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BenTheJester
2009-11-22, 06:33 PM
Are there any homebrew class(or prestige class) that focuses on poisons, and actually make them good?

I have seen most of wotc poison material, and, except for a few feats, it sucks. bad.

Inhuman Bot
2009-11-22, 06:40 PM
Are there any homebrew class(or prestige class) that focuses on poisons, and actually make them good?

I have seen most of wotc poison material, and, except for a few feats, it sucks. bad.

There's the assassin. Iron Kingdoms also has the combat alchemist, but it's not entirely focused on poison.

Fastmover
2009-11-22, 06:51 PM
I was thinking of a new poison build too. It was going to be Druid 5/Ninja 2.

Feats: Imp. Unarmed Strikes, Nat Spell, Combat Ref

Main spells: Bull's Str, Owl's Wis, Cat's Gr, Poison, Contagion

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-22, 06:53 PM
Isn't there a Poison Master prestige class in Drow of Underdark?

sambo.
2009-11-22, 08:21 PM
i'm playing a drow in a PbP campaign and have been using the Craft: Poisonmaking skill to great effect brewing juiced up DC20 SleepyJus.

works a treat against things that aren't immune to poison.

unfortunatly, it's also rather expensive to up the DC of the poison.

Danin
2009-11-22, 08:35 PM
With a successful handle animal check and a craft poison making check you extract a number of doses a day out of a creature with poison. This on an animal companion is alright.

Combine that with Master Poisoner (DotUD), Poison Expert & Master Poisoner (CS), and you have a viable character.

taltamir
2009-11-22, 08:39 PM
the problem doesn't seem to be the classes's inability to use poison, but the poisons themselves.

Poisons are either ridiculously nonthreatening (so, I take 1d2 dex damage? lol!), or unbelievably expensive (a million gold per dose you say?).

If your class can craft an uber poison, it is better off SELLING it for the afore mentioned million gold than using it for whatever mission it is currently on.
Unless you make some contrived reason why the class can't sell the poison.

The solution really is to houserule a new poison system.

Zergrusheddie
2009-11-22, 09:11 PM
The solution really is to houserule a new poison system.

To this, I completely agree.

Poisons are extraordinarily expensive and even the good ones are not that scary by the time you can afford to use them. Black Lotus Extract costs 4,500 gold per dose and does 3d6 con damage initial and secondary. This is extremely deadly, but at a DC20 Fort Save and 4,500 gold I wouldn't want to actually use it. By the time that you would consider using them, you are likely fighting Demons/Devils who are immune.

Zaq
2009-11-22, 09:25 PM
the problem doesn't seem to be the classes's inability to use poison, but the poisons themselves.

Poisons are either ridiculously nonthreatening (so, I take 1d2 dex damage? lol!), or unbelievably expensive (a million gold per dose you say?).

If your class can craft an uber poison, it is better off SELLING it for the afore mentioned million gold than using it for whatever mission it is currently on.
Unless you make some contrived reason why the class can't sell the poison.

The solution really is to houserule a new poison system.

I still say that Poison Use should be a skill, representing basic and habitual usage of poisons. This would be in addition to actually buying "normal" (i.e. currently existing) poisons and smearing them on your knife. If you have ranks in Poison Use, it would be assumed that you have various poisons of varying strength, much the way that you're assumed to have herbs and bandages if you have ranks in Heal. You'd make a Poison Use check to envenom a blade; you would choose what kind of effect it had (HP damage, fatigue/sickness/etc., stat penalties, stat damage, or whatever) ahead of time. Your skill result would determine the strength and the save DC. You could accept a penalty to your check and either use the skill as a swift action (allowing multiple poisons per combat) or have the poison linger after more than one hit.

Unfortunately, I have no idea how to implement this in a balanced way. I'm not sure what would be an appropriate DC for what kind of effect. I'm very bad at homebrewing, and I know my limitations. However, if I were tasked with homebrewing a way to make poison useful in 3.5, this is how I would start.

BenTheJester
2009-11-22, 09:34 PM
I think I'll get on the case, I'll try to homebrew a whole class.

I'll focus on giving it supernatural abilities, that replicate the effects of various poisons.

That way, the class would be able to use poisons free while not being sellable.

deuxhero
2009-11-22, 09:42 PM
Isn't "having bandages" a healing kit? I could go with making poisons some fieldmade cocktail of chemicals instead of items you carry around, but I don't think you meant that.

