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Tanuki Tales
2009-11-27, 06:58 PM
I know I also made one on dragons, I'm just curious is all.

What is the most powerful (Non-Epic/Non-Deity/Non-Unique/Non-Custom made) monster in the game?

And I don't mean like the Tarrasque. I mean using all the abilities at its disposal, what is the toughest thing to face in combat?

Schylerwalker
2009-11-27, 07:13 PM
Balors and Pit Fiends, I'd say. Leaning on the Pit Fiend.

Saph
2009-11-27, 07:19 PM
For its CR, a Pit Fiend isn't actually all that tough. It's competent and nasty, but a party of 20th-level characters should be able to put it down without much trouble.

The nastiest monster for its CR is probably a Shadow. It's CR 3 but it's incorporeal so you need a magic weapon to hit it (which a 3rd-level character, by WBL, can't have) and it can shrug off pretty much any spell except Magic Missile. And two touch attacks from it will turn the party Wizard/Sorc into another Shadow. And since it's incorporeal, it can make itself almost impossible to hit. One Shadow has a good chance of TPKing a 3rd-level party.

Eldariel
2009-11-27, 07:23 PM
And the nastiest stock non-epic creature without looking at CR, assuming we're talking about creatures printed in non-ELH sources and non-templated ones at that, is probably still the Great Wyrm Gold Dragon.


For its CR, a Pit Fiend isn't actually all that tough. It's competent and nasty, but a party of 20th-level characters should be able to put it down without much trouble.

The nastiest monster for its CR is probably a Shadow. It's CR 3 but it's incorporeal so you need a magic weapon to hit it (which a 3rd-level character, by WBL, can't have) and it can shrug off pretty much any spell except Magic Missile. And two touch attacks from it will turn the party Wizard/Sorc into another Shadow. And since it's incorporeal, it can make itself almost impossible to hit. One Shadow has a good chance of TPKing a 3rd-level party.

I'd also give a shoutout to Allip; ability DRAIN from incorporeal on CR 3? Oh, and DC 16 mass Will-save too.

Then there's That Damn Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a), which is also apparently CR 3 but honestly screams TPK being immune to god-damn near everything the party can throw at it except melee attacks, and being Large Stable creature with some unbeatable Grapple-checks and insane damage and good speed and...yeah.

arguskos
2009-11-27, 07:26 PM
One Shadow has a good chance of TPKing a 3rd-level party.
Good chance? If it takes the casters out first, probably starting on anyone with Turn Undead, it'll likely just kill everyone.

Another cruel for the CR critter is the Voor, from MMIV. It's basically a "lol you all die" monster. It can hang on ceilings, has massive reach, does lots of damage and has lots of attacks, has plenty of resistances and decently good AC. It's pretty much crazy hard to handle for a party that isn't pretty well put together.

My personal bet for toughest "non-unique" critter? Some flavor of dragon, probably Purple or Shadow Great Wyrms, simply because they're INSANE CRAZY HARD to handle, esp Purple. Actually, it's a toss up between Purple and Gold, and I have to give it to the Purple, simply because it has better breath weapons. One is a cone of untyped damage equal to the Gold's fire, the second is a burst of perma-blindness, and the third (yeah, it has THREE) is a LIGHTSABER.

Optimystik
2009-11-27, 07:31 PM
The nastiest monster for its CR is probably a Shadow. It's CR 3 but it's incorporeal so you need a magic weapon to hit it (which a 3rd-level character, by WBL, can't have) and it can shrug off pretty much any spell except Magic Missile. And two touch attacks from it will turn the party Wizard/Sorc into another Shadow. And since it's incorporeal, it can make itself almost impossible to hit. One Shadow has a good chance of TPKing a 3rd-level party.

Isn't Magic Weapon a level 1 spell? And at level 3, lasts for 30 rounds per casting. Sure a Fighter 3 would have trouble alone, but if he's going after incorporeal undead without magical backup he deserves what he gets.

Schylerwalker
2009-11-27, 07:34 PM
Yay, another Dragon Compendium fan! Hurray for the beastly Purple Dragon and its THREE breath weapons. Because one isn't enough, and two is too few (Kudos to anybody who gets the reference).

Saph
2009-11-27, 07:41 PM
Isn't Magic Weapon a level 1 spell? And at level 3, lasts for 30 rounds per casting. Sure a Fighter 3 would have trouble alone, but if he's going after incorporeal undead without magical backup he deserves what he gets.

First, most casters don't prepare Magic Weapon. Second, the Shadow can just hang out in a solid object until the spell wears off. Third, even if it doesn't, you have to deal with it popping in and out of the floor and walls with cover and its 50% incorporeality miss chance - oh, and it'll be Strength-draining you while you try to hit it.

I once sent a Greater Shadow (nerfed down to CR 5) against a 6-person party of 4th-level characters. They fought the thing three times over three nights, and only just barely managed to kill it.

arguskos
2009-11-27, 07:41 PM
Yay, another Dragon Compendium fan! Hurray for the beastly Purple Dragon and its THREE breath weapons. Because one isn't enough, and two is too few (Kudos to anybody who gets the reference).
Dude. I advocate the DC all the damn time. Also, Purple Dragons are like cheating. Orange ain't too fair either. That explosive spit is pretty rough.

As for other crazy powerful monsters, the Vivisector is pretty strong too. Swift Action Invis is pretty good. It hits pretty hard, is fairly tough to connect with, and is faaaaaast.

