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View Full Version : Is it a bird? is it a plane? No, it's a monk class...[MV, 3.5, PEACH]



Mulletmanalive
2009-12-05, 10:19 AM
I started this fella way back when, to go along with this thread here: A Question of Tome but only finished it last night. I went of some of the stranger and more impressive martial arts i've seen up close and in documentaries when designing the powers, hence they're not really mystical. Without further ado;

What the Hell is Mecha Victoriana?!
As this is a common question, here's a summary:

Mecha Victoriana is a Victorian setting based on the D&D 3.5 ruleset that grew out of the Dragonmech game by Goodmangames. It has a number of rule variations, a low magic level [it's powerful where it is, for certain things and rare because most people don't believe in it].

The game uses a number of Rule variations, summarised here:
Characters add their Con score to their HP at first level. Their hp are divided into thresholds of "Green [100-51%], Yellow [50-26%], Orange [25-10%], Red [10-0%] and Lethal .
Hits dealing damage over the target's Con score deal Massive Damage; Fort save against the damage or slip to the top of the next threshold down.
Armour is Hardness, Defence is driven by class levels
Trips, Bullrushes etc come off Grapple
Turns are discreet time units and you can't make AoOs before you've acted, though you can still use an Immediate action.
Magic is skill based and Concentration checks are against 10 + Attack bonus for casting defensively
The setting's big hitters aren't mages or clerics, but Engineers, Pilots and their mechs.

Bakstory wise; American Civil war ongoing due to refugees bolstering the southern armies, Aliens invading through North Africa, China regains position on international stage due to high number of priests when magic started working, Germany conquered much of the world with a utopian Heinlann style government and the British are scrabbling to keep their Empire together while aliens try and beat their way out of Africa into the populated regions [which would be a bad thing].

Monk:
Stereotypes aside, one of the strongest military assets that the Chinese, Japanese and Koreans have in Mecha Victoriana are their martial artists. These individuals are trained from the age of five and up to master specific martial arts in order to better defend their monastery and the government that funds it. Prior to the expulsion of foreign interests from China, these people were persecuted by the government at foreign blackmailing while the Japanese oligarchy went to extraordinary lengths to remove all traces of Buddhist religion, including the sohei warrior monks.

In modern times, many monks have been drafted into the military and the mech brigades, while others still have transplanted themselves to places such as Britain, Germany or America in search of a new life. In these circumstances, many have found that their extraordinary personal speed has allowed them to remain alive despite the number of guns in the underworlds of these places.

Presently, the Royal Society and the Establishment are both conducting intensive training programs to try and create cadres of monks with the express purpose of protecting and disabling spell casters; indeed their specific martial techniques are highly useful around spell casters and some of their higher end abilities verge on magic themselves.

Note: Monks are not a 'Martial Adept' class in and of themselves but benefit greatly from the use of such abilities as it is a melee character first and foremost.
Abilities are named in Japanese simply because it's easier to say than Chinese and I'm better versed in it.

Origin: Most monks are either Farms or Townies as these are the two regions that tend to feed monastic orders with new recruits. Some are more heavily devout and are drawn form the Choir origin. Interestingly Dons of various races are becoming fairly common in this class as well.

Religion: The overwhelming majority of monks are Buddhists, though a number of Daoist disciples exist who conform to very similar martial patterns. Those born and trained in England or America tend to come from whatever religion their family held, often Catholic or Protestant. Despite this, few monks have the specific piety to hold a Religious feat.

Other classes: Monks are usually trained in order to defend allied spell casters [Priests in China, Arcanists under Society training] and to interfere with enemy ones. Their melee focus means that they are often forced to rely on Troopers for support, while Mech Jockeys find that they make excellent counter boarding troops. Spies tend to like Monks for their stealth and a reasonable number take the time to learn these techniques themselves.