Zaq
2009-11-22, 09:46 PM
Isn't "having bandages" a healing kit? I could go with making poisons some fieldmade cocktail of chemicals instead of items you carry around, but I don't think you meant that.

You can make a Heal check without having a healing kit. The kit just gives a +2. As I see it, anyone with ranks in Heal probably has the most basic tools available (hence why you can make a Heal check without the kit), but the kit contains proper anesthetics, good bandages of different sizes, and all that good stuff. You can make a perfectly good Heal check without having ever seen a healing kit.

It doesn't make a perfect amount of sense, but it's really more of a mechanical thing than anything else. It's no worse than a spell component pouch, in my mind.

Acanous
2009-11-22, 09:51 PM
There is a (Small) penalty for not having a healing kit, and a (small) bonus for having one. The difference between having one and not is about 6 points in a Heal check. You're assumed to have enough things on you to "Make due" in order to use your heal skill.

The same thing for poison use could be done, not even that difficult. Make a 15 the base DC for poisoning a blade (Which deals 1 extra point of damage) and have 20 be 1D6. Points above 20 start having the option of dealing stat damage instead. (Maximum 2D6 at 30) with the various extra effects being penalties to the check. Secondary damage would be another 10 points. Lingering would propably be something like 5 points a round.

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-23, 07:50 AM
I would love to see a skill for poison.

dsmiles
2009-11-23, 08:34 AM
Have you looked into Pale Masters: The Poisoner's Handbook?
I believe that it's Green Ronin.

Person_Man
2009-11-23, 09:58 AM
This thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0) is dedicated to the subject. The key takeaway of the thread is that anyone with a few ranks in Handle Animal and Craft (Poison Making) can milk a poison producing creature to get a free dose (Drow of the Underdark). You can also create plant based poisons with Psionic Minor Creation (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Psionic_Minor_Creation), which you can access via Expanded Knowledge (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Expanded_Knowledge) or with 1 level of Psion (Shaper).

So you don't necessarily need a class dedicated to it. In fact, overspecialization should be avoided, since so many creatures are immune to it.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-23, 10:11 AM
The problem with a skill for poison is that skills for attacks is horribly unbalanced in most cases.

Telonius
2009-11-23, 10:16 AM
Are there any homebrew class(or prestige class) that focuses on poisons, and actually make them good?

I have seen most of wotc poison material, and, except for a few feats, it sucks. bad.

Why yes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89314), if I do say so myself. :smallbiggrin:

FMArthur
2009-11-23, 10:46 AM
This thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0) is dedicated to the subject. The key takeaway of the thread is that anyone with a few ranks in Handle Animal and Craft (Poison Making) can milk a poison producing creature to get a free dose (Drow of the Underdark). You can also create plant based poisons with Psionic Minor Creation (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Psionic_Minor_Creation), which you can access via Expanded Knowledge (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Expanded_Knowledge) or with 1 level of Psion (Shaper).

So you don't necessarily need a class dedicated to it. In fact, overspecialization should be avoided, since so many creatures are immune to it.

You don't even need a single level in any psionic classes to get Psionic Minor Creation; just the Hidden Talent feat. :smallsmile:

Akal Saris
2009-11-23, 11:06 AM
I like that homebrew PrC, Telonius. I'll add a link to it in the Poison Handbook if you don't mind.

To the OP, the most poison-focused PrC in official WoTC material that I know of is the Black Dog, from the Dragonmarked sourcebook, if you can't find any homebrews you like. But you're right - most official stuff dealing with poison is pretty darned weak.

BenTheJester
2009-11-23, 11:09 AM
So you don't necessarily need a class dedicated to it. In fact, overspecialization should be avoided, since so many creatures are immune to it.

Oh yes! I totally didn't think about that!



....Come on. Do you really think that I won't give it an ability that ignores the target's poison immunity, in same way the Dread Witch(or was it Nightmare Spinner? I always confuse the 2) ignores enemy's immunity to fear?

Zaq
2009-11-23, 11:53 AM
The problem with a skill for poison is that skills for attacks is horribly unbalanced in most cases.

You're telling this to the guy who plays a friggin' Truenamer. I'm well aware that it's very difficult to balance damage-causing skills. That's why I've said outright that I have no idea how to balance it. Still, I think that someone with a good head for homebrew could pull it off.

The closest analogue, I think, would be Iaijutsu Focus, which only really becomes "broken" when you add that prestige class (Iaijutsu Master?) that lets you add CHA to every die of damage. And that's not really Iaijutsu Focus's fault. I think something similar could be done for Poison Use.

