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Superglucose
2009-11-22, 01:19 AM
When it comes right down to it, every battle comes to this: deal more damage to them than they deal to you. Why arcane magic is so great is basically this: arcane magic (and divine magic) changes a) how much damage you deal to them, and b) how much damage they deal to you.

Case in point: glitterdust. Glitterdust makes it so that it's super easy to deal damage to them, but also makes it so that they can't deal damage to you. Clearly this works majorly in the party's favor, since they can't hit you and it's easier for you to hit them.

I post this because I just explained it to my friend, and hopefully ten people who were going to post "fighter >>> wizard" are going to read this and realize why arcane magic is so powerful, and that it doesn't have to do with damage output, but rather how a mage affects a battle.

Grifthin
2009-11-22, 01:23 AM
Odd post for the Oots forums. Oh and for your information Fighter > Wizard.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-22, 01:29 AM
1: This probably ought to be inthe gaming forum.

2: @ Grifthin: LOLOLOLOLO

3: Melee actually can be done better by magic users than melee classes as well, though it's easier with a Druid or Cleric than a Wizard.

Grifthin
2009-11-22, 01:37 AM
I try :smallcool:

multilis
2009-11-22, 01:46 AM
Arcane Fool, what will you do when Snarl comes? He will feed on your magic, reducing its effect to 1/10 normal with 9/10 making him stronger!

He will capture you to use your magic as food. He like a Jabba the Hutt will force you to dance scantily clad for his entertainment!

Pray that a melee fighter come rescue you, arcane damsel in distress!

Edwin
2009-11-22, 03:19 AM
Why would there be ten people jumping in to write fighter>wizard?

I'm assuming you mean by sheer damage output, but even then wizards can outdo a fighter. It's not cost effective, and you could certainly find better things to do, but melee types are hardly always supreme in damage output.

Grifthin
2009-11-22, 04:30 AM
Tell that to the chuck norris of paladins. The O man himself.

Edwin
2009-11-22, 04:39 AM
Well, while the "O man" is awesome from the story-telling angle, mechanically, he would have gotten his ass whooped even more by Xykon, and even V, horribly optimized yet still viable as he is, would most likely have mopped the proverbial floor with his paladin behind.

Why? Not because they necessarily does more damage than he can, but because they have so many options available to them. And well, all they need to do is cast fly, soar thirty feet up, and no more attacks for the pally.

Grifthin
2009-11-22, 04:57 AM
nonsense - the beard fist behind his beard would have stopped them if he was ever really in trouble.

Edwin
2009-11-22, 05:09 AM
nonsense - the beard fist behind his beard would have stopped them if he was ever really in trouble.

.. Left your sanity in your drawer, I assume?

Besides, an unarmed strike would hardly do much against a prismatic spray to the face. Hell, he might not even have Improved unarmed strike, in which case it's not even lethal damage.

I kid, I kid.

Grifthin
2009-11-22, 05:29 AM
O-man's voice knows kung-fu. He will just block the spray with his +9000 intimidation check before round house kicking it into another multi-verse for it's audacity.

pffft - silly arcane caster. :smallcool:

Edwin
2009-11-22, 05:56 AM
Good luck hitting him with that round house kick from +300 feet away, all the while the silly arcane caster slaps so many save-or-die/and or -sucks on his ass he'll need a cast for his wheelchair.

Grifthin
2009-11-22, 06:31 AM
300 feet is no obstacle - didn't you know that he can reach anywhere ? Even across planes of existence.

Where do you come up with stuff. Anybody who's knows anything about the Oots universe knows that O-chul is even more awesome than that. I'm terribly dissapointed that you would post something so insulting without even taking the time to do proper research.

Mugen Nightgale
2009-11-22, 07:50 AM
Sigh.. this again?

Look, DnD is not Street Fighter kid. All classes are important and have roles. They are supposed to be fighting together not against each other. Wizzies love em shinny shenanigans and they seen to forget this is a co-op game. And most important they forget that without the other classes one could hardly get past lvl 10. Imagine one day if clerics start to act like douches and say "omgz I'm so good you guys can't live without me, now kneel and worship my supah healing skillz."

