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Edwin
2009-11-25, 03:46 PM
Hello, playgrounders.

I was toying with the idea of making a cleric solely focused on the spellcasting aspect. That is, to hell with melee, turning, everything.

And thus, I am in need of a few particular good offensive spells, defensive spells (not clericzilla buffing), as well as feats, maybe a couple of nice prestige class options.

Two things I am also looking for is a way of reliable, hopefully all the time, making my touch attack spells ranged, so I can stay out of the fray - and, if there are any such things, a way of turning my now rather useless armor capabilities into something useful.

All books.

Narazil
2009-11-25, 03:49 PM
May I suggest looking at the Cloistered Cleric? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm) Trading the more melee-focused stuff for an extra domain (Knowledge), Lore and additional spells known.
It's more in line of a spellcasting Cleric, though it doesn't do much for your spells per say.

Edwin
2009-11-25, 03:52 PM
May I suggest looking at the Cloistered Cleric? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm) Trading the more melee-focused stuff for an extra domain (Knowledge), Lore and additional spells known.
It's more in line of a spellcasting Cleric, though it doesn't do much for your spells per say.

I was using that as the base, yes.

Note that I didn't ask for a base class though. :smallsmile:

Nohwl
2009-11-25, 04:14 PM
take a level dip in hierophant and get divine reach.

there was a list of useful spells for clerics in the handbook on brilliantgameologists.

link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0)

Edwin
2009-11-25, 04:18 PM
take a level dip in hierophant and get divine reach.

there was a list of useful spells for clerics in the handbook on brilliantgameologists.

link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0)

Except for the fact that it requires 7th level spells and taking a class that doesn't advance spells, that's about the best option I can think of, too.

The handbook might be a treat, though, thanks.

Nohwl
2009-11-25, 04:28 PM
losing one spellcasting level isn't too bad.

you could use reach spell, but that requires higher levels spell slots. dmm reach spell would work, but i don't know how much you want to use turn undead.

Edwin
2009-11-25, 04:34 PM
losing one spellcasting level isn't too bad.

you could use reach spell, but that requires higher levels spell slots. dmm reach spell would work, but i don't know how much you want to use turn undead.

I know, I was merely listing the drawbacks. Mostly for myself.

DMM: Reach spell would work fine, except that then my reaching spells would be infinitely finite, and I'm loathe to abuse nightsticks. Not that I could get away with it, at any rate.

Eldariel
2009-11-25, 04:59 PM
Divine Spell Power allows you to convert your Turn Undead attempts into stronger spells. Divine Metamagic: Quicken, Chain, Persistent or similar works too.

Either way, Domains are the key. Spontaneous Domain Casting [PHBII] in some versatile Domain such as Spell is a very good idea. Another domain with solid utility spells is a good idea; I personally like Trickery, Time, Celerity, and such. As for good defensive spells, there's a bunch in PHB. Offense is sparser, but still around.


So yeah, from PHB (SoL = Save-or-Lose, SoS = Save-or-Suck, SoD = Save-or-Die):

Offense:
Level 1
Cause Fear: Nice Will Save-or-Lose as long as the HD limit isn't a problem; unfortunately single-target. Close range.
Command: Nice Will Save-or-Suck. Again, though, single-target. Close range.

Level 2
Hold Person: Humanoid SoL. Handy. Medium range.
Shatter: Destroy weapons, armor, etc. Nice combination with Dispels and such. Close range.
Silence: Caster Will SoL, or no-save effect if you have some control effects to prevent opponent from leaving the covered area. Also, nice readied action to screw spellcasting. Long range (!!) multi-target.
Sound Burst: Meh damage, with Fort-or-Stun. If you have someone to CDG the stunned guy, it's alright. The damage isn't the reason to pick it. Close range multi-target.
Spiritual Weapon: It's a decent damage spell, especially since Cleric BAB is pretty good; it'll keep attacking for effectively the entire combat and it takes only a move action to redirect.

Level 3
Bestow Curse: Will SoS. Clerics have lots of these. Good for debuffing Planar Bound creatures or such. Touch range.
Blindness/Deafness: Blindness is an excellent debuff. Fort SoS basically. Medium range.
Dispel Magic: Magic is very powerful, so ability to stop magic is absolutely incredible. Disable Fighter's gear, remove buffbots buffs, save your allies from variety of SoLs, infinitely powerful. Medium range multi-target.
Invisibility Purge: Well, not really offense, but still. 5'/level range.
Searing Light: Deals crap damage to living or slightly less crap damage to undead. Yuck. Medium range ray.

