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Zom B
2009-12-03, 01:03 PM
So a player who always makes the most cheesy and broken combinations possible is going to be DMing a game. I have a real character ready, but I wanted to show up with something to rival some of his creations.

So the Thoon Thrall (MM V, page 112) gains an infinite amount of temporary hit points but with the nasty side effect of blowing up on a failed Fort save, and that you are automatically Dominated by nearby Thoon Infiltrators. Now, unless I'm mistaken, you can then add an undead template like Vampire (since it can be applied to a monstrous humanoid), and as an undead you are immune to effects that require a Fort save AND immune to mind-controlling effects, so you won't explode or be subject to domination. Again, unless I'm mistaken, this creates a creature that can gain an infinite number of temporary hit points, at a rate of 5 more every round.

I'm thinking of going with the Necropolitan template from Libris Mortis, since that makes the least impact on the character overall while making it Undead. I'm thinking he'll have been undead for four years, so he should have 105,120,000 temporary hit points and gaining at a rate of 72,000 per day.

Fax Celestis
2009-12-03, 01:07 PM
Now, unless I'm mistaken, you can then add an undead template like Vampire (since it can be applied to a monstrous humanoid), and as an undead you are immune to effects that require a Fort save AND immune to mind-controlling effects, so you won't explode or be subject to domination.

Creatures that become undead lose benefits from their bodies that require a Con score. Something like your Temp HP boost sounds like it falls under that--and in any case undead are only immune to Fort save effects that do not also effect objects. Since the creature is undead--and therefore technically an object, as corpses are objects--the Fort save effect would still apply.

Try something else.

dsmiles
2009-12-03, 01:08 PM
Literally...ROFL.

Zom B
2009-12-03, 01:11 PM
Creatures that become undead lose benefits from their bodies that require a Con score. Something like your Temp HP boost sounds like it falls under that

Temporary hit points have nothing to do with a Con score.


and in any case undead are only immune to Fort save effects that do not also effect objects. Since the creature is undead--and therefore technically an object, as corpses are objects--the Fort save effect would still apply.

By that reasoning, there is no reason for the rule about undead being immune to fort save effects. They're not 'objects', they're 'creatures.'

Snails
2009-12-03, 01:21 PM
Not having a Con score means that Undead are immune to Finger of Death but not Disintegrate, as Disintegrate affects objects.

I have no idea whether the downside of your special cheese is more like Finger of Death or Disintegrate.

Doc Roc
2009-12-03, 01:23 PM
It has a fort save. That's literally all the rules give a durn about. I believe you are immune, but I'd need to sit down and chew on the class, which I'ven't time to do. Do remember that normally, temp hp doesn't stack, or stacks weirdly.

zagan
2009-12-03, 01:36 PM
It would be harder but finding a way to not fail a save on a natural one and have a +10 fort save would perhaps be better.
The only way that I can think of is being a 17th level Knight or the diamond mind maneuvre Mind over body. But they're probably other way.
Fun idea in any case.

Douglas
2009-12-03, 01:47 PM
It would be harder but finding a way to not fail a save on a natural one and have a +10 fort save would perhaps be better.
Oh, if that's all you need...

Get the fort save bonus however you like and take the feat Steadfast Determination from PHBII. The natural 1 clause from the feat is specific to fort saves, but that's all you need for this.

If the fort save scales with additional temp hp, then you do need complete immunity, but if the writers were stupid enough to make it a fixed constant DC then this will work.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-03, 01:55 PM
There's still the problem of being vulnerable to Thoon Infiltrators, so wouldn't the Necropolitan/other Undead template be a better solution anyways?

Unless you can just get a constant Protection from [Alignment] effect on you. Problem solved then.

lesser_minion
2009-12-03, 02:00 PM
Doc Roc is wrong here.

If something requires a fortitude save, that's usually because it target's something's metabolism or depends on the target being in some way alive.

Undead and constructs aren't alive, so they don't take fortitude saves (and also lack a Con score).

There are effects that specifically require undead to take fortitude saves, and get around the immunity that way. Additionally, any effect that requires a fortitude save and is able to affect both objects and creatures is able to affect unliving creatures, despite their immunity. That's specifically called out in the rules for undead and construct immunity to effects that require a fortitude save.

It's essentially a very roundabout and counter-intuitive way of shaving one word off of a few spell descriptions. Nice move, WotC.