Person_Man
2009-11-23, 11:54 AM
Oh yes! I totally didn't think about that!

....Come on. Do you really think that I won't give it an ability that ignores the target's poison immunity, in same way the Dread Witch(or was it Nightmare Spinner? I always confuse the 2) ignores enemy's immunity to fear?

So, you're going to have a way to effect constructs, undead, elementals, etc, with poison? What will the fluff be for that, given that most enemies immune to poison have no skin, blood, or digestive system? How will you deal with the fact that most poisons deal ability damage, and many creatures that are immune to poison have no Con or Cha score?

Zaq
2009-11-23, 12:02 PM
So, you're going to have a way to effect constructs, undead, elementals, etc, with poison? What will the fluff be for that, given that most enemies immune to poison have no skin, blood, or digestive system? How will you deal with the fact that most poisons deal ability damage, and many creatures that are immune to poison have no Con or Cha score?

Make the ability to pierce poison immunity (Su). Then it's magic, so it can do whatever the hell you want it to do.

The Manly Man
2009-11-23, 12:58 PM
So, you're going to have a way to effect constructs, undead, elementals, etc, with poison? What will the fluff be for that, given that most enemies immune to poison have no skin, blood, or digestive system? How will you deal with the fact that most poisons deal ability damage, and many creatures that are immune to poison have no Con or Cha score?
Libris Mortis (I think) had positoxins - poison substitutes that worked against undead and undead only. They were expensive (big surprise) and mostly worked against the mental stats of intelligent undead. It's not a big leap to adapt that.

Elemental poisons are easy enough to conceive too - just think of it as more of an alchemical process, with liquid versions of cold, fire and the like working to weaken the constitution (or other stat) of the opposing elemental.

I have a little more difficulty coming up with something that would affect constructs though. But not every class has to have an answer to every situation. Then they would be wizards.

BenTheJester
2009-11-23, 05:52 PM
So, you're going to have a way to effect constructs, undead, elementals, etc, with poison? What will the fluff be for that, given that most enemies immune to poison have no skin, blood, or digestive system? How will you deal with the fact that most poisons deal ability damage, and many creatures that are immune to poison have no Con or Cha score?

In the same way a Dread Witch can make characters without even the notion of what fear is run for their lives

sambo.
2009-11-23, 06:21 PM
I think something similar could be done for Poison Use.

there's a Green Ronin book: Plot And Poison, Guidebook to the Drow.

it contains a rundown on a Craft: Poisonmaking skill which is pretty good. it allows you to craft poison of increased save DC, at an exponentially rising cost in raw materials.

and not all poisons are junk. Drow sleepyjus is very powerful stuff, IF it takes effect quickly.

taltamir
2009-11-23, 10:50 PM
So, you're going to have a way to effect constructs, undead, elementals, etc, with poison? What will the fluff be for that, given that most enemies immune to poison have no skin, blood, or digestive system? How will you deal with the fact that most poisons deal ability damage, and many creatures that are immune to poison have no Con or Cha score?

undead / werecreatures: a poison with some silver in it, maybe some holy water mixed in.
construct: some anti-magical compounds.

If you make a class, don't make it SKILL based, make it CLASS LEVEL based.

Balancing things off of skill points is really terrible in DnD. At least on class level you can just equate it to caster level.

Akal Saris
2009-11-23, 10:56 PM
there's a Green Ronin book: Plot And Poison, Guidebook to the Drow.

it contains a rundown on a Craft: Poisonmaking skill which is pretty good. it allows you to craft poison of increased save DC, at an exponentially rising cost in raw materials.

and not all poisons are junk. Drow sleepyjus is very powerful stuff, IF it takes effect quickly.

I was very unimpressed by Plot and Poison with regards to the poisons in the book. If I recall, there was only one poison feat included (and inferior to the one in DoTU), 0 poison-related PrCs, and and the poisons in the book were nothing special.

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-24, 02:46 AM
Any poison use class, or the Master of Poison feat from DoTU.

Use ambush feats from DotU, poison feats from PHII and other Ambush Feats from dragon magazine to raise the poison DC by 8 and lower the opponent save by 4.

Use Complete Adventurer rules for poison crafting.

Dip in classes that lower save like Blackguard(sneak attack!) of Hexblade.

Use Ravages for fiends and Positoxins for Undead.

Have the casters debuff, or use UMD if rogue for debuff spells able to lower saves.

Be creative on the fly.