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View Full Version : Shuriken, what are they good for?



Darcand
2009-11-16, 11:54 AM
I was looking at making a shuriken chucking urban ranger until I took a good look at them. 1.5 average damage I can live with, but with a range of 10ft and the constant cost of enchanting new ones, is there any reason to bother?

Otodetu
2009-11-16, 11:56 AM
3.5 dnd hate throwing weapons, don't bother with them.

Lapak
2009-11-16, 11:57 AM
Poison them, perhaps?

Choco
2009-11-16, 12:02 PM
Houserule a glove that enchants things you throw, has a range increment, etc. Limit each glove to one type of thrown weapon. Basically like a bow/crossbow but for thrown weapons. That will at least put thrown weapons on par with archery.

Don't forget to then consider thrown weapons as ammo, in regards to not requiring Quick Draw just to attack more than once per round. If an archer can fire 4+ arrows in 1 round (an action that involves drawing the arrow from the quiver each time), then there is no reason a thrower can't draw shuriken/knives from a container just as fast without the Quick Draw feat.

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-16, 12:02 PM
Don't they function like ammo for enchantments?

Tackyhillbillu
2009-11-16, 12:04 PM
You can have an effective throwing weapon character. Hafling Rogue + Whisperknife + Master Thrower actually can work pretty well.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-16, 12:05 PM
Sadly, in D&D, the best throwing weapons are either massive rocks or greatswords. Shuriken and Daggers are a distant third.

root9125
2009-11-16, 12:09 PM
Shuriken, what are they good for?
Absolutely NOTHING, say it again!

Salanmander
2009-11-16, 12:11 PM
Don't they function like ammo for enchantments?

Yes, and that's the primary reason they're useful. You can put some random esoteric enhancement on some of them (like * bane for example), and have them around in case that comes in handy, without sinking tons of gold into it. Also, oils of flame arrow are *nice* for shuriken.

I would be wary of houseruling said glove, because it would bring thrown weapons up to par with archery, but then there are a bunch of feats and things that improve your abilities with thrown weapons (bloodstorm blade, master thrower, power throw...) that don't have equivalents in archery. It's still not necessarily a bad idea, but you'll want to carefully consider various interactions first. *Not* considering those interactions is what got us things like 1d2 infinite damage weapons.

Jergmo
2009-11-16, 12:15 PM
Well, if your DM houserules it (and I personally do), to have them be like they were in 3.0, then they're good. In 3.0, from what I understand, you could throw three per round. So, with an energy enchantment, they're awesome, even if you use a bunch of them. (Though it's also more guaranteed damage than a bow). 3 damage for sure, 4 damage on average per round. A longbow's average damage is supposed to be the same, but there's the possibility of rolling a 1 for damage or something.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-11-16, 12:18 PM
there great for ninja characters or characters that have a way of provoking SA, or Sudden strike for a full round.. then try to throw as many as possible.

I've seen ninjas do some pritty cool things with them.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-16, 12:19 PM
there great for ninja characters or characters that have a way of provoking SA, or Sudden strike for a full round.. then try to throw as many as possible.

I've seen ninjas do some pritty cool things with them.Except in what way is that preferable to normal archery?

ghashxx
2009-11-16, 12:23 PM
Shurikens, or light throwing knives whichever you want to fluff them as, really aren't useful except that you can have 50 enchanted specialty throwing items. Since they're treated as ammunition you don't need quickdraw to grab one. These are things which you either use in conjunction with sneak attack, or you have as a back up weapon for whenever you run across something extra nasty and you need to hit with a +1 enervating weapon, or something like that.

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-16, 12:23 PM
Except in what way is that preferable to normal archery?

The first thing that come is my mind is hidden weapons. If you want to assassinate someone, a bunch of shuriken is better than a bow if you want to hide your weapon.

Not so much, I admit :smalltongue:

IIRC there is a "style" for ninjas in dragon magazine: you forgo 1-3 sudden strike dice to add 1-3 attacks with shuriken at different targets, high attack bonus.

But very situational.

jiriku
2009-11-16, 12:25 PM
Palm Throw + Stormguard Warrior = make a series of touch attacks with shuriken to gain a large bonus to hit and damage on your next turn?

RagnaroksChosen
2009-11-16, 12:27 PM
Except in what way is that preferable to normal archery?

a few things actualy...
It costs less.. as i am enchanting them as ammo much like arrows but i don't also have to have a bow.

