mechanically is healing, which can be had through arcane or alternate methods; and from a fluff perspective I would be interested in a magical setting where religions had no supernatural power.

[rooster]

1st level spells not cutting it anymore? Suck it up, there's nothing you can do with them. Wish you could increase the scope of a particular spell? Not happening. Powers can do that.
Blow one feat on Quicken and you have the same versatility with your spells as the PW has with most powers. Most spells scale in the same way powers augment. Animal Affinity and Expansion are the only exceptions I can think of. The rest can easily be emulated by core casting rules.

[QUOTE=Lycanthromancer;7320680At the time, you couldn't find anything that worked like those. Magic likes beating everyone else on the playground and taking their toys. You can't fault psionics for that.[/QUOTE]
Very few of those take advantage of Psionics rules. If a player wants abilities like those, it's trivial to turn them into spells. In most cases augmentation - the distinguishing aspect of Psionics - can be replicated with Heighten and/or Quicken metamagics.

Compression, Expansion and Psionic Dominate are the best examples I can find in a quick skim of the psionics rules of how I think a power should work. They present distinct modifications via augmentation with more consequence than +DC, +# or +d6 (benefits casters typically have by default or by a 1-feat investment). My problem with psionics is that making use of it is hard: powers like these, which have 3-4 varying abilities, should be balanced against each other and should be balanced against equivalent-level powers at the same time.

Using Psionics in this way - playing to its strengths rather than using it as a clone of the core magic system - is much more demanding than using the core magic system. To write a new spell, you need to think of one effect and a way for it to scale. To write a power, you need to think of one effect and 3-4 alternative ways for this one effect to scale with level. Otherwise, you're just using sorcerer casting under a different name.

[Optimystik]

Factotum is the only class on the list capable of casting Fireball, which is why I was confused by your mention of it in the context of the no-core game.

The "poo" was a hyperbolic example of squicky material components, which Beguilers and Duskblades still rely on (Beguilers may not specifically fling poo, but they do walk around with bags of animal tongues, for instance.) And don't get me started on the squick inherent in Binders, or the ridiculousness of Truename magic fluff. (I know how to pronounce something perfectly, but the universe makes my tongue fumble over it if I say it enough times? Or someone's true name never changes, but somehow everyone else gets worse at saying it as they gain levels? Right.)

I already pointed out that psionics and incarnum were cleaner in that respect than arcane magic, but they are very limited in what they can do compared to divine magic.


Could you elaborate on this? All you lose mechanically is healing, which can be had through arcane or alternate methods; and from a fluff perspective I would be interested in a magical setting where religions had no supernatural power.

Well, I was purely discussing fluff and not mechanics, but since you ask; where's the turning? Where's the flamestrike? Where's the weather control? Where's the wildshape? Who makes the artifacts if the deities don't? Who communes with them to get the party back on track? I'm not familiar enough with the factotum to know how much of those things he can ape, but even if he can do all of it he's still no cleric or druid, at least not to me.

As for the fluff - religion conferring magic - you can dislike it all you want, and that's fine. But those of us who do like it are going to be up in arms if it's abolished.

[Anonymouswizard]

Although I have never used psionics before, I'd like to give it a go some day. From the 3.0 psionics system there was one thing I did not like: MAD manifesting. If I every run a 3.0 psionics game I would houserule against it. I would like to take part in a game that substituted psionics for magic, so if anyone could point me to somewhere where I can find this setting thank you very much.

All in all we will have those who think psionics is overpowered, and others who do not like 3.0 psionics. All in all I think we have to disagree to agree on this one (yes, that way round), as no one is going to back down here. But I can see meaningful discussion on how psionics is not overpowered, and I am going to implement it in all of my games (conversely, my players do not believe in the fighter<wizard point, they say all that matters is that they are balanced at the mid levels (can you say level5? that's mid isn't it).

I would very much like to see a psionic combat 3.5 version, although the penalties would have to be larger or the PP costs smaller.

[Lycanthromancer]

Although I have never used psionics before, I'd like to give it a go some day. From the 3.0 psionics system there was one thing I did not like: MAD manifesting. If I every run a 3.0 psionics game I would houserule against it. I would like to take part in a game that substituted psionics for magic, so if anyone could point me to somewhere where I can find this setting thank you very much.

All in all we will have those who think psionics is overpowered, and others who do not like 3.0 psionics. All in all I think we have to disagree to agree on this one (yes, that way round), as no one is going to back down here. But I can see meaningful discussion on how psionics is not overpowered, and I am going to implement it in all of my games (conversely, my players do not believe in the fighter<wizard point, they say all that matters is that they are balanced at the mid levels (can you say level5? that's mid isn't it).

I would very much like to see a psionic combat 3.5 version, although the penalties would have to be larger or the PP costs smaller.Dark Sun (www.athas.org) is a setting that has arcane magic all but gone, and uses lots of psionics.

Whether you're playing a 3.0 or a 3.5 game, use the Expanded Psionics Handbook. It's more compatible with 3.0 games than the 3.0 Psionics Handbook was.

Also, for those of you who want to use psionics nigh exclusively, feel free to use my psionic powers revision (http://www.sendspace.com/file/9wfeyv). It gives a huge jump in versatility to manifesters, allowing them to cover more roles. It also tries to smooth out the gaps between different types of manifesters, paves over a lot of the previously available abuses, and improves scaling of some powers by rolling similar powers into a single overarching power (like greater/fabricate, for instance). I could use the playtesters.

[DragoonWraith]

Blow one feat on Quicken and you have the same versatility with your spells as the PW has with most powers. Most spells scale in the same way powers augment. [...] In most cases augmentation - the distinguishing aspect of Psionics - can be replicated with Heighten and/or Quicken metamagics.
This is very inaccurate. Have you ever played with Psionics?

[jokey665]

Also, for those of you who want to use psionics nigh exclusively, feel free to use my psionic powers revision (http://www.sendspace.com/file/9wfeyv). It gives a huge jump in versatility to manifesters, allowing them to cover more roles. It also tries to smooth out the gaps between different types of manifesters, paves over a lot of the previously available abuses, and improves scaling of some powers by rolling similar powers into a single overarching power (like greater/fabricate, for instance). I could use the playtesters.

I've started reading this and loved what I've seen so far. Next time one of my players wants to play a psionic character I'll show it to them, and I'll use it myself if I'm making any psionic NPCs.

[Dimers]

98 posts is a bit much for me to read tonight, so I'll just post my response to the original poster ... No, psi isn't overpowered; you have to pay for everything you get, whether with power points for augmentation, loss of focus (and therefore loss of special abilities), threat of wild surge, lack of spell choices, or lack of unique spells per day. The psion and wilder effectively have the fewest spells-per-day of any primary caster, AND they have fewer spells known (though those few are often more flexible) than the sorcerer. Soulknife is underpowered, even without considering that a single pp-draining attack robs them off all their class abilities. Psychic warrior has a lot going for it, but again, it's limited by pp, focus, and powers known.

I'm not interested in overpowered games, and that's exactly why I like to play psionic characters.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I'm not interested in overpowered games, and that's exactly why I like to play psionic characters.

"Overpowered games" is a bizarre phrase. Overpowered means having a power level significantly (and presumably disruptively) above the norm. In a game, a batman wizard may be overpowered by outshining the others. In a system, polymorph may be overpowered by pushing out all the other competing options. In what context can an entire game be overpowered?

[CockroachTeaParty]

Well, I was purely discussing fluff and not mechanics, but since you ask; where's the turning? Where's the flamestrike? Where's the weather control? Where's the wildshape? Who makes the artifacts if the deities don't? Who communes with them to get the party back on track? I'm not familiar enough with the factotum to know how much of those things he can ape, but even if he can do all of it he's still no cleric or druid, at least not to me.

As for the fluff - religion conferring magic - you can dislike it all you want, and that's fine. But those of us who do like it are going to be up in arms if it's abolished.

Nobody was claiming that such a restriction to the available classes would 'improve' playing D&D. I just thought it would be a fun variant. I'd have trouble actually justifying the exclusion of arcane and divine magic on many different levels (such as where magic items come from).

However, I think that even without divine magic, turning, wildshape, etc., a party of adventurers using the above classes could still get by. A factotum can do some healing and turning of undead, for instance, and even without turning, one can always, you know, destroy the undead.

I'd probably toss in the ardent to the mix. They're not nearly as good at healing, but combined with say a Dragon Shaman, Factotum, and perhaps a Binder bound to Buer, you could keep the party fit as a fiddle with ease.

Still, if you mainly balk at the exclusion of divine magic because you personally enjoy playing them, well, I suppose you just wouldn't get invited to play in such a game. :smallfrown:

[Dimers]

"Overpowered games" is a bizarre phrase. Overpowered means having a power level significantly (and presumably disruptively) above the norm. In a game, a batman wizard may be overpowered by outshining the others. In a system, polymorph may be overpowered by pushing out all the other competing options. In what context can an entire game be overpowered?

That's a good linguistic point. I meant a game full of absolutes. Y'know, where's no chance for the diplomancer to fail to convert an archenemy into a BFF ... where whoever gets the highest initiative wins the battle ... where a single spell can negate anything in the mortal realm and quite a bit that's beyond it. If any playable characters in a game have that sort of capacity, I call the game "overpowered". So I guess it's "over the level of power where I have any fun"; kinda a circular definition, but I'm no juggernaut of logic.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I think "broken" would be a fitting term. The system starts to break down, mechanics diverge wildly from their intent, the game becomes warped beyond the comprehension of the normal player, quantum effects are visible on a macroscopic level...

[infinitypanda]

I think "broken" would be a fitting term. The system starts to break down, mechanics diverge wildly from their intent, the game becomes warped beyond the comprehension of the normal player, quantum effects are visible on a macroscopic level...

What you have done there is visible to me.

[Glimbur]

Nobody was claiming that such a restriction to the available classes would 'improve' playing D&D. I just thought it would be a fun variant. I'd have trouble actually justifying the exclusion of arcane and divine magic on many different levels (such as where magic items come from).

Magic Arms and Armor can come from an Ironsoul Forgemaster, a Dorf only PrC from Magic of Incarnum.

[Draz74]

"Divine" psionics should not be, in my opinion. I do find adding the Ardent or Divine Mind to be crippling.

In a campaign where Psionics is not the "main" kind of magic, and has a flavor of its own (e.g. crystal fetish), I can understand this complaint.

But in a campaign where "Psionics" is merely the main mechanical system for magic, and there is no Divine (Vancian) magic, I fail to understand how fluffing the Ardent as a divine spellcaster could be a problem.

[Draz74]

Also, for those of you who want to use psionics nigh exclusively, feel free to use my psionic powers revision (http://www.sendspace.com/file/9wfeyv). It gives a huge jump in versatility to manifesters, allowing them to cover more roles. It also tries to smooth out the gaps between different types of manifesters, paves over a lot of the previously available abuses, and improves scaling of some powers by rolling similar powers into a single overarching power (like greater/fabricate, for instance). I could use the playtesters.

I glanced through this. Impressive! I will draw from this if any of my players choose a psionic character next time I DM.

[Optimystik]

"Divine" psionics should not be, in my opinion. I do find adding the Ardent or Divine Mind to be crippling.

Please elaborate. What do you find wrong with those classes? Is their inclusion "crippling" flavor-wise, or crunch-wise?

[Lycanthromancer]

Please elaborate. What do you find wrong with those classes? Is their inclusion "crippling" flavor-wise, or crunch-wise?I think it's flavor-wise, since psionics are 100% self-contained within the manifester, and that relegating that power to the gods completely negates the idea of psionics in the first place.

However, if you ignore the fact that it IS psionics, and just reflavor the classes, there's not much wrong with ardents or divine minds (other than A.) they're from Complete Crap, and B.) the second one is the friggin' divine mind).

[DragoonWraith]

Amazing how every iteration on the holy knight class (Paladin, Divine Mind, Soulborn) gets shafted... except the Crusader. Go Tome of Battle!

Anyway, yeah, what Lycanthromancer said. I was just hating on CPsi for introducing "divine" psionics, which is just a horrible bastardization of the system.

[Lycanthromancer]

Amazing how every iteration on the holy knight class (Paladin, Divine Mind, Soulborn) gets shafted... except the Crusader. Go Tome of Battle!

Anyway, yeah, what Lycanthromancer said. I was just hating on CPsi for introducing "divine" psionics, which is just a horrible bastardization of the system.Still not as bad as the storm disciple.

I mean, what the hell?

[Optimystik]

I think it's flavor-wise, since psionics are 100% self-contained within the manifester, and that relegating that power to the gods completely negates the idea of psionics in the first place.

However, if you ignore the fact that it IS psionics, and just reflavor the class, there's not much wrong with ardents or divine minds (other than A.) they're from Complete Crap, and B.) the second one is the friggin' divine mind).

As far as Divine Minds are concerned, I'll agree with you, but then they were trying to make a "psionic paladin" there anyway, so they had to shoehorn some way for them to Fall in there.

However, you're utterly wrong in applying that explanation to Ardents. 99% of them are atheists.

"Ardents, as a rule, avoid religion. Most see deities as embodiments of the universal truths they pursue. As ardents seek to understand those truths, they might come to think of deities that share their interest as powerful kindred spirits, but not necessarily as superior beings."

The big difference between Ardents and Clerics - Ardents cannot fall, no matter what they do. They can also combine diametrically opposing domainsmantles, like Good and Evil.

[Lycanthromancer]

As far as Divine Minds are concerned, I'll agree with you, but then they were trying to make a "psionic paladin" there anyway, so they had to shoehorn some way for them to Fall in there.

However, you're utterly wrong in applying that explanation to Ardents. 99% of them are atheists.

"Ardents, as a rule, avoid religion. Most see deities as embodiments of the universal truths they pursue. As ardents seek to understand those truths, they might come to think of deities that share their interest as powerful kindred spirits, but not necessarily as superior beings."

The big difference between Ardents and Clerics - Ardents cannot fall, no matter what they do. They can also combine diametrically opposing domainsmantles, like Good and Evil.Well, atheist is rather the wrong term. I'm sure most of them would prefer to be referred to as "nondenominational".

What I was talking about is reflavoring ardents to be cleric-like fonts of religion. What they were before then is rather immaterial, yes?

[dsmiles]

@OP:
It all depends on whether you are using the "psionics are the same" or the "psionics are different" rule. If you are using the "psionics are the same" rule, no they are not overpowered. FR Campaign Setting uses the "psionics are the same" rule.
If you are using the "psionics are different" rule, you need to include lots of creatures with power resistance, because in an otherwise normal campaign, psionics will blow away all of those creatures with spell resistance (which, by the "psionics are different" rule, are assumed to have power resistance equal to 1/2 their spell resistance).

[Yuki Akuma]

Only when compared with characters with no special abilities, and yes.

[kamikasei]

FR Campaign Setting uses the "psionics are the same" rule.

As does Eberron, and as the book itself tells you is the assumed default, complete with warnings that doing otherwise will require you to be careful about balancing encounters.

[Arakune]

FR Campaign Setting uses the "psionics are the same" rule.

Well, kind of. Their powers can't be taken from the current god of magic, so it's a plus :smallbiggrin:

[Optimystik]

What I was talking about is reflavoring ardents to be cleric-like fonts of religion. What they were before then is rather immaterial, yes?

It's not immaterial at all. DragoonWraith's problem with Ardents and Divine Minds was that divine magic (power from an external being) and psionics (power from within) shouldn't mix. I was pointing out that those classes merely got the mindset of religion, not the power that came with it.

They executed this poorly with the Divine Mind - any class that can "fall" is a divine caster in my mind, no matter how much they play up the psionic fluff - but the Ardent was a brilliant example of a "psionic cleric." Free to explore his 'faith' and self-actualize through psionics, free to draw power from concept combinations that no sane cleric would every try, like Creation and Destruction, Law and Chaos etc.

Thus, I don't see Ardents in need of any reflavoring at all. They are fine as-is.

[Myou]

I ban all psionics. The fluff is horrible and the whole system is just arcane magic repackaged.

But the balance is just fine in any game where you allow casters.

[Anonymouswizard]

Dark Sun (www.athas.org) is a setting that has arcane magic all but gone, and uses lots of psionics.

Whether you're playing a 3.0 or a 3.5 game, use the Expanded Psionics Handbook. It's more compatible with 3.0 games than the 3.0 Psionics Handbook was.

Thanks for the link. I will see if I can get the setting, an if not I'll make a psionics only setting of my own. I will then run campaigns in one of two settings: a traditional fantasy setting or a psionics heavy setting. Mind flayers will feature heavily.

[Kaiyanwang]

I like psionics. they are more rare in my setting, but are cool as NPC, to point out cultural differencies among races (in the same way, say, some races have Favoured Soul and others Cleric).

I like the way psionic powers are similar but different from spells (PP, augmentation, focus). I made magic and psionic not completely same. This could lead to some imbalance (in dispel, not in SR=PR and the like) but minor and it makes the gameworld more interesting IMHO.

I like the skill section of psionics too. (Autohypnosis and so on).

My players love Psionics too. In the two last campaing, they've been a Kalashtar telepath in the former, and a human Rogue // Psywarrior /Avevenger (AOOs and Kusarigama) and both were great PCs.

The crystal fluff - only few races have it, and is linked with the Earth and Psionic Nodes. For others, I follow Mahasarpa, an OAdv WE from wotc.

