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SSGoW
2009-11-22, 03:11 AM
Would a fighter using cleave be able to mark both enemies that got hit by the attack?

Inyssius Tor
2009-11-22, 03:42 AM
Nope. You don't make an attack roll against the secondary target, you just deal damage to him.


COMBAT CHALLENGE
In combat, itís dangerous to ignore a fighter. Every time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark that target.

SSGoW
2009-11-22, 04:43 AM
Wizards describes cleave as

"You hit one enemy, then cleave into another."

You seem to be attacking the second enemy by using the first ones defense.. since you are damaging the second enemy that must mean you attcked it (auto hit).

Although personally i wont be using cleave a friend of mine will be playing one in a game i'm running and i wanted to get some opinions on this before i actually make a decision.

tcrudisi
2009-11-22, 05:24 AM
Auto-hits are not attacks. For the Fighter to be able to mark a target, he must attack it. There are ways to get multiple attacks in a round (play a Dragonborn and use the Dragon Breath, or even something like the level 1 encounter power Passing Attack). However, with Cleave you only make one attack roll -- you can choose to mark that target, but not the second one since you do not actually attack it, you just deal damage.

The distinction is important, since there is a level 5 daily power that puts you in a stance where you auto-damage all adjacent enemies... since that is an auto-hit without an attack roll, you are not able to mark every adjacent enemy.

SSGoW
2009-11-22, 05:58 AM
Well even with that power he is attacking them by using a power, he is just not rolling an attack roll... The marking feature does not say that he has to make an attack roll only that he has to attack.

By using that daily power he is setting up the melee attack and they are litterally running into it.

Sir Homeslice
2009-11-22, 06:02 AM
There's a distinction between attacking and hitting.

Cleave's autodamage is an autohit, and not an attack, because it doesn't roll for an attack, thus there is no marking.

Nightson
2009-11-22, 06:16 AM
Did you roll a d20 to try and hit the target? If so you can choose to mark him/it, if you did not, you cannot mark him/it. That's just how it works.

SSGoW
2009-11-22, 06:27 AM
to hit you have to strike a strike is an attack.. auto or no, hit or not

also again it doesn;t say attack roll only an attack

also one could say that the power uses someone else's defenses for the second target therefor he did attack and did hit the secondary target?

Faleldir
2009-11-22, 06:57 AM
Read the power box more carefully. It says "Target: one creature". You are only attacking one creature.

The New Bruceski
2009-11-22, 07:13 AM
to hit you have to strike a strike is an attack.. auto or no, hit or not

also again it doesn;t say attack roll only an attack

also one could say that the power uses someone else's defenses for the second target therefor he did attack and did hit the secondary target?

You are confusing the word "attack" with the game term. Cleave's target is one creature, even if another creature takes damage from it.

Thajocoth
2009-11-22, 10:10 AM
An "attack" in the game's terms is a d20 roll to hit a target. It's part of the game's vocabulary, even if what the word technically means in English is a bit wider than that.

Guinea Anubis
2009-11-22, 10:13 AM
Wizards describes cleave as

"You hit one enemy, then cleave into another."


That is just flavor text and means nothing when it comes to game play. You can only mark something you have made an attack roll against. Page 26 of the PHB lists attack rolls as attack.

Ent
2009-11-22, 11:36 AM
SSGoW, you seem to really be pulling for it to be able to mark two targets, so if it's a game you're DMing, houserule it; in the rules though, it doesn't.

Gametime
2009-11-22, 11:49 AM
There's no reason to start a thread to ask a rules question if you aren't going to believe anyone who doesn't tell you what you want to hear. (If that sounds harsh, sorry, but I couldn't figure out a better way to phrase it.)

As others have said, if you want it to mark two targets, houserule it. There's nothing wrong with that. If you're just looking for some at-will fighter power to mark two targets, look at Dual Strike from Martial Power. If you're actually concerned with what the rules allow, then no, you can't mark two targets with the attack. Attack has a very specific meaning in the rules. Cleave's secondary damage doesn't qualify.

Shardan
2009-11-22, 01:57 PM
They're right. you have to actually make an attack roll, not deal damage.

Dragonborn breath weapon and Earth Genasi ratial power both work to multi-mark but cleave works no better than giving him a damaging aura. Damage does not equal attack.

Townopolis
2009-11-22, 02:48 PM
Incidentally, Dual Strike also does not allow you to mark two targets. Both attacks have to target the same person. This is the one thing separating Dual Strike and the ranger's Twin Strike.

It seems to have been decided by the designers that letting a fighter mark two targets with an at-will would be unbalanced.

However, that shouldn't stop you from houseruling it into your game, if you want to.

Gralamin
2009-11-22, 02:52 PM
Incidentally, Dual Strike also does not allow you to mark two targets. Both attacks have to target the same person. This is the one thing separating Dual Strike and the ranger's Twin Strike.

It seems to have been decided by the designers that letting a fighter mark two targets with an at-will would be unbalanced.

However, that shouldn't stop you from houseruling it into your game, if you want to.