I can do it 1 handed or two handed...

and most importantly
I can get more shurkiens off in a single round then archery.

ericgrau
2009-11-16, 12:37 PM
+4 to sleight of hand checks to conceal. Allows enchantment as ammo which is a cost advantage over thrown weapons, yet can get extra attacks from TWF, rapid shot and flurry which is an advantage over bows which only get rapid shot. If you don't mind the low AB. And don't forget spells like flame arrow to get a good boost without spending gold. Usually you're better off enchanting a bow and maybe some of its arrows, but for situations that fit what I just mentioned that's when you use shurikens.

Kulture
2009-11-16, 12:38 PM
Don't forget that they're also used in the 3rd(?) level assassin spell "Fire shuriken" as a focus/material componant, but has to be slathered in a flamable substance which I can't recall the name of.
These shurkens do something like 3D6+(or was that 5D6?) damage each, and a spellthief 5/Assassin 10 can make six from one casting, they unfortunately don't ignite flamable things, though that may be a good thing.

Psyborg
2009-11-16, 12:38 PM
My monk/master thrower carries a buttload of shurikens as backup in case the sais that he normally throws get lost/damaged/AMF=no Returning or something.

I'm using Greater Flurry + Rapid Shot + Palm Throw to throw twelve monk weapons a round at level 14, without TWF, haste, or Speed.

Longcat
2009-11-16, 12:39 PM
Shuriken? Well:
-Usable with Flurry of Blows
-You get to add Str and Precision damage to each one
-With Aptitude Enchant, you get to add your dex bonus with Shadow Blade

Other than that, you're kinda out of luck.

AB
2009-11-16, 12:43 PM
They`re good because you can throw three of them at once. So, three times precision damage, three times poison damage etc.

As basic weapons, of course, they suck.

Asbestos
2009-11-16, 12:59 PM
They`re good because you can throw three of them at once. So, three times precision damage, three times poison damage etc.

As basic weapons, of course, they suck.

Isn't that 3.0 and not 3.5?

Person_Man
2009-11-16, 01:03 PM
Shuriken are a special Monk weapon. They were created so a Monk with Quickdraw can always make a Flurry of Blows, every round, starting at level 1, without ever wasting an attack.

Having said that, yes, they suck. Pick something else, like a harpoon, razor net, glot, boomerang, annulat, orc shotput, etc.

jiriku
2009-11-16, 01:05 PM
Historically, shuriken weren't intended to inflict lethal wounds, but were intended to distract an opponent or inflict nuisance injuries on exposed flesh like hands, faces, or feet.

How about this. Take rapid shot and palm throw and enchant a number of shurikens with the wounding special property. At BAB +6 or greater, you can throw six of these with a full attack. Every one that hits deals 1 point of Con damage.

Alternately, take a level of rogue and the staggering strike feat. Do what you can to improve your initiative. Using the aforementioned rapid shot and palm throw, toss a series of these at opponents in the first round of combat while they're flat-footed. They'll be staggered for a round. You can do this again during a battle by using an effect like invisibility to catch you foes flat-footed again.

The Stormguard warrior trick I mentioned above could also be interpreted as using the shuriken to distract your opponent to give yourself an advantage.

These uses are interesting and have some flair to them, and all are at least somewhat faithful to the historical use of the shuriken as a distracting or hindering weapon, rather than a weapon with deadly intent.

Milskidasith
2009-11-16, 01:07 PM
Shuriken are good for being shields. +5 Deflecting Shuriken, go!

Otodetu
2009-11-16, 01:07 PM
Shuriken are a special Monk weapon. They were created so a Monk with Quickdraw can always make a Flurry of Blows, every round, starting at level 1, without ever wasting an attack.

Having said that, yes, they suck. Pick something else, like a harpoon, razor net, glot, boomerang, annulat, orc shotput, etc.

Umm, why do you need quick draw?
It counts as ammo, so its a free action to draw them without the feat.


On another note, im trying out a houserule that states that you can free-draw any throwing weapon as part of throwing the weapon, even without quick-draw.

Still no-one that bothers with thrown weapons.

ken-do-nim
2009-11-16, 01:10 PM
Shuriken are a special Monk weapon. They were created so a Monk with Quickdraw can always make a Flurry of Blows, every round, starting at level 1, without ever wasting an attack.

Having said that, yes, they suck. Pick something else, like a harpoon, razor net, glot, boomerang, annulat, orc shotput, etc.

Can you remind me what quickdraw is needed for in that scenario? If shurikens are treated as ammo and drawing ammo is a free action, doesn't a monk get to flurry with them without taking quickdraw?

kentma57
2009-11-16, 01:16 PM
There was an experiment running in our group which hindged on what was considered an 'attack' was the action of throwing 84 shuriken a round one attack or is each an shuriken a seperate attack as we normaly run them in our group(it makes shuriken more practical).
Skirmish damage should not say "on all attacks"

84 attacks x 5d6 = 420d6 skirmish damage! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Sorry had to correct my math...