There, psionics are fluffed like Psion---> Yogi and the like. Very good. BTW, is a great WE overall, it contains Wind Dukes of Aaqa too!

[Otodetu]

Only issue i have seen with psi powers is the whole manifesting without somatic or verbal components, so very easy to use stealty, and possible to use while bound and gagged or when grappled.

I see no issue with psi characters as long as they cast as arcane casters.

[Kaiyanwang]

Only issue i have seen with psi powers is the whole manifesting without somatic or verbal components, so very easy to use stealty, and possible to use while bound and gagged or when grappled.

I see no issue with psi characters as long as they cast as arcane casters.

They have anyway "collateral effects" (display (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#display)) linked to manifestation that could make you caught. And powers are subjected to concentration rules anyway..

[Optimystik]

Only issue i have seen with psi powers is the whole manifesting without somatic or verbal components, so very easy to use stealty, and possible to use while bound and gagged or when grappled.

Displays make using powers stealthily very difficult. Hard to hide that you just tried to charm the king when everybody in the throneroom hears a mental bell ringing and knows it came from you, or that you're the one lifting the guard's key from his belt when your eyes are glowing silver. Under the transparency rules, the displays allow spellcraft checks to work for psionics too.

Compare suppression to casting still or silent with metamagic - the latter doesn't even require a concentration check.

[Otodetu]

Displays make using powers stealthily very difficult. Hard to hide that you just tried to charm the king when everybody in the throneroom hears a mental bell ringing and knows it came from you, or that you're the one lifting the guard's key from his belt when your eyes are glowing silver. Under the transparency rules, the displays allow spellcraft checks to work for psionics too.

Compare suppression to casting still or silent with metamagic - the latter doesn't even require a concentration check.


Dispense with Displays
Despite the fact that almost every power has a display, a psionic character can always choose to manifest the power without the flashy accompaniment. To manifest a power without any display (no matter how many displays it might have), a manifester must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the level of the power). This check is part of the action of manifesting the power. If the check is unsuccessful, the power manifests normally with its display.


Any caster worth his salt can perform a stealty manifestation, he just needs the ranks he will have anyways.

Still and silent are two feats, and they increase the effective spell-level.

[Optimystik]

Otodetu: I specifically mentioned display suppression in my post. No need to quote rules at me.

Psionics are a little easier to hide; so what? They're still weaker than spells.

[sofawall]

I ban all psionics. The fluff is horrible and the whole system is just arcane magic repackaged.

But the balance is just fine in any game where you allow casters.

PP beats Vancian any day.

[DragoonWraith]

Besides, magic is often harder to hide than it should be.

Conceal Spellcasting can be gotten for 2 skill points. It's 1/encounter, but that's something you mostly use outside encounters anyway...

[ErrantX]

I ban all psionics. The fluff is horrible and the whole system is just arcane magic repackaged.

But the balance is just fine in any game where you allow casters.

Umm... what fluff? The XPH has next to nothing but rules and precious little else. Every page is packed with good stuff, but like, no fluff. What fluff are you speaking of?

-X

[lsfreak]

Umm... what fluff? The XPH has next to nothing but rules and precious little else. Every page is packed with good stuff, but like, no fluff. What fluff are you speaking of?

-X

There is actually a fair amount of fluff in the form of spell descriptions. Mainly 'ectoplasm' and 'crystals.' Really, just drop the ectoplasm and change 'crystals' to 'gems' and it suddenly fits in perfectly. People have certain connotations associated with crystals (new age, lightsabers, and Protoss) than gems (rare and carefully cut precious stones that can be used in magic)

[NEO|Phyte]

I'm rather fond of 4e's spin on psionics' fluff, where it's reality's autoimmune reaction to the Far Realm.

[jokey665]

Protoss

I've actually somewhat incorporated Protoss (and various other 'non-standard' fantasy races) into my current campaign setting.

[Drascin]

"Divine" psionics should not be, in my opinion. I do find adding the Ardent or Divine Mind to be crippling.

Add the Completes, and you get Favored Soul. That should do, I think. If you want a Paladin-y character, the Crusader, Incarnate, or Soulborn seems rather perfect.

I have always played the Ardent as not really divine. They're just people with psionic talent who instead of going about it open-mindedly like psions, or playing it by ear like wilders, simply have what I think is called in English a one-track mind. Fanatics (it IS called "Ardent"), to put it simply. So all their powers are manifestations of those few ideas, because it's an overpowering belief of theirs - and psionics are based on what the character thinks, after all.

But of course, that's just my own take on it. Everyone plays as they prefer.

[DragoonWraith]

Ardent was being presented as 'divine' so I reacted to that. I just reread the class description, and you're right, it's pretty good, actually.

The Divine Mind is still terrible.

[Drascin]

The Divine Mind is still terrible.

No objections to that, your Honor :smallbiggrin:.

[Optimystik]

The Divine Mind is still terrible.

I agree. How would we fix it? Making a Psionic Paladin, but without the whole reliance on deities bit. And while we're at it, bumping its power to something reasonable. I love the auras but they are all the class has going for it, really.

The first step, I think, is changing its name, which itself betrays a reliance on divinity as a crutch instead of self-actualization (the core of all psionics.)

[sonofzeal]

No objections to that, your Honor :smallbiggrin:.
It makes an excellent complement to some Barshal (bard/marshal) builds.

[Nero24200]

Only issue i have seen with psi powers is the whole manifesting without somatic or verbal components, so very easy to use stealty, and possible to use while bound and gagged or when grappled.

I see no issue with psi characters as long as they cast as arcane casters.

Actually, they can't. Having limited movement (similer to being in a grapple) requires psionics to a concentration check DC 20 + the power's level or lose it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#grapplingorPinned), which, to me, surgests that being bound and gagged, at the very least, requires a check, not unlike spellcasters. Unlike spellcasters however, psions don't have metapsionic reducers or the capacity to use more than one at any one time. Arcanists can still lob around still/silent/quicken spells.

Besides, the "being able to cast while bound" isn't as powerful as it seems. I just played a psion in a game where the party was captured and having no such limitations was no help at all. Yes, theoretically, I could just dimension door away, but I would have still have been in sight of the foes who just happened to be mounted. Even if I could outrun them, there wouldn't have been anything to stop them coup de gracing the party if I didn't return.

I absolutely love psionics. And truthfully, I can't stand it when people complain about them. I'm not saying it's perfect, but just that 9 times out of 10 the complaints are unfounded. I've personally seen players scream "Psions are broken" without any experience. I once throw a psion NPC at a party and it was declared overpowering...never mind that, since I was new to psionics at the time, that he only had powers that were identical to spells (Fly, Disintegrate etc).

I've seen player convinced that the feats were broken due to an overpowering PC...never mind that the PC was an ubercharger with a +5, intellegent, bane and holy (and FYI, both worked against every foe fought) weapon that also provided him with freedom of movment. Oh, and did I mention that he got this weapon at level 13?

Admittily, I don't care too much for the ardent and divine mind..though it's mostly the fluff aspects. I think it's a little silly to have a completely different form of magic if you're just going to make it represent another. However, if I was running a game where, mechanically at least, psionics replaced core casters, I wouldn't mind throwing them in one bit.

[Snails]

The potential for Psion novas are higher than Wizards, but the issue is essentially the same.

What makes Wizards/Psions completely over the top is when they are handed the luxury of controlling "the game" on a silver platter -- fight only when they want to fight, pre-buff always, and rest whenever they want to rest.

If you put a wizard in a dungeon crawl, when the party is not entirely sure whether there are going to be 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 combats today, the standard arguments for wizards being more powerful than fighters all melt away.

Ditto for psions. Nova becomes a liability if the player is reckless...hope you own lots of dorjes.

The balancing act for the DM is to keep the PCs unsure about the level of violence they will encounter in the day, while not pushing the players such that they feel railroaded. The oldest trick in the book is to harass the party with low reward wandering monsters to soak up resources if the PCs are too risk aversive. There are many possible story incentives to the creative DM.

[Myrmex]

Making concentration checks as a manifester is trivial, as you can just expend your psionic focus (or the one in your psicrystal, assuming you nabbed those feats) to take 15.

I'm playing a wiz/psion (currently at level 3), and getting to take 15 on my concentration checks is AWESOME, since at low levels, you stand a pretty good chance of failing a concentration check.

[CockroachTeaParty]

The 'quick n'dirty' fix for the much-beleagured Divine Mind is to give them a Fighter's BAB.

Eh... as for re-flavoring and renaming them, I'm having more trouble. Perhaps call them 'Zealots,' where their devotion to certain causes, philosophies, or mantles turns into psychic strength and conviction? They'd be similar to Crusaders then, but their power is less faith-based and more internal conviction based (is there a difference?).

[Dimers]

Unlike spellcasters however, psions don't have metapsionic reducers or the capacity to use more than one [metapsi feat] at any one time. Arcanists can still lob around still/silent/quicken spells.

Not that invalidates your point, but technically they could include two metapsi effects at a time, with Psicrystal Containment feat.

[tyckspoon]

Not that invalidates your point, but technically they could include two metapsi effects at a time, with Psicrystal Containment feat.

And spend two allotments of extra PP to activate them, which is pulled directly from the potential base power of the.. er, power, and then spend two move actions to recover them before they do it again. (This is one of the things that severely limits high-end optimization of psionic blasting, incidentally- using Empower/Maximize/whatever can make the power actively *worse*.)

[Flickerdart]

If you put a wizard in a dungeon crawl, when the party is not entirely sure whether there are going to be 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 combats today, the standard arguments for wizards being more powerful than fighters all melt away.
Not true. A Wizard can easily handle 5 encounters past the early levels, and before that they have to try hard to unbalance anything. When you only need one or two spells to polish off the enemy, then jacking up the amount of encounters won't hurt you, but it will hurt the Fighter who's taking more axes to the face. Sure, you could bleed the Wizard dry of spells, but after that many encounters everyone else will have already died.

[Arakune]

And spend two allotments of extra PP to activate them, which is pulled directly from the potential base power of the.. er, power, and then spend two move actions to recover them before they do it again. (This is one of the things that severely limits high-end optimization of psionic blasting, incidentally- using Empower/Maximize/whatever can make the power actively *worse*.)

And the power will be a lot weaker than normal if it's augmented or it's a low level power with fixed cost. ML caps for the rescue!

edit: I want to know what pixed cost could mean.

[Oslecamo]

Not true. A Wizard can easily handle 5 encounters past the early levels, and before that they have to try hard to unbalance anything. When you only need one or two spells to polish off the enemy,

Now that's the untrue part. At higher levels, the monsters start to get immunities, high mobility powers, spell resistance, high HP and all kind of nasty defenses that make it impossible for the wizard to win with just one spell. Blah blah glitterdust the monster can still one hit you, throw in blindfight and can hit you quite easily despite being blind. If the players optimize, the DM must optimize back.

If your DM only throws spell fodder monsters, we may as well claim the DM throws only blinking assassins of doom imune to magic who can enter extradimensional spaces.

[Myrmex]

Not true. A Wizard can easily handle 5 encounters past the early levels, and before that they have to try hard to unbalance anything. When you only need one or two spells to polish off the enemy, then jacking up the amount of encounters won't hurt you, but it will hurt the Fighter who's taking more axes to the face. Sure, you could bleed the Wizard dry of spells, but after that many encounters everyone else will have already died.

Unless, of course, encounters are designed such that the wizard is required to solid fog/web/grease half the encounter for them to stand a chance, and the fighter is just there to make sure the wizard doesn't have to waste spells on doing direct damage.

It's kind of like how a high altitude bomber softens up the resistance for the ground forces.

[DragoonWraith]

Unless, of course, encounters are designed such that the wizard is required to solid fog/web/grease half the encounter for them to stand a chance, and the fighter is just there to make sure the wizard doesn't have to waste spells on doing direct damage.

It's kind of like how a high altitude bomber softens up the resistance for the ground forces.
But then you run into the problem of the fighter being merely "mop up", having no ability to handle the encounter without the Wizard first neutering everything.

I also cannot imagine why you would need Solid Fog and Web and Grease in a single encounter...

[Myrmex]

But then you run into the problem of the fighter being merely "mop up", having no ability to handle the encounter without the Wizard first neutering everything.

That's what damage dealers are there for, though. Low levels they keep things off the wizard, higher levels they do absurd amounts of damage while the wizard keeps the hoards off him (and make him fly, shoot lasers out of his sword, etc).


I also cannot imagine why you would need Solid Fog and Web and Grease in a single encounter...

I put those in descending order from when you get access to them. Solid Fog is a great pick; unless you're level 1.

[Lycanthromancer]

Apparently an excellent fix to the divine mind is to take the ardent's fluff, and gestalt ardent and divine mind together (using the ardent's power and pp progression). Ardent is useful, but isn't quite on par with the psion for usefulness, especially given his disability when PrCing out. Yes, lost manifester levels don't hurt quite as much, but they don't gain additional mantles when they nab prestige classes, which severely limit their powers known (unlike other manifesters). Also, they don't gain those oh-so-precious bonus feats that psions and psywars get, which really are required because of how feat-starved manifesters tend to be.

Tossing on the divine mind's abilities with the ardent's manifesting seems to make a considerable amount of mechanical and fluffy sense, especially since they were apparently the same class originally anyway.

[Draz74]

Apparently an excellent fix to the divine mind is to take the ardent's fluff, and gestalt ardent and divine mind together (using the ardent's power and pp progression). Ardent is useful, but isn't quite on par with the psion for usefulness, especially given his disability when PrCing out. Yes, lost manifester levels don't hurt quite as much, but they don't gain additional mantles when they nab prestige classes, which severely limit their powers known (unlike other manifesters). Also, they don't gain those oh-so-precious bonus feats that psions and psywars get, which really are required because of how feat-starved manifesters tend to be.

Tossing on the divine mind's abilities with the ardent's manifesting seems to make a considerable amount of mechanical and fluffy sense, especially since they were apparently the same class originally anyway.

Sounds reasonable if you wanted to get these classes up to Tier 2 (like the Psion). But Tier 3 seems to be a more popular target choice for people who are "fixing" classes, and the Ardent is already Tier 3 without help.

[Flickerdart]

Unless, of course, encounters are designed such that the wizard is required to solid fog/web/grease half the encounter for them to stand a chance, and the fighter is just there to make sure the wizard doesn't have to waste spells on doing direct damage.

It's kind of like how a high altitude bomber softens up the resistance for the ground forces.
Most routine encounters don't take more than three turns. You can't fit more than a certain number of spells into completing them.


Now that's the untrue part. At higher levels, the monsters start to get immunities, high mobility powers, spell resistance, high HP and all kind of nasty defenses that make it impossible for the wizard to win with just one spell. Blah blah glitterdust the monster can still one hit you, throw in blindfight and can hit you quite easily despite being blind. If the players optimize, the DM must optimize back.

If your DM only throws spell fodder monsters, we may as well claim the DM throws only blinking assassins of doom imune to magic who can enter extradimensional spaces.
At those higher levels, Wizards can begin to summon and bind minions that make them be able to expend zero spells and still come out on top. The short round duration of combat is also a factor here.

Note, that I'm not saying the Wizard is winning it alone while the rest of the party stand in the corner and smoke nervously. They're also doing stuff. The Wizard doesn't have to kill everything. But his dedicated targets won't take more than a handful of spells to bring down. Throwing Glitterdust onto a monster with Blindfight is still an effective tactic however, as it can't find you. All Blindfight does is let them reroll concealment, and if they can't find you, they don't get to roll in the first place. So they're pretty much neutralized so long as you stay quiet (or move after casting), and there are other spells besides Glitterdust, like Web, that Blindfight (a highly specific feat) won't stop. So you just wasted a feat.

[Quasar]

Certainly at lower levels, a psionic character will seem more powerful for the ability to scale his powers. Also, lower level powers will stay relevant at later levels because they can be scaled.
However, I did some calculations based on the Sorceror's spells per day converted into power points, and it turns out that at higher levels a Psion will be able to crank out more high power powers, but will not be able to "cast" for as long as a sorceror even without scaling his powers.
Unless the psion only manifests low cost powers without scaling them. Then he can last for much longer than a Sorceror of equal level.

[Optimystik]

The 'quick n'dirty' fix for the much-beleagured Divine Mind is to give them a Fighter's BAB.

I don't have a problem with that - They're still MAD and worse than pure paladins at that point. They're not fear immune and don't get CHA to saves. So that's a good start.


Eh... as for re-flavoring and renaming them, I'm having more trouble. Perhaps call them 'Zealots,' where their devotion to certain causes, philosophies, or mantles turns into psychic strength and conviction? They'd be similar to Crusaders then, but their power is less faith-based and more internal conviction based (is there a difference?).

That's also a great start! Their power would not come from an explicit deity, but their devotion to one particular extreme. They would have to be LG, LE, CG or CE, and choose from the same philosophies as the "Paladins of X" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm) in UA, only minus the explicitly religious devotion. The mantles they would have access to would then depend on those philosophies. They would be closer to Solars (and Pit Fiends, Eladrins and Balors) than any deity, because those beings represent the pure devotion to a "corner" alignment's ideal.


