"Sleep, those little slices of death; Oh how I loathe them." Sleep deprivation & PCs

[Eg0Death]

D&D doesn't seem to have rules for sleep deprivation. I know there are rules for Fatigue and Exhaustion, but these only affect physical traits (STR and DEX) and completely ignore everything else. I know from personal experience that after about 72 hours I'm a complete wreck. (It doesn't usually take that long though.) Basic arithmetic becomes difficult, I make foolish choices, I'm more emotionally unstable, and I might even experience hallucinations.

Also, these long stretches of sleeplessness were not usually accompanied by great physical exertion. I went to Penn State for a few years and worked as a security guard at night and on the weekends. (Don't laugh, I looked pretty damn studly in my polyester uniform.) Strength was barely affected, if at all, and on those rare occasions when I actually had to I could sprint despite my sleep deprived status.

I propose that penalties for sleep deprivation (or trance deprivation for elves) should be different than those for physical exhaustion. If I take a 20 mile hike through the mountains with a 60 lb pack I'm physically exhausted. If I stay awake for a 72 hour D&D marathon my brain is mush.

Does anyone know of any good rules for sleep deprivation?

[Frog Dragon]

I haven't seen any sleep deprivation rules, but here's what I would do.

If you don't get the rest you need (8 hours for humans, 4 for elves, so on) within 24 hours you must roll a fort save (DC 12). If you succeed no effects. If you don't you take a -1 to all mental stats and must roll a DC 12 fort save each hour or fall asleep.

That would be the lowest level of sleep deprivation. Then you could just up the DC, the time required staying awake to have to make saves and the penalties.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Take a look at these:

Dreamless (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43363)

and

Mental Fatigue & Exhaustion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42535)

[Eg0Death]

Thanks, both of you! I think I might add a Charisma penalty as well. Lack of sleep often results in crankiness and/or gidiness.

[Solaris]

I haven't seen any sleep deprivation rules, but here's what I would do.

If you don't get the rest you need (8 hours for humans, 4 for elves, so on) within 24 hours you must roll a fort save (DC 12). If you succeed no effects. If you don't you take a -1 to all mental stats and must roll a DC 12 fort save each hour or fall asleep.

That would be the lowest level of sleep deprivation. Then you could just up the DC, the time required staying awake to have to make saves and the penalties.

Will, not Fort.

[Demented]

The generally constant theme between Thirst, Starvation, and Suffocation are these rules:

You last for a base period of time, plus a period of time multiplied by your constitution modifier. You then make a constitution check that increases by 1 for each additional period of time. Failing the check means suffering the penalty.

{table]Table 1-1|
Suffocation|
Slow[br]Suffocation|
Thirst|
Starvation|
Sleep

Base Period|
None|
6 Hours/10 ft. cube[br]per Medium character|
1 Day|
3 Days|
1 Day

Period per point[br]of Constitution|
2 Rounds|
None|
1 Hour|
None|
2 Hours

Base Constitution[br]Check DC|
None|
None|
10|
10|
10

Period to make[br]new check|
None|
None|
Each Hour|
Each Day|
Every 8 Hours

Penalty|
Special|
1d6 Nonlethal|
1d6 Nonlethal[br]and Fatigued|
1d6 Nonlethal[br]and Fatigued|
Special[/table]

Suffocation is essentially death in 3 rounds.
For sleep...
Most suggestions are 1 point of Int, Wis, and Cha damage each day.
Lord Iames' spell (in Vorpal's post) would probably suggest Mentally Fatigued and Mentally Exhausted as new conditions.
Dazed, Fascinated, Unconscious, and later Confused are good conditions to throw in.

[Debihuman]

Why not simply have the PCs be Exhuasted until they get 8 hours of rest? Extended exhaustion would lead to unconciousness which would last for 8 hours which would be treated as getting 8 hours of rest or for 4 hours which would leave the PC fatigued. Do we really need a new mechanic for this?