Eldariel
2009-11-27, 07:51 PM
Mmm, Purple vs. Gold is actually very close. Almost too close to call. Differences are basically:

- Gold has +1 HD (and everything that brings; slightly higher SR [with Awaken Spell Resistance], save DCs, stats, To hit, etc.)
- Purple has +1 CL (and all the niceness)
- Gold can also choose Cleric-spells for his spellcasting
- Gold has ~70 more HP
- Gold has better spell-likes (Foresight, most notably; saves the spell known he loses)
- Purple has way better Cha
- Purple has more breath weapon types, though their usefulness is arguable


Ultimately, I'd probably give it to Gold by a narrow margin due to the Cleric spell access, provided Runestaffs are available. As an offensive caster, Purple is much more dangerous due to the 10 (!!) points higher Cha, and one point higher CL (I don't get why Purple goes from 17 to 20 while core Dragons go from 17 to 19) but on these levels, Save-or-X spells begin to lose much of their power due to immunities, already, so Gold's versatility may pay off. Not sure tho; the extra spells Purple gets are pretty huge, and Gold doesn't quite get an extra Epic feat (which would've made it easily in Gold's favor).

Can't say I'd happily face an optimized either.



First, most casters don't prepare Magic Weapon. Second, the Shadow can just hang out in a solid object until the spell wears off. Third, even if it doesn't, you have to deal with it popping in and out of the floor and walls with cover and its 50% incorporeality miss chance - oh, and it'll be Strength-draining you while you try to hit it.

Well, as a level 1 spell, it's pretty scrollable by level 3. 25 gold for something to use against incorporeals isn't too much to ask. Still, yeah, even with Magic Weapon it's gonna suck. And Allip is probably hypnotizing the Fighter which sucks even more.

Though hell, even if you kill Allips, how the heck are you gonna cure Ability Drain on level 3? Getting hit even once is gonna set your Wis back for a LONG time. And it also has 26 HP and every time its Incorporeal Touch hits, it drains more.

Myrmex
2009-11-27, 07:55 PM
Isn't Magic Weapon a level 1 spell? And at level 3, lasts for 30 rounds per casting. Sure a Fighter 3 would have trouble alone, but if he's going after incorporeal undead without magical backup he deserves what he gets.

Having a 50% miss chance against it is going to be rough. If you start to hurt it too much before it drops you with strength damage, it can easily escape, then come back and attack you again.

Or just strength drain someone who doesn't look so hale (like the str 6 wizard), who then comes back as a shadow, and then they drain you, and soon everyone's a shadow.

And if it has mobility instead of alertness as a bonus feat, then it can move out of the floor, attack, and pull back, meaning you have to ready actions to hit it.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-11-27, 08:18 PM
And if it has mobility instead of alertness as a bonus feat, then it can move out of the floor, attack, and pull back, meaning you have to ready actions to hit it.

I think you are confounding mobility with spring attack (which has mobility as a pre requisite)
Mobility gives you an AC bonus againts AoO while spring attack lets you attack in the middel of a move (action?)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-27, 08:37 PM
I think the ban on non-uniques is somewhat poor for this. Maybe just ban PC classes. That way, I can bring in Kobolds. There is so much awesome to a Kobold Adept 4 at CR 1.

Tanuki Tales
2009-11-27, 08:38 PM
I think the ban on non-uniques is somewhat poor for this. Maybe just ban PC classes. That way, I can bring in Kobolds. There is so much awesome to a Kobold Adept 4 at CR 1.

I banned unique and custom mades because its easy to make something challenging and tough that way. Just look at Pun Pun

arguskos
2009-11-27, 08:40 PM
I think the ban on non-uniques is somewhat poor for this. Maybe just ban PC classes. That way, I can bring in Kobolds. There is so much awesome to a Kobold Adept 4 at CR 1.
I think that's a fine, fine ban. :smallbiggrin:

Really, Uniques would be nice, because we could bring in some scary dudes like the Elder Evils (Pandorym comes to mind), but then again, each one is a corner case. I think it's probably wiser to leave it to "generic there's more than one of these" monsters.

Milskidasith
2009-11-27, 08:43 PM
For it's CR, a Revived Fossil Baboon. It's got 25 AC, 26 HP, DR 10/Adamantine, 40 foot move speed, undead immunities, and two 2d6+4 claw attacks per round. CR 1. It kills fighters with ease, and magic users can't use most of the good spells (sleep). It's only weakness is, being a 1 HD undead, turning is actually a weakness, because a good turning check instakills it. Otherwise it's pretty much invincible.

Also, oddly enough, Lantern Archons, at CR 2, only need to kill the party wizard, then flight plus high DR make them essentially immune to low level characters attacks. Granted, they aren't the toughest, but being a "somewhat tough" encounter for a level 1 party means that, without a wasted feat on toughness or 18 con, a wizard is going to die if it takes both rays.

Myrmex
2009-11-27, 08:47 PM
I think you are confounding mobility with spring attack (which has mobility as a pre requisite)
Mobility gives you an AC bonus againts AoO while spring attack lets you attack in the middel of a move (action?)

Oh yeah, I forgot that spring attack required mobility.

Gorbash
2009-11-27, 08:50 PM
For its CR, a Pit Fiend isn't actually all that tough. It's competent and nasty, but a party of 20th-level characters should be able to put it down without much trouble.

The nastiest monster for its CR is probably a Shadow. It's CR 3 but it's incorporeal so you need a magic weapon to hit it (which a 3rd-level character, by WBL, can't have) and it can shrug off pretty much any spell except Magic Missile. And two touch attacks from it will turn the party Wizard/Sorc into another Shadow. And since it's incorporeal, it can make itself almost impossible to hit. One Shadow has a good chance of TPKing a 3rd-level party.