Apparently an excellent fix to the divine mind is to take the ardent's fluff, and gestalt ardent and divine mind together (using the ardent's power and pp progression). Ardent is useful, but isn't quite on par with the psion for usefulness, especially given his disability when PrCing out. Yes, lost manifester levels don't hurt quite as much, but they don't gain additional mantles when they nab prestige classes, which severely limit their powers known (unlike other manifesters). Also, they don't gain those oh-so-precious bonus feats that psions and psywars get, which really are required because of how feat-starved manifesters tend to be.

Tossing on the divine mind's abilities with the ardent's manifesting seems to make a considerable amount of mechanical and fluffy sense, especially since they were apparently the same class originally anyway.

I see your point, but I think it's possible to make both classes viable (both crunch- and fluff-wise) without merging them. Besides, I like Cockroach's idea that the Zealot (Divine Mind) is based on extremism, while the Ardent has the freedom to be biased or moderate as they choose, just as the various Paladins are typically more opinionated than Clerics even within the same faith.

The fact that no PrCs grant mantles is a crippling blow to both classes, I agree.

I might make a separate thread for this to keep the topic on track.


Certainly at lower levels, a psionic character will seem more powerful for the ability to scale his powers. Also, lower level powers will stay relevant at later levels because they can be scaled.
However, I did some calculations based on the Sorceror's spells per day converted into power points, and it turns out that at higher levels a Psion will be able to crank out more high power powers, but will not be able to "cast" for as long as a sorceror even without scaling his powers.
Unless the psion only manifests low cost powers without scaling them. Then he can last for much longer than a Sorceror of equal level.

To get back on topic, you're exactly right. Psions seem like they have a lot of juice, but only without augmentation, which makes many of their powers weak. WITH augmentation they can't even stand up to sorcerers, FS or specialists.

There's also the fact that psionics lacks the entire illusion school, which is a bigger disadvantage than many people realize.

[Myou]

Umm... what fluff? The XPH has next to nothing but rules and precious little else. Every page is packed with good stuff, but like, no fluff. What fluff are you speaking of?

-X

Every single power, ability, feat and class has fluff, from the name to the description.


PP beats Vancian any day.

At what? It loses horribly in fluff.

If you mean the mechanic, I agree that PP are better. I use a modified Spell Points system, but still prefer Vancian arcane magic to psionics.

[Foryn Gilnith]

It's easier to refluff psionics IMO than it is to change normal magic to spell points.

[Ashiel]

I just wanted to jump in and say again how I appreciate your feedback. There's a lot of really good information in this thread (discussing rules) as well as plenty of individual commentary on the topic. I appreciate it lots.

The thread's getting pretty big, and I wonder how much further it can go. I'm still anxious to find out if there are anymore people on the boards that have a few coppers for the pile. :smallsmile:

[Lamech]

Umm... guys? Psions have this bestow power ablity, which is pretty much designed to make it so they can recharge PP... so they kind of win HARD when it comes to endurence over the course of several encounters.

(Well, if your DM doesn't ban it... which probably will happen, but thats not the point.)

[Optimystik]

At what? It loses horribly in fluff.

I thoroughly disagree; I find psionics to have much more consistent fluff than traditional magic. Magic is very inconsistent as where the power actually comes from, especially Arcane magic - whether its "The Weave" or "Mana" or some bastardized form of alchemy ("combine equal parts bat poop and butterfly wings, then chant for no well-explained reason." ) It gets worse when they try to compare arcane to divine magic: Compared to divine spells, arcane spells are more likely to produce dramatic results. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm) Wtf?

Divine is worse. "It comes from the gods, except it doesn't." (Ur-Priest, Clerics of ideals, Archivists etc.) "It comes from nature, except it doesn't." (Blighter, Urban Rangers etc.) "It requires wisdom and understanding, except it doesn't." (Shugenja.)

But the difference between Psionic Powers and Mantles is much clearer. Psionic powers come from mental discipline or force of personality (INT/WIS or CHA respectively.) Mantles are the mental distillation of a particular philosophy (WIS.) Expressing these mental abilities requires only the Astral Plane - not weaves or Mana or bat poop, except in Faerun where they have to shoehorn the Weave into everything anyway. How many planes does Magic draw from? Well, you've got the elemental ones, then the aligned ones, the transient ones like the Ethereal plane, then the Plane of Shadow which apparently lets you do everything from teleportation to summoning to contingencies to even throwing fireballs... I could go on.

Now WotC has failed at consistently applying that fluff properly (most notably in the case of the Divine Mind, where they simply decided "lets give a paladin psionic powers, let him choose his deity and call it a day") but the rest of the base classes have solid fluff.

[Ashiel]

Umm... guys? Psions have this bestow power ablity, which is pretty much designed to make it so they can recharge PP... so they kind of win HARD when it comes to endurence over the course of several encounters.

(Well, if your DM doesn't ban it... which probably will happen, but thats not the point.)
Bestow Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bestowPower.htm).

The power as written makes it obviously ineffective for using it as a good method of "recharging". It can allow for multiple psionic characters to "share" their power points, but at a diminishing rate. It's even specifically mentioned that you can't make it into a psionic item or anything of the sort, preventing you from carrying around a recharge stick.

I believe that there was some sort of bestow-power based abuse developed on the CharOp boards back in the day, but I remember it was rather specific in its use, and I can't remember how to pull it off. Anyone remember how? (I'm just curious. :smalltongue:)

[Lamech]

Huh? You just reduce its cost a few points. For example earth power plus a couple fo wild surge points. (Preferably from archaic innate, so you don't lose PP because wilder level=0.) And then... boom! you just added four power points for the cost of three.

[9mm]

Huh? You just reduce its cost a few points. For example earth power plus a couple fo wild surge points. (Preferably from archaic innate, so you don't lose PP because wilder level=0.) And then... boom! you just added four power points for the cost of three.

for a net total of: 1pp. Fear the borkeness!

there are better things to use your wild surges on.

[Foryn Gilnith]

What does the Astral Plane have to do with psionics? What does any plane have to do with magic? Magic isn't linked to a plane. Neither is the Desert Wind school and neither is the power of a longbow to fire arrows.

The problem with arcane magic fluff: Too generic, never explained well
The problem with divine magic fluff: Too generic, never explained well
The problem with psionic fluff: Too many "science-y" words and references to things like ectoplasm
The problem with binding fluff: Too much reliance on a questionably realistic overreaction to binding from traditional power bases
The problem with Shadowcasting fluff: Too much power given to the Plane of Shadow
The problem with Truenaming fluff: Law of Resistance lolwut
The problem with Incarnum fluff: Too much blue? I can't think of an immediate problem

IMO the least problematic problem is the one with magic. The problem is that there's no explanation, only hints of reasoning that are inconsistent if used as a proper system. So just make your own. As opposed to binding, for example, where you need to pull out a lot of the existing junk if you want to adapt it for personal use.

For example, you can make arcane magic more "Vancian". The power is in the spell component words, which have life and power of their own. These words are actually difficult to say. Somatic gestures activate parts of the mind that make it easier to go through the process of saying the spell. Material components are useless relics, but using them comforts traditional arcane spellcasters and serve as a placebo of sorts to more easily say the spell. Still Spell is casting without the physical aids that activate pathways in the mind. Eschew Materials is moving beyond the quasi-alchemical placebos. Silent Spell...
Eh, so it's not that simple. *shrug*

[Optimystik]

Huh? You just reduce its cost a few points. For example earth power plus a couple fo wild surge points. (Preferably from archaic innate, so you don't lose PP because wilder level=0.) And then... boom! you just added four power points for the cost of three.

And? You not only burned your actions doing that, you can only give yourself points = to your manifester level.

That's right, TOTAL points, not just extra ones. So you burn 1 point to get 2, the power counts the two even though you're only gaining a net of one. So at level 10, you can only "gain" 5 PP. (Burn 5, get 10, net 5.) "Four points for the cost of three" gets you 5 free PP at Mlevel 20. Stop the presses!

Not to mention, using this "trick" requires you to have Wild Surge (i.e. be either a Wilder or an AI), both of which are very subpar choices.

[ErrantX]

Every single power, ability, feat and class has fluff, from the name to the description.

Are any powers named after Greyhawk celebrities? Do any powers specifically detail things about a world? They're no more fluffed than magic missile. Vancian casting has more fluff in the core PHB then the XPH. I have to disagree with you here. There is a difference between descriptive text and fluff.

-X

[Optimystik]

IMO the least problematic problem is the one with magic. The problem is that there's no explanation, only hints of reasoning that are inconsistent if used as a proper system. So just make your own. As opposed to binding, for example, where you need to pull out a lot of the existing junk if you want to adapt it for personal use.

Least problematic? You've got to be kidding.

Your only problem with psionics was "science-y words." (I'm going to lump the ectoplasm reference in there, since that itself is a "science-y word.") That says nothing about its consistency and everything about your personal preferences.

However, Psionic fluff is consistent whether you feel it fits D&D or not. Magic is not and never has been. The exact reasons that casters need material components and foci are never clear in any edition, least of all 3.5. "Mystra and Boccob consciously decided to limit all mortal casters" says one source. "The components themselves have magical properties" says another. (Never mind that a component pouch never detects as magic.) Verbal components are waved off in equal parts as "the language of magic" or "the words spoken at creation" or even just Common for spells that require verbal input like Wish. Somatic components are arbitrary; why do I need to wiggle my fingers to charm someone, or dispel a spell?

Psionics are powered by one thing - thought. I find this to be a much cleaner and more elegant method.

You're also wrong about magic: it is explicitly linked to various planes, just inconsistently. Healing channels energy straight from the PEP. Necromancy draws energy from (or perhaps more accurately, sends it to) the NEP. [Shadow] Illusions, Plane of Shadow. Conjuration pulls from everywhere. Divination gets half its info from the Astral Plane, some from specific Outsiders, and the rest from the environment. Meanwhile Evocation draws from nothing at all, Abjuration sends magic to nowhere at all, and Enchantment must be powered by friction with all the finger-wiggling enchanters have to do.

Psionics relies solely on the Astral Plane for external effects, which we already know is "a conduit to all other planes." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm) Thus the fact that IT can manifest anything is not a flavor issue.

Truenaming and Mysteries, I agree with you on; their fluff is pretty ridiculous as well. Binding has amazing flavor with the right DM; just because the Influences don't always force specific crunch penalties doesn't mean that the DM should let you get away with ignoring them. But psionics are miles ahead of all of them.

[Ashiel]

Huh? You just reduce its cost a few points. For example earth power plus a couple of wild surge points. (Preferably from archaic innate, so you don't lose PP because wilder level=0.) And then... boom! you just added four power points for the cost of three.

Can you give me some examples of how to lower the cost of power, using the XPH? It would appear to me that at minimum you would need to manifest the power for 2pp (reduced by 1 for using an item, 3pp normally), then wild surge at least +3 to get a net gain of 2, but a 15% chance of loosing your wilder level * PP, with 7 being the minimum. If you're a 20th level wilder, it favors you less as you could gain +2pp while risking a 15% chance of -20pp.

I'm not sure what earth power is, 'cause I couldn't find anything in the SRD with a quick search (maybe not thorough enough), and I'm not sure what an archiac initiate is unless it came from CompPsi (which is questionable itself), but I think I see the idea here.

Perhaps a good solution would be to merely change the target of the power to another psionic creature other than yourself? Even still, I'm uncertain exactly if this a legitimate problem...but I'm glad to know how it works now. Thank you, Lamech. :smallsmile:

[Amphetryon]

There is a difference between descriptive text and fluffColor me thoroughly confused. What do you think fluff is, aside from non-mechanics related text, that differentiates it so well from descriptive text?

[Lycanthromancer]

What does the Astral Plane have to do with psionics?The Astral Plane is the stuff of the mind made manifest. It's made of the shared intellect of every thing that has ever existed. It's literally made of thought. That's why it encompasses all other planes; it exists wherever anything that can think exists.

I can't think of anything more fitting for psionics (ie, the power of the mind) than that.


The problem with arcane magic fluff: Too generic, never explained well
The problem with divine magic fluff: Too generic, never explained well
The problem with psionic fluff: Too many "science-y" words and references to things like ectoplasmUh...no. You've got that 100% backwards. Arcane and divine have mechanics that clumsily try to enforce their fluff. Mages have spellbooks, dance around singing "I'm a little teapot" and throw poo like monkeys. You can't change the fluff without changing the mechanics, and it's ridiculous besides. Refluffing requires that you take all of the ridiculous components into account, which severely limits how far you can go.

Psionics, on the other hand, really don't have much enforcing what little flavor is there. Names can be changed. Crystals can be refluffed to gems, or metals, or stone tablets, or difficult-to-damage scrolls, or dragonscales, or hardbound books, or whatever. They keep all of their knowledge within their own heads, and so can represent magic in any number of ways. I've refluffed them as wizards; as sorcerers; as spontaneously manifested magical abilities of a creature masquerading as a normal person; as someone channeling divine energy from the gods; as someone so in tune with their surroundings that they alter themselves to change the world around them (like a voodoo doll); as someone who receives their dark powers from a pact with a fiend; as a boy who was tainted by the positive and negative energy planes and who channels those energies in myriad ways; as a monk channeling his ki via Charles Atlas superpowers; as a superhero bitten by a radioactive emo drow spider; and dozens of others, which you just can't do with wizards, sorcerers, clerics, or druids, simply because you have to actually alter the mechanics that say, "This is what all characters of this class have to be."

As for the naming conventions? Which is more "scientific," A. polymorph (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/polymorph?r=75) or B. metamorphosis (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/metamorphosis?r=75)? If you answered anything but C. none of the above, you get an F and have to take remedial grade-school science courses for the rest of your life. Just because one uses Latin scientific terms and the other uses Greek scientific terms doesn't make one more "science-y" than the other. It just means one uses Latin and the other uses Greek.

And for your information, ectoplasm (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ectoplasm?r=75) is actually a spiritual term regarding the substance of the spirit (see: ghosts in the Monster Manual), though it does refer to cellular fluids (but that terminology came later (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ecto-), meaning that psionics' use of it is actually less scientific than the term teleport (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/teleportation?r=75) - which was used in arcane magic first, btw).

[Doc Roc]

I use it, extensively. I support it wholeheartedly. Considerably less in the way of psionics is on the ToS ban list than anything else excluding possibly ToM\MoI. And those hardly count. I think we even have more changes to ToB stuff than psionics.

[Lamech]

Can you give me some examples of how to lower the cost of power, using the XPH? It would appear to me that at minimum you would need to manifest the power for 2pp (reduced by 1 for using an item, 3pp normally), then wild surge at least +3 to get a net gain of 2, but a 15% chance of loosing your wilder level * PP, with 7 being the minimum. If you're a 20th level wilder, it favors you less as you could gain +2pp while risking a 15% chance of -20pp.

I'm not sure what earth power is, 'cause I couldn't find anything in the SRD with a quick search (maybe not thorough enough), and I'm not sure what an archiac initiate is unless it came from CompPsi (which is questionable itself), but I think I see the idea here.

Perhaps a good solution would be to merely change the target of the power to another psionic creature other than yourself? Even still, I'm uncertain exactly if this a legitimate problem...but I'm glad to know how it works now. Thank you, Lamech. :smallsmile:
Earth power is in races of stone the initiate is in CompPsi. You need more than the XPH for this to work. The other nasty trick Psions have is metamorphic transfer. That feat is bad.

[Lycanthromancer]

Earth power is in races of stone the initiate is in CompPsi. You need more than the XPH for this to work. The other nasty trick Psions have is metamorphic transfer. That feat is bad.Metamorphic Transfer is definitely abusable, but it's certainly fun.

[Oslecamo]

Psionics, on the other hand, really don't have much enforcing what little flavor is there. Names can be changed. Crystals can be refluffed to gems, or metals, or stone tablets, or difficult-to-damage scrolls, or dragonscales, or hardbound books, or whatever. They keep all of their knowledge within their own heads, and so can represent magic in any number of ways. I've refluffed them as wizards; as sorcerers; as spontaneously manifested magical abilities of a creature masquerading as a normal person; as someone channeling divine energy from the gods; as someone so in tune with their surroundings that they alter themselves to change the world around them (like a voodoo doll); as someone who receives their dark powers from a pact with a fiend; as a boy who was tainted by the positive and negative energy planes and who channels those energies in myriad ways; as a monk channeling his ki via Charles Atlas superpowers; as a superhero bitten by a radioactive emo drow spider; and dozens of others, which you just can't do with wizards, sorcerers, clerics, or druids, simply because you have to actually alter the mechanics that say, "This is what all characters of this class have to be."

Actualy, from your own logic, you can't do any of that.

Because the psionics have no components, so adding components of your own counts as changing, and thus you can't claim that it comes from a pact or from the gods or whatever whitout altering the mechanics. Changing nothing into something is still a change.

And hey, just as you can change the name of the psionic stuff, I can change the name of the arcane! Poop? Let's call it refined fire essence! It's made of poop, but wizards kill anyone who dares to name it otherwise, just as your psions kill anyone who dare to say their demonic pacts exist only on their mind (literaly).

[NEO|Phyte]

Because the psionics have no components, so adding components of your own counts as changing, and thus you can't claim that it comes from a pact or from the gods or whatever whitout altering the mechanics. Changing nothing into something is still a change.
Where was he adding components to anything in what you had quoted? Not all samurai are Samurai.