AtwasAwamps
2009-11-16, 01:21 PM
There was an experiment running in our group which hindged on what was considered an 'attack' was the action of throwing 84 shuriken a round one attack or is each an shuriken a seperate attack as we normaly run them in our group(it makes shuriken more practical).
Skirmish damage should not say "on all attacks"

84 attacks x 7d6 = 588d6 skirmish damage! :smallbiggrin:


I think that's how its supposed to work, actually.

Mongoose87
2009-11-16, 01:22 PM
Shuriken are good for being shields. +5 Deflecting Shuriken, go!

Do you have to throw it to get the AC bonus?

dsmiles
2009-11-16, 01:24 PM
Wheeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!Shuriken!!!!!

Cheap enchanting, little weight, minimal cost, high hideability, absolutely awesome for distracting spellcasters...hrrm...Keen, (Something) Burst, great little engines of destruction...

Salanmander
2009-11-16, 01:28 PM
There was an experiment running in our group which hindged on what was considered an 'attack' was the action of throwing 84 shuriken a round one attack or is each an shuriken a seperate attack as we normaly run them in our group(it makes shuriken more practical).
Skirmish damage should not say "on all attacks"

84 attacks x 5d6 = 420d6 skirmish damage! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Sorry had to correct my math...


Skirmish is precision based damage (if I recall correctly), and thus gets added a maximum of once per time you make an attack roll. So if you use palm throw to throw 6 shuriken after moving 10 feet as a swift or free action, you would get your skirmish damage three times, not six times.

kentma57
2009-11-16, 01:30 PM
Wheeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!Shuriken!!!!!

Cheap enchanting, little weight, minimal cost, high hideability, absolutely awesome for distracting spellcasters...hrrm...Keen, (Something) Burst, great little engines of destruction...

I remember a shuriken build where I found a magic enhancement the if you hit lowers enemy SR by 1, I also made them bleeding(after they do damage they continue to do 1 damage a round until heal check or heal magic is succesful).
good times...


Skirmish is precision based damage (if I recall correctly), and thus gets added a maximum of once per time you make an attack roll. So if you use palm throw to throw 6 shuriken after moving 10 feet as a swift or free action, you would get your skirmish damage three times, not six times.

Actualy skirmish is based on attacking while on the move and being to fast to hit/block so this build actualy matches the fluff, wierd...

Though you interpritation still leaves one with:
14 * 6d6 = 84d6 skirmish damage (or more)
Still rather nasty...

Telonius
2009-11-16, 01:40 PM
Can you remind me what quickdraw is needed for in that scenario? If shurikens are treated as ammo and drawing ammo is a free action, doesn't a monk get to flurry with them without taking quickdraw?

Drawing arrows is a free action. Drawing other forms of ammunition is not.

SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#ammunition):


Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them (see Masterwork Weapons), and what happens to them after they are thrown.

It doesn't explicitly say that Shuriken take an action to reload. Most DMs I've had interpret the general rule being "you need an action to reload ammunition," with bows being the specifically designated exception. Since a shuriken isn't an arrow, you can't draw it as a free action; therefore you need Quick Draw to draw it as a free action.

EDIT: For a totally ridiculous take on it, a Monk could just have an unloaded bow out, but draw and fire the shuriken with his other hand as a free action. (Hey, I am "using" the bow. It just says "ammunition," not "arrows," so I get to draw it as a free action!)

Tyndmyr
2009-11-16, 01:48 PM
Crossbows and slings are weapons though. Shuriken do not have to be loaded into anything to be used. The assumption that loading times apply to them seems terribly odd given that nowhere does it say they are loaded.

If they have draw time, that's one thing, but that isn't stated either.

Feh. If you can find a spell with a shuriken as a spell component, we can solve this problem properly.

Telonius
2009-11-16, 01:50 PM
I think the trouble centers on this part of the sentence: "When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action;"

Why specify "when using a bow?" It suggests that if a character isn't using a bow, they can't draw ammunition as a free action.

EDIT: Just found this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#draworSheatheaWeapon):

Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.

So, typo in the Weapons Overview section, I'd say.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-16, 01:52 PM
Amusingly enough, it doesn't specify arrows with regards to the free action.

Hold bow in offhand. Draw shuriken as free action.

Kulture
2009-11-16, 02:04 PM
As I've said, the spell fire shuriken uses a shuriken as a componant, though it must be slathered in a flamable substance.

infinitypanda
2009-11-16, 02:05 PM
Shuriken are good for dealing infinite damage in a single round, for all you crusaders out there.

ken-do-nim
2009-11-16, 02:16 PM
I think the trouble centers on this part of the sentence: "When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action;"

Why specify "when using a bow?" It suggests that if a character isn't using a bow, they can't draw ammunition as a free action.