Wait, what?

What do you mean 'can't have' ? 3rd lvl PC, by WBL, should start 3rd lvl with 2700 gp and can have up to 5400 gp. With magic weapon costing 2300 gold, there's no reason why any 3rd lvl fighter wouldn't have it.

Milskidasith
2009-11-27, 08:52 PM
Wait, what?

What do you mean 'can't have' ? 3rd lvl PC, by WBL, should start 3rd lvl with 2700 gp and can have up to 5400 gp. With magic weapon costing 2300 gold, there's no reason why any 3rd lvl fighter wouldn't have it.

Except they might want, y'know, armor. Or mundane supplies. Or the common restriction of "no more than 1/X of your wealth by level on one item, because how the hell did you go adventuring for Y amount of time with nothing until you just bought a giant magical sword."

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-27, 08:55 PM
If you're banning my favorite dragons, I'll have to go with the Adamantine Horror, MMII. CR 9 with Disintegrate and Implosion.

Oh, and Disjunction. At will.

Myrmex
2009-11-27, 08:55 PM
400 gp is enough for a bow, a dagger, a morningstar, some alchemist fire, rope, a skill kit, and armor.

Gorbash
2009-11-27, 09:06 PM
Except they might want, y'know, armor. Or mundane supplies. Or the common restriction of "no more than 1/X of your wealth

Common restriction != rule. And even if it is, what else is there that a 3rd lvl warrior will spend his 2000 gold on?

arguskos
2009-11-27, 09:07 PM
Common restriction != rule. And even if it is, what else is there that a 3rd lvl warrior will spend his 2000 gold on?
Full plate. :smallwink: Just an example. Maybe even Mwk Full Plate, so he can get it enchanted with no fuss later!

Zeta Kai
2009-11-27, 09:08 PM
For it's CR, a Revived Fossil Baboon. It's got 25 AC, 26 HP, DR 10/Adamantine, 40 foot move speed, undead immunities, and two 2d6+4 claw attacks per round. CR 1. It kills fighters with ease, and magic users can't use most of the good spells (sleep). It's only weakness is, being a 1 HD undead, turning is actually a weakness, because a good turning check instakills it. Otherwise it's pretty much invincible.

How does a 1HD undead have 26HP? They should have 6HP on average.

And what book is that horror from?

Eldariel
2009-11-27, 09:16 PM
The Horror is from MM2: The Book That Killed CR (even more so than Core).

The Glyphstone
2009-11-27, 09:16 PM
How does a 1HD undead have 26HP? They should have 6HP on average.

And what book is that horror from?

Revived Fossils get bonus HP similar to constructs. They're from Libris Mortis: Book of Bad Latin.

RelentlessImp
2009-11-27, 09:22 PM
Yay, another Dragon Compendium fan! Hurray for the beastly Purple Dragon and its THREE breath weapons. Because one isn't enough, and two is too few (Kudos to anybody who gets the reference).

Because one isn't enough, and two is too low, it's THREE breath weapons, AWOOOOOOO!

Anyway, I'm going to toss in a vote for the Revived Fossils.

Milskidasith
2009-11-27, 09:24 PM
Common restriction != rule. And even if it is, what else is there that a 3rd lvl warrior will spend his 2000 gold on?

An armor crystal, a weapon crystal, a shield, heavy armor, anklets of translocation or other cheap magical item, potions, etc, etc.



Anyway, I'm going to toss in a vote for the Revived Fossils.

High HD revived fossils are actually pretty wimpy, because they have nothing special (CR 9 at HD 20, with some pretty good natural armor bonuses and HP bonuses for larger sizes, so possibly a tough melee opponent but no longer impossible by any means). It's just that medium animals with 1 HD get so many bonuses it's just impossible for a party to get an attack to actually work.

I'm sure you could find a 1 HD animal with better dexterity or better strength than a baboon that's medium, as well, since they get combat reflexes as a bonus, so extra AoOs. Preferably one that also has another natural attack, because, I forgot, the baboon keeps it's bite so it's got a three attack routine. Really, it's a sick creature, especially if it has turn resistance or, like most clerics, the cleric realizes turning is generally worthless.

Darrin
2009-11-27, 10:27 PM
I'm sure you could find a 1 HD animal with better dexterity or better strength than a baboon that's medium, as well, since they get combat reflexes as a bonus, so extra AoOs. Preferably one that also has another natural attack, because, I forgot, the baboon keeps it's bite so it's got a three attack routine. Really, it's a sick creature, especially if it has turn resistance or, like most clerics, the cleric realizes turning is generally worthless.

Actually, 1HD medium animals are quite rare. Finally found one, though:

Phynxkin, Dragon Magic p. 116. Speed 40', Climb 20', Improved Initiative, and Pounce. And no arguments about hands/legs, either, so it's all ready to go for Tauric template shennanigans. Baboon still has it beat on Strength and Dexterity, however.

Milskidasith
2009-11-27, 10:33 PM
Actually, 1HD medium animals are quite rare. Finally found one, though:

Phynxkin, Dragon Magic p. 116. Speed 40', Climb 20', Improved Initiative, and Pounce. And no arguments about hands/legs, either, so it's all ready to go for Tauric template shennanigans. Baboon still has it beat on Strength and Dexterity, however.

You lose the other feats when you become a revived fossil, so that loses on strength, climb speed, and dexterity. What attacks does it have, though? If it has better than the baboon's one bite with it's (non claw) attacks, then it might still be better (claw attacks are replaced with the 2d6 from revived fossil.)

