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TabletopNuke
2009-11-17, 02:26 PM
The temperature band system presented in the Frostburn and Sandstorm supplements works well for most extreme climates. However, under this system, the threat posed by -300F temperatures is the same as that from -60F, which doesnt seem entirely accurate. Therefore, a new temperature band was devised, preternatural cold.

Preternatural Cold:

Temperatures below -180F are considered preternatural cold. Unprotected characters exposed to preternatural cold take 2d6 points of cold damage and 2d4 points on nonlethal damage per minute (no save). For every 20 degrees below -180F (rounded up), the cold damage increases by 1d6 and the nonlethal damage increases by 1d4. Therefore, an unprotected character in -230F weather would take 4d6 points of cold damage and 4d4 points on nonlethal damage per minute. Partially protected characters take damage once per 10 minutes instead of once per minute.

A level of protection of 5 or 6 provides partial protection against preternatural cold. Nothing outside of total immunity to cold can provide complete protection against the vicious bite of preternatural cold.

Ashtagon
2009-11-17, 03:28 PM
At -300 F, I'd be more concerned about the oxygen in the atmosphere liquefying than about the cold. It's literally physically impossible to breathe because there isn't anything to breathe.

At -109 F, carbon dioxide will solidify. This gas is vital for breathing, because the presence of CO2 is required to trigger the breathing reflex. Without it, you literally would have to consciously think about breathing as a specific action.

Basically, at extreme cold temperatures, the physical composition of what you're breathing begins to break down into an unbreathable form, which has a far more significant effect on human activity than mere coldness.

imp_fireball
2009-11-17, 06:21 PM
At -300 F, I'd be more concerned about the oxygen in the atmosphere liquefying than about the cold. It's literally physically impossible to breathe because there isn't anything to breathe.

At -109 F, carbon dioxide will solidify. This gas is vital for breathing, because the presence of CO2 is required to trigger the breathing reflex. Without it, you literally would have to consciously think about breathing as a specific action.

Basically, at extreme cold temperatures, the physical composition of what you're breathing begins to break down into an unbreathable form, which has a far more significant effect on human activity than mere coldness.

This assumes the human hasn't found another way to breathe (Mt Everest head gear or magic).

Anyway, good rule OP. It isn't entirely out of the question to have adventures in very cold environs as it is in constant firestorm ones.

DracoDei
2009-11-17, 06:48 PM
As an engineer this thread give me teh happy... and it managed to do it without killing any catgirls in the main post, and only a few in Ashtagon's reply.

As an engineer I also approve of the occasional dead catgirl.

Zeta Kai
2009-11-17, 06:52 PM
As an engineer I also approve of the occasional dead catgirl.

I guess a few dead catgirls are within the specs. As long as they pass the safety tolerances. The QA process is always a bear when you involve those. :smallwink:

TabletopNuke
2009-11-17, 10:49 PM
At -300 F, I'd be more concerned about the oxygen in the atmosphere liquefying than about the cold. It's literally physically impossible to breathe because there isn't anything to breathe

Anyone posting on this forum should well aware of the fact that D&D has many creatures without the need to breathe.:wink: Off the top of my head, there's elementals, earth gensai, undead, and constructs. I'm sure I'm missing some, but you get the idea.

I could say that suffocation rules begin to apply at a certain point, or increase the nonlethal damage. How do you suggest I remedy this?


As an engineer this thread give me teh happy...

Glad to be of service.


As an engineer I also approve of the occasional dead catgirl.

Dead catgirl? That's a new one.

Zeta Kai
2009-11-18, 12:13 AM
Dead catgirl? That's a new one.

They're the best kind. :smallamused:

Tackyhillbillu
2009-11-18, 12:33 AM
They're the best kind. :smallamused:

What about Undead Catgirls?

Temotei
2009-11-18, 12:44 AM
What about Undead Catgirls?

Are they dead first?

DracoDei
2009-11-18, 01:22 AM
Pfft... if you are going to ask such questions, why are you stopping at the easy ones?
What about four-state Schrodinger's Cat-girls (who are simultaneously alive, dead, undead, and deathless until observed)?