Anyways this discussion is old and childish. Creators of DnD made the game to be fun and interesting to play with your friends. Stop dishonoring their efforts.

Edwin
2009-11-22, 08:00 AM
Sigh.. this again?

Look, DnD is not Street Fighter kid. All classes are important and have roles. They are supposed to be fighting together not against each other. Wizzies love em shinny shenanigans and they seen to forget this is a co-op game. And most important they forget that without the other classes one could hardly get past lvl 10. Imagine one day if clerics start to act like douches and say "omgz I'm so good you guys can't live without me, now kneel and worship my supah healing skillz."

Anyways this discussion is old and childish. Creators of DnD made the game to be fun and interesting to play with your friends. Stop dishonoring their efforts.

Wauw, dude, failed to notice the premise of our discussion, did ya?

I'll give you a hint; It's all a big joke.

So really, that post of yours is very obsolete, and quite obnoxious.

Edit: Also, who are you calling kid?

Mugen Nightgale
2009-11-22, 08:05 AM
It is? Oh sorry them.
It's just my natural answer for all those posts. That's just a reflect from playing DDO where this kind of discussion is done every single day. I stand by my answer anyways.

Well I think this is on the wrong part of the forum too.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-11-22, 08:05 AM
Wauw, dude, failed to notice the premise of our discussion, did ya?

I'll give you a hint; It's all a big joke.

So really, that post of yours is very obsolete, and quite obnoxious.

Edit: Also, who are you calling kid?

I believe he was talking to OP, who, as far as I can tell, was not joking.

Mugen Nightgale
2009-11-22, 08:08 AM
And yes I was answering to the OP. That's the whole point of topics isn't it?

Edit: Or is it a joke too? heh

Edwin
2009-11-22, 08:08 AM
I stand corrected. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Although I must say, I still feel it was a completely unwarranted post.

Grifthin
2009-11-22, 08:17 AM
Aaaaaw, I was having such fun pretending to be a troll :smallbiggrin:

Oh well then.

Edwin
2009-11-22, 08:22 AM
Aaaaaw, I was having such fun pretending to be a troll :smallbiggrin:

Oh well then.

Such is the fate of us make-believe trolls. Woe, for our bridges will no longer harbor us, and the harassing of goats have been banned. Woe!

TriForce
2009-11-22, 09:28 AM
Wauw, dude, failed to notice the premise of our discussion, did ya?

I'll give you a hint; It's all a big joke.

So really, that post of yours is very obsolete, and quite obnoxious.

Edit: Also, who are you calling kid?

you yourself could have tought about the fact that this forum has been flooded with people saying "OMG BARD >>> ALL"
and " ARCANE >>> ANYTHING ELSE"
and whatever else the fanboys can think about, so in his defence, it really is hardly possible to see what is meant as a joke

Edwin
2009-11-22, 09:43 AM
you yourself could have tought about the fact that this forum has been flooded with people saying "OMG BARD >>> ALL"
and " ARCANE >>> ANYTHING ELSE"
and whatever else the fanboys can think about, so in his defence, it really is hardly possible to see what is meant as a joke

While I am absolutely sure that you have a valid point there, I must say, I have a hard time reading what you just wrote.

Incidentally, what little sense I can make of it, doesn't really make sense after all. I was supposed to think about what now, and why?

Also, take a look proper look at one of my earlier posts:


.. Left your sanity in your drawer, I assume?

Besides, an unarmed strike would hardly do much against a prismatic spray to the face. Hell, he might not even have Improved unarmed strike, in which case it's not even lethal damage.

I kid, I kid.

theinsulabot
2009-11-22, 09:56 AM
this thread has the silly. and the dumb, but mostly the silly

Edwin
2009-11-22, 10:02 AM
this thread has the silly. and the dumb, but mostly the silly

Touché.

Though I see no reason for you to spout in and mention it.

theinsulabot
2009-11-22, 10:08 AM
Touché.