[Tiktakkat]

I allow psionics. So far I have not found them overpowered. The only significant issue I have discovered with them is the augmentation mechanic, which can enable a player to wallow in the "15 minute workday". Other than having to watch out for that I have no problems with psionics, other than minor mechanical theoretical issues related to the skills for them.

[Morty]

I don't use it at all, myself. I like neither the flavor nor the mechanics, so I simply see no reason to. I find magic classes from PHB superior in every regard excpept balance. And before anyone asks: yes, I do know you can't put more power points into a single manifesting than your manifester level.

[Lycanthromancer]

I don't use it at all, myself. I like neither the flavor nor the mechanics, so I simply see no reason to. I find magic classes from PHB superior in every regard excpept balance. And before anyone asks: yes, I do know you can't put more power points into a single manifesting than your manifester level.You find the bookkeeping required for casting superior to that of psionics? :smallconfused:

[Morty]

You find the bookkeeping required for casting superior to that of psionics? :smallconfused:

I don't mind some more bookkeeping if the system is better.

[Optimystik]

While refluffing psionics is possible, care must be taken not to have the powers come from an external source - doing so defeats the entire purpose of the system. So while I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of Lycan's post, I'd draw the line at things like "pacts with fiends," "divine energy from the gods," and "radioactive drowspiders."

Psionics represents internal potential; power that does not come from capricious deities, alchemic combinations or arcane mysteries. It is the potential of all sentient beings. Lords of Madness: EVERY being with a brain possesses psychic energy; psionicists are merely those individuals who know how to use theirs, whether via mental discipline, force of will, or accessing some hidden truth. It most certainly cannot (or should not) come from any kind of outsider. The very name of such beings denotes externality, so they have nothing to do with that internal potential. This is the key and utter failure of the Divine Mind's fluff.


I don't mind some more bookkeeping if the system is better.

...You mean Vancian?

*rolls over laughing*

[Tavar]

How is Vancian better?

[Morty]

...You mean Vancian?

*rolls over laughing*

:smallannoyed:
I knew it was a bad idea to post in this thread in the first place. If you have nothing meaningful to contribute when someone says something less than positive about psionics or doesn't spew bile all over Vancian casting, then I see no point in discussing it any futher.

[Terazul]

I don't mind some more bookkeeping if the system is better.
What particularly do you find "better" about Arcane/Divine? Like, what specifically about them is "superior in every regard" for you on a case-by-case basis?

Just wondering. Cuz, y'know. Discussion thread.

Edit: Ninja'd. Sort of... :smallfrown:

[Tavar]

:smallannoyed:
I knew it was a bad idea to post in this thread in the first place. If you guys have nothing meaningful to contribute when someone says something less than positive about your precious psionics or doesn't spew bile all over Vancian casting, then I see no point in discussing it any futher.

Wow, take a chill pill. His reaction's pretty common: Vanican is less intuitive, more easily abused, and less applicable to different fantasy worlds.

Also, why don't you have to present any arguments. You essentially came in and said X is better, and when someone replies, no it isn't, you left in a huff because we're not treating your argument with dignity and respect. Well, then, make an argument.

[Morty]

Wow, take a chill pill. His reaction's pretty common: Vanican is less intuitive, more easily abused, and less applicable to different fantasy worlds.

Also, why don't you have to present any arguments. You essentially came in and said X is better, and when someone replies, no it isn't, you left in a huff because we're not treating your argument with dignity and respect. Well, then, make an argument.

There is a huge difference between asking for a more detailed opinion and laughing at someone. And I see nothing wrong in my original post either. The OP asks if people use psionics. I don't, because I find normal casting superior. Not any different than people who say "yeah, I use it, it's cool and better than core casters".
As to why I consider it better - it's less about me liking Vancian casting(though I do like it) and more about finding power points as prestened in the system bland and boring. I prefer systems of magic - for the lack of a better word - that are distinctive in some way.

[Emmerask]

I don´t own the book as long as none of my players buys it and brings it with him I wont allow psionics :smallwink:

If someone would buy it I don´t see any reason not to allow it sure you can create op builds (same with any other class magic system etc) but as a dm you can ban those...

[Optimystik]

:smallannoyed:
I knew it was a bad idea to post in this thread in the first place. If you have nothing meaningful to contribute when someone says something less than positive about your precious psionics or doesn't spew bile all over Vancian casting, then I see no point in discussing it any futher.

Um, unlike you, I HAVE been contributing to this thread. If you want your claims taken seriously, support them. Don't just throw out some general statement that may or may not even have anything to do with the topic and expect everyone to line up behind you.

I didn't laugh at YOU either. I laughed at your statement. If you want to take everything on a message board seriously, do it without mentioning me or my "precious psionics."

[Blackfang108]

I don´t own the book as long as none of my players buys it and brings it with him I wont allow psionics :smallwink:

If someone would buy it I don´t see any reason not to allow it sure you can create op builds (same with any other class magic system etc) but as a dm you can ban those...

*points to SRD*

There, not owning XPH is now no excuse.

[Tavar]

There is a huge difference between asking for a more detailed opinion and laughing at someone. And I see nothing wrong in my original post either.

There's nothing wrong with it. But because it's a simple "X is better", you can't automatically expect a detailed response. Plus, this is the internet: you need a somewhat thick skin if you're going to post here.

As for the rest, I don't know. The ability to change how powerful you're abilities are at whim is kinda interesting, especially with some of the options you can use to do it.


Oh, and Emmerask, it is available on the SRD. Just so you know.

[Morty]

Um, unlike you, I HAVE been contributing to this thread. If you want your claims taken seriously, support them. Don't just throw out some general statement that may or may not even have anything to do with the topic and expect everyone to line up behind you.

I admit I might have supported by claim better, but it was perfectly on topic. The OP asked if people use psionics. I don't, and I said it.


I didn't laugh at YOU either. I laughed at your statement. If you want to take everything on a message board seriously, do it without mentioning me or my "precious psionics."

Right, I did go a bit overboard, sorry about that. But it happens when someone laughs at what I say, or so it seems.



As for the rest, I don't know. The ability to change how powerful you're abilities are at whim is kinda interesting, especially with some of the options you can use to do it.

Yes, augmentation is rather interesting. But not enough for me and besides, I prefer spells that are set in stone from a flavor perspective.

[Eagle]

Psionics, regardless of how you feel about the fluff and pictures that come with it, is objectively a worse system than spell slots. The system is honestly completely broken. You're using your 1st and 2nd level 'spells' to eventually power your 9th level 'spells', and this in and of itself destroys any semblance of balance compared to the core casting system.

The entire mechanic of power points encourages the manifester to always, always manifest the full number of power points per turn that he is capable of. Otherwise, he's not doing something level-appropriate in that turn. And when he's out of level-appropriate things to do (ie. fully augmented powers) he literally has nothing left. There's no rationing, no strategy behind how many power points to pour into a power unless you know EXACTLY how much hp, for example, the hobgoblin has left.

With traditional spellcasting there's redundancy built in. The smart player starts off with the big guns, and goes to progressively smaller and smaller guns as he uses up his resources for the day. The 20th level manifester shoots off 20 power point powers until he's out, and then uses a crossbow. In addition, since the entire system is based off of a 'powers known' mechanic, your character is inevitably going to have one or two tricks that they pull out ALL THE DAMN TIME and nothing else, since it would be overlapping. Psionic characters can't afford to have overlapping powers, because they have so few powers known. All of this combines to make psionics repetitive, tactically boring, and predictable.

The only reason people call it more 'balanced' than normal casting is that it has a tiny number of powers published compared to the spells out there. And there are game-breaking exploits even in that small array from the two 3.5 sourcebooks.

[Blackfang108]

Psionics, regardless of how you feel about the fluff and pictures that come with it, is objectively a worse system than spell slots. The system is honestly completely broken. You're using your 1st and 2nd level 'spells' to eventually power your 9th level 'spells', and this in and of itself destroys any semblance of balance compared to the core casting system.

The entire mechanic of power points encourages the manifester to always, always manifest the full number of power points per turn that he is capable of. Otherwise, he's not doing something level-appropriate in that turn. And when he's out of level-appropriate things to do (ie. fully augmented powers) he literally has nothing left. There's no rationing, no strategy behind how many power points to pour into a power unless you know EXACTLY how much hp, for example, the hobgoblin has left.

With traditional spellcasting there's redundancy built in. The smart player starts off with the big guns, and goes to progressively smaller and smaller guns as he uses up his resources for the day. The 20th level manifester shoots off 20 power point powers until he's out, and then uses a crossbow. In addition, since the entire system is based off of a 'powers known' mechanic, your character is inevitably going to have one or two tricks that they pull out ALL THE DAMN TIME and nothing else, since it would be overlapping. Psionic characters can't afford to have overlapping powers, because they have so few powers known. All of this combines to make psionics repetitive, tactically boring, and predictable.

The only reason people call it more 'balanced' than normal casting is that it has a tiny number of powers published compared to the spells out there. And there are game-breaking exploits even in that small array from the two 3.5 sourcebooks.

Someone's never read the FAQ.

Probably ninj'd. Stupid 60 second limit.

[Eagle]

Someone's never read the FAQ.

Probably ninj'd. Stupid 60 second limit.

... Am I missing something?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Psionics, regardless of how you feel about the fluff and pictures that come with it, is objectively a worse system than spell slots. The system is honestly completely broken. You're using your 1st and 2nd level 'spells' to eventually power your 9th level 'spells', and this in and of itself destroys any semblance of balance compared to the core casting system.

The entire mechanic of power points encourages the manifester to always, always manifest the full number of power points per turn that he is capable of. Otherwise, he's not doing something level-appropriate in that turn. And when he's out of level-appropriate things to do (ie. fully augmented powers) he literally has nothing left. There's no rationing, no strategy behind how many power points to pour into a power unless you know EXACTLY how much hp, for example, the hobgoblin has left.

With traditional spellcasting there's redundancy built in. The smart player starts off with the big guns, and goes to progressively smaller and smaller guns as he uses up his resources for the day. The 20th level manifester shoots off 20 power point powers until he's out, and then uses a crossbow. In addition, since the entire system is based off of a 'powers known' mechanic, your character is inevitably going to have one or two tricks that they pull out ALL THE DAMN TIME and nothing else, since it would be overlapping. Psionic characters can't afford to have overlapping powers, because they have so few powers known. All of this combines to make psionics repetitive, tactically boring, and predictable.

The only reason people call it more 'balanced' than normal casting is that it has a tiny number of powers published compared to the spells out there. And there are game-breaking exploits even in that small array from the two 3.5 sourcebooks.That's the worst way possible to run a Psion. Novas like that are a massive drain on your resources. If you play it right, you manifest lower level powers for the same appx benefit as higher level ones, without burning augmentation(similar to Haste remaining awesome at level 14). Touchsight, for example, will be manifested without Augmentation 99% of the time.

[Emmerask]

*points to SRD*

There, not owning XPH is now no excuse.

Not for me no book, no can do ;)

[Eldariel]

Psionics, regardless of how you feel about the fluff and pictures that come with it, is objectively a worse system than spell slots. The system is honestly completely broken. You're using your 1st and 2nd level 'spells' to eventually power your 9th level 'spells', and this in and of itself destroys any semblance of balance compared to the core casting system.

The entire mechanic of power points encourages the manifester to always, always manifest the full number of power points per turn that he is capable of. Otherwise, he's not doing something level-appropriate in that turn. And when he's out of level-appropriate things to do (ie. fully augmented powers) he literally has nothing left. There's no rationing, no strategy behind how many power points to pour into a power unless you know EXACTLY how much hp, for example, the hobgoblin has left.

With traditional spellcasting there's redundancy built in. The smart player starts off with the big guns, and goes to progressively smaller and smaller guns as he uses up his resources for the day. The 20th level manifester shoots off 20 power point powers until he's out, and then uses a crossbow. In addition, since the entire system is based off of a 'powers known' mechanic, your character is inevitably going to have one or two tricks that they pull out ALL THE DAMN TIME and nothing else, since it would be overlapping. Psionic characters can't afford to have overlapping powers, because they have so few powers known. All of this combines to make psionics repetitive, tactically boring, and predictable.

The only reason people call it more 'balanced' than normal casting is that it has a tiny number of powers published compared to the spells out there. And there are game-breaking exploits even in that small array from the two 3.5 sourcebooks.

It's different. Psionics doesn't have levels in the traditional sense. You'll still be using your 1st level powers on level 20 because of the various augmentation options. Yeah, you'll be using fully augmented powers a lot on 20, but so what? Is that a problem? And no, you won't be using 'em all the time.

The system specifically doesn't try to replicate Vancian casting, why should the drawbacks of Vancian casting carry over to that system? Psionics present a form of magic the wielders understand and can modify much more freely with the powers just settings parameters for such.


A Psion doesn't need to use lesser powers like a Vancian caster, but due to design, the 20 PP versions of the lower level powers are usable right alongside the level 9 powers. That said, a Psion doesn't have abilities as strong as the Vancian caster's. That's why they are better balanced. They're less of an "on-off" button (though high-level Vancian casters have so ridiculously high-effect powers that they can easily last all day thanks to Shapechanges and Greater Planar Bindings and that crap), and indeed can usually continue at the same power level all day, but that power level is lower than that of the Vancian casters. If all the broken spells were made into powers, sure, Psionics would be broken. So thank god they aren't.

[Nero24200]

Psionics, regardless of how you feel about the fluff and pictures that come with it, is objectively a worse system than spell slots. The system is honestly completely broken. You're using your 1st and 2nd level 'spells' to eventually power your 9th level 'spells', and this in and of itself destroys any semblance of balance compared to the core casting system.

The entire mechanic of power points encourages the manifester to always, always manifest the full number of power points per turn that he is capable of. Otherwise, he's not doing something level-appropriate in that turn. And when he's out of level-appropriate things to do (ie. fully augmented powers) he literally has nothing left. There's no rationing, no strategy behind how many power points to pour into a power unless you know EXACTLY how much hp, for example, the hobgoblin has left.

With traditional spellcasting there's redundancy built in. The smart player starts off with the big guns, and goes to progressively smaller and smaller guns as he uses up his resources for the day. The 20th level manifester shoots off 20 power point powers until he's out, and then uses a crossbow. In addition, since the entire system is based off of a 'powers known' mechanic, your character is inevitably going to have one or two tricks that they pull out ALL THE DAMN TIME and nothing else, since it would be overlapping. Psionic characters can't afford to have overlapping powers, because they have so few powers known. All of this combines to make psionics repetitive, tactically boring, and predictable.

The only reason people call it more 'balanced' than normal casting is that it has a tiny number of powers published compared to the spells out there. And there are game-breaking exploits even in that small array from the two 3.5 sourcebooks.

Umm...you do know that a wizard will still have up to 4th level spells if he's going spell for spell with a Nova Psion (and note, wizards are supposed to be the casters who have versitility over spells per day). What's more, the wizard's spell automatically scales with level. If the Psion wants powers to equal his/her manifetser level then he/she has to spend more power points in this manner. Novaing or not, some psions are still going to be casting in this way. It doesn't make them broken.

And quite frankly, it's a pretty poor way of looking at Psions. I've seen plenty of people complain about it's Novaing potential but never one with actual experience of seeing one Nova (except for maybe one or two people, but even then, that's only because the psions are using powers like Schism constantly and alongside other draining powers, which is actually a pretty weak tactic since you'll get even less powers off by the time you run out).

[Blackfang108]

Not for me no book, no can do ;)

*points to printer*

There you go. :smallbiggrin:

It's 100% official, and contains everything you need for Psionics. It comes directly from the company who owns the IP, and it has an easy to read format. :smallsmile:

Are you an employee of WotC? :smallwink:
Why would you would force a player to pay money in order to play something when s/he can legally get it for free, and have 0% of the crunch missing?:smallconfused:

Seriously, you sound like my mother when report card time comes.
Me: Mom, look at my grades, I kicked tail!
Mom: If it's not on paper, it's not a report card.
(I then print out the EXACT SAME page and, all of a sudden, it's a report card.:smallannoyed: IDGI.)

[Foryn Gilnith]

As for the naming conventions?
....
I used scare quotes on "science-y" and the distinctly unprofessional term sciency-y for a reason. But still, thank you for putting forth the argument; that's the most detailed rebuttal of "psionics is sci-fi" that I've seen.



Stuff

And hey, just as you can change the name of the psionic stuff, I can change the name of the arcane! Poop? Let's call it refined fire essence!

This is a point I agree with. It's not so much the defense of psionics that moves me to post in this thread; it's the denigration of traditional magic. And I'd rebutt properly, but the references to "poop" shuts my mind down. Something about that word helps the juvenile part of my brain take the whole thing over. >_<

@Eagle: PP does not encourage psions to manifest at full. Any one of the posters in this thread can attest to that.

[Eagle]

That's the worst way possible to run a Psion. Novas like that are a massive drain on your resources. If you play it right, you manifest lower level powers for the same appx benefit as higher level ones, without burning augmentation(similar to Haste remaining awesome at level 14). Touchsight, for example, will be manifested without Augmentation 99% of the time.

Sure, and at level 20 if you're using touchsight, you're using the equivalent of a 3rd level spells when other people are using 9th level spells. Which is objectively WORSE.


It's different. Psionics doesn't have levels in the traditional sense. You'll still be using your 1st level powers on level 20 because of the various augmentation options. Yeah, you'll be using fully augmented powers a lot on 20, but so what? Is that a problem? And no, you won't be using 'em all the time.

