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dougch
2009-11-27, 03:56 AM
so my dm loves to homebrew. definitely very cool so here is a question for those who are able to give criticism better than i.
in my dm's campaign universe there exist a race of people. these people have a base -2 charisma,+2 con + an additional 4 other stats depending on there associated animal.
i am cool with that doesn't bug me at all

they wildshape as a druid of there level into a form befitting there animal type.

the race is only a L.A. 1 race.

and im wondering what somebody smarter would me would be able to offer as criticism to help kinda fix these natural shapeshifters.

Latronis
2009-11-27, 04:15 AM
step 1

details

step 2

see step 1

EDIT: That really wasn't supposed to be appear so harsh, but there's not much to say without some more specifics about it.

Temotei
2009-11-27, 03:12 PM
Latronis is right. We need the race in full form for a fair judgment. If the duration of the wild shape, for example, is only one round, then that's next to nothing. If it's just like the druid ability, and it stacks with the druid's wild shape uses for changes per day, then it might be a problem. Post the race, and we should be able to help more.

dougch
2009-11-27, 03:34 PM
this is the base race. ancestor feats are 1 of feats that allwo you to do soemthign little spiffy but not in a way usually a huge thing, other than the sanke ancestor feat addign int to init checks

Outsider (Incarnum): Landians are Outsiders with the Incarnum subtype.
∑ Shapechanger subtype: Landians are Outsiders with the Shapechanger subtype.
∑ +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma. Landians are resilient but their fundamental bestial nature detracts from their social interaction. Landians gain additional bonuses determined by their heritage: Kuma (Bear) (+4 Strength), Kitsune (Fox) (+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom), Taka (Hawk) (+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma), Raion (Lion) (+2 Strength, +2 Charisma), Hebi (Snake) (+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence), Tora (Tiger) (+2 Strength, +2 Dexterity), Ookami (Wolf) (+2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom)
∑ Medium: As medium creatures, Landians have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
∑ Landians base land speed is 30 ft.
∑ Darkvision: Landians can see in the dark up to 60 ft. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and Lunarians can function just fine with no light at all.
∑ Low-Light Vision: A Landians can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
∑ Wild Shape (Su): Landians can wild shape as a druid of their level, but only into an animal as determined by their heritage (Bear, Fox, Hawk, Lion, Snake, Tiger, or Wolf). Landians can take wild shape feats that they meet the requirements for as if they where a druid of their level.
∑ Bonus Feat at 1st Level: Landians gain one bonus Ancestral or Racial feat at 1st level.
∑ Essentia Pool: A Landianís Essentia Pool is permanently increased by 1. If he does not have an Essentia Pool, this trait grants him one with a single point of Essentia.
∑ Automatic Languages: Common and Eldar. Bonus Languages: Auran, Auquan, Draconic, Ignan, Terran, Sylvan.
∑ Favored Class: Samurai. A multiclass Landianís Samurai class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.
∑ Level Adjustment: +1, Landians are more powerful than the average race

i am trying to get some ideas on how to critique this race so that he accepts my thoughts that no matter the chassis adding a class ability to a race and having it scale with the race is just a bad bad idea

Temotei
2009-11-27, 03:51 PM
Kuma (Bear) (+4 Strength), Kitsune (Fox) (+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom), Taka (Hawk) (+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma), Raion (Lion) (+2 Strength, +2 Charisma), Hebi (Snake) (+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence), Tora (Tiger) (+2 Strength, +2 Dexterity), Ookami (Wolf) (+2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom)

I think the snake should get +4 Dexterity, fox should get +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, and wolf should get +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution. That might just be me though.


and Lunarians can function just fine with no light at all.

But landians can't. :smalltongue:


Favored Class: Samurai. A multiclass Landianís Samurai class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

I hope that's not the Complete Warrior samurai class.

The wild shape ability should be a druid-only ability, I think. It could easily be abused by druid landians, too, because the ability should stack with the druid's wild shape, making it usable twice as much. Along with Natural Spell...yeah. :smallsigh:

I recommend telling the DM that class abilities should be off-limits for races, unless they're spell-like abilities. Perhaps include some of those as a replacement, and make it a level adjustment +2 race.

dougch
2009-11-27, 03:55 PM
my suggestion is to make it more of an alter self and make the stat boosts a fixed thing rather than beign able to wild shape into large animals

Edit: and yeah my dm has a hard on for landians so much so that he believes that 3 substitution levels that let you invest your 1 essentia into your sword make it "fixed"

Fortuna
2009-11-27, 05:13 PM
Regarding the stat boosts, IIRC +4 is worth roughly the same as 3 +2 boosts. Perhaps giving small additional bonuses to the +2 +2 types, like an extra SLA, might be helpful?