Zaq
2009-11-29, 12:14 PM
There's always the Elemental Weird, what with its unbeatable Regeneration (I guess Trollbane could stop it, but...), CL 18 Sorcerer casting (with Cleric domain access), and knowledge of the entire goddamn universe from start to finish as a free action.

Naturally, it's CR 12.

Will o' Wisps can also give a party a hard time. I wouldn't count them on the same level of unfairness as the Allip, but they're pretty weird. They can turn invisible, have golem-like magic immunity (except magic missile and, oddly enough, maze), and absurdly high touch AC (so your standard fallback of Orb of X probably won't actually work). I'd rather face one than a cranium rat swarm or That Damn Crab, but still, nasty.

Grushvak
2009-11-29, 01:28 PM
Any monster can be extremely tough if the DM makes full use of its abilities and plays it as if it's really trying to win.

We had quite a blast at level 1 fighting a pseudodragon that sneaked around in high grass, attacked, retreated with its amazing fly speed, and repeated until most of the party was asleep. Honestly, this thing alone could've wiped us.

Then, he threw at us a trio of custom level 1 warriors who had 26 AC (!!!) each. At level 1, against our melee-heavy group.

But my personal favorite is the duo of Formian Warriors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/formian.htm) from last night. Their full attack routine is impressive, and they can consistently out-melee level 2-3 characters. But that's not the biggest issue: they're immune to pretty much everything a mage can throw at them at this level. They're that-damn-crab Lite.

Haberdashery
2009-11-29, 01:59 PM
If you're banning my favorite dragons, I'll have to go with the Adamantine Horror, MMII. CR 9 with Disintegrate and Implosion.

Oh, and Disjunction. At will.

I'm seconding this. That one made me double-take when I read it in the MM2.

Akal Saris
2009-11-29, 04:04 PM
From personal experience, I'll agree with Saph that the Shadow is the most brutal monster for its CR. I've been in 2 TPKs from shadows, and also killed 2 of my PCs in separate games with them, even when the PCs were much higher level.

Naturally, that's why I really like the Master of Shrouds :)

Zeta Kai
2009-11-29, 04:13 PM
If you're banning my favorite dragons, I'll have to go with the Adamantine Horror, MMII. CR 9 with Disintegrate and Implosion.

Oh, and Disjunction. At will.

Yeah, I basically ignored the MDJ part the one time that I used one. IIRC, I pitted one of them against a party of 5 PCs (average level: 10). Two of the PCs died before the party escaped. Those were the first two deaths in the campaign, which started from level 1. I made it clear afterward that the A-Horror was a unique creation, & I made it a side-quest to destroy the blueprints.

Never again. That thing is just wrong.

Danin
2009-11-29, 04:26 PM
In these threads I always have to throw out a vote for the seldom known about Essence Eater. Does a fair amount of damage, has good movement and the like and has a decent DR to go with it's boat loads of health and fast healing and the absurd AC. That, however, is the tip of the ice burg.

When an essence eater attacks, it instantly knows every magic item worn by their victim and every spell they know and have prepared. It then chooses an item and a spell (if applicable), drains them for a few minutes and gains the ability to cast the spell as a spell like ability and produce the same effect of the item. The bonuses from magical armor can be drained and apply to the creature's skin (including enhancement bonus and special abilities), while the bonus from a weapon applies to their claws. The essence eater can drain more than one weapon or armor at a time, applying the highest enhancement bonus and stacking all the special abilities.

When you attack the essence eater with a magic weapon, that is drained before the attack deals damage. When hit with a spell, if it fails to pierce its spell resistance (of 27), the spell is drained and becomes a temporary spell like ability of the essence eater. The essence eater also drains all buffs from a target it hits and applies them to itself.

Did I mention it has 2 claws, a bite, a poison tail attack and pounce? Of that it can use it's tail in a grapple and gets a +8 bonus on grapple checks? In addition to being large? That it also has a mad bonus to hide checks due to it's chameleon like skin? That it can detect magic at will, without concentration, and attacks casters first? Or that the save DC of 23 before it buffs itself by stealing spells is a little rough given the CR? And quickens it's spell like abilities 3/day?

This bad boy is CR 9 folks. It moves faster than any party, heals itself, ambushes it's prey and generally messes stuff up. We were a little choked when it hit our cleric and quickened "Heal" on itself after we had managed to do about 90 damage to it.

Plus, it looks like the "Alien" in a bad mood, which just adds to the badass...

Temotei
2009-11-29, 04:46 PM
Yay, another Dragon Compendium fan! Hurray for the beastly Purple Dragon and its THREE breath weapons. Because one isn't enough, and two is too few (Kudos to anybody who gets the reference).

I've heard it before. I hope it's Winnie the Pooh. :smalltongue:

mostlyharmful
2009-11-29, 04:49 PM
There's always the Elemental Weird, what with its unbeatable Regeneration (I guess Trollbane could stop it, but...), CL 18 Sorcerer casting (with Cleric domain access), and knowledge of the entire goddamn universe from start to finish as a free action.

Naturally, it's CR 12.

Yeah, I love those guys, add in their ability to retreat to anouther plane as a move action. Someone was smoking something...

And shadows are the suckiest in Core in my experiance, add anouther vote for incorporeal, str draining, ambush predators taking on the DnD equivilant of little kids.:smallannoyed: Can be a solid TPK even at mid or high levels if they get the drop. See here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116095&page=23)

Optimystik
2009-11-29, 04:52 PM
First, most casters don't prepare Magic Weapon.

They should if they're going up against incorporeal undead; it's more useful than, say, magic missile at that level. Even if both your divine AND arcane casters neglect it, your cleric can still turn the thing.


