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Grifthin
2009-11-18, 03:10 AM
Hello guys and Gals - what is the shock trooper fighter, what's the earliest levels you can take shock trooper, and what's the required attributes, can you do it with a Human race and what exactly does it do, and what book is it out of ?

Lots of questions - sorry for the ignorance.

Kosjsjach
2009-11-18, 03:15 AM
Gonna get ninja'd, gonna get ninja'd, gonna get ninja'd...

Shock Trooper is a feat from Complete Warrior, p 112. The earliest it can be taken is level 6 for the +6 BAB requirement; it also requires Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush.

It allows the use of several "tactical maneuvers", the most vaunted of which is Heedless Charge, which allows you to take the penalty from Power Attack to AC instead of your attack roll (with some limitations).

FYI, this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists) is a great resource for looking up the source of WotC material.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-18, 03:16 AM
Shock Trooper is a tactical feat out of Complete Warrior.

It's first available at level 6, due to BAB requirements for the feat.

The most used option given via the feat is the ability to take the Power Attack penalty to Armor Class, rather than Attack Bonus. This allows a fighter to get maximum output from power attack without sacrificing accuracy. With Two handed weapons, and a few other feats, it's conceivable to power attack 1 for 6 to 8. At level 10, that's +60-80 damage per hit.

Crafty Cultist
2009-11-18, 03:17 AM
Shock trooper is a tactical feat that requires power attack, bull rush and a BAB of +6. one of the benifits allows you to use AC instead of attack bonus to power attacks while charging

Edit; Double ninjad

sonofzeal
2009-11-18, 03:17 AM
Hello guys and Gals - what is the shock trooper fighter, what's the earliest levels you can take shock trooper, and what's the required attributes, can you do it with a Human race and what exactly does it do, and what book is it out of ?

Lots of questions - sorry for the ignorance.
Complete Warrior, under Tactical Feats. Requires Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, and +6 BAB, meaning the fastest entry is as Anything1/Fighter6, where the Anything is full-BAB.

Any race can take it, as long as they have the feats. Heck, any class can take it, and while it's easiest for Fighters, it's also quite doable for Barbarians.



The biggest thing is that it lets you Power Attack out of your AC rather than your Attack Bonus when you charge.

sonofzeal
2009-11-18, 03:18 AM
It's first available at level 6, due to BAB requirements for the feat.
I'm not actually sure how the rules work for this, whether you can qualify in the same level that you take it. Can anyone quote rules here?

Kosjsjach
2009-11-18, 03:21 AM
Man, I am grinning so hard right now... :smallbiggrin:

BTW, couldn't you conceivably take the feat at ECL 6, since you can take your full-BAB class level before your feat?

EDIT: Heh, we think similarly. I too would like a rules quote. I just assumed it worked my way.

Killer Angel
2009-11-18, 03:24 AM
The most used option given via the feat is the ability to take the Power Attack penalty to Armor Class, rather than Attack Bonus. This allows a fighter to get maximum output from power attack without sacrificing accuracy. With Two handed weapons, and a few other feats, it's conceivable to power attack 1 for 6 to 8. At level 10, that's +60-80 damage per hit.

The bad thing of this (greatly increasin' your output damage), is that if you start killing the bbeg one-shot in the first round, sooner or later, you'll find enemies capable of doing the same.

As said by PersonMan:
if you kill your enemies too quickly, then your DM is just going to add more enemies, or make them tougher. So one of the first things most melee builds should so is work out how it is going to deal respectable damage. If you don't, then youíll either have to rely on your party members to kill your enemies (a perfectly acceptable tactical option, as long as they know that itís their job to do so and are half decent at doing it) or you'll have to deal with marathon combat, which greatly increases the probability of someone in your party getting killed. But after your build can deal respectable damage, move on. Optimizing damage to a ridiculous level is self defeating.

BobVosh
2009-11-18, 03:25 AM
Any race can, but the usual melee power houses are the best. Catfolk, human, etc.