EDIT: Just found this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#draworSheatheaWeapon):


So, typo in the Weapons Overview section, I'd say.

Thanks, I knew I wasn't crazy. It's only common sense that the act of drawing a sling bullet or a crossbow bolt isn't the slow part, it is loading it into the weapon. And that's why there is Rapid Reload.

Flickerdart
2009-11-16, 02:22 PM
The first thing that come is my mind is hidden weapons.
A bow is just a walking stick with a string tied to it and a bunch of smaller, feathered walking sticks. Shuriken are not walking sticks.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-16, 02:23 PM
As I've said, the spell fire shuriken uses a shuriken as a componant, though it must be slathered in a flamable substance.

I see no problem with that. Thus, we have infinite free drawing from a spell component pouch. Problem solved.

chiasaur11
2009-11-16, 02:24 PM
A bow is just a walking stick with a string tied to it and a bunch of smaller, feathered walking sticks. Shuriken are not walking sticks.

They're ceremonial metal walking sticks.

For really short people.

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-16, 02:26 PM
A bow is just a walking stick with a string tied to it and a bunch of smaller, feathered walking sticks. Shuriken are not walking sticks.

wrong. An unstrung bow is in no way like a walking stick, other than being also made of wood.


Now shuriken, if they have a center hole, can be sewn onto a cloth backing and passed off as a type of scale mail.

Myou
2009-11-16, 02:31 PM
Thier sole purpose in life is to make it easy to build a 1d2 crusader. :3

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-16, 02:34 PM
wrong. An unstrung bow is in no way like a walking stick, other than being also made of wood.


Now shuriken, if they have a center hole, can be sewn onto a cloth backing and passed off as a type of scale mail.DMotR (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=922). Go there.

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-16, 02:39 PM
DMotR (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=922). Go there.


Ah. Gotcha. ^_^

ghashxx
2009-11-16, 04:06 PM
Shuriken are good for being shields. +5 Deflecting Shuriken, go!

So find a single +5 defending shuriken that will cost...a piddling amount of gold, and get an extra +5 to AC!! Absolutely brilliant...if the DM will let you buy 1 of such a unique piece of equipment.

NEO|Phyte
2009-11-16, 04:19 PM
Shuriken are good for dealing infinite damage in a single round, for all you crusaders out there.
Actually, no they aren't, as the aura requires melee attacks, which shuriken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#shuriken) explicitly can't be used for.

minchazo
2009-11-16, 05:22 PM
If you're going to throw anything, you have to consider the Master Thrower PrC.

That being said, you get benefits using shuriken if you're throwing a crap-ton per round. If you're making 18+ touch attacks (thanks to MT's Weak Spot and Palm Throw), it's more cost-effective to use shuriken than melee weapons, assuming you can get an item to cast GMW.

An item to cast GMW multiple times a day would cost 108K (3rd lvl spell x 20 caster lvl x 1800). Getting 18 +5 daggers would cost 900K. At higher levels you can just eat the MW shuriken cost without too much problem.

An archer quite simply can't make that many attacks when compared to a thrower. Throwing shuriken means that you need either Far Shot or Ranged Weapon Mastery.

Shademan
2009-11-16, 05:32 PM
people always underestimate shurikens and blowguns 1d1 and 1d1 damage isnt scaring anyone. however, when you trough some clever use of feats and suchmuch can get off several shots a round and coat 'em in naaasty poisons... the players never see it coming.
til its to late

El Dorado
2009-11-16, 06:11 PM
The stunning master feat lets you use Stunning Fist with monk weapons. You can maybe stun a dude at short range?

infinitypanda
2009-11-16, 06:16 PM
Actually, no they aren't, as the aura requires melee attacks, which shuriken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#shuriken) explicitly can't be used for.

No, my build is slain!

Edit: pixie crusader with daggers?

FMArthur
2009-11-16, 07:02 PM
It costs 160 GP for a single +1 Warning shuriken. Merely holding it grants the user a +5 insight bonus to Initiative. Shuriken are the best weapons. :smallamused:

Shnezz
2009-11-16, 07:03 PM
In 4.0 they are technically "Light Blades", thusly working with many rogue abilities at range.:smallbiggrin:

ghashxx
2009-11-16, 08:50 PM
It costs 160 GP for a single +1 Warning shuriken. Merely holding it grants the user a +5 insight bonus to Initiative. Shuriken are the best weapons. :smallamused:

For doing something like having a single shuriken, what kind of price would anyone put on that item? The above example with a shuriken of +2 enhancement bonus. A full set of 50 would net a nice 8,301gp. So as a DM, would you allow a character to buy just one of such an item for only 166.02gp? This would be real nice if I was wanting a +5 defending shuriken, with only one costing 1,446.02gp instead of a set of 50 being 72,301gp.