Second, the Shadow can just hang out in a solid object until the spell wears off.

They're not smart enough for that, according to Libris Mortis. They notice when something is able to damage them, but they respond by focusing on that person, not waiting out their magic. ("Running Undead Encounters, page 137.) They flee within solid objects when in danger of losing, but since they don't have spring attack like greater Shadows do, can't attack and flee in the same round.

@ Myrmex: Shadows also doesn't focus on "not-so-hale" targets.

Any creature can be more dangerous than its CR if you make it uses its abilities with your intelligence instead of its own.

Oslecamo
2009-11-29, 04:53 PM
Ever checked out the Book of exalted deeds and Vile Darkness monster section? Pretty much everything there is quite strong, and some are just TPK material.

Aleax for example. Stronger than the creature it copies and it cannot be harmed by anything else! It even states that others cannot hinder it, so she walks over solid fog and wall of force and whatnot! Oh, and freaking shapechange at will! While retaining his own special capacities and class abilities! I can't even think of a single situation where I would want to use this!

Saph
2009-11-29, 05:02 PM
They should if they're going up against incorporeal undead; it's more useful than, say, magic missile at that level.

Any creature isn't too difficult if you know in advance that you're going up against it and can prepare accordingly. In my experience, you rarely get that luxury.


Even if both your divine AND arcane casters neglect it, your cleric can still turn the thing.

Turn resistance. Oops. :smallamused: Of course, the cleric still might affect it, if he gets lucky and hits a 16+ on his check. Which means it'll flee through the wall and come back in one minute or so.


since they don't have spring attack like greater Shadows do, they can't attack and flee in the same round.

Attack, 5' step into the floor or wall.

Optimystik
2009-11-29, 05:11 PM
Any creature isn't too difficult if you know in advance that you're going up against it and can prepare accordingly. In my experience, you rarely get that luxury.

You may not know it's specifically a shadow, but generally you know what creature types you're up against. If your campaign takes you into some catacombs, there are probably going to be undead, right? So why wouldn't you prepare magic weapon?


Turn resistance. Oops.

True, it's harder, but still possible.


Attack, 5' step into the floor or wall.

You're still ignoring that they aren't smart enough for that. Only Greater Shadows use hit-and-run tactics - even the SRD says that much, never mind LM. You can't buff your shadows' intelligence then argue that they're too hard for their CR.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-29, 05:13 PM
Turn resistance. Oops. :smallamused: Of course, the cleric still might affect it, if he gets lucky and hits a 16+ on his check. Which means it'll flee through the wall and come back in one minute or so.


Unless it was rebuked! Rebuked ones stay in place and cower letting you kick the crap out of them.

erikun
2009-11-29, 05:20 PM
You're still ignoring that they aren't smart enough for that.
I don't much agree with this. I mean, it's not smart enough to engage in long term planning or trying to lure random NPCs into a secluded area to drain them one-by-one. However, tactics like stealth, ambush, and hit-and-run aren't beyond its capabilities. Heck, it has INT 6. It can think of tactics beyond "charge wildly yelling and screaming."

Heck, a monsterous spider has no Intelligence score, yet having it sneak around and drag off grabbed prey is very appropriate. Having it jump into the middle of a group and flail until dead would be very non-spiderlike.

Optimystik
2009-11-29, 05:29 PM
I don't much agree with this. I mean, it's not smart enough to engage in long term planning or trying to lure random NPCs into a secluded area to drain them one-by-one. However, tactics like stealth, ambush, and hit-and-run aren't beyond its capabilities.

It's tactics are spelled out in Libris Mortis. It specifically:

1) Doesn't distinguish between low-strength targets and high-strength ones - it won't go after the casters like, say, a mohrg will.
2) Focuses on targets that are able to damage it (i.e. don't cast magic missile if you don't want it coming after you.)
3) Are not single-minded - they will flee and hide from tough opponents. It says nothing about them coming back.

The SRD says "Greater shadows are more fearsome due to their hit-and-run tactics" strongly implying that regular shadows don't employ them.

Myrmex
2009-11-29, 05:30 PM
Shadows also have 12 wisdom. Intelligence isn't the only ability score that governs behavior.

Saph
2009-11-29, 05:34 PM
You may not know it's specifically a shadow, but generally you know what creature types you're up against. If your campaign takes you into some catacombs, there are probably going to be undead, right? So why wouldn't you prepare magic weapon?

First, because magic weapon is a pretty crummy spell except in those very specific circumstances. Against any non-incorporeal undead, it's a highly inefficient use of a spell slot and an action.

Second, because catacombs does not equal incorporeal undead. The game's called Dungeons and Dragons. Two thirds of the Monster Manual can be found underground in ruins and tunnels.


You're still ignoring that they aren't smart enough for that.

If an Int 2 animal can grasp the concept of backing out of an enemy's reach, I think an Int 6 creature can probably manage it. Int 6 is well within the range of player characters - would you rule that an Int 6 PC is guilty of bad roleplaying if he uses basic tactics?

Volkov
2009-11-29, 05:36 PM
The Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon takes the cake. Facing them in the low epic levels will lead to a brutal fight.

erikun
2009-11-29, 05:36 PM
I don't see anything in there which prevents a Shadow from taking advantage of its surroundings, such as moving into a wall for cover and sneaking up to attack.

Although I agree that I misused "hit-and-run" earlier. I meant that a Shadow would use the attack > hide > attack in a single combat if it would be advantageous to do so. (at least, if the advantage is obvious to the Shadow) A Shadow would not use the attack > retreat > attack > retreat method of combat to wear a party down throughout the day, like an intelligent fighter would. A standard Shadow wouldn't have a reason to revisit a party a second time, either because it's dead or it ran away to avoid getting destroyed.