Debby

[Anonymouswizard]

Why not simply have the PCs be Exhuasted until they get 8 hours of rest? Extended exhaustion would lead to unconciousness which would last for 8 hours which would be treated as getting 8 hours of rest or for 4 hours which would leave the PC fatigued. Do we really need a new mechanic for this?

Debby

I', so tired I can't think straight... Oh, wait, I can.

Or, more simply: yes, we do.

Anonymouswizard

[Lubirio]

My sleep deprivation relates the mental fatigue/exhaustion to what Lord Iames Osari posted a while ago, but these are my proposed rules for sleep deprivation nonetheless:

If a character hasn't slept/tranced for a sufficient amount of time (8 and 4 hours respectively) for at least 24 hours, it needs to make a Will save (DC 12 +1 for each previous check) every four hours, or become mentally fatigued.
If a character has become mentally fatigued as a result of sleep deprivation, it needs to make a Will save (DC 14 +2 for each previous check) every hour or become mentally exhausted.
If a character has become mentally exhausted as a result of sleep deprivation, it needs to make a Will Save (DC 20 +5 for each previous check) every 15 minutes or fall asleep/go into trance for double the normal period of time (16 and 8 hours respectively), ridding it of all mental fatigue/exhaustion effects.

Clearly, Vaarsuvius shows these effects perfectly. :smalltongue:

[Eg0Death]

Why not simply have the PCs be Exhuasted until they get 8 hours of rest? Extended exhaustion would lead to unconciousness which would last for 8 hours which would be treated as getting 8 hours of rest or for 4 hours which would leave the PC fatigued. Do we really need a new mechanic for this?

Debby

Yes. I see sleep deprivation as distinct from physical exhaustion. I plan to have some PCs trapped in a haunted location where it is nigh impossible to get any sleep due to the haunting. Mind affecting spells/spell like abilities should become harder to resist the longer they go without sleep. They will also become more susceptible to possession. Muahahahahaha!

Rather than just wing it for this particular encounter I thought it would be a good idea to get some ideas for a Standard Sleep Deprivation Rule (hereafter referred to as SSDR). There are a lot of good ideas here!

[Debihuman]

Well you could have mental exhaustion which would affect Wis and Int rather than Str and Dex and would ultimately lead to Confusion. I think the K.I.S.S. principle would be most useful in something like this.

The bigger question is: how will this affect the game. If all the PCs fall unconscious from lack of sleep what happens? Also, elves don't sleep although they do need to rest.

Debby

[Latronis]

You can't WILL yourself to not become mentally fatigued due to sleep deprivation. It's a physical side effect.

A will save is just insanely illogical. It's gotta be fort.

Also mental stat penalties don't affect concentration in anyway. (though fatigue and exhaustion might)

So I'd force a 'sleep deprived' character to make concentration checks for mental tasks (such as spellcasting)

[waterpenguin43]

The problem is; Sleep Deprivation affects us differently. Personally, I would lose Cha and Dex due to sleep deprivation. I get dizzy and either giddy, cranky or paranoid. Cranky in the morning, giddy or paranoid in the night (depending on what's keeping me up.).

[Eg0Death]

The bigger question is: how will this affect the game. If all the PCs fall unconscious from lack of sleep what happens? Also, elves don't sleep although they do need to rest.

Debby

Yes, what WILL happen when they all fall asleep? *evil grin*

From the PHB

Elves do not sleep, as members of the other common races do. Instead, an elf meditates in a deep trance for 4 hours a day. An elf resting in this fashion gains the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep.

I suppose it's technically Trance Deprivation for elves, but the same penalties would apply. (That makes the acronym longer. Sandard Sleep or Trance Deprivation Rule = SSoTDR)



Also mental stat penalties don't affect concentration in anyway. (though fatigue and exhaustion might)

So I'd force a 'sleep deprived' character to make concentration checks for mental tasks (such as spellcasting)

Yeah, another disconect between the game and reality. (And just when I was so close to finally getting the two to mesh!) Taking your Constitution into account when attempting to concentrate on something suggests that those with ADHD have a Constitution of 1. Meh. What to do . . .


