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Eagle
2009-12-01, 12:59 AM
The Apothecary
“A dash of parsley, a hint of oregano, and voilà! A fusion bomb!”

Apothecaries mix stuff up. They can fit into pretty much any setting, since most have people that mix drinks. Even if you don’t have alchemists in your world, you probably have bartenders.

Playing an Apothecary: As an apothecary, you might not have the sheer firepower of a true spellcaster, but given enough time you can seriously take on anything. It all depends on the concoctions you make and the way you combine different ingredients. All ingredients have both positive and negative effects, and to succeed as an apothecary you’ll need to be able to anticipate when and where you’ll be using your brews to make sure they help instead of hinder.

Apothecaries and the Economy (A note for DMs): Apothecaries need ingredients. This is pretty obvious. They can generate them themselves, but a DM needs to make sure that they don’t destroy the world economy by being able to make free stuff from level 1. The easiest way to do this is if you can dissociate wealth from character power in your campaign setting. If this is too drastic of a change or not otherwise not possible, you can use the makeshift ruling that most people don’t really give a hoot about alchemical stuff, since it’s mostly useless crap. So you say it’s worthless and call it a day. This might get a little weird at 5th level when they can find GOLD in the environment, but it’s your campaign. Go ahead and say it’s unrefined gold if it makes you feel any better.

But anyway, the gist of it is that they shouldn’t be able to sell their stuff to break the game. If money is power in your game, don’t let them sell ingredients. If money has nothing to do with power in your game, let them sell stuff and actually get things that people buy with money, like palaces and slaves and ****.

Starting Age: As wizard
Starting Equipment: 6d6 x 10 gp
Alignment: Apothecaries can be any alignment, although lots of them like to pretend to be neutral so they can focus on their ‘art’. If that makes them lawful to you, then go nuts.

Hit Die: d6
Skill Points: 6 + Int
Class Skills: The apothecary’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (all) (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Profession (Wis), Psicraft (Int), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Cha), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), and Survival (Wis).

Apothecary
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Ingredients

1st|+0|+2|+0|+2|Alchemy, beginner’s bases, primer ingredients, scavenge|
3

2nd|+1|+3|+0|+3|Alchemist’s softball, a nose for limestone|
3

3rd|+2|+3|+1|+3|Novice ingredients|
3

4th|+3|+4|+1|+4|Basic bases, the most dangerous game|
3

5th|+3|+4|+1|+4|Standard ingredients|
3

6th|+4|+5|+2|+5|Extra ingredient, steady (hand) under pressure|
4

7th|+5|+5|+2|+5|Better bases, impressive ingredients|
4

8th|+6/+1|+6|+2|+6|Aftertaste, left-handed stir|
4

9th|+6/+1|+6|+3|+6|Double-sized ingredients|
4

10th|+7/+2|+7|+3|+7|Brilliant bases, KISS|
4

11th|+8/+3|+7|+3|+7|Exciting ingredients|
4

12th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8|Double trouble, extra ingredients|
5

13th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8|Breathtaking bases, fantastic ingredients|
5

14th|+10/+5|+9|+4|+9|A dark and stormy night, bibasic concoctions|
5

15th|+11/+6/+1|+9|+5|+9|Phenomenal ingredients|
5

16th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Bitching bases, left-handed swirl|
5

17th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Transcendant ingredients|
5

18th|+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|A hint of paprika, extra ingredient|
6

19th|+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Brütal bäses, God’s own ingredients|
6

20th|+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Magnum opus|
6

[/table]

All of the following are class features of the apothecary.

Weapon and Armour Proficiency: The apothecary is proficient with all light armour and simple weapons. He is not proficient with any medium armour or heavy armour, or shields of any kind.

Alchemy (Su): By taking five minutes, an apothecary can create an alchemical concoction. They can use any ingredients they like to make it that they have in their possession, although at 1st level they can only have three in any one concoction. All concoctions must have one (and only one) base in them as one of the ingredients, which determines the form the concoction takes.

When mixing a concoction, the apothecary makes a Craft (alchemy) check. The DC is determined by adding up the DC of all the ingredients used. If successful, the concoction is properly mixed. If they fail the check, the concoction is ruined in some spectacular way which ruins the ingredients.

A concoction typically weighs about 1 lb when it’s finished, and is administered as a standard action.

As an apothecary advances in level, they have access to additional grades of ingredients and bases. At 1st level, they can only draw from the Primer Ingredients list and the Beginner’s Bases list.

The save DC against a concoction or any of it’s effects is 10 + 1/2 the apothecary’s ranks in Craft (alchemy) while making the concoction + the apothecary’s Int modifier. The duration is a number of rounds equal to the the ranks in Craft (alchemy). A concoction always offers a saving throw to negate it if the target is unwilling.