{table=head]Level| BAB| Fort| Ref| Will| Def| Special

1|
+1 |
+2 |
+2 |
+2 |
+1 |Agile, Taijutsu, Gensoton (1)

2|
+2 |
+3 |
+3 |
+3 |
+2 |Hijutsu +1d6, Mokuton

3|
+3 |
+3 |
+3 |
+3 |
+3 |Katon, Uncanny Dodge

4|
+4 |
+4 |
+4 |
+4 |
+4 |Douton

5|
+5 |
+4 |
+4 |
+4 |
+5 |Suiton

6|
+6 |
+5 |
+5 |
+5 |
+5 |Hijutsu +2d6, Kinton

7|
+7 |
+5 |
+5 |
+5 |
+6 |Gensoton (2)

8|
+8 |
+6 |
+6 |
+6 |
+7 |Bonus Feat

9|
+9 |
+6 |
+6 |
+6 |
+8 |Mettle

10|
+10 |
+7 |
+7 |
+7 |
+9 |Bonus Feat

11|
+11 |
+7 |
+7 |
+7 |
+10 |Hijutsu +3d6

12|
+12 |
+8 |
+8 |
+8 |
+10 |Deep Stance [1 round]

13|
+13 |
+8 |
+8 |
+8 |
+11 |Gensoton (3)

14|
+14 |
+9 |
+9 |
+9 |
+12|Bonus Feat

15|
+15 |
+9 |
+9 |
+9 |
+13 |Desperate Roll

16|
+16 |
+10 |
+10 |
+10 |
+14 |Hijutsu +4d6

17|
+17 |
+10 |
+10 |
+10 |
+15 |Deep Stance [2 rounds]

18|
+18 |
+11 |
+11 |
+11 |
+15 |Bonus Feat

19|
+19 |
+11 |
+11 |
+11 |
+16 |Gensoton (4)

20|
+20 |
+12 |
+12 |
+12 |
+17 |Banton[/table]

Hit Dice: d8
Class Skills: Balance [Dex], Bluff [Cha], Climb [Str], Concentration [Con], Diplomacy [Cha], Hide [Dex], Intimidate [Str/Cha], Jump [Str], Knowledge (Religion) , Listen [Wis], Move Silently [Dex], Spot [Wis], Swim [Str], Tumble [Dex].
Skill Points per Level: 6 + Int

Class Abilities:
Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: Monks are trained eclectically with many kinds of weapon. They are proficient with all Simple weapons along with Martial melee weapons. They may choose an additional number of Exotic or Martial weapons to gain proficiency with equal to their Int modifier + ½ their Monk level.

Alternately, they may choose to invest these additional proficiencies in gaining the Weapon Focus feat for any melee or thrown weapon they wish on a one for one basis.

Monks are lightly trained with armour and are proficient with Light Shields, Impermeables and Padded Jackets.

Agile [Ex]: As a Swift action, the Monk may add his Dexterity modifier to his defence. This is the same Swift action that triggers the use of Dodge feats and activates any such feats the Monk may have. This ability functions only when the monk wears no armour or those mentioned in the proficiencies section and is subject to the stat limit for armour.

Gensoton (Elemental Styles) [Ex]: Monks have the ability to adopt fighting methods based on the five elements or phases of matter in the Chinese thought system. The basic granted ability of these styles is that the Monk gains additional Attacks of Opportunity each round equal to their Gensoton score and may make these AoOs even before they have acted in the turn. Additional fighting styles grant two abilities each; a strike and a stance.

Strikes are attack options that can be applied to either Standard Attack actions or to Full attack actions, made using melee weapons with which the Monk possesses Weapon Focus, unless otherwise stated. Some grant bonuses to damage or the like. Some, such as Douton are Full actions in themselves.

Stances are static abilities that grant benefits. They are entered automatically as a result of using a given Strike or can be entered as an Immediate action. Stances last for only one round normally, but can be sustained from round to round by conscious effort if the Monk wishes. A higher level ability sustains these effects for longer. The Monk enters a stance in the process of making the strike so any static abilities apply to the strike's effects.

Gensoton function only when the monk wears no armour or those mentioned in the proficiencies section.

