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Bagelz
2009-12-03, 03:57 PM
So another forums was talking about which weapons are best
So i put together an excel sheet with weapon properties

EDIT: some errors were pointed out in my math, and it is often situational

So for heroic teir (i was assuming 60% hit chance, 1[w]+5 dmg)

again for 1W+main stat attacks. Ignoring feats

+3(+0 main stat) and high crit (multiply high crit per teir, and double THAT at epic if you crit on 19)
for 1d6 adds average 0.175dmg per swing (not hit)
for 1d8 adds avg 0.225 per swing
for 1d10 adds avg 0.275 per swing
for 1d12 adds avg 0.325 per swing

+3(+5 main stat)
d6 0.425
d8 0.475
d10 0.525
d12 0.575

brutal 1 (does not depend on dmg die) (brutal2 is x2)
0.025 per 5% chance to hit
ie hit range roll at least than
3.........0.125dmg (thats hitting an ac of 20 with a + 17 to hit)
11.......0.225dmg (hitting an ac of 20 with a +9 to hit)
12.......0.25dmg
13.......0.3dmg
19.......0.425dmg

increase die one size 0.05 for every 5% (double brutal 1)
ie + 0.95dmg if you can only miss on a 1
+0.05 if you can only hit on a nat 20
+0.5 if you need to roll an 11 or better (hit ac 20 with +9 to hit)

ok so onehanders 1d12 waraxe just beats out craighammer (1d10 brutal2) by 0.1 dmg reguardless of hit chance, and they only beat out bastard sword by up to if you have better than 40% chance to hit. or less than +5 ability mod
twohanders
hitchance....execution axe - fullblade at heroic
30%............ -0.075
50%............0.125
70%............0.325
90%............0.525

Theodoric
2009-12-03, 04:09 PM
well, you can't totally argue this mathematically. Well, you can, but it's not that valuable, or even useful since different classes uses weapons differently. A Rogue uses weapons in a completely different manner compared to a Fighter, or a Swordmage.

Shardan
2009-12-03, 05:34 PM
There is also race and feats and flavor to consider.
A dwarf would toss the full blade to the side pretty easily.
do you want Hammer Rhythm?
Do you want to be an axe wielding maniac or a great sword swinging conan type?

Bagelz
2009-12-04, 09:10 AM
There is also race and feats and flavor to consider.
...
do you want Hammer Rhythm?
Do you want to be an axe wielding maniac or a great sword swinging conan type?

I did note that paragon tier is pretty much feat based, but if you've already picked, say, swordnboard do you go scimitar for high crit, or longsword for +3.
if you are a dualweilding axe whirling barbarian do you go battleaxe (1d10) or kopesh (1d8 brutal1).

is that superior weapon proficiency worth the feat. Just giving some more detailed information.

Hzurr
2009-12-04, 09:40 AM
I did note that paragon tier is pretty much feat based, but if you've already picked, say, swordnboard do you go scimitar for high crit, or longsword for +3.
if you are a dualweilding axe whirling barbarian do you go battleaxe (1d10) or kopesh (1d8 brutal1).

is that superior weapon proficiency worth the feat. Just giving some more detailed information.

And in the end, the answer to these questions is in your preferred build and playstyle. To some, the extra +1 they get by choosing a longsword isn't worth sacrificing the potential for more damage (even if mathematically it's superior).

Actually, I'm going to come right out and say that if you let math determine your entire build, then you're doing it wrong. There's nothing wrong with a little optimization, but if bigger numbers is your only goal when making a character, then you make baby Jesus cry. :smallfrown:

Gametime
2009-12-04, 01:41 PM
Actually, I'm going to come right out and say that if you let math determine your entire build, then you're doing it wrong. There's nothing wrong with a little optimization, but if bigger numbers is your only goal when making a character, then you make baby Jesus cry. :smallfrown:

Not if your character is a warrior who pursues perfection in battle and thus wants to make sure he's using the best weapon he can get. Admittedly, that's a narrow character concept, and I agree mostly with your point, but I also can see the benefits of calculating things out at least some of the time.

tcrudisi
2009-12-04, 01:51 PM
Actually, I'm going to come right out and say that if you let math determine your entire build, then you're doing it wrong. There's nothing wrong with a little optimization, but if bigger numbers is your only goal when making a character, then you make baby Jesus cry. :smallfrown:

Who says the math is for your build? Personally, I like knowing the math for other reasons as well. If, for instance, I sit down at a LFR table and know the module is really friggin' tough, I want to be able to sit down at a table where I know the players made well-built characters. Alternatively, if I sit down at a home game and a new person joins, I want to be able to look at his sheet and figure out, "Is he/she a smart power-gamer, a bad power-gamer, or a roleplayer?"