The problem is; Sleep Deprivation affects us differently. Personally, I would lose Cha and Dex due to sleep deprivation. I get dizzy and either giddy, cranky or paranoid. Cranky in the morning, giddy or paranoid in the night (depending on what's keeping me up.).

Lots of different things affect many of us in different ways. I think we can agree that we're looking for a more general rule and not one that needs to be tailored to each character.

[Lubirio]

You can't WILL yourself to not become mentally fatigued due to sleep deprivation. It's a physical side effect.

A will save is just insanely illogical. It's gotta be fort.

Also mental stat penalties don't affect concentration in anyway. (though fatigue and exhaustion might)

So I'd force a 'sleep deprived' character to make concentration checks for mental tasks (such as spellcasting)

Notice Will save is determined by your wisdom, which is lowered by the effects of rest deprivation, and since the DC is also increased, it becomes increasingly harder to succeed on the save anyway.

Though I might just make the penalty on Int and Wis affect Concentration as well as all saves, and if you're mentally exhausted, you could be automatically (physically) fatigued.

(The Acronym could just be SRDR, for Standard Rest Deprivation Rule. :smallbiggrin:)

[charl]

How about having Elves get hit a little harder by not trancing? They could start experiencing hallucinations faster or act even freakier than other races would, to show that their trance is not a physical but rather a mental requirement.

[Latronis]

Notice Will save is determined by your wisdom, which is lowered by the effects of rest deprivation, and since the DC is also increased, it becomes increasingly harder to succeed on the save anyway.

Though I might just make the penalty on Int and Wis affect Concentration as well as all saves, and if you're mentally exhausted, you could be automatically (physically) fatigued.

(The Acronym could just be SRDR, for Standard Rest Deprivation Rule. :smallbiggrin:)

Well yes I think you should become mentally and physically fatigued at the same time. Your mind afterall needs a functioning body to perform at it's peak, and your body is less effective when you can't think straight.

I understand why a will save is used.. mechanically.. that creates the death spiral effect which makes you wanna actually get some rest when you need it. But my problem was with using a will save or mental resistance to ignore the effects of what of is a physical problem. You can will yourself to stay awake. You can't exactly will yourself to not to be tired and not be effected by not getting enough rest.

After say a 12 hour shift you may exhausted, but you can certainly will yourself awake long enough to drive home. Just don't surprised when you get pulled over and hit with a breath test because you were driving like a drunk.

[Lubirio]

My idea is by far not perfect, and I intend to improve it, but unless you give me specific guidelines to do it, I don't see how I can incorporate that. You need a DC 5 concentration check to do any action, which even a really weak person can pull of taking 10, and the penalties to concentration are double those for Int and Wis. The saves for getting fatigued and exhausted are Fort, and for staying awake Will. Sound good?
:smallredface:

[Eg0Death]

Allow me to quote the PHB some more.
page 33


Fortitude: Fortitude saves reflect physical toughness. They incorporate stamina, ruggedness, physique, bulk, metabolism, resistance, immunity, and other similiar physical qualities. If it seems like something that a "tough guy" would be good at, it's a Fortitude save.


Will: Will saves reflect inner strength. They incorporate willpower, mental stability, the power of the mind, levelheadedness, determination, self-confidence, self-awareness, the superego, and resistance to temptation. If it seems like something that a confident or determined person would be good at, it's a Will save.

"Mental stability" clinches it for me. I think it should be a Will save.

We're not looking at merely staying awake past 24 hours, we're looking at what happens to a character's faculties after being awake for 24 hours.

@Lubirio: How about Repressed Expression of Mental Functionality as a Result of Rest Deprivation or REEMFaaRoRD? (Now the acronym sounds Nordic!)

[Eg0Death]

How's this look?

Effects of Sleep Deprivation

If a character is awake without rest for 24 hours, make a Will save to avoid Mental Fatigue (DC 15). Repeat every 4 hours. The DC increases by 1 each check after the first. (DC 16 at 28 hours, DC 17 at 32 hours, etc.)

If subject to Mental Fatigue make a Will save every 4 hours to avoid Mental Exhaustion (DC 15). The DC increases by 1 each check after the first.