Taijutsu (Body Techniques) [Ex]: Though not as damaging as weapons, Monks train extensively in body arts and unarmed combat, not as a preferred technique but a backup and basis for what comes later. Monks unarmed attacks deal 1d6 damage with normal armour penetration and count as either Natural or Manufactured weapons whenever it is more beneficial to do so. Due to an awareness of the supernatural, for instance, monks are able to avoid damage from effects that are dangerous to those using unarmed strikes/natural weapons.

Hijutsu (Hidden/Secret Techniques) [Ex]: Hijutsu are effective mostly because they are unexpected. Monks only willingly use these abilities when they will make a difference as, if their techniques are dissected, defences can be found against them. Through a mix of twisting strikes, short jabs at seams in bone and nerve strikes, a 2nd level Monk deals +1d6 Mangle damage on a successful hit whenever they strike a Flatfooted or Flanked target with a melee attack.

This bonus increases further at 6th, 11th and 16th level.

Mokuton (Wood Style) [Ex]: The art of bending wood is a stance that monks use when they need to remain in place but keep a target pinned down. As a Swift action, the Monk may declare that he is located in any of his Threatened squares for purposes of whether he may flank targets. Whether these squares are occupied at the time is irrelevant.

[B]Strike: When using the wood strike, you may count as being located in any square that you threaten for purposes of Flanking. If you score a Critical hit on a target you flank, they are knocked prone as a result.
Stance: As a free action, the Monk may declare a number of targets within his Threat range "entwined." Whenever an Entwined target attacks the Monk, he may make an attack of opportunity against his attacker. This may only be used to trip the target, but if it succeeds, the target loses their attack and is displaced to another square within the Monk's threat range. Anyone occupying the target square is subject to a Trip attack at the same roll made to throw the first character.

Katon (Fire Style) [Ex]: The art of spreading fire is a style of offence that concentrates on the next point of disposition at all times.

Strike: The Flame stance is a Standard action only effect that knocks your target back if it connects. In addition to the normal strike, the target is pushed 5ft per point of your gensoton. If the target strikes something in flight, he takes 1d6 Falling damage per point of gensoton and falls prone; normally the character regains his footing as he lands.
Stance: Upon entering fire stance, the Monk may declare a number of targets equal to their gensoton as being "Aflame" as a free action. For purposes of threatening and striking these targets with attacks of opportunity, the Monk's Reach is considered to be 5ft longer per point of his gensoton. For example, a 7th level Monk has a gensoton of 2, hence can have 2 targets aflame at once and strikes at them as if he had a Reach of 15ft if they commit actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

Uncanny Dodge [Ex]: A monk has to have eyes in the back of his head in order to learn Katon and reactions to match. These come together to make a 3rd level Monk very difficult to shoot in the back. When Flatfooted, the Monk retains his active bonus to defence but is still considered Flatfooted for all other purposes [Precision Damage, etc].

Douton (Earth Style) [Ex]: The art of shattered earth is hard and brutal yet inexorable. Technically [almost ironically], Earth style is usually a 'soft' form, force being transmitted inside the target rather than against it. The most advanced form of earth style being Quivering Palm.

Strike: As a Full action, the Monk may make a single melee or thrown ranged attack. If this attack connects, it ignores DR/- and deals +1d6 additional damage per point of gensoton. This bonus damage applies before Hardness but is not multiplied on a Critical Hit.
Stance: The Earth Stance causes force to deflect like rolling stones. The Monk gains DR/Ballistic equal to twice their gensoton as long as they do not move other than to Shift in the round.

Suiton (Water Style) [Ex]: The art of flowing water is a style of movement that resembles crude tumbling but is practiced through what the ages have shown to be the most likely attack patterns.

