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Edwin
2009-11-19, 11:28 AM
So, I was thinking about joining this Pathfinder game. With monsters. Meaning, we are monsters with class levels.

A player of the group made an attempt to explain me the rules for advancing monster by class levels 'cause I'm new to pathfinder. Then, just to see if I could figure it out myself, I checked the book itself.

Now, however, I am confused. The explanation given to me by the players seems incoherent with what the book says.

My question is then; if the group starts at ECL 6, how many levels of Sorcerer would an imp, following the pathfinder rules, have?

Jergmo
2009-11-19, 12:05 PM
So, I was thinking about joining this Pathfinder game. With monsters. Meaning, we are monsters with class levels.

A player of the group made an attempt to explain me the rules for advancing monster by class levels 'cause I'm new to pathfinder. Then, just to see if I could figure it out myself, I checked the book itself.

Now, however, I am confused. The explanation given to me by the players seems incoherent with what the book says.

My question is then; if the group starts at ECL 6, how many levels of Sorcerer would an imp, following the pathfinder rules, have?

Imps don't have a listed level adjustment, which means that somehow, despite it not being particularly powerful, its level adjustment would be so high as to be unplayable. However, if you go by general 3.5 rules, it'd be at minimum ECL 3 due to hit die.

cbs2186
2009-11-19, 12:07 PM
Following PF rules, as I understand them, you look at the CR of the imp. That is the ECL of an imp with no class levels. 2, I believe.

So, at ECL 6, you'd be an imp 2/Sorc 4.

Now, whether you lose your racial hit dice or keep them, I don't know. My group has houseruled a lot of monster characters and we tend to drop them, but I don't know if this is the actual rule as I don't have the book with me currently.

Edwin
2009-11-19, 12:08 PM
Imps don't have a listed level adjustment, which means that somehow, despite it not being particularly powerful, its level adjustment would be so high as to be unplayable. However, if you go by general 3.5 rules, it'd be at minimum ECL 3 due to hit die.

I said Pathfinder, not 3.5e.

Pathfinder have a system for playing monsters, which makes a lot more sense than some of the ridiculous LA adjustments some races have. Or, I thought so.

Now I don't know, because I'm no longer sure how it works.

Edit: I don't think its that simple. There's all that stuff about gaining half a level per 3, but always being a couple of levels behind and yadidadida.

cbs2186
2009-11-19, 12:09 PM
From the PRD:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monstersAsPCs.html



Monsters as PCs

Using one of the monsters presented in this book as a character can be very rewarding, but weighing such a character against others is challenging. Monsters are not designed with the rules for players in mind, and as such can be very unbalancing if not handled carefully.

There are a number of monsters in this book that do not possess racial Hit Dice. Such creatures are the best options for player characters, but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level, even without a racial Hit Die. Such characters should only be allowed in a group that is 2nd-level or higher.

For monsters with racial Hit Dice, the best way to allow monster PCs is to pick a CR and allow all of the players to make characters using monsters of that CR. Treat the monster's CR as its total class levels and allow the characters to multiclass into the core classes. Do not advance such monsters by adding Hit Dice. Monster PCs should only advance through classes.

If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.

Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.

GMs should carefully consider any monster PCs in their groups. Some creatures are simply not suitable for play as PCs, due to their powers or role in the game. As monster characters progress, GMs should closely monitor whether such characters are disruptive or abusive to the rules and modify them as needed to improve play.





So, as I read that, your imp would have X sorc levels, where X = 6 - (CR of Imp). It would get its racial HD and additional HD for each Sorc level.

Rixx
2009-11-19, 12:10 PM
You use the creature's Challenge Rating (CR) as its total "monster levels" - and take the rest as Sorcerer levels.

Imps are CR 2, so you'd be Imp 2 / Sorcerer 4.

Halfway between party levels 8 and 9, take an extra level in Sorcerer, to compensate for your monster levels becoming less useful.

For the record, your ability score adjustments would be +6 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha.

Level Adjustment doesn't exist in Pathfinder.

Duke of URL
2009-11-19, 12:11 PM
Imps don't have a listed level adjustment, which means that somehow, despite it not being particularly powerful, its level adjustment would be so high as to be unplayable. However, if you go by general 3.5 rules, it'd be at minimum ECL 3 due to hit die.

In standard 3.5, looking at the Imp's special abilities, especially the at-will SLAs, I'd be hard pressed to give it any less than an LA +3.

That'd leave it with 3 RHD and a +3 LA, for no sorcerer levels. I don't know what the Pathfinder rules for monster characters are, however. My own fixes for LA/RHD (which is a work in progress, and intertwined with a lot of other changes) would allow the character to cast as a 2nd level sorcerer at ECL 6.