Some ingredients are denoted as transformational ingredients. They turn someone into something else entirely. You can’t mix two of these in the same concoction, and if someone already transformed by one gets hit with another, the newer transformational effect overrides the previous one. You’re either a minotaur or a pile of goo. You can’t be both at the same time.

Beginner Bases: At level 1, the apothecary can use these bases with his alchemy. Beginner bases have a scarcity rating of 1 and a Craft (alchemy) DC of 2.

• Air: The concoction takes the form of a gas. When opened, it begins spreading from its container at a rate of 5ft. per round for three rounds. Wind disperses the gas harmlessly. A breathing enemy in the area at the start of their turn can negate the effects of the concoction with a Fortitude save. Anyone immune against inhaled poisons is immune to these concoctions.
• Water: The concoction takes the form of an imbibed potion, which works exactly like a spell effect potion. The target may make a Fortitude save to negate the effects of the concoction. Anyone immune against ingested poisons is immune to these concoctions.
• Sand: The concoction takes the form of a granular substance that can be thrown an adjacent target as an attack action. No attack roll is required, but instead the target may make a Reflex save to negate the effects of the concoction.
• Snake Venom: The concoction takes the form of a poison that can be applied to a piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning weapon. It strikes the target if the poisoned weapon succeeds on an attack roll, even if it deals no damage. After being applied to the weapon, the poison remains potent for five minutes until it becomes inert. A weapon can only have one poison on it at a time. The target may make a Fortitude save to negate the effects of the concoction. Anyone immune against injury poisons is immune to these concoctions.
• Sulfuric Acid: The concoction takes the form of a splash weapon with a range increment of 10ft. It strikes the target with a ranged touch attack, as well as affecting anuone in an adjacent space. The target(s) may make a Fortitude save to negate the effects of the concoction.

Primer Ingredients: At level 1, the apothecary can use these ingredients with his alchemy. Primer ingredients have a scarcity rating of 1 and a Craft (alchemy) DC of 4.

• Bark (Earth): Bark grows on their skin. The target gains natural armour of +1 per 3 ranks of Craft (alchemy). They also become vulnerable to fire.
• Coral (Water): The target becomes adapted to underwater living. They become immune to pressure dangers as they dive, they can breathe underwater, and they don’t take any penalties to attack rolls or AC while underwater, even if the weapon normally isn’t suited to such a thing (like a bow). They can no longer breathe above water, and need to hold their breath.
• Garlic (Earth): They seriously stink. The target is treated like garlic for any vampires nearby, but moreover anyone with a sense of smell that even comes within 30ft. of them needs to make a Fortitude save or be nauseated while in the area. If an undead fails this save, they can’t even enter into the zone. Creatures with the scent ability gain a +10 bonus on tracking someone who has been under the effects of this in the last 24 hours.
• Ginger (Earth): Wow. Nobody likes ginger. The target’s breath smells absolutely awful, and they take a -5 penalty on all Charisma-based checks. Even Intimidate, because nobody’s going to take them seriously when they smell like ginger. On the plus side, if anybody swallows them whole while under the influence of ginger, they need to make a Fortitude save or throw them up again and then spend the next round prone and helpless as their gag reflex kicks in. I hate ginger.
• Horsehair (Earth): The target gains cloven feet which lets them gallop like the wind even if it also makes them look a little like the devil. They gain a +5ft. bonus to their base land speed for every 2 ranks in Craft (alchemy). If they step on a caltrop, though, they fall prone and their speed falls by 3/4 instead of half.
• Honey (Water): The target smells super-sweet and people love them. They gain a bonus on all Diplomacy and verbal Bluff checks of +5 for every 3 ranks of Craft (alchemy), and they can cast charm person as a spell-like ability once during the effect with a caster level equal to their character level. They also literally begin to ooze honey out of their pores, which is actually kind of gross and glues them to the ground. They can’t make 5ft. steps.
• Nightshade (Earth): The target falls into a drug-induced haze and take a penalty on saves against sleep of -1 per 2 ranks of Craft (alchemy). They also forget about little details like pain and stuff, and they can ignore the effects of nonlethal damage. Nonlethal damage is still tallied, and if they’re over their limit at the end of it, they still fall unconscious.
• Pearl (Water): The target starts to itch uncontrollably in that one little place in the back that they can never quite seem to reach. They take a -4 penalty on all Intelligence, Wisdom and Constitution-based skill checks, and they provoke attacks of opportunity while maintaining concentration on a spell. The pearl of irritation also makes them understandable fidgety, and they can’t sit still. They gain a corresponding +4 bonus on Reflex saves, and can make their 5ft. step for the round during anybody’s turn.
• Soap (Water): The target becomes almost unnaturally clean, losing any kinds of marks, scars, tattoos, or even arcane identifiers like an arcane mark. If you have at least 12 ranks in Craft (alchemy), this also removes a mark of justice. This is actually an instantaneous effect, so this part of a concoction doesn’t have any duration.
• Straw (Earth): The target is sustained but unsatisfied. On a day where they take in a concoction with straw in it, they don’t need to eat, drink, or sleep, but they’re fatigued until they actually do get some sleep.
• Tooth (Earth): The target transforms into a beast-like version of themselves. They gain a primary natural bite attack that deals 1d6 piercing damage, and an enhancement bonus to Strength and Dexterity of +1 per 2 ranks in Craft (alchemy). This is a transformational ingredient, and can’t be combined in a concoction with any other such ingredients.