The system specifically doesn't try to replicate Vancian casting, why should the drawbacks of Vancian casting carry over to that system? Psionics present a form of magic the wielders understand and can modify much more freely with the powers just settings parameters for such.


A Psion doesn't need to use lesser powers like a Vancian caster, but due to design, the 20 PP versions of the lower level powers are usable right alongside the level 9 powers. That said, a Psion doesn't have abilities as strong as the Vancian caster's. That's why they are better balanced. They're less of an "on-off" button (though high-level Vancian casters have so ridiculously high-effect powers that they can easily last all day thanks to Shapechanges and Greater Planar Bindings and that crap), and indeed can usually continue at the same power level all day, but that power level is lower than that of the Vancian casters. If all the broken spells were made into powers, sure, Psionics would be broken. So thank god they aren't.

The powers published have nothing to do with the system. Not having broken powers published does not make the psionics casting system better than arcane and divine. The two are exactly the same, except in psionics you are encouraged to burn up your lower level spell slots to get higher level effects, which DIRECTLY CAUSES you to run out of spell slots (power points) faster than you otherwise would. It's not a matter of 'novaing', it's a matter of playing the system the way it's meant to be played. If you're not using a 20 power point power at level 20, nobody cares, because you're not contributing effectively to the party.

[Blackfang108]

If you're not using a 20 power point power at level 20, nobody cares, because you're not contributing effectively to the party.

And if you're playing a Wizard, no one cares because you've forced them into early retirement 10 levels ago due to the sheer power of your brokenness.

[Eldariel]

The powers published have nothing to do with the system. Not having broken powers published does not make the psionics casting system better than arcane and divine. The two are exactly the same, except in psionics you are encouraged to burn up your lower level spell slots to get higher level effects, which DIRECTLY CAUSES you to run out of spell slots (power points) faster than you otherwise would. It's not a matter of 'novaing', it's a matter of playing the system the way it's meant to be played. If you're not using a 20 power point power at level 20, nobody cares, because you're not contributing effectively to the party.

No, you can use lower powered powers to contribute. Burning all your resources right off the bat is plain idiocy; it's like the Wizard showboating with his highest level slots vs. some measly Orcs and getting the party killed 'cause he doesn't have the gas when the Dragon shows up.

You conserve resources and only use what you need to. Period. Augmentation is specifically an option, something you have to do. Perhaps some creature has a worse save so you don't need full save DC augmentation. Perhaps your Astral Construct's special attacks don't need the full range of abilities to function. Hell, some powers don't even have augmentation.


Frankly, you're just wrong. It sounds like you haven't played with a level 20 Psion who knew what he was doing.

And yeah, it's an advantage to Psionics that broken powers haven't been published. The system is different so the kinds of abilities it better supports are different too.

No casting system is "inherently broken", but Vancian systems have so insane abilities especially in the PHB that they are broken by the contents. Hell, casting being broken without contents is impossible.

[Snails]

Note, that I'm not saying the Wizard is winning it alone while the rest of the party stand in the corner and smoke nervously. They're also doing stuff. The Wizard doesn't have to kill everything. But his dedicated targets won't take more than a handful of spells to bring down.

The topic on hand is whether a Psion (or Wizard) is overpowered, as a general rule.

We agree it is not a problem for a Wizard/Psion to have a number of encounters per day. I never suggested otherwise.

What I assert is that the standard arguments for the Wizard/Psion class power level being a notable "problem" when compared to other classes do not hold water under certain conditions, specifically when the players face uncertainty about how much combat they face. Note that the DM does not actually have subject the party to multiple combats every day, just keeping the players guessing is usually sufficient.

My experience is that when the level of violence goes up, there is strong incentive to buff the party members, because my in combat actions become more precious. When the number of encounters go up, the incentive is to become more efficient. Low level spells like Web and Glitterdust are extremely efficient. Both these routes leave lots of hard work for the rest of the party, and therefore can never be a "problem" of consequence.

Do you agree or disagree?

[dsmiles]

I like Psionics, as I have previously stated, but as far as d20 casting systems go, I thouroughly enjoy The Slayers d20. It uses a non-lethal damage based casting system that I believe accurately reflects the fatigue that casters should be feeling after channeling arcane forces through their inefficient meatsacks of bodies all day.

[Foryn Gilnith]

If you're not using a 20 power point power at level 20, nobody cares, because you're not contributing effectively to the party.

Again, I'm sure anybody in the thread could attest to the contrary.

[Lycanthromancer]

How did I manage to double-post like that?

[Lycanthromancer]

I like Psionics, as I have previously stated, but as far as d20 casting systems go, I thouroughly enjoy The Slayers d20. It uses a non-lethal damage based casting system that I believe accurately reflects the fatigue that casters should be feeling after channeling arcane forces through their inefficient meatsacks of bodies all day.Ooh! Time to play a warforged! Or a necropolitan!

Whee!


Again, I'm sure anybody in the thread could attest to the contrary.I had a level 16 shaper/constructor that only used full augmentation on his astral constructs, and hadn't used more than 1 fully-augmented power per combat in almost 10 levels.

He used his powers judiciously and spent every spare pp he had after setting up camp filling his portable hole with quintessence.

Mass battle against low-level foes? Energy wall.

A fight against a templated troll riding a fiendish phrenic hydra? Throw psionic minor creation'd poison-grenades at it.

Attack by an epic level shadow dracolich? Readied wall of ectoplasm to send it crashing to the ground in mid-flight, fully-augmented astral construct with a bunch of mini-constructs to Aid Another for grapple, then when it broke free by breathing on the small constructs (quickened breath weapon) and paralyzed me, the big construct grabbed me and ran off into the forest; then, the dragon came after me after being blinded by the party, and I had my construct hide me, then had it beat on the dragon while a bunch of identical me-sized constructs distracted it.

A fight in a long, narrow corridor with a bunch of evil dead? Have my party fight it on one side (between me and them), with my construct on the other side of the hallway, blasting with energy bolt and concussion blast (It was the only power I manifested all fight, and did more damage to the monsters than most of the rest of the group combined, each round.)

Getting chased through the woods by a flick-of-the-wrist tracker assassin, with a dragon above the treeline preventing flight? A quick telekinetic thrust into my portable hole filled with quintessence.

The other characters had far more raw power than I did, but I used mine tactically, and never ran more than halfway through my entire power point pool, despite the campaign often having 8 or more fights per day. I used my power points sparingly and thus kicked ass via conservative and strategic application of resources.

That LE blue goblin was a riot to play. Most fun I've ever had with a character.

[Ashiel]

Hahaha. That's awesome. Reminds me of when I played a summoning wizard/malconvoker. I almost never, ever, used more than maybe 4-5 spells per day by level 20, and she went epic to level 24 before our campaign stopped due to scheduling reasons.

Your game sounds like it was a ton of fun. :smallsmile:

[Snails]

The entire mechanic of power points encourages the manifester to always, always manifest the full number of power points per turn that he is capable of. Otherwise, he's not doing something level-appropriate in that turn. And when he's out of level-appropriate things to do (ie. fully augmented powers) he literally has nothing left. There's no rationing, no strategy behind how many power points to pour into a power unless you know EXACTLY how much hp, for example, the hobgoblin has left.

Strangely enough, I do not usually unload all my most powerful spells first when playing a Wizard. According to your logic I am doing something terribly wrong.

I can tell you from first hand experience that a single well-placed Wall or Web or Glitterdust or Confusion can "solve" many an encounter, so that the rest is mop up work. I can just pull out a wand to help.

I am pretty sure that a competent tactician could accomplish similar havoc on the enemy with Time Hop or Wall of Ectoplasm.

[Chrono22]

Isn't there a power/feat combination that lets you recover power points during combat?
I think that's what broke the last psion I encountered.

[dsmiles]

I'm fairly well-versed in the ExPH, and the 3.0 web-based material by WotC, and I don't think there is.

[Myou]

I thoroughly disagree; I find psionics to have much more consistent fluff than traditional magic. Magic is very inconsistent as where the power actually comes from, especially Arcane magic - whether its "The Weave" or "Mana" or some bastardized form of alchemy ("combine equal parts bat poop and butterfly wings, then chant for no well-explained reason." ) It gets worse when they try to compare arcane to divine magic: Compared to divine spells, arcane spells are more likely to produce dramatic results. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm) Wtf?

Divine is worse. "It comes from the gods, except it doesn't." (Ur-Priest, Clerics of ideals, Archivists etc.) "It comes from nature, except it doesn't." (Blighter, Urban Rangers etc.) "It requires wisdom and understanding, except it doesn't." (Shugenja.)

But the difference between Psionic Powers and Mantles is much clearer. Psionic powers come from mental discipline or force of personality (INT/WIS or CHA respectively.) Mantles are the mental distillation of a particular philosophy (WIS.) Expressing these mental abilities requires only the Astral Plane - not weaves or Mana or bat poop, except in Faerun where they have to shoehorn the Weave into everything anyway. How many planes does Magic draw from? Well, you've got the elemental ones, then the aligned ones, the transient ones like the Ethereal plane, then the Plane of Shadow which apparently lets you do everything from teleportation to summoning to contingencies to even throwing fireballs... I could go on.

Now WotC has failed at consistently applying that fluff properly (most notably in the case of the Divine Mind, where they simply decided "lets give a paladin psionic powers, let him choose his deity and call it a day") but the rest of the base classes have solid fluff.

It's all just opinion. :smalltongue:

You love psionic fluff, it makes me nauseous.


Are any powers named after Greyhawk celebrities? Do any powers specifically detail things about a world? They're no more fluffed than magic missile. Vancian casting has more fluff in the core PHB then the XPH. I have to disagree with you here. There is a difference between descriptive text and fluff.

-X

You seem to be deliberately misunderstanding what fluff is. But never mind, I'm really not interested in arguing about something so stupid.

[Lycanthromancer]

Isn't there a power/feat combination that lets you recover power points during combat?
I think that's what broke the last psion I encountered.Well, you can use fusion with another psionic character to steal his power points, use mind trap or power leech, but I'd only use the first because the other two are really wasted actions (and even then I'd only use fusion for very specific builds), except on psychic warriors or soulknives, which are so low on pp even when they're maxed out that a couple of rounds might very well drain them dry. How often do you encounter those two classes in a standard game?

And then there's affinity field + bestow power, but that's one of the (very, very, very few) truly broken things in psionics.

[Arakune]

Well, you can use fusion with another psionic character to steal his power points, use mind trap or power leech, but I'd only use the first because the other two are really wasted actions (and even then I'd only use fusion for very specific builds), except on psychic warriors or soulknives, which are so low on pp even when they're maxed out that a couple of rounds might very well drain them dry. How often do you encounter those two classes in a standard game?

And then there's affinity field + bestow power, but that's one of the (very, very, very few) truly broken things in psionics.

That comes with Compsi, but nobody talks about compsi, except for praticed manifester.

[Chrono22]

And then there's affinity field + bestow power, but that's one of the (very, very, very few) truly broken things in psionics.
I do remember it was a field of some kind.
But think he was also utilizing some kind of power point reservoir- an item that stored PP.
This was several years ago, so I don't remember any more specific details.

[Blackfang108]

That comes with Compsi, but nobody talks about compsi, except for praticed manifester.

And Ardent, and Soulbow.

Personally, I also like Githzerai Knock.

[Optimystik]

Not for me no book, no can do ;)

Most browsers have a "print" button, and most libraries let you print things if you don't have a printer. Although why you'd want to kill that many trees is beyond me. Clearly you have no problem reading digital text since you're in this thread.


It's all just opinion. :smalltongue:

Preference is opinion; consistency is not.

Psionic fluff is consistently applied. Maybe this is because WotC didn't write enough books to really screw it over; certainly, the Divine Mind could have been the start of a disturbing trend. Nevertheless, the fact is that magic (especially arcane magic) has extremely spotty and arbitrary fluff backing it up. Psionics has the same flavor in Eberron, Greyhawk and Faerun, but magic's flavor (both arcane and divine) changes wildly among the three settings.

This is not subjective; this is fact. Now saying consistency matters to me as a measure of fluff strength - THAT'S subjective. It might not matter as much to others. I'm just pointing out the differences as a discussion point.


This is a point I agree with. It's not so much the defense of psionics that moves me to post in this thread; it's the denigration of traditional magic. And I'd rebutt properly, but the references to "poop" shuts my mind down. Something about that word helps the juvenile part of my brain take the whole thing over. >_<

Dung? Feces? Rebut away.

[Ashiel]

Nevertheless, the fact is that magic (especially arcane magic) has extremely spotty and arbitrary fluff backing it up. Psionics has the same flavor in Eberron, Greyhawk and Faerun, but magic's flavor (both arcane and divine) changes wildly among the three settings.

Lemme throw in the Golarion campaign setting for Pathfinder. Their 3.5 published book for their campaign setting is another one you can toss the flavor into, as it gets some pages in the book as well. :smallsmile:

Edit: Now back to our regularly scheduled thread. :smallbiggrin:

[Androgeus]

With traditional spellcasting there's redundancy built in. The smart player starts off with the big guns, and goes to progressively smaller and smaller guns as he uses up his resources for the day.


I'm sorry but that is not, in my opinion, the way a smart player would play. Maybe it's my more cautious manner, but why waste a big gun when a smaller gun will get the job done in the same time. While it may save time, you may wish later on that you hadn't cast that Meteor Swarm to kill that lone kobold.
Basicly a smart player use the spells appropriate for the difficulty of the situation at hand.

[sonofzeal]

I do remember it was a field of some kind.
But think he was also utilizing some kind of power point reservoir- an item that stored PP.
This was several years ago, so I don't remember any more specific details.
Yeah, "Affinity Field" is one of the few fundamentally abusable Psi powers. It's cheap, and lends itself well to some nasty nasty combos. Of course, it's a 9th level power so an equivalent Wizard can be Gate-chaining or Wish-farming.

Oh, and items that store PP are pretty basic. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/cognizanceCrystals.htm)They're pretty much analogous to Pearls of Power, except you have to refill them manually.

[Emmerask]

Ooh! Time to play a warforged! Or a necropolitan!

Whee!


Because a dm who wants to balance casting with such measures lets you circumvent it that easily.. chances are pretty high that these races are either banned entirely or banned from becoming spellcasters...:smallwink:

As for the printer thing sure I would allow self printed Books Have fun printing them :smallsmile:

[Lamech]

Can't synchronicity be abused for extra actions too?

[Lycanthromancer]

Can't synchronicity be abused for extra actions too?Only with Twin Power or Linked Power, really, unless you pull out that NI power we've been discussing. Quickened will only work if you've already taken your standard for the round. Only slightly useful otherwise.

[horseboy]

Psionics is the only thing about 3.x that doesn't immediately piss me off . I don't get to use them because the DM doesn't want to have to learn still yet another subsystem and I refuse to run 3.x.

[Lamech]

Only with Twin Power or Linked Power, really, unless you pull out that NI power we've been discussing. Quickened will only work if you've already taken your standard for the round. Only slightly useful otherwise.

Thought so... anyway to nova a psion... I think this is fully legal.
Twinned synchronicity, move to regen focus, another twinned synch, drop all three readied actions, temporal acceleration, recover focus, another twinned Synch (time it so you get have the readied actions when you drop back to real time). Acceleration ends and drop the next two readied actions. Use metamorphic transfer to get a chokers quickness for another action (or two?).

If the synchronicity B.S. isn't legal you can still do the ready action with temperal acceleration. And the choker will get you a third.

Also note this is only really practical when your DM says... "BOSS FIGHT!" And I suppose if you can recover PP limitlessly.

[infinitypanda]

Thought so... anyway to nova a psion... I think this is fully legal.
Twinned synchronicity, move to regen focus, another twinned synch, drop all three readied actions, temporal acceleration, recover focus, another twinned Synch (time it so you get have the readied actions when you drop back to real time). Acceleration ends and drop the next two readied actions. Use metamorphic transfer to get a chokers quickness for another action (or two?).

If the synchronicity B.S. isn't legal you can still do the ready action with temperal acceleration. And the choker will get you a third.

Also note this is only really practical when your DM says... "BOSS FIGHT!" And I suppose if you can recover PP limitlessly.

At this point you're not playing D&D, you're playing M:tG. Seriously, it sounds like a Magic combo.

[Optimystik]

Because a dm who wants to balance casting with such measures lets you circumvent it that easily.. chances are pretty high that these races are either banned entirely or banned from becoming spellcasters...:smallwink:

Would he ban gnomes and dwarves from casting too? While not totally immune, they could definitely stave off deleterious effects of channeling magic (and psionics) much longer than humans and elves.


As for the printer thing sure I would allow self printed Books Have fun printing them :smallsmile:

"I refuse to look at digital sources, even if made freely available by Wizards themselves! Go forth and kill trees for my campaign!"

Well that's your prerogative - however, don't be surprised if the only reason your players lug a physical copy of EPH to your gaming table is to chuck it at your head. :smallsigh:

[Eagle]

I'm sorry but that is not, in my opinion, the way a smart player would play. Maybe it's my more cautious manner, but why waste a big gun when a smaller gun will get the job done in the same time. While it may save time, you may wish later on that you hadn't cast that Meteor Swarm to kill that lone kobold.
Basicly a smart player use the spells appropriate for the difficulty of the situation at hand.