Optimystik
2009-11-29, 05:43 PM
Shadows also have 12 wisdom. Intelligence isn't the only ability score that governs behavior.

That doesn't help it go after the Wizard instead of the Fighter - specific trumps general.


First, because magic weapon is a pretty crummy spell except in those very specific circumstances. Against any non-incorporeal undead, it's a highly inefficient use of a spell slot and an action.

If a party goes to an area that looks frequented by undead and only prepare for the corporeal ones, they deserve what they get.


Second, because catacombs does not equal incorporeal undead. The game's called Dungeons and Dragons. Two thirds of the Monster Manual can be found underground in ruins and tunnels.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Undead are likely to be anywhere?

And what would a 3rd level wizard or cleric prepare in their first-level slots vs incorporeal undead instead of magic weapon? Sleep?


If an Int 2 animal can grasp the concept of backing out of an enemy's reach, I think an Int 6 creature can probably manage it. Int 6 is well within the range of player characters - would you rule that an Int 6 PC is guilty of bad roleplaying if he uses basic tactics?

I'm saying that a DM who ignores Shadow tactics to make an encounter artificially difficult is metagaming.


I don't see anything in there which prevents a Shadow from taking advantage of its surroundings, such as moving into a wall for cover and sneaking up to attack.

Of course they do that initially. They aren't going to let the fighter pass by so they can get at the squishy sorcerer though. They'll attack whoever comes close to their hiding place first.

CockroachTeaParty
2009-11-29, 07:31 PM
Aleax for example. Stronger than the creature it copies and it cannot be harmed by anything else! It even states that others cannot hinder it, so she walks over solid fog and wall of force and whatnot! Oh, and freaking shapechange at will! While retaining his own special capacities and class abilities! I can't even think of a single situation where I would want to use this!

I used an Aleax once. It was actually a very interesting fight. While nobody else could harm it, the rest of the party (mostly casters), just readied actions to counterspell the Aleax's spells (it was copying another caster). The whole thing turned into a stalemate, with the Aleax discussing its mission with its target, and the target willingly deciding to go meet the deity that had sent it. It was all pretty cool.

The Glyphstone
2009-11-29, 07:45 PM
The Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon takes the cake. Facing them in the low epic levels will lead to a brutal fight.

Great Wyrm Prismatics are CR66. I'm scared to know what you consider high epic levels...:smallfrown::smalleek:

@Aleax: Isn't the thing basically PLOT on legs anyways? If your party is fighting an Aleax and winning - thus fighting Aleaxes plural, something screwy is up.

arguskos
2009-11-29, 07:49 PM
@Aleax: Isn't the thing basically PLOT on legs anyways? If your party is fighting an Aleax and winning - thus fighting Aleaxes plural, something screwy is up.
Well, statistically, it's possible. It's just HARD. They're you, but better and more hardcore, with random divine bonuses to stuff.

Volkov
2009-11-29, 07:50 PM
Great Wyrm Prismatics are CR66. I'm scared to know what you consider high epic levels...:smallfrown::smalleek:

@Aleax: Isn't the thing basically PLOT on legs anyways? If your party is fighting an Aleax and winning - thus fighting Aleaxes plural, something screwy is up.

I fought one at level 25. It was the party gift for reaching a quarter of the way to level 100. We ran away with our tails tucked between our legs....much like a solid %65 of all the other encounters.

Tavar
2009-11-29, 07:51 PM
What about a Clockwork Horror, from MM2? I've heard that those things are pretty crazy.

Volkov
2009-11-29, 07:52 PM
What about a Clockwork Horror, from MM2? I've heard that those things are pretty crazy.

In groups yes. Not so much on their own. The problem is that they tend to come in large numbers.

CockroachTeaParty
2009-11-29, 08:10 PM
What's the formula for CR with NPC classes, again? Is it the level of the character minus 2? Or is it minus 1?

What would the CR of a lv. 3 dolgrim (ECS) warrior be, for instance?

grautry
2009-11-29, 08:32 PM
What's the formula for CR with NPC classes, again? Is it the level of the character minus 2? Or is it minus 1?

What would the CR of a lv. 3 dolgrim (ECS) warrior be, for instance?

Take a look here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm).

Starbuck_II
2009-11-29, 08:45 PM
What's the formula for CR with NPC classes, again? Is it the level of the character minus 2? Or is it minus 1?

What would the CR of a lv. 3 dolgrim (ECS) warrior be, for instance?

Depends on association. (warrior, mage, skill monkey, etc)

Ogres are warriors. As are Dolgrims.

Oslecamo
2009-11-29, 08:52 PM
I used an Aleax once. It was actually a very interesting fight. While nobody else could harm it, the rest of the party (mostly casters), just readied actions to counterspell the Aleax's spells (it was copying another caster). The whole thing turned into a stalemate, with the Aleax discussing its mission with its target, and the target willingly deciding to go meet the deity that had sent it. It was all pretty cool.

You did it wrong. The Aleax entry doesn't say only that it cannot be harmed, it also says that the Aleax cannot be hindered by anyone other than the target. The allies shouldn't be able to counterspell him. Cast AMF? He laughs and keeps casting. Lock him in a forcecage? He doesn't even notice it.

CockroachTeaParty
2009-11-29, 09:16 PM
You did it wrong. The Aleax entry doesn't say only that it cannot be harmed, it also says that the Aleax cannot be hindered by anyone other than the target. The allies shouldn't be able to counterspell him. Cast AMF? He laughs and keeps casting. Lock him in a forcecage? He doesn't even notice it.