Scavenge (Ex): An apothecary can spend an hour scavenging around in the environment and using fancy equipment to distill, purify and otherwise come up with a smorgasboard of alchemical ingredients. He makes a Craft (alchemy) check, and can then buy as many ingredients as he wants as long as their combined scarcity rating is less than or equal to the result. Most apothecaries don’t carry around too many raw ingredients, since it gets pretty heavy most of the time, and rely on what they can find in the environment. In general, each portion of an ingredient weighs 1/2 lb. He can only find ingredients of a grade that he can use at the time.

Alchemist’s Softball (Ex): At level 2, the apothecary’s years in Little League pay off, as he gets better at lobbing projectiles. He adds his Int modifier to ranged attack rolls with splash weapons including concoctions made with an acid base. In addition, he can draw and throw as many in a full attack action as his base attack bonus would normally allow (although this won’t really matter for a few more levels). He takes iterative attack penalties on each consecutive attack as normal.

A Nose for Limestone (Ex): At level 2, the apothecary can also make a Survival check when scavenging for ingredients, and add the result to his Craft (alchemy) check to determine the ingredients he finds with an hour’s work.

Novice Ingredients: At level 3, the apothecary can use these ingredients with his alchemy. Novice ingredients have a scarcity rating of 2 and a Craft (alchemy) DC of 5.

• Coffee (Earth/Fire): The target becomes really hyper, repressing fatigue and exhaustion for the duration of the effect. However, they find it hard to focus on things and take a -1 penalty per 4 ranks in Craft (alchemy) on Will saves and Concentration checks.
• Fat (Earth/Fire): The target packs on the blubber, massively increasing their weight. They're treated as if they were a size category larger for the purposes of bull rushes and grapples. At 11 ranks, 16 ranks, and 21 ranks of Craft (alchemy), they're treated as if they were an additional size category larger, although they don't actually take up that much space. They take a corresponding penalty on AC and Hide checks relative to their new pseudo-size.
• Feather (Air): The target becomes as light as a metaphorical feather. They're treated as if they were a size category smaller for bull rushes and grapples. In addition, they automatically take no damage from falls as they float on the air all the way down, and gain a +10 bonus on Jump checks. At 11 ranks, 16 ranks, and 21 ranks of Craft (alchemy) they're treated as an additional size category smaller, although they also gain an additional +10 bonus to Jump each time.
• Fishscale (Water): Lungs turn into gills and hands become fins. The target turns into... a fish. They shrink one size category, and gain a natural swim speed equal to their land speed. They get a secondary natural tail attack that deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage. They can breathe water, and have to hold their breath above it. They gain a -4 penalty to Strength, but gain a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity for every 3 ranks of Craft (alchemy). This is a transformational ingredient.
• Lye (Fire/Water): The target is coated in a viciously corrosive fluid that eats off one temporary effect every round that is clinging to the person, such as web, grease, glitterdust, entangle, black tentacles, and so on. If there is no such effect on them, they instead take 1d6 acid damage for every 3 ranks of Craft (alchemy) each round.
• Moss (Earth/Water): The target starts to grow moss on their skin, which lets them slowly creep up walls like a moss-like human. They gain a climb speed equal to their land speed, and can cling to ceilings as well as walls. Bright lights blind them just like a drow.
• Pumice (Earth/Air): Air starts to bubble up inside of them, and carry them away. The target starts to float away. They float upwards at a rate of 10ft. per round, and can move 5ft. horizontally as a move action. They automatically negate their own weight, and can carry up to 20 lb per
rank in Craft (alchemy) besides.
• Root (Earth/Water): Roots grow from their feet into the ground. They get fast healing 1 for every 6 ranks in Craft (alchemy) while on solid earth, but they're treated as if affected by an entangle spell while it happens.
• Sap (Earth/Water): As their blood turns into a sap-like substance, their reactions slow down. They take a -3 penalty to Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and their initiative score for every 3 ranks of Craft (alchemy). That being said, they gain moderate (50%) fortification against critical hits and precision-based damage.
• Tea (Earth/Water): The target is soothed deeply, and calms down. They lose the effects of any heightened state of emotion, like a rage, a frenzy, confusion, or even something like morale bonuses. This even temporarily calms a permanent effect like insanity for the duration of the concoction's effects.
• Vitreous Humour (Water/Air): The target gains insane myopia, and becomes incredibly far-sighted. They gain a -20 penalty to Spot checks, but gain a cumulative +10 bonus to Spot checks for every 50ft. away they look. They don't take any penalties for range increments with ranged weapons outside of 100ft., although inside that range they take a -4 range penalty to attack rolls, both melee and ranged. If you have at least 13 ranks in Craft (alchemy), they can make sneak attacks, skirmish attacks, and sudden strikes at any distance.