Strike: When making a Water Strike, the Monk moves swiftly and penetrates the fabric of the target. He deals bonus damage on strike attacks equal to the number of squares moved prior to making the attack. In the case of a Full attack, this is limited to the distance Shifted but applies to all attacks made. Obviously, this is of limited benefit to a full attack unless you were already in Water stance.
Stance: While in the Water stance, the distance that a Monk can Shift is increased by 5ft per point of their gensoton. Thus, when first gained, the Monk can Shift 10ft while in Water stance, rising to 15th soon after. Squares shifted are counted like normal movement but do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Kinton (Metal Style) [Ex]: The art of wavering steel is a technique that plays on the malleability and glimmering nature of metal. As the sword of a martial artist dances and weaves, forming mystifying and lethal patterns, so does the monk's entire form.

Strike: When declaring attacks with the Kinton, the Monk may make an additional attack without penalty. This applies to both Standard and Full attacks. As with all Gensoton, it cannot be used as part of a charge.
Stance: While in metal stance, your Critical Threat range for melee and thrown weapons increases by your gensoton after all other modifiers to threat range are applied.

Bonus Feats: Once the core styles are learned, Monks go on to expand their martial training and make the style their own before returning to a common course with the final, ultimate technique. As a result, Monks gain a bonus feat from the following list at 8th, 10th, 14th and 18th level. They must meet any prerequisites of the feat that they select.

Clever Wrestling*, Close Quarters FightingCW, Dual FlurryMV, Earth's EmbraceCW, Eagle Claw AttackCW, Fists of Iron*, Flying KickCW, Freezing the LifebloodCW, Greater Dual FlurryMV, Improved Disarm, Improved Dual FlurryMV, Improved Trip, Leap to the Heavens PHB2, Pain TouchCW, Power AttackMV, Prone AttackCW, Roundabout KickCW, Snap KickToB, Stunning Strike*, Telling Blow PHB2, Versatile Unarmed StrikePHB2, Water Splitting StonePHB2, Weakening TouchCW, Wind and Fire StyleSoS

Mettle [Ex]: The training of a Monk puts them through impossible punishment, such that by 9th level, they have almost impossible control of their muscles and mind. When a Monk of this level is subject to an effect that allows a Fortitude or Will save and has a reduced effect should the save be passed is instead ignored if the save is passed. This applies only to those parts of an effect that actually allow a save.

This includes Massive Damage effects, making the Monk incredibly resilient to otherwise lethal attack…with a little luck, anyway.

Deep Stance [Ex]: The key to using stances to greatest effect is to be able to combine completely disparate elements fluidly into one whole. To Monks of lesser skill than 12th level, this is nigh impossible. Upon gaining this feature, the stances that a Monk adopts do not cease in the end phase but instead last until the end of the next turn. For example, were a Monk to adopt Fire stance, it would last for the rest of that turn, then throughout the subsequent one, allowing him to combine the effect with Wood stance to great effect.

At 17th level, this ability improves again, allowing the stance to remain for two additional rounds after the round of activation. Thus, by the third round, the Monk could be under the effect of 3 concurrent stances [albeit briefly]. Water, Metal and Earth make the strongest offense, while Wood, Fire and Earth make for the strongest defence.

Desperate Roll [Ex]: Come 15th level, a Monk will have avoided death on innumerable occasions and come out laughing. Whenever the Monk is struck by an effect that would reduce him to below 0 hp, he may attempt a Reflex save with a DC equal to the damage dealt to negate the damage. If he succeeds on this save, he moves 5x1d6ft in a direction chosen by the effect's originator and falls prone and Dazed for one round. Note that Evasion has no effect on the secondary effects.

This ability functions only when the monk wears no armour or those mentioned in the proficiencies section.

Banton (Universal/Absolute Style) [Ex]: You attain perfect balance between attack and defence, action and non-action, and all five of the elements in using the Absolute Style. The Banken is the perfect attack and the Bankō is the perfect defence.

Strike: The Banken is the ultimate attack; it creates situations wherein the enemy destroy their own will and ability to fight. Each target struck by the Banken suffers no damage, but must make a Will save, DC 30 + Wis, or have their first offensive action of their next turn directed at a target of the Monk's choice. The GM should make the save for PCs suffering this effect.
Stance: In the Bankō, a Monk is impossibly difficult to assail; blows, spells and hate all slipping by him because he refuses to oppose them. He gains a +20 bonus to his Psyche score, +10 to his saves and defence and a Spell Resistance of +20 [40 in D&D]. This stance is lost instantly if the Monk makes any action that deals damage to another character.