Yakk
2009-12-04, 02:32 PM
Ya, much of your math has errors in it.

(suprisingly ability mods didn't make much of a difference ie dmg die is the same boost if you have +1 str or +5 str).
In cases where you vary accuracy, it has a large difference.

A 1d10+5 swing with a 50% chance to hit (5% of attacks are crits for an average of +8 damage over a hit) is 5.65 damage per swing.

Adding +1 to hit boosts this to 6.175.
Going to d12 to damage boosts this to 6.25.
Brutal 2 boosts this to 6.15.
Adding high crit boosts this to 5.925.

Dropping Str from +4 to +1, hit chance falls to .35, and damage to 1d10+2.

3.025 base average damage per swing.
+1 to hit grants 3.4.
d12 damage die grants 3.475.
Brutal 2 boosts this to 3.375.
High crit gives 3.3.

So for heroic teir

you get the most dps out of a bigger damage die (1d8->1d10 is about 1dmg per hit)
then brutal2 (or b1 on 2 dmg die) (0.95 per hit)
brutal 1 (0.475)
+3 proficiency instead of +2 - +5% chance to hit, comes out about 0.25-0.275 dmg per hit
high crit, also comes out about 0.25-0.275 depending on dmg die.
What is your base chance to hit?

Your +3 proficiency calculation is far off. And why would you measure +3 proficiency in terms of average damage per hit? +3 makes you hit more often, not for more damage...

now dmg die and brutal both scale with chance to hit (if you need 11+ to hit ac thats a 55% chance to hit)
No, 11+ is 50% chance to hit.

while +3 and high crit do not.
+3 scales with your base damage.

this makes +3 and high crit better on hard to hit creatures, worse on easy to hit creatures

paragon is feat dependant, and epic - high crit trumps all (with a crit on 19-20 feat, and +3 dmg die...)
With d12 damage die and 19-20 threat range, high crit adds 1.95 damage per swing.
With a 50% base chance to hit, average attack being 3d12+25 (mixture of encounter and at-will attacks, and some daily), +3 to hit grants 2.225 per swing.
With d12 damage die and 3[W] average on a swing, Brutal 2 grants 1.5 per swing.
Dropping to d10 damage die costs 2.1 per swing.

In short, at epic, +3 > Damage Die > High Crit > Brutal.

Brutal + High Crit synergise, adding an extra 0.3 damage. Despite this, the average of HC and Brutal remains weaker than Damage Die or +3.

at heroic i prefer +3 because dazed/knocked prone/ ongoing damge/ temp hit points are better than damage
This remains true at all levels.

Of course, for fighters, the riders on powers dominate what weapon you want.

A fighter using Brash Strike with 18 str/16 con and a +1 WarAxe is hitting 60%/5% for 14.5/23.5, or 9.15 per round.

The same Fighter with a Bastard Sword (18 str/16 dex) deals 11.5/19.5 at 65%/5% for 7.875 per round.

The choice of power dominates over other concerns.

For non-fighters, your choice of weapon isn't as heavily tied to your stats at heroic tier. Even there, it is conventional to pick weapons that line up...

Bagelz
2009-12-04, 04:34 PM
first off i Agree that my friend who is an elf ranger will only use bows, because that's his character, most rogues will use daggers.
I myself play a warden. The weapon doesn't matter as long as it is one handed. So I will pick the best weapon for me (I will be getting proficiency in bastard sword next feat, even though war axe is slightly better dmg)

Yakk is correct and thanks to him I found some errors in my excel sheet
I was saying that +ability damage doesn't affect the outcome. It does affect +3 prof. I will fix this, but the numbers i previously gave are for a +0 mod
I was saying that brutal 1 adds the same amount if you have a +2 str or a +5 str (+1dmg per hit avg for brutal) which is still true.

and i did find an error in my excel sheet, but i hadn't posted totals just differences which remain the same because the abilities don't change which weapons are better.

What is your base chance to hit?
Your +3 proficiency calculation is far off. And why would you measure +3 proficiency in terms of average damage per hit? +3 makes you hit more often, not for more damage...

I was assuming a 60% chance to hit as a baseline sorry for not specifing
as this about the level of base attack to ac on an appropriate level soldier type monster
so yes, crit and +3 scale with your base damage, and weapon size and brutal scale with your chance to hit. On AVERAGE not extremes like you only hit on natural 20s this is a fair estimate.

With d12 damage die and 19-20 threat range, high crit adds 1.95 damage per swing.
With a 50% base chance to hit, average attack being 3d12+25

I completly forgot that most at wills scale with teir (ie extra [w] damage).
I will edit my other posts to fix this when I have some more time. I have fixed my original post and mentioned that is only for heroic