Though I see no reason for you to spout in and mention it.

we need a reason to post on the forums now? i been doin' nit rong all along!

Edwin
2009-11-22, 10:09 AM
we need a reason to post on the forums now? i been doin' nit rong all along!

Mh, that's actually a somewhat valid point.

Acero
2009-11-22, 11:58 AM
arcane magic isn't power. if you can lose all your power by messing up two will saves, you never had it in the first place

Grifthin
2009-11-22, 02:02 PM
Well to be fair, a fighter failing a will save can lead to all sorts of unpleasantness.

Barlen
2009-11-22, 02:22 PM
"No matter how powerful the wizard, a knife in his back seriously cramps his style"




Especially for 10d6 damage =)

Grifthin
2009-11-22, 02:47 PM
Or in the case of a certain half-orc, it's the last thing he ever feels.

Edwin
2009-11-22, 02:47 PM
arcane magic isn't power. if you can lose all your power by messing up two will saves, you never had it in the first place

Then martial power is even less worthy as a power source, considering the horrible will save most fighter-types have.

'Sides, that particular sentence only applies to a very specific situation. :smallsmile:

Grifthin
2009-11-22, 02:51 PM
Then martial power is even less worthy as a power source, considering the horrible will save most fighter-types have.

'Sides, that particular sentence only applies to a very specific situation. :smallsmile:

Funny that - this is actually the one reason no wizard in our group has EVER used disjunction. It's a amazing deterent for something not all that likely to come up.

Acero
2009-11-22, 03:25 PM
Then martial power is even less worthy as a power source, considering the horrible will save most fighter-types have.

:smallsmile:

except that Paladin and Monk (melee classes) have the highest will saves

oh, and its hard for a melee NOT to fail fortitude saves

Milskidasith
2009-11-22, 03:49 PM
except that Paladin and Monk (melee classes) have the highest will saves

oh, and its hard for a melee NOT to fail fortitude saves

Not really. At level 20, it's standard to be tossing around 9th level spells that require a save of around 32, with an 18 in int at level 1 and no feats to upgrade that. Even with a +5 cloak of resistance, 18 con, and a +6 amulet of con, a fighter type only has a +23 fortitude save, which means he beats just over half of the saves. Granted, you could optimize fortitude saves... but the point is that a wizard wouldn't need to target your best save, now would he?

Edwin
2009-11-22, 04:36 PM
except that Paladin and Monk (melee classes) have the highest will saves

oh, and its hard for a melee NOT to fail fortitude saves

And the paladin only has a higher than average Will save if he has a decent Charisma mod. And to use the example given earlier, the O man's charisma mod sucks.

On a more serious note, that's not the point. The point, and the one that the original OP also made, was that as a spellcaster, there was no need for you to fling around fireballs and kill stuff using damage dice.

You have an enormous amount of options available, many of which have more useful effects than simply hitting the bad ogre with 5d6's worth of fire damage. And you don't lose that by blowing a will save, per se, but there's a good chance you will.

Then again, that's sort of standard.

And how has this not been moved to the Roleplaying forums or something? :smallsmile:

Bibliomancer
2009-11-22, 05:23 PM
Interestingly, the role of "fighter" (the term for melee combatant, not the class) is the one that can be most easily replaced in the party (as stated in the PHBII, an official supplement). Clerics and druids can easily become melee combatants with a few supporting buffs from the arcane caster. Also, at high levels, an arcane caster can planar bind an outsider that could beat a normal fighter in melee combat, and also hass quite a few useful spell-like abilities on top of that.

Here's an example that came up in a recent DnD session:

We were starting a new campaign at 5th level. The party consisted of a wizard (myself) two rogues, and a warblade (a supposedly overpowered fighter alternative). After an initial attack while we were guarding two wagons while traveling, the rogues found a large party of hobgoblins. We attacked at dawn to get the benefit of surprise (after the rogues monitored them all night). 'We' in this case, was the two rogues and myself. I cast 2 invisibility spells, one on myself and the other on the changeling rogue, and a reduce person to allow the gnome rogue to hide in the tall grass. We snuck up to the marching hobgoblins and waited for the reduce person to expire. In the surprise round, fireball, two rogues move up, sneak attack hellhounds with the hobgoblins. First round we won the initiative, another fireball, more sneak attack. 12 hobgoblins, 2 hellhounds down, the rogues were able to finish the other two using flanking and one or two low level spells from me.