Basic Bases: At level 4, the apothecary can use these bases with his alchemy. Basic bases have a scarcity rating of 2 and a Craft (alchemy) DC of 4.

• Ethanol
• Helium
• Salt
• Scorpion Venom

NOTE: It’s not immediately obvious, but the whole point of elemental affinities on the ingredients is that later bases cause special metapotion effects when combined with certain elements. Like salt + water makes an Extend Spell effect or some ****. This is not obvious right now because I only have the first tier written out.

The Most Dangerous Game (Ex): At level 4, the apothecary is used to handling incredibly dangerous substances. He never accidentally poisons himself when applying a poison (including a venom-based concoction) to a weapon, he gains a +5 circumstance bonus to saves against poison, and he can draw a venom from his stores and apply it to an adjacent ally’s weapon (or his own) all as a move action.

Standard Ingredients: At level 5, the apothecary can use these ingredients with his alchemy. Standard ingredients have a scarcity rating of 3 and a Craft (alchemy) DC of 6.

• Beak (Air):
• Chameleon Skin (Earth):
• Flesh (Earth):
• Gold (Earth):
• Gunpowder (Earth/Fire):
• Ivory (Earth):
• Lead (Earth):
• Leaf (Earth/Fire):
• Limestone (Earth):
• Mandrake (Earth/Water):
• Wool (Earth):

Extra Ingredient: At level 6, level 12, and level 18, the apothecary can use one additional ingredient in his concoctions (up to six at level 18, including the mandatory base). To determine the DC to mix the potion, they add up all of the ingredients’ DCs.

Steady (Hand) Under Pressure (Ex): At level 6, the apothecary can take 10 on the Craft (alchemy) check to mix concoctions, even if stress or distraction would normally prevent him from doing so.

Better Bases: At level 7, the apothecary can use these bases with his alchemy. Better bases have a scarcity rating of 3 and a Craft (alchemy) DC of 6.

• Sugar
• Vinegar
• Water Vapour

Impressive Ingredients: At level 7, the apothecary can use these ingredients with his alchemy. Impressive ingredients have a scarcity rating of 4 and a Craft (alchemy) DC of 7.

• Bone (Earth):
• Brimstone (Earth/Fire):
• Crystal (Earth/Air):
• Ectoplasm (Fire/Air):
• Ginseng (Earth/Water):
• Grease (Fire/Water):
• Methane (Air):
• Moonstone (Earth/Air):
• Oil (Fire/Water):
• Seaweed (Air):
• Silver (Earth):

Aftertaste (Su): At level 8, the apothecary can choose for one of the ingredients of his choice in a concoction to only kick in a round after the rest of the concoction takes effect. This means it starts on the same person’s turn that applied the concoction in the first place.

Left-Handed Stir (Su): At level 8, the apthecary can choose to ignore the affinity of one of the ingredients used in his concoctions.

Double-Sized Ingredients: At level 9, the apothecary can use these ingredients with his alchemy. Double-sized ingredients have a scarcity rating of 5 and a Craft (alchemy) DC of 8.

• Butterfly Wing (Earth/Air):
• Clay (Earth/Water):
• Incense (Fire/Air):
• Iron (Earth):
• Magnesium (Earth/Fire):
• Mushroom (Earth/Water):
• Oxygen (Air):
• Sandstone (Earth):

Brilliant Bases: At level 10, the apothecary can use these bases with his alchemy. Basic bases have a scarcity rating of 4 and a Craft (alchemy) DC of 8.

• Chalk
• Milk
• Neon
• Wyvern Venom

KISS (Su): At level 10, as long as an apothecary only uses two ingredients (including their base) in a concoction, they can mix it in a single full-round action.

Exciting Ingredients: At level 11, the apothecary can use these ingredients with his alchemy. Exciting ingredients have a scarcity rating of 6 and a Craft (alchemy) DC of 9.

• Ash (Fire):
• Flower (Earth/Water):
• Krypton (Air):
• Opal (Earth):
• Opium (Earth/Air):
• Pepper (Earth/Fire):
• Psilocybin (Earth/Air):
• Salvinorin (Earth/Water):

Double Trouble (Su): At level 12, whenever an apothecary mixes a concoction, he can make a second indentical concoction with the same five minutes and the same Craft (alchemy) check. He needs seperate ingredients for both.

Breathtaking Bases: At level 13, the apothecary can use these bases with his alchemy. Breathtaking bases have a scarcity rating of 5 and a Craft (alchemy) DC of 10.