Level 4
Dimensional Anchor: Well, only way you'll ever kill those outsiders. Medium range.
Dismissal: Basically amounts to a limited Will SoD. Close range. It's nice 'cause you can make it notably harder than normal spell of yours to resist by using stuff the target hates with the spell.
Poison: Fort Save-or-BeHurtBad. Meh. Touch range. Yuck.

Level 5
Greater Command: Multitarget Command that lasts until they make a save. Pretty useful, if high level. Close range, 30' between victims, mind-affecting.
Plane Shift: Everyone knows of the spells transportation capabilities, but as long as your target cannot Plane Shift, sending someone to say...Positive Energy Plane is a very good way of killing people. Basically a Will SoD with Touch Range.
Slay Living: Fort SoD with some consolation damage. Touch.
Symbol of Pain: Symbols are fun. Paint a bunch of 'em on some item, reveal it and watch opposition roll saves. Rubber balls are pretty nice, for example. Your armor is a good place too. This one is practically a SoS.
Symbol of Sleep: See above. Nice little slumberparty here. Though Mind-Affecting begins to be a problem on these levels.

Level 6
Banishment: Like Dismissal, except stronger.
Blade Barrier: Meh, it's a solid battlefield morphing ability that's also Ref-or-Take-Some-Damage. Not bad. Medium range.
Greater Dispel Magic: See Dispel Magic.
Harm: Fort or Take Damage. Meh. Fine for e.g. channeling tho. Touch.
Symbol of Fear: See Symbol of Pain. Basically SoL version. Annoyingly Mind-Affecting.
Symbol of Persuasion: See Symbol of Pain. Basically SoL version. Annoyingly Mind-Affecting.
Undeath to Death: Great for killing undead. Medium range 40' bunch.

Level 7
Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos: Boost your caster level and world will tremble. No-save death or at least be screwed depending on your CL. Only SR can save people here (and with your buffed CL, rarely).
Destruction: Fort SoD. Close range. Nice 10d6 consolation damage.
Dimensional Lock: Like Dimensional Anchor, except gotta somehow restrict opponent's movement, but it offers no save.
Symbol of Stunning: See Symbol of Pain, SoL version.
Symbol of Weakness: See Symbol of Pain, SoS version (most characters can't carry their stuff after that Fort-damage).

Level 8
Earthquake: A rather versatile offense spell that can be used to lock down opponents or such depending on terrain. Damage isn't impressive but the conditions it can impose, often without save, are. Also nicely stops activity while it's going. If DM says the save stops the Pinned-condition too, it becomes much worse.
Fire Storm: Deals a bunch of damage. Meh.
Symbol of Death: See Symbol of Pain, SoD version.
Symbol of Insanity: See Symbol of Pain, Will SoD version. Meh at mind-affecting.

Level 9
Miracle: It does everything, most without XP cost. Just about the best level 9 spell in the game.
Gate: Solars are good.
Implosion: Boom Boom. Kinda expensive, but at least it can kill multiple folks.
Field Alteration + Ally Generation:
Level 1
Obscuring Mist: Nice way to stop annoying targeted spells, archery and such. Gives melee full miss chance thoo. Limits yourself too tho. Personal range.
Summon Monster I: See the Malconvoker Handbook.

Level 2
Darkness: Older version of Darkness. Touch range, can toss the object or such.
Summon Monster II: See the Malconvoker Handbook.

Level 3
Animate Dead: Material components are kinda meh. Eternally usable and faithful underlings are pretty handy though, if you can afford them.
Daylight: Mostly when dealing with Underdark races, Undead and such. Touch like Darkness.
Deeper Darkness: Sorta like Darkness. Unfortunately, it's not as Dark as it should be. Fogs >>> Darkness. Touch like Darkness.
Stone Shape: I don't honestly need to state in how many ways morphing stone can be useful, do I? Touch.
Summon Monster III: See the Malconvoker Handbook.
Wind Wall: Pretty nice especially in larger conflicts where large squads of archers are a concern. There are pretty few ways archers can by RAW shoot through this, though you could argue that big enough bows and force projectiles would.

Level 4
Control Water: Very nice when water is available for drowning places, killing waterbreathing creatures in shallow waters and such. Just, useful. Long range.
Giant Vermin: You shouldn't really bother with anything less than Gargantuans, but with CL buffs those are available pretty quickly and particularly Colossal Scorpion is very efficient even against CR 20 challenges as long as the area is thus that they cannot just fly away (you can help with that); they have very high Attack-stats and the poisons are extremely potent.
Lesser Planar Ally: Solid allies, even if it's expensive to call. Try to call 'em when it falls under the "strongly ties to creature's ethos"; that's free and the XP cost isn't really that major. And Outsiders are pretty darn good allies.
Summon Monster IV: See the Malconvoker Handbook.