Draz74
2009-11-16, 09:01 PM
Enchanting shuriken with all kinds of situationally powerful magic effects (that are priced as +1) is an undervalued ability. Practically every non-caster would be wise to buy a few rounds of ammunition with the Illusion Bane enhancement, for example.

Mostly, I have to admit, Arrows do this just as well as shuriken do. But occasionally there are exceptions. Like Monk/Warblade builds (... right ...) that are proficient in shuriken but not bows. :smallwink:

Or, if you don't mind cheesy abuse of the rules ... almost every character should ideally buy a +1 Shuriken of Warning. Costs less than 500 gp, and gives a +5 insight bonus to Initiative checks. (If you do the same thing with an arrow, the DM can argue that you're not actually "wielding" it ... although the description of Warning does actually just say "held," not "wielded.")

EDIT: Dangit, just saw that someone else posted the Shuriken of Warning yesterday ...

Yucca
2009-11-16, 09:11 PM
... almost every character should ideally buy a +1 Shuriken of Warning. Costs less than 500 gp, and gives a +5 insight bonus to Initiative checks.

The following day, the BBEG, the town guard, and the thieves guild all buy them for their own henchmen and suddenly everyone is even again.

FMArthur
2009-11-16, 09:16 PM
The following day, the BBEG, the town guard, and the thieves guild all buy them for their own henchmen and suddenly everyone is even again.

Unless any of their usual modes of combat require the use of both hands. And monsters incapable of wielding weapons are left behind as well. This is a buff for the one-handed weapon wielders! :smallwink:

Rasman
2009-11-16, 09:19 PM
...must...find...+5 defending Shuriken...my initive is actually really good regardless, but who DOESN'T need more Initive...are there any other's that would give buffs to AC or some other rediculous stat?

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-16, 09:25 PM
...must...find...+5 defending Shuriken...my initive is actually really good regardless, but who DOESN'T need more Initive...are there any other's that would give buffs to AC or some other rediculous stat?
You mean warning right? the defending propierty gives AC, the warning propierty increases initiative.

Rasman
2009-11-16, 09:28 PM
You mean warning right? the defending propierty gives AC, the warning propierty increases initiative.

heh...sorry...my thoughts tend to seep out endlessly and kind of mengle...so I sometimes change topic without really...changing topic

here's a question though, if I have bracers that hold my shuriken, and give me the quick draw feat, and I had a Shuriken of Warning and Defending in each bracer, does that count as me wielding them?

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-16, 09:31 PM
heh...sorry...my thoughts tend to seep out endlessly and kind of mengle...so I sometimes change topic without really...changing topic

here's a question though, if I have bracers that hold my shuriken, and give me the quick draw feat, and I had a Shuriken of Warning and Defending in each bracer, does that count as me wielding them?

Possibly but I think thats for the DM to decide

Rasman
2009-11-16, 09:37 PM
Possibly but I think thats for the DM to decide

guess I get to deal with a fickle demon of a what if machine...watch them fall down a mountian or have him make a Remmoraz eat them...

Shuriken make for excellent post it notes and paper weights

want to make an NPC paranoid? make out a wanter poster of him and stick it to a post in town with a Shuriken, he'll be looking over his shoulder for Ninja's all day...ALL DAY...

Mongoose87
2009-11-16, 09:56 PM
Sounds like someone's going to get the Inevitable that punishes Munchkins down on his head.

Yucca
2009-11-16, 10:02 PM
Unless any of their usual modes of combat require the use of both hands. And monsters incapable of wielding weapons are left behind as well. This is a buff for the one-handed weapon wielders! :smallwink:

Or they carry it around when until the fight starts, then drop it in the first round and draw their two-hander. Or they attach it to the hilt of their two-hander (warning requires it be held, not necessarily wielded). Animals can hold things.

The point is that this is just another Player vs. DM arms race. Whenever a player says "Look at this cool way I broke the rules to get a constant +5 to init for less than 200 gold" the DM can say "you and pretty much everyone else discovered that loophole at the same time"

Personally I would rule 0 the ability to make 1 unit batches of shurikens out of my game.

ghashxx
2009-11-16, 10:12 PM
here's a question though, if I have bracers that hold my shuriken, and give me the quick draw feat, and I had a Shuriken of Warning and Defending in each bracer, does that count as me wielding them?