Livor
2009-11-18, 03:41 AM
Throw in some Leap Attack and Frenzied Berserker, and you've got yourself a pretty capable glass cannon. Simply sacrifice your AC, and rely on your inability to die from damage during frenzy and some miss chances. Obviously, it's got some glaring weaknesses, but it does some nice damage.

Until your DM hits you with a save or die, and you go and cry in a corner.

Sliver
2009-11-18, 03:46 AM
Throw in some Leap Attack and Frenzied Berserker, and you've got yourself a pretty capable glass cannon. Simply sacrifice your AC, and rely on your inability to die from damage during frenzy and some miss chances. Obviously, it's got some glaring weaknesses, but it does some nice damage.

Until your DM hits you with a save or die, and you go and cry in a corner.

Just pump up your will save and hope you don't kill the healer before he manages to return you to the living while you rage.. And you have plenty of HP, anything that could strike you down could do that with any of the rest of the party if they score a hit. And your saves are doing well too, as you have to pump the will to get out of berserk mode and your fort save is doing well anyway.. And you should have evasion, no?

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-18, 03:48 AM
I'm not actually sure how the rules work for this, whether you can qualify in the same level that you take it. Can anyone quote rules here?

Yes. Otherwise, Fighters wouldn't be able to qualify for Quickdraw at level 1.


Man, I am grinning so hard right now... :smallbiggrin:

BTW, couldn't you conceivably take the feat at ECL 6, since you can take your full-BAB class level before your feat?

EDIT: Heh, we think similarly. I too would like a rules quote. I just assumed it worked my way.

Class levels are always selected first. It's one of the reasons you need a PrC's feat/skill/bab requirements BEFORE taking the first level in the class.


The bad thing of this (greatly increasin' your output damage), is that if you start killing the bbeg one-shot in the first round, sooner or later, you'll find enemies capable of doing the same.

If the argument is that "this will get used against you", then that does not invalidate the effectiveness of the ability.

Other abilities that fall in this category include Holy Word spells, Disjunction, and similar.


Throw in some Leap Attack and Frenzied Berserker, and you've got yourself a pretty capable glass cannon. Simply sacrifice your AC, and rely on your inability to die from damage during frenzy and some miss chances. Obviously, it's got some glaring weaknesses, but it does some nice damage.

Until your DM hits you with a save or die, and you go and cry in a corner.
Steadfast determination + good Con covers most SoD's. Or Mad Foam Rager.

The ability to deal good damage has little bearing on other potential strengths or weaknesses of a character.

Grifthin
2009-11-18, 03:54 AM
What is leap attack ? Thanks for the info by the way.

sonofzeal
2009-11-18, 03:56 AM
Just pump up your will save and hope you don't kill the healer before he manages to return you to the living while you rage.. And you have plenty of HP, anything that could strike you down could do that with any of the rest of the party if they score a hit. And your saves are doing well too, as you have to pump the will to get out of berserk mode and your fort save is doing well anyway.. And you should have evasion, no?
I recommend "Righteous Wrath" from BoED. It refers to Rage, not Frenzy, but there's precedent for letting it work for both, and that's exactly what the feat was intended for.

Kosjsjach
2009-11-18, 03:58 AM
What is leap attack ? Thanks for the info by the way.

Dude. I already showed you this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists). (Click "feat index".) :smallwink:

Leap Attack is a feat in Complete Adventurer, p110. I recommend looking it up.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-18, 03:59 AM
What is leap attack ? Thanks for the info by the way.

Complete adventurer. Make a jump check, increase your power attack by 100%.

Killer Angel
2009-11-18, 04:41 AM
If the argument is that "this will get used against you", then that does not invalidate the effectiveness of the ability.

Other abilities that fall in this category include Holy Word spells, Disjunction, and similar.


I know and I agree. But the posts before mine, were all about the feat itself, so I wanted to add something different to the discussion... :smallbiggrin:

Jokes apart, the "this will get used against you", should be counted in real play: you know the style of the campaign and what likes the DM: some things can be OK, others can be... dangerous and fun-ruining.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-18, 04:56 AM
I know and I agree. But the posts before mine, were all about the feat itself, so I wanted to add something different to the discussion... :smallbiggrin:

Jokes apart, the "this will get used against you", should be counted in real play: you know the style of the campaign and what likes the DM: some things can be OK, others can be... dangerous and fun-ruining.