Re-reading your post and realising that you have to make a fort save to get the temporary hitpoints, you might be OK. However, it is still a specific effect, and the DM would be very well within his rights to rule that it bypasses your immunity.

nyarlathotep
2009-12-03, 02:03 PM
Taking the steadfast determination feat makes you not fail fort saves on a natural 1, so with enough save boosting you should be fine, without an LA +6 template.

edit: ninja'd

Zom B
2009-12-03, 02:08 PM
There are effects that specifically require undead to take fortitude saves, and get around the immunity that way. Additionally, any effect that requires a fortitude save and is able to affect both objects and creatures is able to affect unliving creatures, despite their immunity. That's specifically called out in the rules for undead and construct immunity to effects that require a fortitude save.

I guess I should be glad the Explode ability of the Thoon Thrall says nothing about objects.

lesser_minion
2009-12-03, 02:12 PM
If it still works on you despite you being undead, then you have to take the save. If it doesn't work on you, you can't benefit from it.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-03, 02:14 PM
Just checked the template for myself; here's the relevant info:


Thrall to Thoon Infiltrator: A Thoon thrall responds to the commands of the nearest Thoon infiltrator as if dominated, with no save allowed.


Overdrive Healing (Su): This ability works like fast healing 5, but the thrall can gain hit points beyond its full normal hit points as temporary hit points. The Thoon thrallís skin begins to blister and swell when this happens, and the thrall grows visibly larger. Once its temporary hit points equal or exceed its full normal hit points, the Thoon thrall must make a save every round or explode (see below).


Immolate (Su): When a Thoon thrall is fully healed and has temporary hit points equal to or greater than its full normal hit points, it might explode, its body unable to contain the energy within. At the end of its turn, if a Thoon thrallís temporary hit points equal or exceed its full normal hit points, it must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the Thoon thrallís HD + its Con modifier).

So (A) they act as if dominated, which doesn't necessarily mean immunity to [mind-affecting] effects would help, (B) the temporary hit points are based on fast healing, which undead can possess, as opposed to regeneration or Positive Energy Plane shenanigans, which they can't, and (C) the Fort save DC is fixed. Based on A and C, I'd say becoming undead isn't really worth it, as a positive Con modifier helps with the save.

Zom B
2009-12-03, 02:15 PM
If it still works on you despite you being undead, then you have to take the save.

I'm not to familiar with the creature, but no part of a template like this should work on an undead (even if undead are specified as being potential targets) - you're immune to the whole effect, both the good and the bad.

They are two different effects; one gives you the temporary hit points and the other kicks in should your temporary hit points exceed your max hit points and tries to blow you up if you fail a fortitude save.

The Thoon Thrall is a template, not a creature.

lesser_minion
2009-12-03, 02:17 PM
So (A) they act as if dominated, which doesn't necessarily mean immunity to [mind-affecting] effects would help, (B) the temporary hit points are based on fast healing, which undead can possess, as opposed to regeneration or Positive Energy Plane shenanigans, which they can't, and (C) the Fort save DC is fixed. Based on A and C, I'd say becoming undead isn't really worth it, as a positive Con modifier helps with the save.

No, a positive Con modifier doesn't help. The Con modifier is added to the DC of the fortitude save.

Who does the template apply to?

VirOath
2009-12-03, 02:19 PM
Auto-Dominated?

From the MIC, Third Eye of Mind Blank, or something to that effect. Be under the effect of Mind Blank for as long as you wear it.

That, plus the "No Nat 1" on fort save clause should cover your two issues.

Count Dravda
2009-12-03, 02:19 PM
This seems to work, RAW, but requires some houseruling. The house rule? "LA: --. The nature of Overdrive Healing, combined with their utter vulnerability to domination by Thoon Infiltrators, makes Thoon Thralls unsuitable as player characters."

In a normal campaign, I would say that an undead Thoon Thrall that fails its fort save still explodes. Being undead doesn't really make you immune to that. However...this is a cheese campaign. RAW, anything goes!

-Count Dravda

Boci
2009-12-03, 02:20 PM
They are two different effects; one gives you the temporary hit points and the other kicks in should your temporary hit points exceed your max hit points and tries to blow you up if you fail a fortitude save.

Is the fortitude save static? Becuase if yes then you just need to pump it up and make sure you do not fail it on a nat 1.

Zom B
2009-12-03, 02:20 PM
Who does the template apply to?