• Soil
• Smoke

Fantastic Ingredients: At level 13, the apothecary can use these ingredients with his alchemy. Exciting ingredients have a scarcity rating of 7 and a Craft (alchemy) DC of 10.

• Acorn (Earth/Water):
• Glass (Earth/Fire):
• Ichor (Water/Air):
• Quicksand (Earth/Water):
• Rainwater (Water/Air):
• Sal Ammoniac (Earth/Fire):

A Dark and Stormy Night (Su): At level 14, whenever the apothecary is mixing a concoction in an open-air venure, he can choose to have a thunderstorm occur overhead. The thunderstorm takes 30 seconds (5 rounds) to form and 10 minutes to dissipate after the concoction is finished. Thunderstorms are accompanied by hurricane-level winds, heavy rain and hail, and the normal drop in visibility and random lightning bolts (as described in the PHB). The apothecary is immune to all of the effects of his own storm.

Bibasic Concoctions (Su): At level 14, the apothecary can combine two bases in a single concoction. They pick one of the bases to determine the form the concoction takes, but they can use the individual qualities and special reactions of both bases equally in the finished concoction.

Phenomenal Ingredients: At level 15, the apothecary can use these ingredients with his alchemy. Phenomenal ingredients have a scarcity rating of 8 and a Craft (alchemy) DC of 11.

• Jellyfish Skin (Water/Air):
• Liquorice (Earth):
• Mercury (Water/Air):
• Nectar (Earth/Water):
• Plasma (Fire/Air):

Bitching Bases: At level 16, the apothecary can use these bases with his alchemy. Bitching bases have a scarcity rating of 6 and a Craft (alchemy) DC of 12.

• Lemon Juice
• Syrup
• Xenon

Left-Handed Swirl (Su): At level 16, the apothecary can apply the left-handed stir ability to every ingredient in his concoctions aside from the bases. In addition, he can bestow an additional elemental affinity on the concoction.

Transcendant Ingredients: At level 17, the apothecary can use these ingredients with his alchemy. Transcendant ingredients have a scarcity rating of 9 and a Craft (alchemy) DC of 12.

• Egg (Water/Fire):
• Ink (Water/Earth):
• Meteorite (Fire/Air):
• Mould (Water/Earth):
• Radon (Air):
• Sulfur (Fire/Air):

A Hint of Paprika (Su): At level 18, the apothecary discovers an ancient Chinese secret and no longer is required to use a base in his concoctions, although he still can if he wants. If he doesn’t use a base, the default form of the concoction is as if water was used as the base. There is no increase to the Craft (alchemy) DC from water, however, and it doesn’t take up an ingredient slot in the mix.

Brütal Bäses: At level 19, the apothecary can use these bases with his alchemy. Brütal bäses have a scarcity rating of 7 and a Craft (alchemy) DC of 14.

• Argon
• Blood
• Jellyfish Venom

God’s Own Ingredients: At level 19, the apothecary can use these ingredients with his alchemy. God’s own ingredients have a scarcity rating of 10 and a Craft (alchemy) DC of 13.

• Ambrosia (Water/Fire/Air):
• Dry Ice (Earth/Air):
• Feldspar (Earth):
• Quartz (Earth/Air):
• Vibhuti (Fire/Air):

Magnum Opus (Su): At level 20, the apothecary wins D&D. He also becomes immortal to old age, immune to disease and poison, and can turn inanimate objects to gold as a standard action touch attack. He can be resurrected with no XP cost.

Eagle
2009-12-01, 07:35 PM
Novice (level 3) ingredients are up.

Pie Guy
2009-12-01, 08:50 PM
Concoctions should go bad after a day or something, so that they can't have 50 of each availible at any time.

Eagle
2009-12-01, 09:09 PM
Concoctions should go bad after a day or something, so that they can't have 50 of each availible at any time.

Why not? ...

Pie Guy
2009-12-01, 09:21 PM
Why not? ...

Because then you'd have to come up with a reason you can't sell them, and most other casting-ish classes have some sort of perday mechanic.

Eagle
2009-12-01, 09:30 PM
Because then you'd have to come up with a reason you can't sell them

1. See the note at the top regarding the economy. DMs using this class have two choices: use a sensible economy where money isn't directly correlated with character power, or give a blanket declaration that the stuff is monetarily worthless.


, and most other casting-ish classes have some sort of perday mechanic.

2. So?

imp_fireball
2009-12-01, 11:25 PM
1. See the note at the top regarding the economy. DMs using this class have two choices: use a sensible economy where money isn't directly correlated with character power, or give a blanket declaration that the stuff is monetarily worthless.
2. So?

I still personally feel you should take measures to balance it out, man, sorry.

Don't expect GMs to know how to properly meta-game.