My personal rule at the table is: "If a player uses it, so can I".

I abide by gentleman's agreements. The moment one is broken, the moment someone tries to simulacrum, or disjunction, or hulking hurler?

Well, I kick it up a notch.

Grifthin
2009-11-18, 04:58 AM
Sounds a bit to uber - I think I might just take Shock trooper. I'm trying to build a fighter that won't completely get overshadowed by damn spell casters. My first try at a fighter - some feats picked just cause I like em.

Human Level 8 fighter, Chaotic Neutral.
18 Strength
16 Dexterity
18 Constitution
14 intelligence
13 Wisdom
12 Charisma

99 Hitpoints. Low magic item campaign - using a Great sword and Scalemail.
Feats:
Improved initiative
Power attack
Cleave
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Improved Bullrush
Quick Draw
Shock trooper

Skills in jump, Climb, intimidate, Swim, Ride.

What do you guys think - completely useless, should contribute enough to party.

Livor
2009-11-18, 05:01 AM
I guess my tone didn't come off the way I intended. I didn't mean to say the build was weaker in other areas because it excels in one. I was merely pointing out that it still falls victim to those pesky quadratic wizards. Couple this with the annoying reality that eventually you're going to meet one of these wizards, it seems pertinent to bring up potential weaknesses. Obviously, these weaknesses are shared with the majority of the fighter archetype, but I didn't want to overstate it's effectiveness too much.

It does seem like something that would be fun to play, though.

Sliver
2009-11-18, 05:03 AM
Complete adventurer. Make a jump check, increase your power attack by 100%.

I was sure the errata only refers to normal weapons and didn't change the wording of what happens for THW.. Making the errata change nothing really..

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-18, 05:09 AM
I guess my tone didn't come off the way I intended. I didn't mean to say the build was weaker in other areas because it excels in one. I was merely pointing out that it still falls victim to those pesky quadratic wizards. Couple this with the annoying reality that eventually you're going to meet one of these wizards, it seems pertinent to bring up potential weaknesses. Obviously, these weaknesses are shared with the majority of the fighter archetype, but I didn't want to overstate it's effectiveness too much.

It does seem like something that would be fun to play, though.
<Insert Melee Class Here> falls victim to those pesky quadratic wizards. That's not a weakness of the build, but of the PC type in general.


I was sure the errata only refers to normal weapons and didn't change the wording of what happens for THW.. Making the errata change nothing really..
It states normal power attack damage. One could argue that normal means "one handed weapon power attack". One could just as easily argue "the damage granted by the power attack feat, excluding other modifiers to the feat". There are other, less restrictive interpretations, as well. I tend to lean towards the latter, as the power attack feat outlines its typical (standard) uses.

Roderick_BR
2009-11-18, 06:58 AM
Just pump up your will save and hope you don't kill the healer before he manages to return you to the living while you rage.. And you have plenty of HP, anything that could strike you down could do that with any of the rest of the party if they score a hit. And your saves are doing well too, as you have to pump the will to get out of berserk mode and your fort save is doing well anyway.. And you should have evasion, no?

There's some itens that can help. In the Dungeon Master 2, there's a ring that makes you immune to some mind control spells (compulsion, I think), and the Magic Item Compendium have some more.
Now, to make your DM foam, be a barbarian and get the variant Lion Toten, that replaces your fast movement by pounce. Full attack at the end of a charge. That's 4 attacks (5 if you are frenzying with frenzied berzerker, or have a speed weapon, or a haste spell on you).
Just be careful also with pesky rogues that may have a certain tactical feat that can give you problems.

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-18, 07:01 AM
Just be careful also with pesky rogues that may have a certain tactical feat that can give you problems.


If you are talking about Elusive Target, I've seen fighters with it, and doing nothing wrong.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-18, 10:01 AM
Will saves are nothing to the man who has taken Steadfast Determination.

Person_Man
2009-11-18, 03:03 PM
Perhaps you should take some time to read up on melee combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7044115).