You have to be actually wielding them, like as in being capable of, at that moment in time, be able to strike with them. Having them in your bracers would be like saying having an arrow in your quiver is wielding it. In both cases it's only a free action to grab it, but in neither case are you wielding them. And for the rather cheap price you might as well have a single +5 defending warning shuriken. The cost only goes up a measly 500gp and you have a single shuriken to hold, which you can basically do all the time, instead of walking around all the time with a shuriken in each hand which makes quaffing ail very difficult.

ericgrau
2009-11-16, 10:13 PM
Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.

So you don't need quickdraw.

Also, besides what I posted on page 1, I noticed that a shuriken may be used while prone. Huzzah, +4 AC in a ranged fight. Yeah, they're tricky to use effectively but with this and other techniques they do have a small nitch.

Xenogears
2009-11-16, 10:19 PM
"Shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purpose of drawing them...",

That quote is clearly just WoTC trying to make sure all artists know where to place the Shurikens.

ghashxx
2009-11-16, 10:19 PM
"Shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purpose of drawing them...", so you don't need quickdraw. IIRC there are examples scattered across the old WotC website pages.

Whether or not they can be drawn as a free action has been getting bandied around. In one section it says you can draw them as a free action because they're ammo. Another section only mentions that while using a bow can you draw as free action. I think this is just something where the rules disagree a little because of the wording. It seems pretty obvious to me that they're drawn as a free action, and that since you're not loading them into something then that's all there is to it. Refer to the post by Telonius on the previous page for an argument against drawing them as a free action.


That quote is clearly just WoTC trying to make sure all artists know where to place the Shurikens.

lols

ericgrau
2009-11-16, 10:21 PM
Edited with a better rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#draworSheatheaWeapon) that's 100% clear. Yay for d20srd search function.

Rasman
2009-11-16, 10:42 PM
You have to be actually wielding them, like as in being capable of, at that moment in time, be able to strike with them. Having them in your bracers would be like saying having an arrow in your quiver is wielding it. In both cases it's only a free action to grab it, but in neither case are you wielding them. And for the rather cheap price you might as well have a single +5 defending warning shuriken. The cost only goes up a measly 500gp and you have a single shuriken to hold, which you can basically do all the time, instead of walking around all the time with a shuriken in each hand which makes quaffing ail very difficult.

hmm...I'll probably do that actually...being a monk means I have crap for AC unless I go head over heels on gear, but this brings my AC up to a respectable 26, I don't really care much about the initive, but having more is ALWAYS nice

ghashxx
2009-11-16, 11:10 PM
Something I find kind of humorous. The OP only posted once, the beginning post and that was it.

Salanmander
2009-11-16, 11:17 PM
This has been pointed out before, but appears to have been forgotten. Defending is a melee-weapon-only special property, and therefore can't be applied to shuriken.

ghashxx
2009-11-16, 11:22 PM
This has been pointed out before, but appears to have been forgotten. Defending is a melee-weapon-only special property, and therefore can't be applied to shuriken.

Ooooooh...this....this is a very well made and should have been obvious point. In the description of shuriken it's very specific that they can't be used as melee weapons. So going by RAW I think we all feel just a little bit stupid now.

Woot Woot!! I'm no longer a "pixie in the playground"!!

FMArthur
2009-11-17, 01:15 AM
Or they carry it around when until the fight starts, then drop it in the first round and draw their two-hander. Or they attach it to the hilt of their two-hander (warning requires it be held, not necessarily wielded). Animals can hold things.

The point is that this is just another Player vs. DM arms race. Whenever a player says "Look at this cool way I broke the rules to get a constant +5 to init for less than 200 gold" the DM can say "you and pretty much everyone else discovered that loophole at the same time"

Personally I would rule 0 the ability to make 1 unit batches of shurikens out of my game.

If I were a crafter, I would certainly find it more efficient to sell such items individually, even if I had to craft them in groups of 50. Also... I could be wrong here, but I don't think you keep the initiative bonus when you put it away. Your initiative score decreases by 5 when you put it away, making for a one-turn initiative boost.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-17, 01:28 AM
If I were a crafter, I would certainly find it more efficient to sell such items individually, even if I had to craft them in groups of 50. Also... I could be wrong here, but I don't think you keep the initiative bonus when you put it away. Your initiative score decreases by 5 when you put it away, making for a one-turn initiative boost.

I could see a crafter charging slightly more for single ones than in large lots, based on the bulk discount principle, but yeah....just because I make them in lots of 50 doesn't mean I'll turn down sales of less. Sales are sales.

The fact that defending doesn't work reduces the amount of cheese available in this fashion anyhow, but if someone wants a wide variety of shuriken or other ammo with varying enchantments, I see that as perfectly reasonable.