We left the warblade to guard the wagons, because his fullplate was far too noisy. Next session, that player replaced his character with a swordsage.

Basic lesson: fighters etc. are great if an enemy is within their reach. They fail at all other aspects of the game, including NPC interaction, stealth, and combat not involving the enemy charging them.

Grifthin
2009-11-23, 06:49 AM
Actually fighters only fail at all parts of the game if they are played as a stereo type. A fighter is perfectly cabable of contributing in social situations (via intimidate), Stealth (wear light armor) or by using a ranged weapon to get to hard to reach opponents.

Just saying - If you play a stereotype, the prepare to be stuck in stereotypical role.

Setra
2009-11-23, 07:11 AM
Screw fighters! Screw Wizards!

Duskblades keel you all!

Snake-Aes
2009-11-23, 10:27 AM
Screw fighters! Screw Wizards!

Duskblades keel you all!

Hilarity ensued when I full attack channeled Dimension Hop and hit all five rabid ogres attacking me on the bridge that allowed safe passage over a chasm full of lava.

NYYanks6083
2009-11-23, 07:26 PM
Yeah as much as I hate to admit it ( l enjoy playing melee characters, fighters n rangers in particular) they just don't hold up to a wizard at high level.

Not to say they're useless, a well built 20th level fighter can deal out some serious punishment, but he can't target 20 people with an instant death spell (wail of the banshee), put up an all-but-impenetrable barrier (prismatic sphere, wall), summon all manner of insane creatures, plane-shift, grant himself 3 extra rounds to put up buffs (time stop), reflect spells back on thier caster (spell turning), turn invisible and still attack, etc, etc ,etc. I mean hell a 3RD level wizard can fly, an enormous ability a fighter never gets at all save buying a magic item.

Scarlet Knight
2009-11-23, 07:53 PM
Which is why MU's need to be killed before they reach 3rd level...it's really for the good of all. They all go insane with power eventually anyway...:smallfrown:

Bibliomancer
2009-11-23, 09:01 PM
Actually fighters only fail at all parts of the game if they are played as a stereo type. A fighter is perfectly cabable of contributing in social situations (via intimidate), Stealth (wear light armor) or by using a ranged weapon to get to hard to reach opponents.

Just saying - If you play a stereotype, the prepare to be stuck in stereotypical role.

Intimidate is a great way to have a large host of people harboring vaguely defined plans that include your death. Plus, I would be shocked if more than 1% of fighters had a positive charisma modifier. A fighter needs all three physical ability scores and well as Intelligence (to get any skill points at all) and Wisdom (to avoid getting dominated every session) far more than they need Charisma.

And no, in stealth situations they are still useless, because Hide and Move Silently are both cross-class skills and they only get 2+Intelligence modifier skill points. They can have one but not both unless their intelligence score is 14 or better, which is doubtful outside of,say, 60 point buy. A wizard can do without armor altogether, and also has spells that can boost stealth (invisibility).

Lastly, it's hard to be effective at ranged weapon fighting at all (I doubt a composite longbow is going to scare a dragon), and so requires a large part of the fighter's wealth to be useful.

Thus, the fighter can either be competent at the role of melee combatant (although gish are often better, see duskblade) or passable at it and not totally useless at the above situations. However, not useless is a far cry from useful or powerful. In the 13th level wizard vs. 20th level fighter, the only fighter that's won was one that used higher wealth to buy a bunch of command word custom items and act like a wizard, and that might not have worked if the person playing the wizard hadn't had a few bad decisions or was slightly more lucky.

How exactly can fly be cast at 3rd level? Are you referring to the dragonwrought kobold sorcerer with loredrake?