BULL. ****. I'm assuming that at level 20, when you have a meteor swarm spell, any competent DM is not going to send you up against a single kobold enemy. If you're fighting (as you seem to imply) ridiculously weak kobolds at level 20, I would assume that there is an ass-load of them. In which case meteor swarm, ridiculously bad spell that it is, probably WOULD be the ideal way to deal with the situation.

The problem with psions is that unless you know the EXACT AMOUNT of force necessary to deal with a threat, your best bet is always to go for the strongest gun that you have. And at level 20, psions have a few more big guns than other full spellcasters and nothing else afterward. They ENCOURAGE the 15-minute day even moreso than traditional casters, because at least those people are guaranteed to have other spells left after they've used their best ones. The psion is seriously left with a crossbow.

If you're honestly throwing, for example, a 5th level unaugmented power at an unknown monster at level 20, you're realistically contributing nothing to combat. It doesn't matter how situational or clever you might be with that 5th level power, because when the wizard beside you is casting wail of the banshee, and the druid has wildshaped into a dire buffalo or some **** and is casting elemental swarm and the cleric is tossing out holy words, you're having zero effect in comparison. The fighter could have taken Leadership as a feat and gotten a psion as a companion and STILL be contributing more in the way of psionic firepower than you're offering with your purposefully weakened power.

And Eldariel– that bull about


And yeah, it's an advantage to Psionics that broken powers haven't been published. The system is different so the kinds of abilities it better supports are different too.

The fact that the system is unpopular is not a point in its favour. With the amount of material that HAS been published for it, there's probably an even higher ratio of broken or abusable powers than for spells out there. And don't give me that crap about 'the kinds of abilities it better supports are different too'. The systems are exactly the same, but with points instead of slots. A 9th level power is supposed to exactly equal a 9th level spell in power level.


Again, I'm sure anybody in the thread could attest to the contrary.

This isn't a psionics fanboy thread, it's (in theory) a query about the merits of the system. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean you can assume nobody else does.


The psion is austensibly a full spellcaster, which means that the only other classes it can be measured against for 'balance' are other full spellcasters. Obviously, obviously, any full spellcaster is going to kick the crap out of any other class. But if you're measuring it against wizards, clerics, druids, even SORCERERS, psions are seriously worse for gameplay because they are encouraged to burn through the equivalent amount of resources faster. They're worse for party cohesion, since they need to rest more often, and if you're using unaugmented powers when you don't strictly know you don't need to you're not even in the same league as other full spellcasters. Add on top of that the tiny number of tricks they know even compared to a sorcerer, and you've got a seriously terrible class shackled to an even worse system.

And don't go off claiming that you don't WANT the psion to be as powerful as the wizard, because I have yet to meet any DM that doesn't allow the damn WIZARD in the game. And if the wizard is in the game than the psion seriously needs to compared to it in terms of balance.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

At this point you're not playing D&D, you're playing M:tG. Seriously, it sounds like a Magic combo.

Incidentally, guess what card game is owned by Wizards of the Coast?

[Lycanthromancer]

BULL. ****. I'm assuming that at level 20, when you have a meteor swarm spell, any competent DM is not going to send you up against a single kobold enemy. If you're fighting (as you seem to imply) ridiculously weak kobolds at level 20, I would assume that there is an ass-load of them. In which case meteor swarm, ridiculously bad spell that it is, probably WOULD be the ideal way to deal with the situation.You didn't even bother to read my post, did you.

Work smarter, not harder. Even stock-standard kobolds can challenge an 8th level party if they do this. You have access to all sorts of powers by level 20; you can surely do better than them.


The problem with psions is that unless you know the EXACT AMOUNT of force necessary to deal with a threat, your best bet is always to go for the strongest gun that you have. And at level 20, psions have a few more big guns than other full spellcasters and nothing else afterward. They ENCOURAGE the 15-minute day even moreso than traditional casters, because at least those people are guaranteed to have other spells left after they've used their best ones. The psion is seriously left with a crossbow.So powers with durations count for nothing? Low level powers that are capable of doing awesome things suck no matter how you use them?

Using a 5 pp time hop to make a chain link vanish out of that 4000 lb chandelier, causing it to crash down on your foes' heads, dealing 60d6 damage to each and entangling them all is weak?

...No. This is the mistake people make with casters; they think a 15d6 fireball is much better than a haste or web, or even the occasional brilliantly-used prestidigitation. Be Macguyver. Take out the gunslingers with the roll of duct-tape and a cinnamon roll.


If you're honestly throwing, for example, a 5th level unaugmented power at an unknown monster at level 20, you're realistically contributing nothing to combat. It doesn't matter how situational or clever you might be with that 5th level power, because when the wizard beside you is casting wail of the banshee, and the druid has wildshaped into a dire buffalo or some **** and is casting elemental swarm and the cleric is tossing out holy words, you're having zero effect in comparison. The fighter could have taken Leadership as a feat and gotten a psion as a companion and STILL be contributing more in the way of psionic firepower than you're offering with your purposefully weakened power.A sonic energy wall to burrow through the stone wall holding back a lava flow is a perfectly viable way to defeat your enemies, as is using metamorphosis to turn yourself into a roper to Str-damage them to incapacitation, followed by a coup de grace. Even at level 20.


And Eldariel– that bull about
And yeah, it's an advantage to Psionics that broken powers haven't been published. The system is different so the kinds of abilities it better supports are different too.You really think that being able to be able to cast a half-million wishes in a single round at level 3 a good thing? Using only a single spell-slot of your own?

That's broken, but is it a good thing?

Even without using TO crap, tier 1s totally trivialize encounters if they try. Without pushing too hard, I can severely handicap CR 20+ monsters (even into epic) with a single casting of grease.

That's absurdly powerful, but is it a good thing?

I can wipe out the tarrasque with 4 level 4 mages and someone nearby who can finish it off with a well-timed wish.

That's all out of proportion to what a 4th level party can do, but is that a good thing?

I vote "no".


The fact that the system is unpopular is not a point in its favour. With the amount of material that HAS been published for it, there's probably an even higher ratio of broken or abusable powers than for spells out there. And don't give me that crap about 'the kinds of abilities it better supports are different too'. The systems are exactly the same, but with points instead of slots. A 9th level power is supposed to exactly equal a 9th level spell in power level.The systems are similar. You obviously haven't read the rules well enough if you say they're identical.


This isn't a psionics fanboy thread, it's (in theory) a query about the merits of the system. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean you can assume nobody else does.And you're ranting, baiting, presenting no evidence to back yourself up, and if it wasn't against the rules for me to call you out on it, trolling.

Maybe you should listen to peoples' opinions before running off at the mouth like that?


The psion is austensibly a full spellcaster, which means that the only other classes it can be measured against for 'balance' are other full spellcasters. Obviously, obviously, any full spellcaster is going to kick the crap out of any other class. But if you're measuring it against wizards, clerics, druids, even SORCERERS, psions are seriously worse for gameplay because they are encouraged to burn through the equivalent amount of resources faster. They're worse for party cohesion, since they need to rest more often, and if you're using unaugmented powers when you don't strictly know you don't need to you're not even in the same league as other full spellcasters. Add on top of that the tiny number of tricks they know even compared to a sorcerer, and you've got a seriously terrible class shackled to an even worse system.

And don't go off claiming that you don't WANT the psion to be as powerful as the wizard, because I have yet to meet any DM that doesn't allow the damn WIZARD in the game. And if the wizard is in the game than the psion seriously needs to compared to it in terms of balance.I don't want to be able to break the game with a core wizard, because the temptation is too strong for me to do so if playing one. Playing a psion gives me tactical challenges, above and beyond the decision of "which way shall I end THIS encounter with a single standard action?". I like how smooth and elegant power augmentation and power points in the psionics system are. I like the challenge of choosing how much punch to put put into each action. I like not having to rewrite half my character sheet every day. And I like the organic feeling of psionics, rather than the clumsy, artificial feeling of spell-slots.

Don't tell me what I do and don't like, thank you very much.

[Eagle]

You didn't even bother to read my post, did you.

Work smarter, not harder. Even stock-standard kobolds can challenge an 8th level party if they do this. You have access to all sorts of powers by level 20; you can surely do better than them.

I'm really not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that kobolds are a challenge at level 8 or level 20? Because I've got news for you, at level 20 they're doing nothing without enormous mecha. Hell, they're not doing much at level 8 without some serious DM fiat.


So powers with durations count for nothing? Low level powers that are capable of doing awesome things suck no matter how you use them?

Using a 5 pp time hop to make a chain link vanish out of that 4000 lb chandelier, causing it to crash down on your foes' heads, dealing 60d6 damage to each and entangling them all is weak?

1) Wow, it's a good thing that every encounter has a 4,000 lb chandelier hanging directly over the enemies' heads. Here I thought we were talking about the classes on their own merits, not a bone that the DM throws you.

2) Also, no. Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) targets one object of 300 lb or less. If you're seriously telling me that you consider a chandelier and the chandelier's chain seperate objects, you're simply wrong. That's like saying a fireball hits each limb of a creature as a seperate creature, so it deals four times the listed damage.

3) I'm too lazy to go look up how much damage a 4,000 lb object does falling on someone in Complete Warrior, but I'm pretty certain falling objects don't even knock people prone, let alone entangle them.


...No. This is the mistake people make with casters; they think a 15d6 fireball is much better than a haste or web, or even the occasional brilliantly-used prestidigitation. Be Macguyver. Take out the gunslingers with the roll of duct-tape and a cinnamon roll.

Don't be ridiculous, and don't put words in my mouth. Haste is obviously a better spell than fireball, because evocations are a waste of time. But they're both 3rd level spells, so in theory they dhould be roughly on par with each other. What you're talking about is choosing to waste an action casting haste when you could be casting a higher level spell of the same type, such as, for example, shapechange. One is OBVIOUSLY better than the other. So if you're in a level-appropriate encounter, you're expected to have access to level-appropriate abilities!


A sonic energy wall to burrow through the stone wall holding back a lava flow is a perfectly viable way to defeat your enemies, as is using metamorphosis to turn yourself into a roper to Str-damage them to incapacitation, followed by a coup de grace. Even at level 20.

My god! "Having a lava flow nearby" is not relevant! It has absolutely nothing to do with comparing spells and psionics! If your DM decides to let you have destructive scenery available all the time, whoopee for you, but we're looking at the systems on their own damn merits.


You really think that being able to be able to cast a half-million wishes in a single round at level 3 a good thing? Using only a single spell-slot of your own?

That's broken, but is it a good thing?

When the hell did I say that? Seriously, tell me, because you're honestly making stuff up. What I said was that psionics and spellcasting are VEHICLES for the spells and powers themselves. They both have broken and abusable spells printed for them, but the psionics VEHICLE is a much worse design than the spellcasting vehicle.


Even without using TO crap, tier 1s totally trivialize encounters if they try. Without pushing too hard, I can severely handicap CR 20+ monsters (even into epic) with a single casting of grease.

That's absurdly powerful, but is it a good thing?

It doesn't matter if it's a good thing or not. If that stuff (core) is in your game, the psion needs to be able to compete with it, because he's a direct alternative to the wizard.


I can wipe out the tarrasque with 4 level 4 mages and someone nearby who can finish it off with a well-timed wish.

That's all out of proportion to what a 4th level party can do, but is that a good thing?

I vote "no".

And when did I vote yes?


The systems are similar. You obviously haven't read the rules well enough if you say they're identical.

As I said above, they are both chassises (?) to deliver spells. Psionic spells are called powers, and you can combine lower-levelled powers to make higher-levelled powers. That's seriously the only difference between them, once it breaks spells up into half-spell units called power points. The spells printed are different, but that's really the difference.


And you're ranting, baiting, presenting no evidence to back yourself up, and if it wasn't against the rules for me to call you out on it, trolling.

Of course. How noble of you. Except you just did.


Maybe you should listen to peoples' opinions before running off at the mouth like that?

I'm sorry that having an opinion different than yours is 'running off at the mouth'.


I don't want to be able to break the game with a core wizard, because the temptation is too strong for me to do so if playing one. Playing a psion gives me tactical challenges, above and beyond the decision of "which way shall I end THIS encounter with a single standard action?". I like how smooth and elegant power augmentation and power points in the psionics system are. I like the challenge of choosing how much punch to put put into each action. I like not having to rewrite half my character sheet every day. And I like the organic feeling of psionics, rather than the clumsy, artificial feeling of spell-slots.

That's all personal choice. If you like the mechanics of psionics better, good for you. But it's still a worse system. And don't give that **** about how psions don't say "how shall I end THIS encounter with a standard action?". Psions do exactly that, but have less choices on how to do that than another full spellcaster. If you don't want to rewrite your character sheet, there are also spontaneous casters. Psionics just took the choice away from you if you happen to prefer prepared casters.


Don't tell me what I do and don't like, thank you very much.

I'm NOT. I'm comparing the two systems regardless of bias, on their own merits. And psionics is worse, in pretty much every way.

[Solean]

Psions are fun. Let them be played.

As far as the wizard vs psion discussion that is going on...if you want to look at numbers psions have less 'spell slots' then wizards and less 'spells' then sorcerers.

As far as playing the two classes I have done both and have done them both well. Either class can be the primary caster in charge of making the combat nearly impossible to lose. Yes psions can blow through power points at a truly amazing pace but thats just part of the challenge. When I played my psion I was going through 3-5 combats a day before I ran out of power points. Some days I would be empty after one combat but only for truly epic fights.

Honestly wizard > psion. I don't think anyone is really arguing against that but the gap isn't as big as some of you seem to think.

[Eagle]

Psions are fun. Let them be played.

As far as the wizard vs psion discussion that is going on...if you want to look at numbers psions have less 'spell slots' then wizards and less 'spells' then sorcerers.

As far as playing the two classes I have done both and have done them both well. Either class can be the primary caster in charge of making the combat nearly impossible to lose. Yes psions can blow through power points at a truly amazing pace but thats just part of the challenge. When I played my psion I was going through 3-5 combats a day before I ran out of power points. Some days I would be empty after one combat but only for truly epic fights.

Honestly wizard > psion. I don't think anyone is really arguing against that but the gap isn't as big as some of you seem to think.

Yes, the wizard is stronger than the psion, but that's not the point. The wizard is stronger than everybody. The point is that psionics as a system is worse than the alternative. It's worse for pacing, it encourages blowing through your resources fast, and it forces a psionicist to use the same powers over and over and over since they give out so few of them. From a game design standpoint it is BAD.

Of course you can have fun with it, you can have fun with anything. But that doesn't change the fact that psionics is not as good of a system as spellcasting. It fails in pretty much every aspect of good design theory, because it's cribbed from video games. A good magic system for video games is not neccessarily a good magic system for RPGs.

[horseboy]

I don't want to be able to break the game with a core wizard, because the temptation is too strong for me to do so if playing one. Playing a psion gives me tactical challenges, above and beyond the decision of "which way shall I end THIS encounter with a single standard action?".
Sleep is a full round action. :smallamused:

[Lycanthromancer]

Sleep is a full round action. :smallamused:Color spay. [sic]

[Optimystik]

1) Wow, it's a good thing that every encounter has a 4,000 lb chandelier hanging directly over the enemies' heads. Here I thought we were talking about the classes on their own merits, not a bone that the DM throws you.

Encounters may not generally have chandeliers, but neither do they all take place in featureless caverns, or in limbo. It sounds like you're equating "compare each system on its own merits" with "there's absolutely no way a lower level power could matter in a high-level fight." That seems like an odd conclusion to draw for anyone who plays PnP.


Yes, the wizard is stronger than the psion, but that's not the point. The wizard is stronger than everybody. The point is that psionics as a system is worse than the alternative. It's worse for pacing, it encourages blowing through your resources fast, and it forces a psionicist to use the same powers over and over and over since they give out so few of them. From a game design standpoint it is BAD.

Isn't "pacing" up to the player? Just because you CAN nova with a Psion, doesn't mean that you should in every encounter, or even any encounter. How does the ability of select players to play badly reflect on the system as a whole?

I'd argue the reverse - bad design is a system that encourages such rampant inefficiency and redundancy as the vancian system. Such a system has three spells to dominate a target's mind instead of one, a separate spell for each element to roll d6 direct damage, and a pile of unused spell slots at lower levels at the end of each encounter and each day. THAT is poor design.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Of course you can have fun with it, you can have fun with anything. But that doesn't change the fact that psionics is not as good of a system as spellcasting. It fails in pretty much every aspect of good design theory, because it's cribbed from video games. A good magic system for video games is not neccessarily a good magic system for RPGs.

As a matter of fact, D&D psionics has been a point-based system with a significant overlap with magic since it first showed up in the back of the 1e PHB. It isn't stealing anything from video games that wasn't already present in D&D, so while I'd agree that your assertion that good in RPGs =/= good in video games is correct, I believe you have it backwards.

[sonofzeal]

Yes, the wizard is stronger than the psion, but that's not the point. The wizard is stronger than everybody. The point is that psionics as a system is worse than the alternative. It's worse for pacing, it encourages blowing through your resources fast, and it forces a psionicist to use the same powers over and over and over since they give out so few of them. From a game design standpoint it is BAD.