Mental Fatigue and Mental Exhaustion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42535) were previously defined by Lord Iams Osari.

[Lubirio]

Looks good, but mental exhaustion should need a save every hour, instead of every 4 hours, like fatigue, because once you're fatigued, you get exhausted pretty fast.

Theoretically though, a tenth level Monk with a Wisdom score of 18 can function just fine missing a day's worth of rest: with a will save bonus of +11 he can make a DC of 21 on average, adding up to 6 times 4 hours: 24 hours. :smallbiggrin:

(under my original system though, he could almost function a day and a half without sleep...)

Edit: and if you're mentally exhausted, you're automatically physically fatigued, and if you're physically exhausted, you're automatically mentally fatigued as well, as they're kind of intertwined.

Edit2: The Acronym should be: Repressed Expression of Mental Functionality as a Result of Insufficient Sleep or Trance Duration for an Extended Period of Time or REoEMFaaRoISoTDfaEPoT :smallbiggrin:

[Frog Dragon]

Repressed Expression of Mental Functionality as a Result of Insufficient Sleep or Trance Duration for an Extended Period of Time or REoEMFaaRoISoTDfaEPoT
Picknit. Flying Half-Badger Unicorns taste good spirnkled with a little salt.

[Eg0Death]

Looks good, but mental exhaustion should need a save every hour, instead of every 4 hours, like fatigue, because once you're fatigued, you get exhausted pretty fast.

Theoretically though, a tenth level Monk with a Wisdom score of 18 can function just fine missing a day's worth of rest: with a will save bonus of +11 he can make a DC of 21 on average, adding up to 6 times 4 hours: 24 hours. :smallbiggrin:


I concur on the save frequency.

The monk thing seems appropriate. That whole "mind over matter, snatch the pebble from my hand while you snort this grasshopper through a straw" thing.
:smalltongue:

[Latronis]

Like wise an ancient elven sage could only have a constitution of 2 or so but a wisdom in the 20s. The type of character who cant really walk a flight of stairs without needing to stop for a breather. Would last a long long time before suffering sleep deprivation.

While the epic level young adult dwarven barbarian with a constitution fast approaching 40 has trouble staying awake past the first save.

But that's ok the elf is determined

[Lubirio]

Yes, so the way it is with the 15 +1 for every previous check, works for both, but then from exhausted to sleep would be 16 +2 for every previous check, because it's still hard to stay awake. :smallwink:

[Masterclick]

This doesn't seem to be done very often, but how about making the save DC being a combination of fort and will. Fort would affect the physical problems with low sleep and will would negate the mental/emotional. However failing one save would probably incur a serious penalty on the other.

[Lubirio]

We could do something like if you're fatigued already, the same Will save DC to prevent becoming exhausted is the Fort save DC to prevent becoming physically fatigued. then when you're mentally exhausted you're automatically physically exhausted, and the Will save DC to prevent falling asleep is the same as the Fort save DC to prevent becoming physically exhausted. Make sense like that?

[Eg0Death]

Like wise an ancient elven sage could only have a constitution of 2 or so but a wisdom in the 20s. The type of character who cant really walk a flight of stairs without needing to stop for a breather. Would last a long long time before suffering sleep deprivation.

While the epic level young adult dwarven barbarian with a constitution fast approaching 40 has trouble staying awake past the first save.

But that's ok the elf is determined

The Sleep Deprivation Rule isn't to see if Old Man McSlappy or Bruenor Battlebutt can stay awake. It's to see if they become mentally fatigued if they don't fall asleep. You would still use a Fort save or constitution check to see if they fall asleep.

I don't intend to enforce this rule every time the PCs make camp.

"Oh, I see you've been awake now for 24 hours, 37 minutes and 52 seconds. Let's see if you're mentally fatigued! Oh, you failed! You'll need to make a concentration check to see if you can figure out how to set up your tent."

Althought that would be amusing . . . .

I intend to make the most use of this rule when the PCs are in exceptional circumstances.
They find themsevles trapped in a haunted crypt and unable to rest because of the clanking chains, unearthly moans and ghostly apparitions passing through the walls.