Eh, I figured that the Aleax's spells weren't the Aleax itself, and thus were vulnerable to dispelling, and that the character who the Aleax was targeting could still be buffed and healed by his friends.

The Aleax let the rest of the party know that if they did interfere, it would not spare them its wrath either. So it was a very interesting fight.

Besides, if the rest of the party couldn't do anything of interest, it would have been quite boring for them. 'Hindered' in this case is a pretty broad term, but is subject to DM interpretation. So I played the Aleax how I thought it should be played.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-29, 09:27 PM
In groups yes. Not so much on their own. The problem is that they tend to come in large numbers.Clockwork Horror contains a large variety of monsters, including the Adamantine Horror. If you think that's only dangerous in large numbers, I pity your players.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-11-29, 09:47 PM
You did it wrong. The Aleax entry doesn't say only that it cannot be harmed, it also says that the Aleax cannot be hindered by anyone other than the target. The allies shouldn't be able to counterspell him. Cast AMF? He laughs and keeps casting. Lock him in a forcecage? He doesn't even notice it.Man I love those. And yes I have desired them to come after some of my divine casters before :)

They make my CoDzilla stronger.

Seffbasilisk
2009-11-29, 09:59 PM
Only a passing mention of That Damn Crab? C'mon people!

I threw one of those at a decently optimized party, and even with the mineral warrior template, it's CR was still three below the party level...and the party had six members. They ended up running and choosing a different place to ford the river.

Sandman
2009-11-29, 11:30 PM
Would have to say "Ibrandlyn" from Monsters of Faerun (page 62), though it's 3rd edition and the CR they have on that thing just can't be right (it's cr 5).

Can't imagine any lv. 5 party surviving that thing... actually it would be really hard to defeat even at 10th level.:smallamused:

Lamech
2009-11-29, 11:55 PM
I through my vote in for protean scourge. Nothing says I hate you like a dozen fireballs to the face from invisible monsters out of true seeing range. For added stupidity give them sudden maximize.
Balors, I mean really? Blashphamy at will? Against a group of twenties with CL 20? And you can summon a copy of your self? Lets see... party is stunned the whole fight and its summon kills the party.
Level four kobold adept, preferably with sudden maximize, and a CL booster somehow... "Everyone 20 damage from burning hands DC 16 save for half" TPK: just and PCs.
Efrreti + slaves. "Three wishes... lets go with send the party into the sun, send the party into the sun, and... send the party into the sun. Everyone make three will SoDs."
Pyrohydras with the interpertation each head gives one jet of flame. "Alright the hydra has 12 heads thats 36d6 pointd of damage per jet. The fighter is hit by three jets the rogue seven the cleric two and the wizard one."
Pyrohydras with maximize breath, and other metabreaths: "216 points of fire damage save for half." "No one even has hald that much HP"
Pyrohydras who bite off their own heads who have metabreath feats. "Anyone have over 206 HP? Instadeath for all"

Hunter Noventa
2009-11-30, 12:12 AM
I vote for Epehermal swarm. CR4, 100+ HP if the DM maxes it out, incorporeal, swarm, does AUTOMATIC Strength damage with NO SAVe. No roll to hit, no save. I dont' remember the book, just that it nearly totally wiped out our party.

dspeyer
2009-11-30, 02:42 AM
For this challenge, what are the rules on templates? On class levels? On paying attention to CR?

It makes a difference.

Oslecamo
2009-11-30, 03:43 AM
Eh, I figured that the Aleax's spells weren't the Aleax itself, and thus were vulnerable to dispelling, and that the character who the Aleax was targeting could still be buffed and healed by his friends.
It's ok for the buffs and healing, but if you allow to disrupt the attacks, the Aleax is worthless. Melee aleax? Destroy his weapons or keep moving your ally. Caster Aleax? Counter his spells and lol at him, like your party did.



The Aleax let the rest of the party know that if they did interfere, it would not spare them its wrath either. So it was a very interesting fight.

And countering his spells didn't count as interfering?



Besides, if the rest of the party couldn't do anything of interest, it would have been quite boring for them. 'Hindered' in this case is a pretty broad term, but is subject to DM interpretation. So I played the Aleax how I thought it should be played.
As an overglorified messenger? Because that's all he can do with your interpretation. Granted, it isn't much fun for the party if they can't touch him,
but that also makes the Aleax an easy picking for any decent party (block all his attacks and let his target kill him), and like PlzBreakMyCmpAn pointed out, makes them stronger. Thus a broken monster.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn:Not everybody has such soft DMs as you. I've made CoDzillas cry on past campaigns. Gestalt colossal CoDzillas with 9th level spells. Backed up by incantrixes on steroids. And no I didn't use DM fiat. Just well optimized monsters.

Also +1 for the Epehermal swarm. I've used them once. Very very nasty.

Milskidasith
2009-11-30, 07:49 AM
Would have to say "Ibrandlyn" from Monsters of Faerun (page 62), though it's 3rd edition and the CR they have on that thing just can't be right (it's cr 5).