Zexion
2010-02-19, 09:49 PM
What about cat-girls that... actually, I can't really top DracoDei. Good job.

Fortuna
2010-02-19, 10:03 PM
Come on, we can find more states of existence! How about catgirls that are alive, dead, undead, deathless, solid, liquid, gaseous, plasma, Boze-Einstein Condensates, baryonic, non-baryonic and ketchup until observed?

TheLash
2010-02-20, 01:17 PM
Being an HVAC student this thread makes me smile.

Of course I would like to know what happens at -460F? Save vs death every round?

Glimbur
2010-02-20, 01:43 PM
Being an HVAC student this thread makes me smile.

Of course I would like to know what happens at -460F? Save vs death every round?

Punchings. Punchings for being 0.4 degrees cooler than absolute zero.

This idea does add extra verisimilitude, but how necessary is it in a heroic fantasy game? How often will this come up?

Eurus
2010-02-20, 01:47 PM
The lich hides his phylactery in space? :smalltongue:

Eldan
2010-02-20, 01:49 PM
My campaign setting is so cool, it goes below absolute zero!

Glimbur
2010-02-20, 01:57 PM
My campaign setting is so cool, it goes below absolute zero!

That's just...
chilling.
http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/Glimbur/david_caruso_sunglasses.jpg

Zexion
2010-02-20, 03:01 PM
Probably. Perhaps with size and type modifiers, though.

Harperfan7
2010-02-20, 06:36 PM
That's just...
chilling.
http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/Glimbur/david_caruso_sunglasses.jpg

YEEAAAHHH!!!

d13
2010-02-20, 06:53 PM
*Shamelessly steals template from the Sleight of Hand thread*

http://i48.tinypic.com/5voyae.jpg

Fortuna
2010-02-20, 07:18 PM
That's a decent sleight of hand check you just made, I've got to say.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-20, 07:20 PM
Why does he have two pairs of sunglasses?

Solaris
2010-02-20, 07:41 PM
This idea does add extra verisimilitude, but how necessary is it in a heroic fantasy game? How often will this come up?

I'm in the brigade that touts itself as the "Arctic Wolves" and I once (accidentally) used the weather to TPK stupid southlander players three days into the adventure, two days before the first combat encounter was slated to take place. How often do you think it'll come up?
I'd put the start line at -80, not -180, though. -80 is about the coldest you'll find on Earth.

As an aside, I apparently come with cold protection 5 or a permanent endure elements effect 'cause I can go out in -30 for several hours wearing street clothes and be fine. These rules could definitely go with some nod towards acclimatization - say a +2 bonus to the Fort save if you've spent a week in that temperature band.

Harperfan7
2010-02-20, 07:46 PM
Slightly more D&D appropriate (http://fukung.net/v/25060/742bb566b544efda60fa909b677683c8.jpg)

erikun
2010-02-21, 03:00 PM
I would start the Preternatural Cold at -120, simply so that the lowest band (Supernatural? I don't have the book handy) has a temperature range of at least 30 degrees.

Regardless of how you set it up, though, you'll run into the odd situation where a character can wander around in a sub-absolute zero environment and survive, either from high cold resistance or cold immunity. At some point, you'll want to consider more than just damage.


As an aside, I apparently come with cold protection 5 or a permanent endure elements effect 'cause I can go out in -30 for several hours wearing street clothes and be fine.
Negative thirty degrees?! As in, thirty celcius/sixty fahrenheit below freezing? I can wander around outside in a t-shirt and a light jacket in twenty fahrenheit without much problem - assuming no wind - but either you can't feel cold or your definition of "street clothes" is a bit different than mine.

hamishspence
2010-02-21, 03:06 PM
Players Guide to Faerun has some planar regions being cold enough that you take 3d10 cold damage per round.

Or even 3d12 damage, in one case.

Solaris
2010-02-21, 03:16 PM
I would start the Preternatural Cold at -120, simply so that the lowest band (Supernatural? I don't have the book handy) has a temperature range of at least 30 degrees.