Dual Strike must target two different enemies, not the same one.

Sir Homeslice
2009-11-22, 03:03 PM
Incidentally, Dual Strike also does not allow you to mark two targets.

Errata begs to differ.

erikun
2009-11-22, 08:39 PM
Would a fighter using cleave be able to mark both enemies that got hit by the attack?
This was a question asked a lot when 4e originally came out, and it was pretty clearly specified: the Fighter can only mark targets which he rolled an attack roll against. The secondary target (which takes damage as an effect) is not marked.

Of course, you can run it differently in your game, but RAI says the target taking the auto-damage is not marked.

Decoy Lockbox
2009-11-22, 11:40 PM
I thought this was one of the first issues addressed when the game came out?

Townopolis
2009-11-23, 12:02 PM
Errata begs to differ.
Interesting.

dsmiles
2009-11-23, 12:14 PM
Read the power box more carefully. It says "Target: one creature". You are only attacking one creature.

This is the point here...you are only attacking one target.

Artanis
2009-11-23, 01:03 PM
*whistles innocently* Nothing to see here, I totally didn't make an ass of myself. No siree, not one bit :smallredface:

Inyssius Tor
2009-11-23, 01:17 PM
No it doesn't.

Check the errata and see for yourself. Dual Strike has a primary attack and a secondary attack. The primary attack is with your main-hand weapon against one creature, and then you make the secondary attack with your off-hand weapon against one creature other than the primary target.

tl;dr version: the errata says they have to be against different targets.

That's what he said. Yes, it does beg to differ. What it begs to differ from is the statement Sir Homeslice quoted, that being Lordsmoothe's assertion that Dual Strike can't mark multiple targets.

Artanis
2009-11-23, 01:22 PM
I totally misread that. I'll just go back and fix that... :smallredface:

BlckDv
2009-11-23, 04:18 PM
I'll note a much more elegant way of clarifying this;

You can take a feat to mark the creature who takes the auto-damage from your cleave, it it was already marked, there would be no use for this feat.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-23, 04:49 PM
Wizards describes cleave as

"You hit one enemy, then cleave into another."

Wizards could also have described Cleave as: "You hit one enemy in such a gruesome fashion that another one wets himself in fear."

or, "You bonk one enemy on the head, and he flails around wildly, slapping one of his allies in the nose."

or even, "You kick an enemy in the stomach, while a passing swallow drops a coconut on another enemy nearby."

Fluff if fluff. Crunch is not fluff. Note the difference.

MCerberus
2009-11-24, 10:29 AM
Also regarding fighter marks: attacks granted by the ability do not allow you to stop movement or add your wisdom to the attack due to the 'immediate interrupt' tag by RAW, correct?

Kurald Galain
2009-11-24, 10:48 AM
Also regarding fighter marks: attacks granted by the ability do not allow you to stop movement or add your wisdom to the attack due to the 'immediate interrupt' tag by RAW, correct?

Correct. A combat challenge attack is not an opportunity attack, and only the latter aborts move actions and gets a wisdom bonus.

Yakk
2009-11-24, 10:52 AM
Yes. Fighter's zone control is two fold.

On OAs (which anyone gets), fighters are better because of the wis bonus and stopping movement.

If the target is marked, the fighter can also (1/round) attack on a shift or if they make an attack that doesn't include the fighter. These aren't normally openings that most folks could exploit -- but the fighter is badass.

But not so badass that the Fighter can both exploit the opening, and get the bonuses they get on OAs.

So you can get away from a fighter with a shift -> move, forcing the fighter to follow you.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-24, 11:04 AM
Also relevant is that because a CC attack is not an opportunity action, you can do both.

For instance, if a monster tries to walk by you, you can stop him short with an OA. This marks the monster, so if the monster then decides to whack your ally, you get to counter-whack with CC. That's one of the reasons why fighters are so cool.

jmbrown
2009-11-24, 11:04 AM
[QUOTE=Kurald Galain;7369204]
or even, "You kick an enemy in the stomach, while a passing swallow drops a coconut on another enemy nearby."
[QUOTE]

Why is a swallow carrying a... you know what? Never mind.

AtwasAwamps
2009-11-24, 11:05 AM
or even, "You kick an enemy in the stomach, while a passing swallow drops a coconut on another enemy nearby."



This is now how cleave works in any game I run.

ashmanonar
2009-11-24, 01:29 PM
Wizards could also have described Cleave as: "You hit one enemy in such a gruesome fashion that another one wets himself in fear."

or, "You bonk one enemy on the head, and he flails around wildly, slapping one of his allies in the nose."

or even, "You kick an enemy in the stomach, while a passing swallow drops a coconut on another enemy nearby."

Fluff if fluff. Crunch is not fluff. Note the difference.

I'm going to be using the swallow dropping a coconut explanation from now on.

"Aaand another minion dead. Man, those swallows are everywhere lately!"
"...Aren't coconuts tropical? What are they doing in Medieval England?"

dsmiles
2009-11-24, 02:08 PM
What kind of swallow, Eruopean or African?