Curmudgeon
2009-11-17, 05:01 AM
here's a question though, if I have bracers that hold my shuriken, and give me the quick draw feat, and I had a Shuriken of Warning and Defending in each bracer, does that count as me wielding them?
No, it doesn't. You can't take free actions when it's not your turn. If you're surprised (caught flat-footed) you don't get to act, so you can't avail yourself of items tucked in your bracers. Plus you roll initiative before you act, so by the time you could get your hand on that warning shuriken it's too late to have any effect.

Yuki Akuma
2009-11-17, 05:05 AM
However, make the bracers give you the ability to draw a weapon as an immediate action and take TWF, and you're home free.

ghashxx
2009-11-17, 08:48 AM
The fact that defending doesn't work reduces the amount of cheese available in this fashion anyhow, but if someone wants a wide variety of shuriken or other ammo with varying enchantments, I see that as perfectly reasonable.

This just cam up in another thread, and made us all feel very silly. Defending only works on melee weapons, and shurikens are stated very specifically that they can't be used in melee...so just scrap the defending part which made it so much amazing.

kentma57
2009-11-17, 08:56 AM
This just cam up in another thread, and made us all feel very silly. Defending only works on melee weapons, and shurikens are stated very specifically that they can't be used in melee...so just scrap the defending part which made it so much amazing.

No the fact that you can through 80 some a round makes them amazing...

The Gilded Duke
2009-11-17, 09:11 AM
Arrows can be used as melee weapons yet still count as ammunition. Just have your monk hold a defending arrow in their offhand while they throw shuriken with their main hand and kick people with their unarmed strike.

The Gilded Duke
2009-11-17, 10:16 AM
Orc Monk with Mighty Throw wouldn't be that bad with Shuriken. Still get to add his strength to damage, and much easier to make a full attack with shuriken then with unarmed strike. Combine that with things like having a bane weapon ready for anything.

Depending on the build you could have them go for lots of attacks with Flurry + Two Weapon. Eventually build up to Bloodstorm Blade or Exotic Weapon Master.

Ormagoden
2009-11-17, 12:14 PM
What about that charging throw feat?

The one that lets you toss a weapon as part of a charge. When combined with a high strength thrower doesn't that go a bit in the way of helping to optimize them?

RagnaroksChosen
2009-11-17, 12:16 PM
What about that charging throw feat?

The one that lets you toss a weapon as part of a charge. When combined with a high strength thrower doesn't that go a bit in the way of helping to optimize them?

not realy just adds some dmg to a charger build ... with thrown weapons its eaither precision dmg or as many attacks as you can(within reason) or some combination of the two.

BillyJimBoBob
2009-11-17, 02:46 PM
My monk/master thrower carries a buttload of shurikensThat sounds painful...

Krow
2009-11-17, 04:56 PM
Its part of a Ninja's deception really. Throw measly damaging crappy weapons at your enemy... Then when they least expect it, BAM! Harpoon!

Anyways, they can be useful with Dragonfire Inspiration or any damage dice addition attack / buff. Then again, a thrown ROCK would be just as useful in such a situation. :smallbiggrin:

ghashxx
2009-11-17, 06:03 PM
Then again, a thrown ROCK would be just as useful in such a situation. :smallbiggrin:

Oooooh, a +5 defending warning rock!!

RagnaroksChosen
2009-11-17, 06:22 PM
the only advantage a shrunken has is that it counts as ammo. which meens no need for quick draw and its cheeper to get 50 of them enchanted.

though there are some decent builds with them
dont forget you get your str on them... as well as precision dmg.

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-17, 06:28 PM
This topic made me want to make a Monk/thief/caster build, but I has not the time :smallsigh:

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-18, 01:51 AM
Hey everybody. I hate to ask this, but where exactly are the rules for enchanting ammo that're different from enchanting a weapon normally? If it's on the srd could I also get a book and page number?

Kosjsjach
2009-11-18, 03:44 AM
Hey everybody. I hate to ask this, but where exactly are the rules for enchanting ammo that're different from enchanting a weapon normally? If it's on the srd could I also get a book and page number?

I think the closest you're going to get to a quotable source is Table 7-13 on page 223 of the DMG, where it lists masterwork "common ranged weapons" ready for enhancement, and the ammunitions are all grouped in 50.

Disconcertingly, shurikens are specifically mentioned in Table 7-12 (uncommon weapons) as 301gp, which would be the cost of a masterwork set of 5 shurikens (5 basic shuriken cost 1gp). Whether or not this is simply an oversight error is left unclarified, even in the errata. :smalleek:

ghashxx
2009-11-18, 07:17 AM
5 shuriken cost 1gp, but for enchanting they, like all the rest of ammo, are enchanted in groups of 50 shuriken. This logic is derived from the description of shuriken stating "Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them... (emphasize added). So while you buy them in groups of 5, the price of making masterwork and magical shuriken by the normal rules is as if you're making 50 of them.