Any humanoid, and possibly some other types such as monstrous humanoid, but I doubt it.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-03, 02:21 PM
Based on A and C, I'd say becoming undead isn't really worth it, as a positive Con modifier helps with the save.[/QUOTE]

But....becoming undead would mean that flat-out ignore the Fort saves.

I really don't see any downside in coupling this with Necropolitan. You lose your CON score, but you're got literally infinite temporary HP, and are immune to the drawback. You can even soak a full-power Disintegrate to the face without so much as a scratch.

You're vulnerable to Infiltrators, but so is a non-Undead Thrall, and you have the bonus of being immune to anyone else's mind-affecting attacks.

lesser_minion
2009-12-03, 02:22 PM
If it isn't called out as available to undead, it isn't, and I (and presumably the designers) would expect the DM to require that it be removed if your character later becomes undead.

If Thoon Thrall is called out as an inherited template, you could take an acquired template that makes you undead and have nothing in RAW blocking the conflict. I'm guessing that these are both acquired templates though, so it wouldn't fly because the templates are applied in whichever order the DM deems most appropriate (basically, whichever order stops you sneaking out of the conflict between the templates).

Also, "as if dominated" would work on undead, in general. This is very clearly an utter vulnerability - and a key part of the template. There is no way out of it.

Zom B
2009-12-03, 02:22 PM
This seems to work, RAW, but requires some houseruling. The house rule? "LA: --. The nature of Overdrive Healing, combined with their utter vulnerability to domination by Thoon Infiltrators, makes Thoon Thralls unsuitable as player characters."

Yeah, I love how it just says it is unsuitable, not prohibited.

Boci
2009-12-03, 02:23 PM
Yeah, I love how it just says it is unsuitable, not prohibited.

Yeah the LA: -- prohibits it.

AgentPaper
2009-12-03, 02:49 PM
Try to Pun-Pun on him. Make a completely innocent looking kobold wizard, with a snake companion and but one magic item: A Candle of Invocation. :smallbiggrin:

lesser_minion
2009-12-03, 02:58 PM
You could, in theory, go something like Kobold Sor 1/Egoist 13 with Assume Supernatural Ability, Practiced Manifester and a snake familiar. Just to show that you know what you can do with that stuff (this is about the least optimised Pun-Pun on the planet).

However, with Pun-Pun, please bear in mind that the first rule of D&D is that you do not play with Pun-Pun. The second rule of D&D is that you DO NOT play with Pun-Pun.

If you want to go down that route, just make sure that your DM knows that you know what you can do with that stuff. Don't actually do it (unlike Fight Club, you really do not want to break the rules here).

AgentPaper
2009-12-03, 03:16 PM
Well, I thought the point was to mess with him. Actually, you could just make your normal character, and then freak him out by having the first words your character says be, "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu." :smalltongue:

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-03, 03:55 PM
No, a positive Con modifier doesn't help. The Con modifier is added to the DC of the fortitude save.


But....becoming undead would mean that flat-out ignore the Fort saves.

Two very good points. I have no idea what I was thinking when I recommended not becoming undead. :smallconfused:

dsmiles
2009-12-03, 04:13 PM
I'm still laughing. :smallbiggrin:

Heliomance
2009-12-03, 04:22 PM
Am I missing something, or would the Savage Species spell Trait Removal be immensely useful here?

Telonius
2009-12-03, 04:30 PM
Hilarious - but would this Thoon guy still be subject to Turning? A sufficiently high-level Radiant Servant could totally ruin his day, infinite HP or no.

lesser_minion
2009-12-03, 05:07 PM
Why so humorous?

Telonius
2009-12-03, 05:23 PM
I... don't see the joke here.

We established that the Thoon cheese doesn't work, because the template is banned from PCs.

However, yes, Turn Undead would also be a vulnerability.

:smallfrown: I hear they're making remarkable progress in funnybone transplant research. Don't give up.

Personally I'd flavor the destruction as more impressive depending on how many temporary hitpoints it had at the time. :smallcool:

lesser_minion
2009-12-03, 05:24 PM
What does one of the bones in my arm have to do with the price of eggs?

And, to revise the previous question, Why so humerus? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IncrediblyLamePun)

Glimbur
2009-12-03, 06:10 PM
I have a silly idea to get around the Dominate-like effect.