Regardless of how you set it up, though, you'll run into the odd situation where a character can wander around in a sub-absolute zero environment and survive, either from high cold resistance or cold immunity. At some point, you'll want to consider more than just damage.

The lowest band starts at -50. It's Unearthly Cold, -50 F or less.


Negative thirty degrees?! As in, thirty celcius/sixty fahrenheit below freezing? I can wander around outside in a t-shirt and a light jacket in twenty fahrenheit without much problem - assuming no wind - but either you can't feel cold or your definition of "street clothes" is a bit different than mine.

Minus thirty Fahrenheit. I'm American, I assume everyone uses the same system I do even though nobody else does. At minus sixty I put on a jacket over my long-sleeved shirt and blue jeans. I wear a hat and gloves at -20/-30ish, too.

Eldan
2010-02-21, 04:22 PM
I don't know you people, but it's currently about -5C around here during the day, and I don't have a problem going outside in a t-shirt. True, that's only for twenty minutes or so at a time, but it's really not that cold.

Temotei
2010-02-21, 04:51 PM
Why does he have two pairs of sunglasses?

You're not allowed to see his eyes.

Zeta Kai
2010-02-21, 05:17 PM
Negative thirty degrees?! As in, thirty celcius/sixty fahrenheit below freezing? I can wander around outside in a t-shirt and a light jacket in twenty fahrenheit without much problem - assuming no wind - but either you can't feel cold or your definition of "street clothes" is a bit different than mine.

Temperatures in D&D are always given in Fahrenheit.

Zexion
2010-02-22, 12:21 AM
Good point. I think D&D should be calculated using the Metric system. Anyone else agree?

Ashtagon
2010-02-22, 03:22 AM
Personally, in answer to the question "how cold?", I think the best answer is "it's 1d6 damage per minute cold".

DracoDei
2010-02-22, 03:34 AM
Good point. I think D&D should be calculated using the Metric system. Anyone else agree?

I think that everyone should use whatever they are most comfortable with in their games. For the boards, I think the easiest communication is going to be English, since I can't remember anyone posting anything in Metric.

I also think that, while generally inferior (even if it is what I use, being American), the English system is better for D&D since the Metric system didn't exist in the middle ages, so it adds a bit of flavor. I know that I liked the fact that Ironclaw (don't worry if you have never heard of it) uses Stones as its unit of weight.

Ashtagon
2010-02-22, 05:40 AM
I think that everyone should use whatever they are most comfortable with in their games. For the boards, I think the easiest communication is going to be English, since I can't remember anyone posting anything in Metric.

I also think that, while generally inferior (even if it is what I use, being American), the English system is better for D&D since the Metric system didn't exist in the middle ages, so it adds a bit of flavor. I know that I liked the fact that Ironclaw (don't worry if you have never heard of it) uses Stones as its unit of weight.

You know, the "English" system (by which I assume you mean Fahrenheit), didn't exist in the middle ages either, what with the good gentleman not having been born until 1686. He proposed the system in 1724, long after the technology era of most D&D settings. The earliest numbered temperature scale ever was the romer, invented in 1701.

As long as the units are marked so we know which scale we are looking at, online converters exist.

Eldan
2010-02-22, 06:43 AM
I use the metric system for everything in real life, but I'm not getting anything like that into my DnD. First of all, it makes no sense on a flavour standpoint, and second it reminds me of the unwieldiness of german DnD's "1.5 meter step" and "19.5 meters reach on that spell". Ugh.

Ashtagon
2010-02-22, 06:54 AM
I use the metric system for everything in real life, but I'm not getting anything like that into my DnD. First of all, it makes no sense on a flavour standpoint, and second it reminds me of the unwieldiness of german DnD's "1.5 meter step" and "19.5 meters reach on that spell". Ugh.

I heard about that 1.5 m translation. I've seen other metricised d20 games that use a 1 square = 2 metre conversion, which seems much more sensible.

Zexion
2010-02-22, 11:53 PM
2 metres makes more sense.

Solaris
2010-02-23, 12:47 AM
Good point. I think D&D should be calculated using the Metric system. Anyone else agree?