Winthur
2009-11-18, 11:50 AM
Try using them like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcwrwZUQ7i8)

Fastmover
2009-11-18, 02:15 PM
What book is Palm Throw in?

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-18, 02:26 PM
What book is Palm Throw in?

I think its a special ability of the Master Thrower Prg class (Complete Warrior IIRC)

Fastmover
2009-11-18, 02:43 PM
I think its a special ability of the Master Thrower Prg class (Complete Warrior IIRC)

Thanks friend :)

IncarnumJunkie
2009-12-19, 01:15 AM
Question: What are shuriken good for?

Answer:
'Tis called a Sneak Attack.
Or, with proper feats, 'tis called a Death Attack.

taltamir
2009-12-19, 01:42 AM
Question: What are shuriken good for?

Answer:
'Tis called a Sneak Attack.
Or, with proper feats, 'tis called a Death Attack.

how do they do it better than an inherently superior weapon?

Signmaker
2009-12-19, 01:47 AM
how do they do it better than an inherently superior weapon?

They don't.

A shuriken is good in that it is A.Thrown and B. Ammo (A+B=?)
Therefore, any build that utilizes either of the two concepts, whether it be a master thrower setup or simply using ammo pricing to cop out on weapon enhancements, will find use in a shuriken.

taltamir
2009-12-19, 01:56 AM
They don't.

A shuriken is good in that it is A.Thrown and B. Ammo (A+B=?)
Therefore, any build that utilizes either of the two concepts, whether it be a master thrower setup or simply using ammo pricing to cop out on weapon enhancements, will find use in a shuriken.

ok... so there is no method which I am unaware of in which a thrown ammo makes for superior sneak attack weapon than other weapons...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-19, 09:55 AM
ok... so there is no method which I am unaware of in which a thrown ammo makes for superior sneak attack weapon than other weapons...Thrown weapons add Str to damage. That and a couple of throw-specific feats are the only reason to go thrown over a bow.

ericgrau
2009-12-19, 11:03 AM
They don't.

A shuriken is good in that it is A.Thrown and B. Ammo (A+B=?)
Therefore, any build that utilizes either of the two concepts, whether it be a master thrower setup or simply using ammo pricing to cop out on weapon enhancements, will find use in a shuriken.

This is it in a nutshell. In general bow > shuriken > other throwing weapon. OTOH a little TWF rapid shot flurry of blows action against low AC could work situationally.

Kobold-Bard
2009-12-19, 11:11 AM
Where is the rule for throwing 3 shuriken/attack? I have a Ninja player who is slaughtering everything with Sudden Strike shurikens.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-19, 11:14 AM
Where is the rule for throwing 3 shuriken/attack? I have a Ninja player who is slaughtering everything with Sudden Strike shurikens.

In 3e. So there's no way you should have a ninja with Sudden Strike throwing three shuriken per attack, because both are from different editions.

Zom B
2009-12-19, 11:25 AM
Shuriken, what are they good for?
Absolutely NOTHING, say it again!

Oh, good God, y'all.

Kobold-Bard
2009-12-19, 11:33 AM
In 3e. So there's no way you should have a ninja with Sudden Strike throwing three shuriken per attack, because both are from different editions.

Then he shall be punished for his insubordination. Thank you Yuki, for your help. As I dance in his blood I shall think of you.

:smalltongue:

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-19, 11:35 AM
Also, even if he could, he'd only be dealing Sudden Strike once per attack no matter how many shuriken he throws, just as if he'd used Manyshot.

The rule was probably intended to... deliver lots of poison at once?

ericgrau
2009-12-19, 02:16 PM
Don't forget strength bonus and magic weapon damage too.

As far as I can tell the best thing about many shot is that it takes a standard action instead of a full round action. Probably if there are lots of obstacles and tactical movement or a surprise round or etc. Then 2 arrows are worth it for a full BAB class, and more than 2 may be situationally useful.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-19, 02:53 PM
What would happen if you used Manyshot with 3e shurikens? Would you throw two? Four? Six?

RebelRogue
2009-12-19, 04:14 PM
However, make the bracers give you the ability to draw a weapon as an immediate action and take TWF, and you're home free.
Since you can't take Immediate actions when Flatfooted, this cannot help you get an initiative bonus. For defending it would work, except it's not allowed on ammunition as has been pointed out.

Blas_de_Lezo
2009-12-19, 04:24 PM
3.0. 3.5 -> Useless crap.

4ed-> you could have some cool uses of shurikens, as in 4ed, enchanted weapons with at least a +1, always return to your hand. Shuriken is the easiest weapon to conceal, so there's a good reason for a rogue to always carry a cheap enchanted shuriken!