Glimbur
2009-12-01, 11:42 PM
Sad as I am to say it, Magnum Opus isn't really that powerful. Immune to death by old age very rarely comes up, raise with no XP cost saves 20K worth of diamonds, and turning things into gold is the only really interesting part if the guidelines at the top of the class are followed.

Regarding turning in to gold... does it work on magic items? Is there a weight limit? Is it a standard action? It seems to be a good way to destroy objects... a rope bridge made of gold will not hold and a golden ship will sink. If I can turn a cloud in to gold suddenly this ability gets scary... but not actually overpowered for level 20.

Milskidasith
2009-12-02, 01:02 AM
None of the ingredients so far look that useful... I mean, sure, turning somebody into a fish is a save or die, but besides that they are all poison (everything is immune to poison! Everything!) and, well, it's just a bunch of pros and cons on everything; there is rarely an absolute buff or absolute curse. Also, it's odd that some of these require a fortitude save; root, for example, should be a reflex save, since, well, it's entangle with benefits for the person entangled.

Also, how are you going to come up with the benefits for so many different bases? There are only so many kinds of attack.

Fortuna
2009-12-02, 01:34 AM
Interesting idea, but it needs liquid nitrogen, antimatter, and plasma.

sigurd
2009-12-02, 01:53 AM
Poison is a much bigger deal in Pathfinder.

I think this would make a good beginnings for an alchemist\sage. I think you basically need a spellbook for concoctions and you have to really think about the time frame of making these things. Differing concoctions will take different amounts of time.


Sigurd

Milskidasith
2009-12-02, 01:54 AM
Poison is a much bigger deal in Pathfinder.


It didn't specify pathfinder, so I assumed it was 3.5. How many people even play pathfinder compared to 3.5 on these boards, anyway?

sigurd
2009-12-02, 01:56 AM
The pathfinder comment wasn't a criticism but a suggestion as to where the idea has more merit.

Poison in 3.5 is sort of a knife at a gunfight.


Sigurd

Eagle
2009-12-02, 02:52 AM
Gaseous, injected (injury) and imbibed (potion) concoctions are the only ones that count as poisons. Acids and granular concoctions aren't poison and just need a touch or ranged touch attack + save.

As for the level 20 ability– who the hell cares? It's level 20. Nobody actually plays at that level, and if they do then they don't especially care about any 'capstone'. It's a bull**** ability which says, "hey look, I got to level 20! I'm awesome!"


Don't expect GMs to know how to properly meta-game.

Which is why I came out and told them how to do it. Hell, I don't even care if people do start selling their concoctions, because it takes time to forage for ingredients and make them. Selling concoctions is a job and there are already better paying jobs in D&D. Wall of iron? Fabricate?


It didn't specify pathfinder, so I assumed it was 3.5. How many people even play pathfinder compared to 3.5 on these boards, anyway?

It's 3.5. Pathfinder is a terrible derivative which compounds the problems.


None of the ingredients so far look that useful... I mean, sure, turning somebody into a fish is a save or die, but besides that they are all poison (everything is immune to poison! Everything!) and, well, it's just a bunch of pros and cons on everything; there is rarely an absolute buff or absolute curse. Also, it's odd that some of these require a fortitude save; root, for example, should be a reflex save, since, well, it's entangle with benefits for the person entangled.

That's sort of the point. They have a crapload of effects available to them, especially at the higher levels, but they're all situational. They're good in some places, bad in others. The trick is to come prepared for the fight with concoctions that will do what you want them to do. You can make a ton of them, all day, every day, but you can only use so many in a given amount of time. So in an actual battle, you'll need to pick and choose what ingredients you use to get exactly the result you want. The same ingredient can be used in totally different situations for a totally different result. By design they all have a plus and a minus.


Also, how are you going to come up with the benefits for so many different bases? There are only so many kinds of attack.

There are five basic (heh) kinds of bases. Higher tiers of bases get synergy effects with different elemental affinities in the ingredients used.

Ashtagon
2009-12-02, 03:03 AM
Preventing alchemists from selling their products for money isn't meta-gaming, it's GM fiat, and breaks suspension of disbelief badly.

Metagaming: Using knowledge that is only be available to the players (ie. not known to the characters) in order guide character decisions. GMs sometimes do this too, to aid the NPCs after learning what the PCs have done but before the NPC could logically have discovered it.

GM fiat: Saying you can't do this, just because.

If a character is capable of creating something generally useful at little cost to himself and that has no meaningful expiry date, he will try to sell it. It's called common sense, and economics 101. This is why wizards and clerics cast continual light spells to power the town street-lighting system. The easiest way to prevent this is to give such mixtures a short shelf-life.

Milskidasith
2009-12-02, 03:09 AM
Gaseous, injected (injury) and imbibed (potion) concoctions are the only ones that count as poisons. Acids and granular concoctions aren't poison and just need a touch or ranged touch attack + save.