Level 5
Insect Plague: Swarms are hardy, but unfortunately not very damaging at this point anymore. The Distraction-function is handy, but beyond that it's not very good. Long range tho.
Summon Monster V: See the Malconvoker Handbook.
Wall of Stone: One of Wizard's best battlefield control spells is no worse for Cleric. Isolate enemies, buy time, block entries, make death prisons, whatever. Reflex if used to encase people. Medium range.

Level 6
Animate Object: Unfortunately Animated Objects have horrible BAB and such so they don't hit much. The special attacks are somewhat usable tho. Generally best with Permanency. Medium range.
Antilife Shell: A very strong defensive buff, here because you can morph the battlefield with it. Living creatures simply can't approach the area around you. NO SAVE! 10' radius.
Create Undead: Some of the undead are very useful. This is an expensive spell, but as the undead can multiply, provided it's not against your alignment, this can be very very handy.
Planar Ally: See Lesser Planar Ally.
Summon Monster VI: See the Malconvoker Handbook.

Level 7
Control Weather: Slow to cast, but great for demolishing armies, cities and such. Not quite as strong as the 5th level Druid-spell Control Winds, but much more versatile.
Repulsion: Like Antilife Shell vs. anything, but with Will-save to negate. I don't like it nearly as much.
Summon Monster VII: See the Malconvoker Handbook.

Level 8
Antimagic Field: Magic's good, all that jazz. Also, Initiate of Mystra makes this the most one-sided, unfair spell ever. 10' radius (suggest Widening; see Rules Compendium for relevant stuff regarding rules on this, it always confuses people).
Create Greater Undead: See Create Undead.
Summon Monster VIII: See the Malconvoker Handbook.

Level 9
Miracle: It does everything, most without XP cost. Just about the best level 9 spell in the game.
Gate: Solars are good.
Summon Monster IX: See the Malconvoker Handbook.
Defense + Buff:
Level 1
Bless: Not amazing, but every bonus is a bonus. The more characters, the better.
Endure Elements: Eh, obvious utility.
Magic Stone: Handy buff for Sling-users. Note that sling is a solid ranged level 1 weapon for high Str types, being quite light, almost free and adding Str to damage.
Magic Weapon: Handy buff for anyone. If a bit small.
Protection from Alignment: Great buff, stops all mind control in addition to solid Deflection/Resistance.
Sanctuary: Obvious utility, you aren't attacking anyways, so... Also can be used to protect another, who's about to go down.
Shield of Faith: Touch-spell that grants nice Deflection-bonus to AC.

Level 2
Aid: Mostly just Bless with few additional Temp HP. Pretty weak beyond the first levels.
Align Weapon: Occasionally absolutely crucial with early opponents packing some pesky DRs.
Bull's Strength & al.: Handy early on.
Resist Energy: Great vs. casters and energy-based creatures and just environment.

Level 3
Magic Circle against Alignment: Like Protection, except area-of-effect and stops summoned creatures and such. Handy. 10' area.
Magic Vestment: One of the best buffs in the game, allows you to, especially in conjuction with Animated Shields and such, give everyone decent AC. Use with caster level boosters for early +5s all day.
Meld into Stone: Fine "Invisibility"-substitute that's not trumped by most spells. It's hard to detect your presence without heavy magical scanning.
Prayer: Short-duration Bless (with Luck-bonus tho) and a penalty to enemies. Meh.
Protection from Energy: Like Resist Energy except complete immunity to certain threshold. I prefer Resist Energy though sometimes, when taking huge blazing balls of fire, this is better.
Water Breathing: Too obvious.
Water Walk: Yeah.

Level 4
Air Walk: Obvious. Notably, you still walk so stuff depending on jumping and such should work normally. Nice duration, though not 1h/level. Touch.
Imbue with Spell Ability: Divine Favor is a nice one, for example. Personal spells in general.
Greater Magic Weapon: Like Magic Vestment, except for weapons. The nice part is that Clerics can buff their CL like crazy so you'll have +5s in the mid-teens. Close range.
Spell Immunity: Stuff such as Enervation and such is very solid to protect people from. Touch.