Of course you can have fun with it, you can have fun with anything. But that doesn't change the fact that psionics is not as good of a system as spellcasting. It fails in pretty much every aspect of good design theory, because it's cribbed from video games. A good magic system for video games is not neccessarily a good magic system for RPGs.
You know Eagle, I do believe I disagree with you on every single point.

- It's better for pacing. You actually get to control your throttle with most powers, rather than Wizard spells that only have one setting. A lot of my favourite powers are the partial-augment sort, like Expansion, that can do some fun stuff if you augment it the right way but rarely needs full blast.

- It doesn't encourage blowing through resources any more than Arcane magic does. A Sor/Wiz has just as much pressure on him to toss out top-level effects. The Psion can do so a bit longer, but the pressure's the same.

- "The same powers over and over again"? Maybe for the Wilder, but the Psion ends his carreer with 36 different powers, many of which can do different things if augmented differently (Astral Construct, Psionic Charm, Sense Link, Energy Missile, Animal Affinity, etc). Several of those are the equivalent of multiple themed spells all bundled together. A decent Psion is in no way lacking in variety.



Vancian, however, does have some serious problems.

- Every prep'd spellcaster I've ever played with (at least, every one who's pulled his/her weight) has, from time to time, brought play to a screeching halt as he hashed out a new spells prep'd list. Having one or two default lists helps, but then the King will send you off to fight Zombies in the sewers, and you have to completely rework the list to function against Undead, or against high-SR enemies, or in a unique environment.

- Every Vancian caster has dozens of things to keep track of (spells known of each level, spells prepped of each level, spells cast of each level), most of which are in flux. The Psion needs to track his spells known, and a single integer for his pp. Tracking a lone two/three digit number is a heck of a lot easier than tracking an extensive tiered table, and that corresponds to snappier gameplay.

- More awkward feedback. As a Vancian caster tosses out spells, they don't exactly become weaker, but they become less flexible. The more they cast, the less options they have, even if they've still got top level spells left, and it becomes harder and harder to say exactly how much power they have left. Psions, on the other hand, can take a glance at their sheet and announce to the group that they're at half pp, and the group can respond to that intuitively. Any Psion can tell you quickly and concisely how drained he is, and everyone can take that into account, while the Wizard just becomes more hit-or-miss. Also, this makes it easier for the Psion to pull back on the throttle as he gets low, allowing for better pacing.

[Eagle]

Encounters may not generally have chandeliers, but neither do they all take place in featureless caverns, or in limbo. It sounds like you're equating "compare each system on its own merits" with "there's absolutely no way a lower level power could matter in a high-level fight." That seems like an odd conclusion to draw for anyone who plays PnP.

Okay. Fine. Fights do not neccessarily take place with no scenery. But if you're saying that the scenery is always changing, then you can't use it to compare classes! The ONLY way to compare the two of them is on their own merits, without external elements!

It's like people who say that the fighter could take a wizard if he had an enormous suit of magical power armour. That's great, but it doesn't say anything about how balanced the fighter is against the wizard!


Isn't "pacing" up to the player? Just because you CAN nova with a Psion, doesn't mean that you should in every encounter, or even any encounter. How does the ability of select players to play badly reflect on the system as a whole?

One of the problems–*I would even say the core problem–*of the psionics system is that it encourages you to spend as many power points as possible, all the time. Hell, most of the powers you even need to augment all the way just to get a reasonable save DC! And while it's nice that you can scale it, nobody in their right mind is going to only scale a save DC partway. If the enemy makes their save, you just wasted not only the power points, but the action as well!

The only sensible course of action is to pour as many power points as possible into each power you manifest. The exception, as I've said previously, is if you know, absolutely know, that you need less power points than the maximum possible to accomplish the task (ie. kill 'em). Otherwise you're just wasting time. Most of the time you don't know such a thing for sure, so the most sensible course of action from a purely logical standpoint is to use the most force possible against an unknown quantity. Psionics ENCOURAGES this thinking, which is what turns it into a boring game of 'I keep using my highest level power', until you're out.


I'd argue the reverse - bad design is a system that encourages such rampant inefficiency and redundancy as the vancian system. Such a system has three spells to dominate a target's mind instead of one, a separate spell for each element to roll d6 direct damage, and a pile of unused spell slots at lower levels at the end of each encounter and each day. THAT is poor design.

Note that I never said spellcasting is perfect, just that it's better. Having multiple spells for the same task is a nonissue, because you're only going to have one of them at a time. It's not bad design to have stats for three different kinds of sword even though a fighter's only going to hold one at a time.

And having all those unused spell slots is actually GOOD for the game, because it doesn't force the wizard to make camp when he's done with his most powerful stuff.

Because he doesn't HAVE the option of using all of his low-level spells to power his high-level spells, it actually provides him an incentive to use them instead. It becomes more a game of 'I know I'm going to have to use these low-level spells sometime, so let's use them efficiently'. Whereas in psionics you can choose to only manifest high-level powers, so why the hell wouldn't you? They're by definition a more powerful option. Anything less and you're purposefully weakening your character. The psionics system encourages you to burn your resources at an incredibly high rate, and force the party to continually rest to recover much more often than the traditional spellcaster. Traditional spellcasters may have tons of redundancy built in, but that's GOOD. At least they're always guaranteed to have SOMETHING to do, so if the DM is an ass and decides that the party can't make camp for whatever reason, he's not entirely screwed.

[Arakune]

I'm really not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that kobolds are a challenge at level 8 or level 20? Because I've got news for you, at level 20 they're doing nothing without enormous mecha. Hell, they're not doing much at level 8 without some serious DM fiat.


Kobolds played smartly? Yes, at least for 8th level characters. Ever heard of Tucker kobolds?



1) Wow, it's a good thing that every encounter has a 4,000 lb chandelier hanging directly over the enemies' heads. Here I thought we were talking about the classes on their own merits, not a bone that the DM throws you.

2) Also, no. Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) targets one object of 300 lb or less. If you're seriously telling me that you consider a chandelier and the chandelier's chain seperate objects, you're simply wrong. That's like saying a fireball hits each limb of a creature as a seperate creature, so it deals four times the listed damage.

3) I'm too lazy to go look up how much damage a 4,000 lb object does falling on someone in Complete Warrior, but I'm pretty certain falling objects don't even knock people prone, let alone entangle them.


It's a situational advantage that can be done without direct damage. It was just an example. If that ridiculous thing can be done, more reasonable and practical examples can be found.

No, he's not wrong. If the parts of the chandelier can be separated then they are effectively different objects. From time to time they need to bring that thing to the ground even if it's only to clean it.

Time hop 13pp (4800lbs) if you really need it.

And it's a chandelier, there is more than enough stuff there to entangle people.



Don't be ridiculous, and don't put words in my mouth. Haste is obviously a better spell than fireball, because evocations are a waste of time. But they're both 3rd level spells, so in theory they dhould be roughly on par with each other. What you're talking about is choosing to waste an action casting haste when you could be casting a higher level spell of the same type, such as, for example, shapechange. One is OBVIOUSLY better than the other. So if you're in a level-appropriate encounter, you're expected to have access to level-appropriate abilities!


The point is that haste is still good even with access to 9th level spells. If an encounter can be surpassed with a well placed 5th level spell, do you need to wast an 6th, 7th or an 9th level spell to end it? Some good encounter ender are hold monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdMonster.htm), dismissal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dismissal.htm), baleful polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm).




My god! "Having a lava flow nearby" is not relevant! It has absolutely nothing to do with comparing spells and psionics! If your DM decides to let you have destructive scenery available all the time, whoopee for you, but we're looking at the systems on their own damn merits.


The point, again, was to use powers in a way diferently than direct dumb damage. Ways to use tricks. Do you think a non caster could even do what you regards as "not relevant"?



When the hell did I say that? Seriously, tell me, because you're honestly making stuff up. What I said was that psionics and spellcasting are VEHICLES for the spells and powers themselves. They both have broken and abusable spells printed for them, but the psionics VEHICLE is a much worse design than the spellcasting vehicle.


Where exactly holds your claim? What exactly make the psionics rule worse? How does it imbalance the game, or how that is different froma game play view? Start to provide that information and maybe people will listen to you.



It doesn't matter if it's a good thing or not. If that stuff (core) is in your game, the psion needs to be able to compete with it, because he's a direct alternative to the wizard.


Actually, he's the direct alternate to the sorcerer. The eurudite is the direct alternate for wizard.



As I said above, they are both chassises (?) to deliver spells. Psionic spells are called powers, and you can combine lower-levelled powers to make higher-levelled powers. That's seriously the only difference between them, once it breaks spells up into half-spell units called power points. The spells printed are different, but that's really the difference.


Some powers can be augmented in more ways than +dX damage +1 DC. Like Psionic Dominate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dominatePsionic.htm)




I'm sorry that having an opinion different than yours is 'running off at the mouth'.


So far all you said is "psionics is crap", without addressing the "why". That's look like 'running off at the mouth' for a lot of people.



That's all personal choice. If you like the mechanics of psionics better, good for you. But it's still a worse system. And don't give that **** about how psions don't say "how shall I end THIS encounter with a standard action?". Psions do exactly that, but have less choices on how to do that than another full spellcaster. If you don't want to rewrite your character sheet, there are also spontaneous casters. Psionics just took the choice away from you if you happen to prefer prepared casters.


What makes then worse? Better yet, make is "worst"? You are just tossing that word around without providing definitions or answers.



I'm NOT. I'm comparing the two systems regardless of bias, on their own merits. And psionics is worse, in pretty much every way.

Again, you just say the system is worse. Why? How? Saying that it's objectively worse without showing the worse hardly comes as unbiased.

So far in your entire post you hammered the worseness of the psionics and didn't provided any motives.

----------------------------------------------------------------

These (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/decerebrate.htm) are (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyConversion.htm) examples (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/momentofPresciencePsionic.htm) of (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/ironBodyPsionic.htm) high (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/shadowBody.htm) level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/shadowBody.htm) powers that doesn't need augmentation. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindBlankPsionic.htm)

These (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyWall.htm) are (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm) low-mid level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm) power that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/ubiquitousVision.htm) doesn't (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePain.htm) need (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/concealingAmorpha.htm) augmentation. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/greasePsionic.htm)

This one stays usefull for you entire carrer, and you don't need maximum augmentation for it. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htm)

[Samb]

So...... For psionics to even be on par with the "slot" system, psionics have to resort to using abusive combos? Thanks Eagle, that's a very liberating debate. I can just counter my DM when he wants to shut down my recharging combo by citing your posts.

DM: ummmm you can't just recharge all your PP between combat like that, I just can't allow it.
Me: well you see the points system encourages me burn my resources much faster than my arcane counterparts. So I feel that, for the sake of the party, I should just spend the next 10 minutes getting all my PP so we don't have to rest.
DM: ummm but then you will nova every encounter, and put everyone to shame.
Me: that is just an entertaining side effect.

On a serious note, the only time I've had an issue with PP as a psion was during a 8 encounter day. And even then I was contributing in combat. Lycan's point is that well placed and well used powers can have more of an effect than just it's level or PP usage.

He listed fireball vs. Haste to try to illustrate said point which you seemed too dense to pick up on. Or maybe you were just too prideful to admit you
might have been wrong.

[Eagle]

You know Eagle, I do believe I disagree with you on every single point.

You know, sonofzeal, that's great.


- It's better for pacing. You actually get to control your throttle with most powers, rather than Wizard spells that only have one setting. A lot of my favourite powers are the partial-augment sort, like Expansion, that can do some fun stuff if you augment it the right way but rarely needs full blast.

Super, but for every partial-augment situational power like expansion, you have a dozen like those energy powers where more pp = more damage, or where more pp = higher save DC. And with those powers, there is zero incentive not to always toss out the most powerful power, because you're getting more firepower out in a shorter timeframe.


- It doesn't encourage blowing through resources any more than Arcane magic does. A Sor/Wiz has just as much pressure on him to toss out top-level effects. The Psion can do so a bit longer, but the pressure's the same.

Yes. It does. When the psion's done with 'top-level effects' as you call them, he has nothing less. The wizard has tons more resources left by default. Redundancy is GOOD in this scenario.


- "The same powers over and over again"? Maybe for the Wilder, but the Psion ends his carreer with 36 different powers, many of which can do different things if augmented differently (Astral Construct, Psionic Charm, Sense Link, Energy Missile, Animal Affinity, etc). Several of those are the equivalent of multiple themed spells all bundled together. A decent Psion is in no way lacking in variety.

Yes. But surely you'd agree that a smart psion with a limited arsenal would select, for example, only one charming power? One blasting power? Any more would be redundant, and the psion doesn't have room for redundant powers.

So for any given situation or enemy, you would agree that the psion should have exactly one power which is best suited to deal with the problem. It might be the power that targets Will, it might be the power that deals Con damage, but he probably has one that is unequivocably the best choice for the situation. So the ONLY option that tactically makes sense for him is to manifest that power, over and over, with the most bang he can manage, until he's done. And that's BORING.


Vancian, however, does have some serious problems.

Yes it does.


- Every prep'd spellcaster I've ever played with (at least, every one who's pulled his/her weight) has, from time to time, brought play to a screeching halt as he hashed out a new spells prep'd list. Having one or two default lists helps, but then the King will send you off to fight Zombies in the sewers, and you have to completely rework the list to function against Undead, or against high-SR enemies, or in a unique environment.

While losing game time is very bad for group coherence, that has nothing to do with the system. If you can't manage the paperwork, don't play the system. That's exactly why a lot of players prefer to start off with spotaneous spellcasters until they get the hang of things. Like I said before, spellcasting has spontaneous casters too, psionics just doesn't give you the option to choose for yourself.


- Every Vancian caster has dozens of things to keep track of (spells known of each level, spells prepped of each level, spells cast of each level), most of which are in flux. The Psion needs to track his spells known, and a single integer for his pp. Tracking a lone two/three digit number is a heck of a lot easier than tracking an extensive tiered table, and that corresponds to snappier gameplay.

I think you're overestimating things. Wizards (for example) have spell slots of each level, but in play they actually just have a big list of spells that they can cast at any time. When they cast a spell they cross it off the list. This is hardly 'dozens of things to keep track of'. Psionics has a ton more **** to track when you count the myriad different ways of augmenting different powers. You want to talk about bringing gameplay to a halt? How about an indecisive psion trying to figure out exactly what his options are at any time?


- More awkward feedback. As a Vancian caster tosses out spells, they don't exactly become weaker, but they become less flexible. The more they cast, the less options they have, even if they've still got top level spells left, and it becomes harder and harder to say exactly how much power they have left. Psions, on the other hand, can take a glance at their sheet and announce to the group that they're at half pp, and the group can respond to that intuitively. Any Psion can tell you quickly and concisely how drained he is, and everyone can take that into account, while the Wizard just becomes more hit-or-miss. Also, this makes it easier for the Psion to pull back on the throttle as he gets low, allowing for better pacing.

On the other hand, a wizard always knows exactly what spells he has left, so the party can easily plan around knowing exactly what resources are left to them. This is a nonissue. Parties can plan around either situation.

[Arakune]

Yes. But surely you'd agree that a smart psion sorcerer with a limited arsenal would select, for example, only one charming power spell? One blasting power spell? Any more would be redundant, and the psion sorcerer doesn't have room for redundant powers spells.

So for any given situation or enemy, you would agree that the psion sorcerer should have exactly one power spell which is best suited to deal with the problem. It might be the power spell that targets Will, it might be the power spell that deals Con damage, but he probably has one that is unequivocably the best choice for the situation. So the ONLY option that tactically makes sense for him is to manifest cast that power spell, over and over, with the most bang he can manage, until he's done. And that's BORING.


Congratulations, you just described a sorcerer. These issues aren't psion specific, and for your "always need to augment to full" already have a precedent with heithen spell metamagic (made with sorcerer in mind). That's not so much as "need to nova" but more like "have limited arsenal".

[Eagle]

Kobolds played smartly? Yes, at least for 8th level characters. Ever heard of Tucker kobolds?

Sure. Turns out, though, that having enormous situational advantages makes it a harder encounter, increasing the CR because of crap like traps. This has nothing to do with your point such as it is.


It's a situational advantage that can be done without direct damage. It was just an example. If that ridiculous thing can be done, more reasonable and practical examples can be found.

But we can't consider situational advantages in something like this, because it's a theoretical excercise. You have to admit that most encounters don't have enormous chandeliers in them. You have to compare the systems without stuff like that.


No, he's not wrong. If the parts of the chandelier can be separated then they are effectively different objects. From time to time they need to bring that thing to the ground even if it's only to clean it.

By your logic you would count a table as five different objects, because you can disassemble it into a board and four legs. That's, I'm sorry, just wrong.


Time hop 13pp (4800lbs) if you really need it.

Which would vanish the whole chandelier and accomplish exactly squat. What's your point?


And it's a chandelier, there is more than enough stuff there to entangle people.

Yes, but that's not in the rules. We're playing a game with rules here.


The point is that haste is still good even with access to 9th level spells. If an encounter can be surpassed with a well placed 5th level spell, do you need to wast an 6th, 7th or an 9th level spell to end it? Some good encounter ender are hold monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdMonster.htm), dismissal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dismissal.htm), baleful polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm).

Yes. They might be good powers. But higher level powers unaugmented are BETTER than lower-level powers unaugmented. Not only because of better effects, but also because of a better save DC unaugmented. To keep the hold monster power relevant at a higher level, for example, to even have a hope of catching an equal CR opponent, you're going to need to spend additional power points to boost its DC. Which is the exact equivalent of using a higher level power.