Granular is explicitly stated to be a poison in the text, so, you know, I assumed it was a poison. Granted, a RTA for one type is nice, but you have a massive number of bases and only one of them is even useful because everything else is a poison.


As for the level 20 ability– who the hell cares? It's level 20. Nobody actually plays at that level, and if they do then they don't especially care about any 'capstone'. It's a bull**** ability which says, "hey look, I got to level 20! I'm awesome!"


Plenty of people play there, and even if they didn't, it's no excuse for terrible game design.



Which is why I came out and told them how to do it. Hell, I don't even care if people do start selling their concoctions, because it takes time to forage for ingredients and make them. Selling concoctions is a job and there are already better paying jobs in D&D. Wall of iron? Fabricate?


I'm not sure what the scarcity rating means, but using worse game design (the wall of iron cheese) as an explanation for why your bad design isn't bad is pretty bad.


That's sort of the point. They have a crapload of effects available to them, especially at the higher levels, but they're all situational.

There's a difference between "situational" and "probably going to benefit the enemy as much as it hurts them." Most of yours fall into the second category; nothing I saw (besides turning into a fish for the fact that it kills enemies on a failed fort save) was that useful of an effect, and while the benefits weren't usually great either, they made up for the minimal damage you caused. Hell, spells are situational, but they don't have drawbacks.



They're good in some places, bad in others. The trick is to come prepared for the fight with concoctions that will do what you want them to do. You can make a ton of them, all day, every day, but you can only use so many in a given amount of time. So in an actual battle, you'll need to pick and choose what ingredients you use to get exactly the result you want. The same ingredient can be used in totally different situations for a totally different result. By design they all have a plus and a minus.


Spells are situational without requiring a plus and a minus to every spell. Even further, spells don't target a common immunity in almost all cases (poison) and always target the same save (fortitude) which means that not only do spells have the situationality you want from this class, but they can also fit into situations besides attacking... err... what has a bad fortitude save and doesn't have an easy way of getting poison immunity? Maybe rogues without any magic gear?


There are five basic (heh) kinds of bases. Higher tiers of bases get synergy effects with different elemental affinities in the ingredients used.

This is an utterly meaningless statement because you don't give any examples. I have no clue what the synergy is referring to, and my best guess is that you can have your concoction be both an imbibed and inhaled poison at once, doubling the crappiness.

Eagle
2009-12-02, 03:15 AM
If a character is capable of creating something generally useful at little cost to himself and that has no meaningful expiry date, he will try to sell it. It's called common sense, and economics 101. This is why wizards and clerics cast continual light spells to power the town street-lighting system. The easiest way to prevent this is to give such mixtures a short shelf-life.

Yes, but I don't especially care one way or the other if an apothecary sells his concoctions. What I told the DM was not to make a big deal out of it. If it's going to cause problems for the game because you insist on having an economy that in any way models a real-life economy, then go ahead and say by fiat that the concoctions and ingredients are worthless. On the other hand, if you can accept things like wizards and clerics making low-cost magical crap as the rules already stand and selling them without destroying your game, go ahead and let the apothecary sell his potions, like an apothecary seriously should be able to do. I mean honestly, why would a potion-maker make potions that only last for five-minutes?

Wealth-by-level is a lame-ass system that does so much more harm than good that it's not even funny. It makes this entire concept difficult to accept, which is stupid because it's an archetype that is in tons of fantasy. If you insist on shackling your game to it, then go ahead and say that the stuff's worth nothing and get on with playing the game. If you can accept that players can actually get real money and not have the game world blow up because of it, then let them sell their conoctions. I seriously don't care one way or the other because that's an issue for you to take up with your campaign setting and has nothing to do with this class.

Eagle
2009-12-02, 03:22 AM
Granular is explicitly stated to be a poison in the text, so, you know, I assumed it was a poison. Granted, a RTA for one type is nice, but you have a massive number of bases and only one of them is even useful because everything else is a poison.


• Sand: The concoction takes the form of a granular substance that can be thrown an adjacent target as an attack action. No attack roll is required, but instead the target may make a Reflex save to negate the effects of the concoction.

Where exactly does it say that it's a poison? Am I misreading something that I wrote?


Plenty of people play there, and even if they didn't, it's no excuse for terrible game design.

No, they don't. And the people that do don't give two bits about any level 20 ability short of level 9+ spells. You're an alchemist. You discovered the philosopher's stone and now you're immortal and can turn things to gold. It seems pretty straightforward to me.


I'm not sure what the scarcity rating means, but using worse game design (the wall of iron cheese) as an explanation for why your bad design isn't bad is pretty bad.

Don't blame me because you couldn't be bothered to read how the class works.