Level 5
Disrupting Weapon: Kills undead. Handy in Undead-heavy scenarios. With iteratives, it amounts to a whole ton of SoDs vs. Undead. Touch-range.
Spell Resistance: 12+CL is a nice amount, without cap, especially for a Cleric. It's Touch so it can be used to ward the entire party and it's nice 10 min/level (if it only were 1 hour/level...).
True Seeing: Too obvious.

Level 6
Mass Bull's Strength & al.: When you have hordes of servants/underlings/whatever, these can be worthwhile. Party will just buy gear.
Heroes' Feast: Extend it for 24-hour Fear-immunity and Morale-bonus to Hit and Will-saves. One is enough to feed the entire party and then some. Should be staple once you get it given the DCs of the fear auras some creatures have.
Wind Walk: Kinda like your version of Teleport. Nice travel-spell if actual Teleportation is not available.
Word of Recall: Solid replication of one function of Teleportation. Nice overall.

Level 7
Ethereal Jaunt: Decent escape spell tho only 1 round/level and Personal.
Refuge: Nice "Oh ****"-Contingency to give to e.g. party Rogue or someone else bound to get into trouble alone.

Level 8
Cloak of Chaos/Holy Aura/Shield of Law/Unholy Aura: Decent defensive alignment-buffs, though they unfortunately don't stack with common protective items. There's still the "successful attack requires will-save vs. Confusion" and multi-targeting going on for it tho. Again, very solid if you have unequipped underlings.
Greater Spell Immunity: Good for the same reason Spell Immunity is good.

Level 9
Astral Projection: You pay some for effective immortality, especially combined with Plane Shift. Basically, you create a clone of yourself, for which dying doesn't make any difference. It's great how Plane Shift is a level 5 spell for Clerics. Multitarget.
Miracle: It does everything, most without XP cost. Just about the best level 9 spell in the game.
Etherealness: Handy for bypassing places and spying on things and killing ethereal issues and so on. And for staying out. I don't like spending level 9 slots on this tho.

Not bothering with Divinations and the like since they're so bloody obvious. Non-PHB adds nice stuff that I'm not in the mood to list right now, but try the Cleric Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0) for a somewhat more narrow, but complete list.

EDIT: Finished the lists with some examples. PHB-only, but should serve its purpose.

Eldariel
2009-11-25, 06:24 PM
Alright, I finished PHB list for variety of spells to the three basic caster roles (though no divinations, healing and such yet). I might or might not try to find time to go through splatbooks.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-11-25, 06:40 PM
Archivist (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) would actually be an excellent choice. You'd get a lot more offensive spell choices (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872558/Lowest_level_versions_of_spells) and stronger spellcasting overall. For prestige classes I'd recommend Divine Oracle 4, Sacred Exorcist if you want turning, and ten levels of Contemplative. Thaumaturgist is also a decent choice if you want to be better at summoning, plus at character level 12 you can get a Ghaele as your planar cohort.

Edwin
2009-11-26, 12:11 AM
I suppose I need to clear things up a bit more.

Anything PHB, DMG and such, I've got that part nailed pretty good. I am mostly looking for suggestions from the more obscure books.

Spontaneous Domains is something I've already taken a look at, and I'm thinking about it.

As for Archivist - I don't know. I am not sure I want to start buying my scrolls like I do when I play a wizard, and besides, it looses that priestly feel that cleric has, which makes the concept a bit weird. Having both Cleric, Druid, Paladin and just about any divine spell is kind of nice, though.

But, thanks for the suggestions.

ex cathedra
2009-11-26, 12:16 AM
Non-phb?

Darkbolt [LoM/SpC/obscure FR book] :
in all of its various incarnations, it's essentially one or more rays that do damage and force a save vs daze. Daze is good.

Moonbolt [SpC] :
Obscene strength damage, with metamagic. It also always hits, according to its description.

There are others, but I've been particularly effective with those two.

Saintheart
2009-11-26, 01:22 AM
Also, if you've got one Domain that sucks for strong spells, consider the Divine Magician alternative class feature from Complete Arcane (IIRC). This is basically "Create your own domain" -- trade out one of your domains and its domain power in exchange for access to a nominated arcane spell at each level. Although the schools aren't fantastic, it gives you access to some cute stuff like Ray of Enfeeblement and what looks like a pretty potent debuff: Ray of Exhaustion. -6 to opponent's STR and DEX, FTW!

If you're going with Ray/Reach, be sure to whack Zen Archery in there. WIS to ranged attack rolls for a ranged cleric is just gold.

Also consider a level dip in Divine Disciple (Forgotten Realms campaign setting). Anyone want an extra domain at level 1 and lose no spellcasting levels? Er, yes, please. :smallsmile:

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 01:28 AM
I like the Inquisition domain, as well.