Don't be undead. Instead, cast Dominate Person on yourself and find a way to make it last all day. I thought there was a rule about opposed Cha checks if you are affected by two dominates at once, but I cannot find it. So I'm actually not sure exactly what the effect would be, but it would be funny to make your DM decide.

It's probably slightly less ticklish but requires more trust to get a party member to Dominate you every day.

starwoof
2009-12-03, 06:12 PM
It's probably slightly less ticklish but requires more trust to get a party member to Dominate you every day.

Kinky.:smallwink:

I can see that going sour so fast on so many different levels.

Starbuck_II
2009-12-03, 06:23 PM
I have a silly idea to get around the Dominate-like effect.

Don't be undead. Instead, cast Dominate Person on yourself and find a way to make it last all day. I thought there was a rule about opposed Cha checks if you are affected by two dominates at once, but I cannot find it. So I'm actually not sure exactly what the effect would be, but it would be funny to make your DM decide.

It's probably slightly less ticklish but requires more trust to get a party member to Dominate you every day.

Did you check SRD?
Multiple Mental Control Effects


Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that donít remove the recipientís ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

Another_Poet
2009-12-03, 08:02 PM
Dammit Glimbur, you ninja'd my awesome idea!

Ah well. I'll add that depending on starting wealth, you don't need to trust a fellow party member. Get an intelligent magic item that is Lawful and sworn to obey you. And make sure it has the power to do the dominate thing, and instructions to counter-dominate you against any Thoon Infiltrators.

ap

Zaq
2009-12-04, 08:36 AM
This is high-grade cheese, but then, you asked for high-grade cheese already.

The spell Expunge the Supernatural, from the Truename section of Tome of Magic, can permanently rob a creature of one (Su) ability. It's a high-level (8th, I think... the book's not open) spell and requires that the caster know the target's personal truename, which requires multiple weeks of expensive research, but it will work.

The ability that makes Thoon Thralls explode is (Su).

I don't have the math as to what level you'd have to be to afford a scroll or a casting of this by WBL, but it can and will get rid of that pesky explosion for you. The only problem is that if memory serves it's Permanent, not Instantaneous, so Disjunction or similar high-level dispelling will ruin your day more so than it already does... but that's the risk you take.

Yeah, it's normally a totally useless spell in a useless section of a useless section of the book (yo dawg, I heard you like useless sections...), but hey, you asked for the stinkiest cheese around. Now you just take Shape Soulmeld: Planar Ward or some other way of getting immunity to domination, and the downsides of being a Thoon Thrall are gone.

I don't know why they even printed Expunge the Supernatural... but then, I don't know why they printed the Truenamer section to begin with. And I play one.

lesser_minion
2009-12-04, 08:58 AM
Immunity to dominate, mind-affecting, etc. don't work against the thrall's vulnerability - it isn't called out as being a compulsion or a mind-affecting effect. It's just a trait of the character.

Zom B
2009-12-04, 09:25 AM
Immunity to dominate, mind-affecting, etc. don't work against the thrall's vulnerability - it isn't called out as being a compulsion or a mind-affecting effect. It's just a trait of the character.

It makes one wonder, then, why they italicized the Dominate portion, like the effect is identical to the spell.

SaintRidley
2009-12-04, 09:33 AM
It makes one wonder, then, why they italicized the Dominate portion, like the effect is identical to the spell.

So you would have a mechanical reference to just what it meant.

lesser_minion
2009-12-04, 09:53 AM
It makes one wonder, then, why they italicized the Dominate portion, like the effect is identical to the spell.

Affected 'as if' dominated doesn't imply any need to be susceptible to the dominate spells. It just gives you an idea as to the level of control the infiltrator has.

While that is fairly close to splitting hairs, it's worth pointing out that this is supported by RAI (which also says "no undead") and by the fact that it's not up to you, it's up to the DM, because this template is specifically called out as not permitted for player characters.

By RAI, were you to negate any drawback of the template, you would lose it, although that is neither here nor there.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-12-04, 01:28 PM
Am I missing something, or would the Savage Species spell Trait Removal be immensely useful here?Arg you beat me to it.

KellKheraptis
2009-12-04, 01:59 PM
Bear in mind also that Amaranth might be slightly easier to slip in under the radar, as Illumian Wizards aren't terribly uncommon (especially with theurge builds). He'll only know something is up when you start packing on nightsticks and snag Ice Assassin, and by then, it's too late :P