There's a difference between "situational" and "probably going to benefit the enemy as much as it hurts them." Most of yours fall into the second category; nothing I saw (besides turning into a fish for the fact that it kills enemies on a failed fort save) was that useful of an effect, and while the benefits weren't usually great either, they made up for the minimal damage you caused. Hell, spells are situational, but they don't have drawbacks.

These aren't spells. There's an ingredient already written that gives you a bonus to speed and makes you especially vulnerable to caltrops. Both sides are potentially useful, but in totally different circumstances.


Spells are situational without requiring a plus and a minus to every spell. Even further, spells don't target a common immunity in almost all cases (poison) and always target the same save (fortitude) which means that not only do spells have the situationality you want from this class, but they can also fit into situations besides attacking... err... what has a bad fortitude save and doesn't have an easy way of getting poison immunity? Maybe rogues without any magic gear?

Granular concoctions target Reflex, and don't count as poisons.


This is an utterly meaningless statement because you don't give any examples. I have no clue what the synergy is referring to, and my best guess is that you can have your concoction be both an imbibed and inhaled poison at once, doubling the crappiness.

Admittedly this is so, since I don't have any higher-level bases written out yet. As I described in the spoiler for the second tier of them, though, they're going to be similar to the first tier but with special reactions for various elemental ingredients. The example I gave was something like salt base (granular) + a water ingredient makes the concoction last longer.

Milskidasith
2009-12-02, 07:54 AM
]No, they don't. And the people that do don't give two bits about any level 20 ability short of level 9+ spells. You're an alchemist. You discovered the philosopher's stone and now you're immortal and can turn things to gold. It seems pretty straightforward to me.


Now you're just being silly. If you don't want a capstone ability, then don't put one in. Putting one in that sucks is pointless. It's the same way it's "good design" that the monk has a class feature every level, and yet still sucks; all your shiny and useless features do are make players think your class is better than it is.

Seriously, is that your argument? "Since this class is weaker than wizards, I can get away with having a crappy capstone because nobody wants to play it at high levels?" If nobody wants to play it at high levels, maybe you should try rethinking the class.


Don't blame me because you couldn't be bothered to read how the class works.


Scarcity rating is, honestly, a worthless feature. Since you already have a level requirement, there's no reason to limit what he can find based on scavenging around. I'm not sure if it's a (poor) attempt at giving him something akin to spellcasters spells per day, or just a bit of fluff that you threw into the mechanics, but it would be easier if you just said he could buy a component pouch and use everything, because honestly, you're never going to run out of materials with even a mildly optimized craft (alchemy) skill unless you routinely make potions using five different high level ingredients, and even then you've got a ton of them per day if you spend eight hours scavenging while your arcane buddies prepare spells.



These aren't spells. There's an ingredient already written that gives you a bonus to speed and makes you especially vulnerable to caltrops. Both sides are potentially useful, but in totally different circumstances.

And this is a sentence. Pointing out the obvious isn't useful. The thing is, the benefits and drawbacks are so minimal that it's really not worth using them. Woo, I can make an enemy take more damage from mundane gear! Woo, I can give the enemy a very minor penalty on AC! The only thing about this class that is remotely powerful is that you can get a higher DC on your "save or be minimally annoyed"s because it's based on your ranks in craft (alchemy).


Granular concoctions target Reflex, and don't count as poisons.

Congratulations, you now have the useless ability to target reflex saves. It would be useful, if you didn't have to put your lightly armored, medium BAB, d6 hit die class right next to the sword wielding maniac in order to throw your concoction in his face. Since most of the abilities are debuffs, not save or dies (the only two I can find are turn into a fish, for obvious reasons, and pumice, because floating away does remove you from the battlefield if you have no ranged options), you're going to get smacked until you die the next round.



Admittedly this is so, since I don't have any higher-level bases written out yet. As I described in the spoiler for the second tier of them, though, they're going to be similar to the first tier but with special reactions for various elemental ingredients. The example I gave was something like salt base (granular) + a water ingredient makes the concoction last longer.

That seems interesting, although extend isn't particularly useful with this class, since ranks in alchemy means that even from first level your potions last four rounds, so you never really need to worry about them running out.

onthetown
2009-12-02, 10:48 AM
I'm not great at balancing and knowing how the exact mechanics of classes work, but I can say that it's an interesting class. The level 20 ability does seem a little underpowered, more like a trophy than anything else, but it's a trophy I wouldn't mind if I worked to get my character to level 20. That said... maybe add a little more to it? The Midas touch and immunability to poison are the only things about Magnum Opus that I see as relevant to the class itself, and they're not worth going to level 20 for unless you REALLY like turning things into gold or have a DM obsessed with poison.

As I said, it's an interesting class, and I'll probably add it to my list of homebrews to try out. I don't think I would take the class for the full 20 levels, though, unless I was in a roleplay-heavy campaign. It strikes me as a class that would be better used to accent a character's profession or hobbies rather than be the defining class of that character.

Those are just my opinions, though. Hope they were helpful somehow.