Can't imagine any lv. 5 party surviving that thing... actually it would be really hard to defeat even at 10th level.:smallamused:

It's got SR, a weak breath attack, decent natural attacks, low HP, takes double damage from cold, and it's only useful ability is a small AoE pin attack. It also has a piss-poor will save and no way to fly. I.E. casters win, again. That thing isn't really tough at all, and even a decent beatstick could probably kill it in a couple hits.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-12-04, 12:56 PM
I'm listing these. I'm to lazy to dig up the page numbers for all these. Some help would be good.


a Shadow. It's CR 3

That Damn Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a), which is also apparently CR 3

CR critter is the Voor, from MMIV
Purple ... Great Wyrms (Drag Comp) ... Gold Dragon This one need CR and page number

VivisectorDrag Comp? Needs CR

Revived Fossil Baboon (LM). 25 AC, 26 HP, DR 10/Adamantine, 40' ms, undead, two 2d6+4 claw attacks per round. CR 1.
Lantern Archons, at CR 2, only need to kill the party wizard

Adamantine Horror, MMII. CR 9 with Disintegrate and Implosion. and Disjunction. At will.

Elemental Weird. unbeatable Regeneration (I guess Trollbane could stop it, CL 18 Sorcerer (with Cleric domain), and knowledge of the entire goddamn universe from start to finish as a free action. it's CR 12.
Will o' Wisps (
Allip, (CR3)
a cranium rat swarmWhere is Elemental wierd from? What is a cranium rat swarm?

Essence Eater. It then chooses an item and a spell (if applicable), drains them for a few minutes and gains the ability to cast the spell as a spell like ability and produce the same effect of the item. The bonuses from magical armor can be drained and apply to the creature's skin (including enhancement bonus and special abilities), while the bonus from a weapon applies to their claws. The essence eater can drain more than one weapon or armor at a time, applying the highest enhancement bonus and stacking all the special abilities. CR 9 folks.Source?

the Book of exalted deeds Aleax[/B]CR varies. Page number?

"Ibrandlyn" from Monsters of Faerun (page 62), (it's cr 5).

protean scourge. Nothing says I hate you like a dozen fireballs to the face from invisible monsters out of true seeing range. For added stupidity give them sudden maximize.the efreeti slaves should wish for their freedom and that pyrohydra interpretation is obviously wrong... CR? Source?

I vote for Epehermal swarm. CR4 AUTOMATIC Strength damage. No roll to hit, no save.Source?

I will submit Spider Swarms. At CR1 with weapon immunity but 9hp its not a 1 vs party monster. But send in say 3 and the wizard will run out of AOE spells :) the 1d3str poison is nice too.



PlzBreakMyCmpAn:Not everybody has such soft DMs as you. I've made CoDzillas cry on past campaigns. Gestalt colossal CoDzillas with 9th level spells. Backed up by incantrixes on steroids. And no I didn't use DM fiat. Just well optimized monsters.The build was optimized to 1-shot the inevitable Aleax that would come after CoDzilla for abusing miracles. Simply by nature of the having to state crimes, the Aleax would be toast.

awa
2009-12-04, 03:39 PM
Elemental weirds are from monster manual 2 although there are also 2 in frost burn.

Monster manual 2 has some bizarre cr decisions

KellKheraptis
2009-12-04, 03:49 PM
I don't know if anyone mentioned it on page 2, but I nominate the Planetar and the Black Ethergaunt, given that both are basically going up against a full caster of a Tier 1 with 9th level spells. Oh, and better stats. Planetars are build in gish being outsiders, and the 'gaunt has a base 30 Int :)

Snails
2009-12-04, 04:38 PM
I think that Ghoul deserves an honorable mention.

Not as impressive as the Shadow perhaps, but with multiple attacks and a paralysis effect it has a notably high chance of TPKing a low level party for a creature that weighs in with a humble CR 1.

Deepblue706
2009-12-04, 05:18 PM
Shadow isn't that great. You can buy oil of Magic Weapon for 50gp. Granted when you lack the proper tools, the fight shifts way into the Shadow's favor, but I think That Damned Crab grabs the title of Toughest Monster since that'll likely take either a lot of hirelings, or siege equipment, because there's not much a chance a low-level party will be able to take it on at level 3 alone.

Starbuck_II
2009-12-04, 05:19 PM
I think that Ghoul deserves an honorable mention.

Not as impressive as the Shadow perhaps, but with multiple attacks and a paralysis effect it has a notably high chance of TPKing a low level party for a creature that weighs in with a humble CR 1.

Being an elf makes you immune.

Cieyrin
2009-12-04, 05:50 PM
Being an elf makes you immune.

Yeah but then you're an elf, with the Con penalty to go with it, meaning that it carves through you that much faster. :smallsigh:

Starbuck_II
2009-12-04, 05:55 PM
Yeah but then you're an elf, with the Con penalty to go with it, meaning that it carves through you that much faster. :smallsigh:

No one said you are a high elf. :smallwink:

hamishspence
2009-12-04, 06:03 PM
The Frostburn elemental weirds don't have unbeatable regeneration though (unlike MM2 ones) they take normal damage from fire, and cold iron weapons.

Adding something like that to the MM2 ones (annoyingly, the 3.5 update to MM2 doesn't appear to mention it- maybe the errata does?) would solve the problem.

Snails
2009-12-04, 06:35 PM
Being an elf makes you immune.

And the Shadow can be taken apart by someone with the amazing foresight to use their free Wizard class ability at the cost of 12 gold pieces and 5 silver and 1 xp, and a friend with a big stick.

The point is not that there are not obvious countermeasures. The point is that there are certain creatures with unusual thick probability "tails" -- the odds of something going badly wrong are far higher than one might expect, based on the CR alone.

The Ghoul, Shadow, and Remorhaz fit the profile.

Tanuki Tales
2009-12-06, 03:05 PM
For this challenge, what are the rules on templates? On class levels? On paying attention to CR?

It makes a difference.

Post 1. I said no custom made or unique monsters.

Edit: Also, guys, stop bringing up Prismatic Dragons. I clearly also said Non-epic.