They have to return an antidote ingredient to the king so he can save his poisoned daughter. They have been riding over hill and dale for days in an effort to return it as quickly as possible. They finally arrive and now they have to figure out how to properly mix the ingredients to formulate the antidote.

The group's halfling decided to experiment with some new cooking herbs. Everyone has been afflicted with horrible flatulence and twitching eyeballs and has been unable to sleep for days. Now they must traverse the horrible Stairway of Slippery Falling-Up.


These are homebrew rules, of course, so no Kind Readers will be penalized if they don't use this rule. (Although I will cry and assume you don't love me anymore.) :elan:

[Lubirio]

So, readin this, I think a final version of REoEMFaaRoISoTDfaEPoT is in order?
If so, here goes:

If a character hasn't slept/tranced for a sufficient amount of time (8 and 4 hours respectively) for at least 24 hours, it needs to make a Will save (DC 15 +1 for each previous check) every four hours, starting at 32 hours, or become mentally fatigued.
If a character has become mentally fatigued as a result of sleep deprivation, it needs to make a Will save (DC 15 +1 for each previous check) every two hours or become mentally exhausted, and make a Fortitude save (DC 15 +1 for each previous check) or become physically fatigued.
If a character has become mentally exhausted as a result of sleep deprivation, it automatically becomes physically fatigued as well, and needs to make a Will Save (DC 15 +2 for each previous check) every hour or fall asleep/go into trance for double the normal period of time (16 and 8 hours respectively), ridding it of all mental and physical fatigue/exhaustion effects, the character also needs to make a Fortitude save (DC 15 +1 for each previous check) every hour to see if it becomes physically exhausted beore falling asleep.

Mental Fatigue and Exhaustion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42535) were previously defined by Lord Iames Osari, but in addition, the way it affects concentration is double the way it affects all mental ability scores (-4 and -12). And all skill checks that require at least a move action to do require a concentration check DC (5 + Skill DC), and casting spells requires a concentration check DC (10 + Spell Level).

[Latronis]

awake in that instance = aware, fully capable.

The healthier you are you longer you last before you start to suffer.

It's not a mind effect, it's a result of exertion.

But i give up, I don't care how unrealistic the rules are anymore

[Solaris]

awake in that instance = aware, fully capable.

The healthier you are you longer you last before you start to suffer.

It's not a mind effect, it's a result of exertion.

But i give up, I don't care how unrealistic the rules are anymore

Well, as someone who's entirely more familiar with sleep-deprivation than he'd like to be, having had to operate on a thirty-two hour day for eight months thanks to the way guard shifts interacted with patrol shifts (I got infamous for staying up forty-fifty hours at a time about halfway through), I really gotta tell you that the physical effects come in a lot sooner than the mental effects when you're used to operating without sleep. We had a lot of guys who I'd class as having a Constitution of 13-15 easily, but they couldn't stay up past twenty hours. It wasn't about how tough you were physically, it was about how much you could force yourself to keep on track. Thus? I support resisting sleep-deprivation as being something more mental than physical.

[Lubirio]

So the proposed thing I posted seems viable? Score!

On an unrelated note, I might be incorporating this into a game I'm running.

[Eg0Death]

I will most certainly be using this. Sleepless nights and increased danger of demonic posession await!

[Demented]

Sleep rules that are aligned with the 3.5ed/SRD Thirst/Starvation rules (but a little more intricate):
A character can go without a minimum of one hour of sleep for 16 hours plus a number of hours equal to his Constitution score. An elf can go without a minimum of on hour of trancing for 20 hours plus a number of hours equal to her Constitution score. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check every 8 hours (DC 10, +1 for each previous check). After the first failed check, the character becomes drowsy. Each failed check thereafter, the character becomes stuporous.
If a character stays awake for a number of hours equal to ten times her Constitution score, that character must also take 1d6 nonlethal damage for each failed check.

(You'll note that one hour of sleep prevents all of this, just like one morsel of food every three days prevents starvation. No specific rules for microsleeping; the net effects are accounted for in the penalties.)