NYYanks6083
2009-11-24, 02:46 AM
My bad, 3rd level spell. 5th level character...still, based on the rest of your post I think we're in agreement here

ericgrau
2009-11-24, 09:16 AM
I'll just agree that this doesn't need to be a competition. Oft banned cheesy tricks aside, the wizard's best spell options are those that help the fighter. Even based on the fighter's (or barbarian's or paladin's) full BAB alone. Status effect buffs like haste, debuffs and barriers to make things easier for your party, etc. Fighters are supposed to load up on all kinds of crazy spells and magic items to get the fancy stuff they need.

Skills are a matter of the mistaken DMs pumping DCs through the roof. The standard DCs are so low that maxing out a skill isn't always the best idea, while untrained and cross class skills are still useful. Assuming the situation isn't already auto pass/fail for being outside of the scope of the skill.

TheWerdna
2009-11-24, 04:08 PM
Melee can match Casters, *points at Tomb of Battle*

Kish
2009-11-24, 04:15 PM
What I wouldn't give for an Ignore List for threads.

NYYanks6083
2009-11-24, 10:43 PM
Melee can match Casters, *points at Tomb of Battle*

Ya know, I completely forgot about this supplement. Fair enough. This book actually levels the playing field pretty well, largely because it gives melee characters abilities that are almost on par with some high level spells.


What I wouldn't give for an Ignore List for threads.

what I wouldn't give for an ignore useless post that doesn't contribute anything to the topic list for threads :smalltongue:

So since you don't care about the thread, so decided to post on it because....?????

Kish
2009-11-24, 10:47 PM
So since you don't care about the thread, so decided to post on it because....?????
False premise. I didn't say I didn't care about the thread. "Wish off-topic no-clue-why-it-was-started-here optimization thread wasn't in a forum I read" counts as caring; and since the entire thread is off-topic, I'm hardly going to feel guilty for being off the thread's topic.

ZerglingOne
2009-11-24, 11:08 PM
Well, wind wall + grease cast in front of the caster, hello mr. nullified fighter.

NYYanks6083
2009-11-25, 10:21 PM
Well, wind wall + grease cast in front of the caster, hello mr. nullified fighter.

the sad thing is, that could actually work hilariously well


False premise. I didn't say I didn't care about the thread. "Wish off-topic no-clue-why-it-was-started-here optimization thread wasn't in a forum I read" counts as caring; and since the entire thread is off-topic, I'm hardly going to feel guilty for being off the thread's topic.

Fascinating point. Too bad it's not what you said, or remotely implied, at all. Had you said "hey guys this is in the wrong forum", well that would have been different, but you didn't :smalltongue:

Instead of complaining about the lack of an ignore button, how about creating one yourself, by ignoring the thread to begin with :smalltongue:

Bibliomancer
2009-11-25, 11:57 PM
I am a bit surprised that the moderators haven't moved this thread.

Anyways, although Tome of Battle gives tanks a much needed boost (mainly be mimicking spells, I would like to point out), the main areas where its classes are superior to the ones in core are when they receive bonuses to mobility, like the fly stances of the Shadow Hand and Desert Sun schools. A tank that can't get within 5 feet of an opponent can't really contribute to the fight without specializing in ranged weapons, and is then still inferior even to a wizard using fireball.

Also, the polymorph spells make wizards better than fighters in core. A three person wizard-druid-rogue party is far stronger and far more flexible than a fighter-cleric-rogue party, no matter how well the fighter is built. Wizards simply have more options, and the role of "stab it until the rest of the party kills it but avoid dying" is easily covered by a divine character, especially since a druid in wildshape is far harder to bypass than a fighter in fullplate.

mikeejimbo
2009-11-26, 12:41 AM
even V, horribly optimized yet still viable as he is, would most likely have mopped the proverbial floor with his paladin behind

Wait...when did Vaarsuvius fight O-Chuul?

Roland St. Jude
2009-11-26, 01:26 AM
What I wouldn't give for an Ignore List for threads.

Sheriff of Moddingham: Or even better, a lock button. :smallsmile:

This thread is out of place and maybe trolling. It's under review and won't be back. Thread locked.