Some turning is good. One Nightstick, a 12 Cha, and 1 Extra Turning Feat selected is 12 turn attempts.

With +1 level meta, that's 6 spells. Extend, Silent, or Still are three I like.
With +2 level meta, that's 4 spells. Empower is a solid choice here, as is reach, and Fell Drain.
With +3 level meta, that's 3 spells.
With +4 level meta, that's 2 spells. Quicken is the obvious here. One more Extra turning would get a third.

Still, most can be done with a Meta rod. Then, you can DMM AND use a meta rod for another.

Yes, it's finite. Yes, it's still useful for a spot add on.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-11-26, 03:48 AM
You could make a powerful Shadowcraft Mage build using Cleric. Go (Whisper) Gnome Cloistered Cleric 5/ Shadowcrafter 2/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Shadowcrafter 8, maybe throw in a level of Shadow Adept early on if you want. Take the Illusion and Gnome domains, get Heighten Spell before 6th level to qualify for your prestige classes via Heightened Shadow Well from Spell Compendium. Take Earth Sense and Earth Spell from Races of Stone, and use the spontaneous domain casting variant in PH2 for either domain. Get (Greater) Spell Focus: Illusion and even Ability Focus: Silent Image when you can. Residual Magic from Complete Mage has amazing synergy with your main schtick, and DMM: Heighten wouldn't be a bad idea.

If you don't know how the build works, read the Shadow Illusion class feature of Shadowcraft Mage in Races of Stone. Basically, you (spontaneously) cast a Heightened Silent Image and it mimics any Evocation or Conjuration (summoning or creation) spell of up to one level lower than it was heightened to, as though it were a shadow conjuration/evocation. Shadowcraft Mage 5 gives it +20% more reality, Shadowcrafter from Underdark gives it +10% and then +20% more reality specific to the school you mimic. Earth Spell improves its level by +1 and improves its caster level by how much it was heightened by, plus your domains give you another +2 caster level. Every one of these spells is still a Silent Image, so Greater Spell Focus: Illusion is +2 DC to all of them, and Ability Focus: Silent Image is another +2 DC. Heighten a Silent Image and use it as an offensive spell, then the next round cast Silent Image again from a 1st level spell slot and Residual Magic will Heighten it for free. Wear sandals made from stone slabs to always have Earth Spell active, even if you're flying.

Edwin
2009-11-26, 11:09 AM
Meh, illusion magic may not be what I'm looking for.

Pretty cool build, a tad bit complicated, though.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 11:28 AM
Meh, illusion magic may not be what I'm looking for.

Pretty cool build, a tad bit complicated, though.

It's not *REALLY* illusion. It uses shadow magic to create hyper-real spell effects. If you disbelieve them, they get MORE real and hurt more.

Edwin
2009-11-26, 11:36 AM
It's not *REALLY* illusion. It uses shadow magic to create hyper-real spell effects. If you disbelieve them, they get MORE real and hurt more.

Sure, but it's still technically illusion.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 11:41 AM
Sure, but it's still technically illusion.

Technically, perhaps. Mechanically, it's someone who punishes people who seek the truth. True Seeing is the worst spell to have active on you.

Shadow Miracles and Shadow summons make for some serious flash, and for those who DON'T see? You look no different from an evoker or a conjurer.

Edwin
2009-11-26, 11:47 AM
Technically, perhaps. Mechanically, it's someone who punishes people who seek the truth. True Seeing is the worst spell to have active on you.

Shadow Miracles and Shadow summons make for some serious flash, and for those who DON'T see? You look no different from an evoker or a conjurer.

True.

I was going for a priestly feel, like a village temple-cleric, though. In robes and everything.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-11-26, 12:31 PM
Actually, you could Shadow Illusion a Greater Mage Armor and cast Magic Vestment on it each day, rather than going for the standard Mithral Breastplate that most Cloistered Clerics would try to get. That allows you to go around in a more priestly outfit, instead of looking like some sort of armored protector of the village.

Due to the versatility of the build, you don't really have to prepare any offensive spells. Every one of your prepared spells can be a buff, divination, cure, remove blindness/curse/disease/etc., and other spells that would be more fitting of a priest whose primary role is to help his community. Any time you need an offensive spell, you can spontaneously convert one of those prepared spells into a Heightened Silent Image that mimics the offensive spell you want. It is a complicated build, but once you get a feel for it it becomes just as easy as any other spontaneous caster with a large list of available spells.