Vehemently, no. At least, not D&D books printed for the US. If they must be, D&D books printed for the UK and other nations that use the Metric system should be converted to the native system of measurement, just as they're converted to the native language. The Star Wars d20 RPG used the Metric system, and did a 1 square equals 2 meters conversion. It also featured a table of conversions because Americans, the bulk of the book's audience, aren't native to the Metric system.


I think that everyone should use whatever they are most comfortable with in their games. For the boards, I think the easiest communication is going to be English, since I can't remember anyone posting anything in Metric.

I also think that, while generally inferior (even if it is what I use, being American), the English system is better for D&D since the Metric system didn't exist in the middle ages, so it adds a bit of flavor. I know that I liked the fact that Ironclaw (don't worry if you have never heard of it) uses Stones as its unit of weight.

I agree. I've used both pretty much my entire life and run into problems with neither system. Metric is not innately better than Imperial, just has a more uniform system of conversions. In my line of work, we actually use both systems interchangeably. Nobody gets confused. Wild, innit?

The measurement of temperature didn't exist until fairly recently, but it is a handy benchmark for metagame purposes. Imperial measurements of distance, weight, etcetera weren't really standardized until recently, either, but they did exist in some form or another in the medieval era. They help with the verisimilitude of the setting compared to Metric measurements, as over here they're regarded as being more scientific and futuristic.

But, just to make sure we haven't completely derailed the thread, what exactly composes protection levels 5 and 6?

TabletopNuke
2010-02-24, 03:08 PM
Of course I would like to know what happens at -460F? Save vs death every round?
I'm not sure what happens as one approaches absolute zero. Someone more knowlegable on the subject than I should figure out the details for superconductivity and superfluidity.

What about creatures with the cold subtype? Are they immune to all this?


This idea does add extra verisimilitude, but how necessary is it in a heroic fantasy game? How often will this come up?

My Breakdown setting is sci-fi/fantasy. Also, a lot of planes feature extreme cold, like the Elemental Plane of Cold, Stygia, and some portions of the Abyss.


I'm in the brigade that touts itself as the "Arctic Wolves" and I once (accidentally) used the weather to TPK stupid southlander players three days into the adventure, two days before the first combat encounter was slated to take place. How often do you think it'll come up?
I'd put the start line at -80, not -180, though. -80 is about the coldest you'll find on Earth.
Deliberate TPK? Let's hear it for brutal DMs!

I was thinking the lowest recorded temperature on Earth was -165 for some reason. I just looked it up, and according to the almighty Wikipedia, it's just above -130 F. -80 sounds good I guess (don't have enough knowledge on this matter to make accurate decisions). That gives the Unearthly Cold band a 30 degree range.


But, just to make sure we haven't completely derailed the thread, what exactly composes protection levels 5 and 6?
Base levels of protection stack with equipment protection. For example, a tiefling in improvised shelter and wearing a cold weather outfit would have a protection level of 7 (3 for cold resistance 5, +3 for the shelter, +1 for the cold weather outfit).

TheLash
2010-02-24, 05:53 PM
I was thinking about that last night before I went to bed. I think that there are a number of things you can do with it. I thought about the Save vs death and I liked that. I also was thinking of raw magic freezing and being able to be harvested. I'm not sure for what but I might have some time to work that out. Or maybe a board member could.

As for the creatures with the cold type. I would say they reach a state of suspended animation. Waiting for the temperature to reach above -460.

TabletopNuke
2010-02-24, 10:29 PM
I think that there are a number of things you can do with it. I thought about the Save vs death and I liked that. I also was thinking of raw magic freezing and being able to be harvested. I'm not sure for what but I might have some time to work that out. Or maybe a board member could.

As for the creatures with the cold type. I would say they reach a state of suspended animation. Waiting for the temperature to reach above -460.

Frozen magic sounds neat. It could be something like Eberron's dragonshards, or perhaps be used as a substitute for XP for magic item creation.

Suspended animation sounds like the perfect solution.

I think I'll add all the changes after we develop a final version of this.