The point, again, was to use powers in a way diferently than direct dumb damage. Ways to use tricks. Do you think a non caster could even do what you regards as "not relevant"?

I never said that direct damage was the best scenario. Please don't put words in my mouth. Using spells intelligently is all well and good, but it's widely acknowledged that the most powerful spells in the game are SoD, or SoL spells. And the save-or-die powers live or die by their DC. What possible incentive would you have not to give the power the best chance it has of succeeding?


Where exactly holds your claim? What exactly make the psionics rule worse? How does it imbalance the game, or how that is different froma game play view? Start to provide that information and maybe people will listen to you.

If you'd read my posts, you'd see that I have described in exhaustive detail, exactly why psionics is worse than spellcasting. To sum it up:

1. Worse resource management system.
1A. Encourages the '15-minute workday' even moreso than a spellcaster.
2. Repetitive in play. (encourages one-trick ponies)
3. Tactically boring.


Actually, he's the direct alternate to the sorcerer. The eurudite is the direct alternate for wizard.

Believe me when I say you don't want to bring the pile of **** that is the erudite into this, because psionics is just going to end up looking worse. The erudite is crap, and everyone knows it. Most people try to pretend it doesn't exist.


Some powers can be augmented in more ways than +dX damage +1 DC. Like Psionic Dominate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dominatePsionic.htm)

... Yeah? So?


So far all you said is "psionics is crap", without addressing the "why". That's look like 'running off at the mouth' for a lot of people.

Have you actually read my posts? Like, at all?


What makes then worse? Better yet, make is "worst"? You are just tossing that word around without providing definitions or answers.

You seem stuck on this point.


Again, you just say the system is worse. Why? How? Saying that it's objectively worse without showing the worse hardly comes as unbiased.

Um. Yeah.


So far in your entire post you hammered the worseness of the psionics and didn't provided any motives.

Motive? Er. I think I addressed this above. Although I don't think psionics have motives.

[Eagle]

Congratulations, you just described a sorcerer. These issues aren't psion specific, and for your "always need to augment to full" already have a precedent with heithen spell metamagic (made with sorcerer in mind). That's not so much as "need to nova" but more like "have limited arsenal".

And that's one of the reasons why the sorcerer is so much more boring in play than the wizard, cleric, druid, or other prepared spellcaster. Thank you for making my point for me.

As I said, psionics forces you to play spontaneous caster, even though prepared spellcasters are much more versatile. That psionics takes away your ability to choose which model to play is not a plus.

Specifically, when people talk about 'Vancian' magic, they are specifically referring to prepared spellcasting. Sorcerers were introduced as an alternative, sort of a halfway point between prepared spell list and mana point pool.

[Samb]

Eagle:

The main thing wrong with you arguement is tht you are...... Wrong. Psionics doesn't force you to cast spontaneously as there is the erudite which is a prepared full manifesting class. What you raise is more the weakness of spontaneous casting vs prepared which is not the topic at hand.

On the other hand you do have some interesting points even if thy are a bit...... Inaccurate.
Comparing a sorceror to a psion, a psion will use up his PP pool faster than a sorceror. But this has more to do with sorceror having more "points" than a psion rather than any inherit need to maximize every manifestation as you claim. A psion 20 without any INT bonus would have 343 PP while a sorcoror 20 would have 486 converted "points" and that dies not even include zero level spells.

If you listed you points with some concrete numbers like what I just did, rather than float on hypothetical situations and do the research you might not be seeing so much flack.

[PhoenixRivers]

Eagle:

The main thing wrong with you arguement is tht you are...... Wrong. Psionics doesn't force you to cast spontaneously as there is the erudite which is a prepared full manifesting class. What you raise is more the weakness of spontaneous casting vs prepared which is not the topic at hand.

On the other hand you do have some interesting points even if thy are a bit...... Inaccurate.
Comparing a sorceror to a psion, a psion will use up his PP pool faster than a sorceror. But this has more to do with sorceror having more "points" than a psion rather than any inherit need to maximize every manifestation as you claim. A psion 20 without any INT bonus would have 343 PP while a sorcoror 20 would have 486 converted "points" and that dies not even include zero level spells.

If you listed you points with some concrete numbers like unjust did, rather than float on hypothetical situations and do the research you might not be seeing so much flack.

The other point is valid too.

If a sorceror 20 casts a fireball, he gets 10d6 fire damage for 5 converted pp.
If a psion 20 uses the equivalent ability, he gets 5d6 fire damage for 5 pp. To get the 10d6 damage, he must spend 10pp.

This means that while the psion is more flexible, it comes at a higher cost for equivalent effect.

[Lycanthromancer]

I'm really not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that kobolds are a challenge at level 8 or level 20? Because I've got news for you, at level 20 they're doing nothing without enormous mecha. Hell, they're not doing much at level 8 without some serious DM fiat.What I'm saying is that power alone isn't everything. A lever in the right spot can do more work than a stick of dynamite in the wrong spot.

I can make a group of a few dozen CR 1/4 to CR 1 kobolds with nothing available but easily-procured mundane materials, 0 and 1st level sorcerer spells, and solid tactics a suitable (potentially even overpowering) encounter for a level 8 party.

If a group of kobolds are capable of doing that, shouldn't a psion with access to 20 levels of powers be able to hold his own in a group of competent players?


1) Wow, it's a good thing that every encounter has a 4,000 lb chandelier hanging directly over the enemies' heads. Here I thought we were talking about the classes on their own merits, not a bone that the DM throws you.There's not a chandelier available in every encounter. However, there might be a pit with spikes on the other side of the room for a bull-rushing astral construct or telekinetic thrust. There might be a long, hallway to fill with an energy wall. There could be an unsprung trap to knock enemies into using control air. There could be a tree to anchor a wall of ectoplasm to that you can use to stop a flying dragon in its tracks, and knock out of the air. There might be a huge open battlefield to fill with Widened ectoplasmic shamblers.

The point is that there's always something. And if there's not something, you can improvise.

The whole point of psionics, in my opinion - the way I play with it - is that it's a set of extremely versatile tools. The power isn't in the blunt force trauma you inflict on enemies like an atomic bomb; it's in the subtle, useful tricks you can pull out like a Swiss Army Knife. And psions have access to plenty of them. Even psychic warriors do.


2) Also, no. Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) targets one object of 300 lb or less. If you're seriously telling me that you consider a chandelier and the chandelier's chain seperate objects, you're simply wrong. That's like saying a fireball hits each limb of a creature as a seperate creature, so it deals four times the listed damage.If it can be targeted using a sunder, it should be targetable with a time hop.

Don't tell me you wouldn't allow the party barbarian to target and sunder a link in a chain? Or a rope?

Use your tools with finesse, rather than pounding at your problems with a jackhammer, and you start seeing the worth of psionics. You might even last for more than 2 rounds without running out of juice.


3) I'm too lazy to go look up how much damage a 4,000 lb object does falling on someone in Complete Warrior, but I'm pretty certain falling objects don't even knock people prone, let alone entangle them.Do you not think that this falling on your head:http://www.hermann-uwe.de/files/images/chandelier.preview.jpgwould be reason enough to be entangled, at least? Having that falling on you would be more than a little inconvenient.

Now imagine that it's 20 ft wide, made of solid iron and chunks of glass, is a half-story tall (worthy of being 2 friggin' tons) and you might start to see where I'm coming from.

And don't get too caught up in it; the chandelier was just an example.


Don't be ridiculous, and don't put words in my mouth. Haste is obviously a better spell than fireball, because evocations are a waste of time. But they're both 3rd level spells, so in theory they dhould be roughly on par with each other. What you're talking about is choosing to waste an action casting haste when you could be casting a higher level spell of the same type, such as, for example, shapechange. One is OBVIOUSLY better than the other. So if you're in a level-appropriate encounter, you're expected to have access to level-appropriate abilities!A sledgehammer is obviously a more powerful tool than those hammers you use to check reflexes, too, but they're absolutely useless for the nurse checking vitals at your local clinic.

If you're paired up with a pouncing barbarian with Power Attack and Shock Trooper, a haste spell will deal more damage to the tarrasque over the course of the battle than an Empowered, Maximized meteor swarm. It might very well do more in the first round. And that's a 3rd level spell vs a 9th.

Use your resources wisely; they stretch farther than you might realize.


My god! "Having a lava flow nearby" is not relevant! It has absolutely nothing to do with comparing spells and psionics! If your DM decides to let you have destructive scenery available all the time, whoopee for you, but we're looking at the systems on their own damn merits.It has to do with the kind of strategic thinking that both systems encourage. I can win a fight by spamming meteor swarms and Twinned, Repeating, Maximized, Empowered enervations, or I can look at my surroundings and the situation at hand, use something that costs maybe 1/10 of those resources, and win the battle with far less in-game effort.

It's not canon, nor is it the only situation psionics is useful in. It's an example, and is used to illustrate the kind of thinking that's useful for someone using the system.

You're complaining about psions novaing until they have nothing left, right? Pay attention here, son; you might just learn something.


When the hell did I say that? Seriously, tell me, because you're honestly making stuff up. What I said was that psionics and spellcasting are VEHICLES for the spells and powers themselves. They both have broken and abusable spells printed for them, but the psionics VEHICLE is a much worse design than the spellcasting vehicle.You said that psionics is weaker than core casting, and that that fact is 100% bad, all the time.

I was illustrating examples of how strong core casting can be. Is being weaker than game-destroyingly powerful 100% bad? No. Destroying a game is not a good thing, for anyone. And wizards are capable of doing so in dozens of ways which psionics can't do.

And THAT was my point.

Psionics has its strong points. It has a small handful of broken stuff it can do. More, of course, with Complete Psionic (one of the reasons why I despise the book). However, most of psionics is considerably less overpowering than most of core casting.

And that isn't a bad thing.


It doesn't matter if it's a good thing or not. If that stuff (core) is in your game, the psion needs to be able to compete with it, because he's a direct alternative to the wizard.Really?

Who are you to tell me that using a (proverbial, mind you) key to unlock a door, rather than throwing grenades at it, is "doing it wrong"?

If I find that psionics works better than magic because I find it more difficult to one-shot creatures 10 levels above mine, solo, why is that "doing it wrong"?

Because I CAN take out creatures 10+ levels above mine by myself using a wizard. I can take out epic level creatures before reaching level 10 using a wizard. Being weaker than that says absolutely nothing about psions being crap, and everything about wizards being insanely overpowered.


And when did I vote yes?When you said that being worse than a wizard was unquestionably bad.

Those are the things that a wizard can do.

Psions can't.

That doesn't make psions bad.

If anything, it makes them better. Especially from a DM's point of view. It also seems much better from a game design standpoint, since I'm sure all of those loopholes were both unintended and unwanted.

Psionics? Doesn't have nearly as many of those loopholes. IE, it's better-designed.


As I said above, they are both chassises (?) to deliver spells. Psionic spells are called powers, and you can combine lower-levelled powers to make higher-levelled powers. That's seriously the only difference between them, once it breaks spells up into half-spell units called power points. The spells printed are different, but that's really the difference.The spells make the class.

The spells, and the system for spell-design, is considerably better for psionics, as noted above. Psionics has more restrictions that actually prevent abuse, while making it easier to actually play a psion. The things that people normally complain about psionics, the lack of verbal, somatic, and material components? The lack of arcane spell failure? The ability to wear armor?

None of that significantly affects balance for a wizard. A wizard capable of casting Stilled Silenced spells for free won't increase their power appreciably.

Unbridled power is NOT a good design decision; the ability to constantly, consistently, even accidentally overshadow other classes, all the time, in every area they can actually fill, and every area they can't, is bad design.


I'm sorry that having an opinion different than yours is 'running off at the mouth'.Saying "It's crap!" with nothing to back it up is running off at the mouth. The cursing and tone of writing you use is clearly anything but reasonable, and is designed to be inflammatory.

Yes, it's running off at the mouth, especially since you're offering little to nothing of worth to the conversation, other than "It's crap!"


That's all personal choice. If you like the mechanics of psionics better, good for you. But it's still a worse system. And don't give that **** about how psions don't say "how shall I end THIS encounter with a standard action?". Psions do exactly that, but have less choices on how to do that than another full spellcaster. If you don't want to rewrite your character sheet, there are also spontaneous casters. Psionics just took the choice away from you if you happen to prefer prepared casters.Psions have less overt power, more flexibility. That's not at all a "worse" system. Just different. And in this case, given the sheer disparity in power between wizards and, basically, nearly every other class in the game, wizards are worse. Much worse. Wizards are the top of tier 1, and that is not a good thing at all.


I'm NOT. I'm comparing the two systems regardless of bias, on their own merits. And psionics is worse, in pretty much every way.You're not comparing anything. You're ranting about how it's worse, but not actually doing anything constructive. You're not quantifying, or qualifying. You're just throwing out the word "worse" without any logic or reasoning or justifications behind your opinions.

Give some decent arguments; otherwise, don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

[Eagle]

Eagle:

The main thing wrong with you arguement is tht you are...... Wrong. Psionics doesn't force you to cast spontaneously as there is the erudite which is a prepared full manifesting class.

The erudite also has the Convert Spell to Power alternate class feature, which allows it to get any spell in the game as a power. Which is another whole story entirely. But right now I'm talking about conventional psionics, which most DMs use, the psionics from the XPH.


What you raise is more the weakness of spontaneous casting vs prepared which is not the topic at hand.

While it's true that sorcerers share some of the same problems as psions (mostly those which deal with the lack of versatility, a well-accepted flaw in the sorcerer) the psionics system is even worse for longevity by allowing movement between spell levels. You can take 6 2nd level powers and literally combine them to make a 9th level power.

But spell levels scale exponentially in power, another well-accepted point. It doesn't matter how many fireballs you have, you're not going to be able to combine them into a wish. But psionics allows you to do just this. By removing the requirement to spend some of your resources on lower-level spells, they throw the whole resource management inherent in full spellcasters out of whack. They give the player the option of literally using nothing EXCEPT 9th level spells at 20th level, so unless the player purposefully makes his character weaker than he should be at any given point in time, he's going to burn through his powers much faster than a full spellcaster.


On the other hand you do have some interesting points even if thy are a bit...... Inaccurate.
Comparing a sorceror to a psion, a psion will use up his PP pool faster than a sorceror. But this has more to do with sorceror having more "points" than a psion rather than any inherit need to maximize every manifestation as you claim. A psion 20 without any INT bonus would have 343 PP while a sorcoror 20 would have 486 converted "points" and that dies not even include zero level spells.

Of course. A sorcerer definitely has more juice than the psion OR the wizard. The whole point of the class is that it has more spells per day than anybody else. That has nothing to do, however, with how psionics compares with spellcasting.

[Samb]

The other point is valid too.

If a sorceror 20 casts a fireball, he gets 10d6 fire damage for 5 converted pp.
If a psion 20 uses the equivalent ability, he gets 5d6 fire damage for 5 pp. To get the 10d6 damage, he must spend 10pp.

This means that while the psion is more flexible, it comes at a higher cost for equivalent effect.

Which in my book is a fair tradeoff, hence to answer the OP, psionics is not overpowered.

Honestly, Eagle is right and we have always suspected: psionics is the red haired stepchild of DnD. Psionicists have less points, need more per manifesting, and have to worry about focus. Arcane casters don't have any of that. Now if a psion had 486 PP like a sorceror then there would more of a debate but as a whole I would have to say PP system, while easier to grasp and more intuitive than the slot system is still inferior like Eagle says.

All the more reason to justify using recharge.

[PhoenixRivers]

Of course. A sorcerer definitely has more juice than the psion OR the wizard. The whole point of the class is that it has more spells per day than anybody else. That has nothing to do, however, with how psionics compares with spellcasting.

Actually, the Sorceror point issue is just a bit inaccurate. To convert to PP, it would be more accurate to say that a sorceror had 102 pp, plus discrete pools: 6 capacitors with a 15 pp limit, 6 with a 13, 6 with an 11, 6 with a 9, 6 with a 7, 6 with a 5, 6 with a 3, and 6 with a 1pp limit.

Even that doesn't fully show how flexible a psion is (After all a psion with an 11 pp capacitor could manifest a 4th level power, a 2nd level power, and a 1st level power. A sorceror can only do a 6th level.)

One asks why a psion would not burn only 9th level powers?

Some powers, such as Anticipatory Strike, Synchronicity, and the like, don't scale. Also, Touchsight doesn't need to extend to 250 feet to be effective.

Sometimes you spend less because the best ability doesn't require a 20pp expenditure.


Which in my book is a fair tradeoff, hence to answer the OP, psionics is not overpowered.

Honestly, Eagle is right and we have always suspected: psionics is the red haired stepchild of DnD. Psionicists have less points, need more per manifesting, and have to worry about focus. Arcane casters don't have any of that. Now if a psion had 486 PP like a sorceror then there would more of a debate but as a whole I would have to say PP system, while easier to grasp and more intuitive than the slot system is still inferior like Eagle says.

All the more reason to justify using recharge.
Disagree. There's no reason. The psion sacrifices overall powers total for much greater flexibility in their use. It's a balanced trade. Turning the PP daily pool into a PP per encounter pool throws off that balance.