Edwin
2009-11-19, 12:13 PM
You use the creature's Challenge Rating (CR) as its total "monster levels" - and take the rest as Sorcerer levels.

Imps are CR 2, so you'd be Imp 2 / Sorcerer 4.

Halfway between party levels 8 and 9, take an extra level in Sorcerer, to compensate for your monster levels becoming less useful.

For the record, your ability score adjustments would be +6 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha.

Sure it's this simple?

The guy who explained it to me made it sound like I would get one level for the cost of three regular levels, and that would go on for (CR/2)x3 levels. Or the like.

cbs2186
2009-11-19, 12:15 PM
Rixx explained it as written in the Chunk of text I posted, which was copied directly from the Paizo site. So yup, it's that simple.

Balanced? Maybe... Simple conversion? yeah.

Rixx
2009-11-19, 12:15 PM
Well, it is that simple. He was probably trying to explain when you start to get extra levels to "replace" half your monster levels - and since Imps are CR 2, this only happens once, between 8th and 9th level.

Duke of URL
2009-11-19, 12:16 PM
Balanced? Maybe... Simple conversion? yeah.

It's not even close to balanced. I want in a Pathfinder game now so I can play a dragon at ridiculously low "ECL" cost.

Edwin
2009-11-19, 12:19 PM
It's not even close to balanced. I want in a Pathfinder game now so I can play a dragon at ridiculously low "ECL" cost.

You can be a very tiny, very weak dragon only as early as ECL 7, by these rules. White, to be precise.

Rixx
2009-11-19, 12:19 PM
The Paizo staff have said that the monsters were not designed to be played, but to be fought. That's why that passage warns about letting PCs play as monsters - it's subject to GM approval, since some monsters have abilities that are way more useful in the hands of players than NPCs (The Hound Archon's Greater Teleport at will, for example).

They did say that if there's enough demand, they'd release a "Savage Species" type book based around a more balanced system for playing as monsters.

Edwin
2009-11-19, 12:22 PM
The Paizo staff have said that the monsters were not designed to be played, but to be fought. That's why that passage warns about letting PCs play as monsters - it's subject to GM approval, since some monsters have abilities that are way more useful in the hands of players than NPCs (The Hound Archon's Greater Teleport at will, for example).

They did say that if there's enough demand, they'd release a "Savage Species" type book based around a more balanced system for playing as monsters.

I suppose considering that all players will be monsters, the imbalance will be slightly outweighed.

Duke of URL
2009-11-19, 12:22 PM
You can be a very tiny, very weak dragon only as early as ECL 7, by these rules. White, to be precise.

How do you get that? Dragons start as low as CR 2.

Edwin
2009-11-19, 12:25 PM
How do you get that? Dragons start as low as CR 2.

I get that because I have zero experience with Pathfinder, and the only dragon I've noticed so far was CL 7.

Rixx
2009-11-19, 12:31 PM
In any case, the rules serve the GM, not the other way around. Any GM who's willing to let you play as a dragon in a mixed party should be prepared to deal with balance issues.

cbs2186
2009-11-19, 12:33 PM
Yes, you could play a classless wyrmling white dragon at ECL2, getting 3d12 HD, a 2d4 cold damage breath, 60ft speed, 30 burrow, 60 swim, a bite doing 1d4, 2 claws doing 1d3 each, 100ft fly, Icewalking, and a cold subtype.

Duke of URL
2009-11-19, 12:51 PM
In any case, the rules serve the GM, not the other way around. Any GM who's willing to let you play as a dragon in a mixed party should be prepared to deal with balance issues.

True. On the other hand, the rules should simply state that there is no provision for playing "monster PCs" instead of offering a laughable "system" along with dire admonitions.

Either the rules allow for it, or they don't. If they allow for it, specify it. If they don't, then don't provide "guidelines" that clearly don't work well.

As "penalizing" as stock 3.5 is for high-ECL races, at least there is a relatively consistent mechanism.


Yes, you could play a classless wyrmling white dragon at ECL2, getting 3d12 HD, a 2d4 cold damage breath, 60ft speed, 30 burrow, 60 swim, a bite doing 1d4, 2 claws doing 1d3 each, 100ft fly, Icewalking, and a cold subtype.

Of course, the +2 CON, -4 INT, -4 CHA does tend to restrict one to the more martial classes. (In 3.5., I'd be thinking Swordsage...) Although Druid or Cleric isn't out of the question, either.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-19, 02:15 PM
The key with a Dragon like that is Rogue. Multiple natural attacks and small size make martial useless, but SA is golden.