Solaris
2009-11-27, 05:41 PM
You got Oriental Adventures? Check out the Hengeyokai for shapeshifting as a racial feature.

erikun
2009-11-27, 06:47 PM
Outsider - Outsider is a very good creature type, as it means you can be Polymorphed into some very powerful outsider forms. This can be ignored if Polymorph is fixed or banned.

Also, it really should be Native Outsider unless your DM intentionally doesn't want Landians to be resurrected.

Kuma (Bear) (+4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma)
Kitsune (Fox) (+2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma)
Taka (Hawk) (+2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution)
Raion (Lion) (+2 Strength, +2 Constitution)
Hebi (Snake) (+2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma)
Tora (Tiger) (+2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma)
Ookami (Wolf) (+2 Constitution, +2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma)

Just to point out: each race has an average of +4 to stats. That's a bit high for a LA+1, and only a nerf to sorcerers.

Wild Shape - This should just be the ability to shapeshift into the animal in question. Being able to change into a Dire Bear or Dire Lion is absurdly powerful and one of the best qualities of the Druid. (Full spellcasting is the other.)

Bonus Feat at 1st Level - This is a feature unique to Humans (and Stoutheart Halflings) and should not be handed out to other races without significant lack of other racial features. Limiting it to only racial feats isn't much of a drawback.

Essentia Pool - No clue what an Essentia Pool is, so no comment.

Level Adjustment: +1 - This is "a little bit" low. Landians are significantly stronger than Drow, which is a LA+2. Landians are comparable to Lyncanthropes, which are LA+3 at least.

DracoDei
2009-11-27, 07:58 PM
From a fluff perspective I could see the stacking either way. I would recommend not having it stack for balance.

Personally I would have the animal's physical ability score adjustments replace there base racial adjustments when they use there racial shape-shifting.

Nerfing the duration is on the shifting compared to the druid ability could also be good, but might distract away from the flavor. I would say that 10 minutes per ECL if you have to use it all at once, or changing it so you get 1 minuter per ECL, but you can split it up at you like, with a move action or perhaps a standard for shifting each direction.

I concur that it is looking like LA +2 overall, but I am not entirely sure.

Latronis
2009-11-27, 09:55 PM
I would recommend getting rid of the base racial adjustments altogether and just having the adjustments based on the chosen animal form. That's a little fairer for all animals too, as anyone who really wants charisma will look elsewehere and anyone who doesn't will just take one of the 2 or 3 + stat animals.

Wildshape is easily abuseable. Give it Alternate Form: Chosen animal(and only ever that chosen animal form) instead. Maybe useable X\day determined by hitdice(can still base it on wild shape progression if you like)

Make sure they get the Native subtype. Native outsiders Eat, sleep and breathe and can be raised like normal.

Then i could see it as a +1LA maybe

Temotei
2009-11-27, 10:12 PM
Outsiders get too much. Too much for a PC race. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType) If that's all for free, that is.

Anonymouswizard
2009-11-28, 03:01 AM
Outsider removed for your convinece.

Level Adjustment: +1 - This is "a little bit" low. Landians are significantly stronger than Drow, which is a LA+2. Landians are comparable to Lyncanthropes, which are LA+3 at least.

Well, some people argue that drow are weak for a LA+2 race, but this is stronger. By 3 feet 7inches. LA+3 at least unless normal drow are only LA+1 in your DM's setting.

Temotei
2009-11-28, 03:26 AM
I'm going to say limit the ability bonuses to the animal bonuses listed, as suggested before.

Limit the shape changing ability to just that animal. No dire versions, celestial versions...nothing. Just the normal animal.

Get rid of the bonus feat.

Then possibly add a +2 save bonus based on their animal choice against certain things. Or just in general, but be aware that that's fairly powerful.
Bear: Fortitude.
Fox: Reflex.
Hawk: Reflex.
Lion: Fortitude or Will.
Snake: Reflex.
Tiger: Fortitude or Reflex.
Wolf: Reflex.

The save bonuses are just a suggestion. In my opinion, that would be better than a bonus feat as a racial feature though. By better, I mean more balanced.

Another idea: You could give them a spell-like ability based on their animal choice, in place of the bonus feat. Obviously, the bear and fox would get their respective buffs. Just put a bigger limit on duration or something. Hawk could get eagle's splendor. For lion, I recommend cat's grace. Snake could get delay poison or even neutralize poison. Tiger could get cat's grace as well. Wolf could get magic fang, or greater magic fang, if you're willing to jump to a better 3rd level spell for them. Sure, neutralize poison is a 3rd level spell, but it's so situational that I think it would be a better choice than delay poison for the snake.

dougch
2009-11-28, 12:00 PM
thanks for the suggestions guys ill talk with my dm about it sometime. sadly he gets crazy whenever i post his stuff to get critiqued by peopel who are better at it than i am so ill sadly be saying all your brilliant ideas are mine to make his rage subside.

but thanks a lot tho and i do mean that