Drowsy: A drowsy character takes a -2 penalty to Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma. Doing anything that would normally cause drowsiness will instead cause the drowsy character to become stuporous. After 8 hours of complete rest, a character is no longer drowsy.

Stuporous: A drowsy character takes a -6 penalty to Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma. Doing anything greater than a single move action during a round requires a Will save (DC 10, +1 for each 8 hours awake). If the character fails this will save by 10 or more, the character is dazed for that round. If the character fails this will save by 20 or more, the Character becomes Confused for 1d6 rounds. Doing anything that would normally cause stupor will instead cause a stuporous character to make a Will save (DC 15, or DC equal to the DC of the stupor effect) or become Fascinated for 1d6 hours. After 8 hours of complete rest, a character is reduced from stuporous to drowsy.

Bonus spell:

Ray of Sleepiness
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Descriptor]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will, partial; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
An indigo ray projects from your pointing finger. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to strike a target.
The subject is immediately stuporous for the spell’s duration. A successful Will save means the creature is only drowsy.
A character that is already drowsy instead becomes stuporous.
Unlike normal drowsiness or stupor, the effect ends as soon as the spell’s duration expires.
Because this spell emulates deprivation of trancing as well as sleep, an Elf's immunity to magical sleep effects does not apply.
Material Component: The eyelash of a fey.

A very simple version, based directly on Starvation, Thirst, or Forced March:
A character can go without sleep for 1 day plus a number of hours equal to his Constitution score. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check every 24 hours (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 nonlethal damage.
A character who takes nonlethal damage from lack of sleep becomes fatigued. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. A character reduced to unconsciousness by lack of sleep is automatically asleep.

(1d6 nonlethal damage from a lack of sleep is rather peculiar. Then again, a lot of players don't interpret damage to be literal injury but rather as a form of stamina...)

[lightningcat]

Drowsy: A drowsy character takes a -2 penalty to Intelligence and Wisdom. Doing anything that would normally cause drowsiness will instead cause the drowsy character to become stuporous. After 8 hours of complete rest, a character is no longer drowsy.

Stuporous: A drowsy character takes a -6 penalty to Intelligence and Wisdom. Doing anything greater than a single move action during a round requires a Will save (DC 10, +1 for each 8 hours awake). If the character fails this will save by 10 or more, the character is dazed for that round. If the character fails this will save by 20 or more, the Character becomes Confused for 1d6 rounds. Doing anything that would normally cause stupor will instead cause a stuporous character to make a Will save (DC 15, or DC equal to the DC of the stupor effect) or become Fascinated for 1d6 hours. After 8 hours of complete rest, a character is reduced from stuporous to drowsy.

It may sound a bit strange, but I would go with penalties to Wisdom and Charisma. My logic here is that some of my best (if strangest) ideas have came to me when sleep deprived, but my ability to deal well with people goes way down. Just my personal experience speaking of marathon gaming sessions and way to much cramming.
Otherwise, I like these rules and will be adding them to my campaign.

[Lubirio]

Though Drowsy and Stuporous seem like good names; the 16 hours + the character's Con score means a really old elf can't function with his usual 4 hour trance... :smalltongue:

Anyway, the part about the 'two successive failed save' seems like a bit of a stretch to me, I think one failed save should do the trick just as well. And why would you want to redesign the rule I was under the impression we were done with?

[Demented]

@lightningcat:
I've always had a theory that being tired shuts off or lowers certain parts of the brain that actually inhibit other parts (usually for worse but sometimes for better). Of course, there's no good way to model that in DnD... I'll just make it affect all of the mental abilities.

@Lubirio:
That's why old people have nap time. :smalltongue: (/joke)
I'll set it so Elves should just be able to stay awake for 20 hours instead of 16.
Still, I'm rather fond of the nap idea... A wicked alternative is setting humans to 12 and elves to 16, so that low-Constitution characters will need an evening nap. :smallwink:

I'll change the two successive saves as well... I think that's left over from when I had the interval at 4 hours instead of 8 hours.