New MV Feats:
Clever Wrestling [Trooper, Monk]:
[I]You know how to use your opponent's strength against them, to the point where you can make a good show of wrestling giants.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with Unarmed Attacks
Description: When engaged in a grapple with a foe, you may choose to negate your opponent's Strength bonus on his Grapple check. You may only ignore a Strength bonus equal to or less than your BAB in this manner; this is not a penalty, either the entire bonus is negated or none of it is.

Fists of Iron [Monk]:
Your hands are charged with chi and hardened with a million blows into various unpleasant substances.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with Unarmed Attacks, Stunning Blow
Description: Up to once per round, when you are not using Stunning Fist, you may declare one unarmed attack to be an Iron Fist attack. Iron Fist attacks count as having Armour Piercing but cannot score Critical Hits.

Stunning Strike [Trooper, Monk]:
You have learned to stun your opponents with a deftly placed blow. The momentary look of disbelief is something you are well used to.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with Unarmed Attacks, Weapon Focus
Description: Up to once per round, you may declare a melee attack with a weapon that you possess Weapon Focus with to be a Stunning strike. If you score a critical hit with this attack, the damage is not multiplied; rather the target is stunned for one round. Should you roll a Threat on your confirmation roll, you may roll to confirm one more time. Should you succeed, the Stunning is extended to last a number of rounds equal to your Strength modifier.
Special: Effects that rely on the D&D Stunning Fist ability come to rely on this feat instead, at the GM's discretion. For example, Pain Touch simply replaces the normal stunning effect of the blow but is resolved normally.

Sun School [Tactical]:
You have learned a few esoteric fighting moves based on Kinton and it's interaction with sunlight.
Prerequisites: Kinton, Stunning Fist, BAB +6
Description: On learning Sun School, you gain access to the following manoeuvres:

Inexorable Progress of Dawn: When using Kinton, if you hit with your first two attacks [roll these separately if you wish to use this ability], your foe is pushed back 5ft. Neither of these blows may be a Stunning strike.
Blinding Light of Noon: Should you successfully stun your target two rounds in a row, your target also becomes Blinded for 1d4 rounds.
Flash of Sunset: Once per encounter, while in Katon, you may opt to move adjacent to your target when they provoke an AoO. This movement provokes AoOs as normal. If you choose to do this, you may make two strikes against the target as if you were using Kinken [metal strike]. You instantly adopt metal stance, losing your fire stance.

Obvious Questions:
1) Why is telling blow on the bonus feat list?
A) Telling Blow allows precision damage to be applied to Critical Hits. Though Hijutsu isn't technically Precision damage, if your GM agrees, there's nothing to stop you using the two together.

2) Why is this class so much more potent than Trooper?
A) It is and it isn't. This class suffers from being a melee class with absolutely no features that help it with ranged combat, save for metal stance when using thrown weapons. In D&D this might not have been a significant disadvantage but in a world where common troopers carry both grenades and 2d10 rifles, they have to pick their way across no-mans-land to get use out of their abilities.

3) I wish to enter a prestige class that requires Flurry of Blows. How does this interact with that?
A) Like as not the classes won't interact, but that's most likely because the class will have spell slots, not a great mix with MV play as it takes extra work. As Flurry of Blows no longer exists, increase the class's BAB to 1:1 and assume that you must have Kinton to be able to enter the class. If the class adds to your Unarmed Damage Monk feature, simply stack levels for purposes of calculating Gensoton.

4) I want to be able to jump like crazy! Why isn't this monk faster and jumpier than normal?!
A) Leap to the Heavens is on the list of bonus feats, allowing you a great deal of leaping if you want it. As for Fast Movement, that was sacrificed mostly as a balance thing. Dash and Run are still options, as is a level dip into Brute [Barbarian].

5) The Monk seems to be penalised for charging. Why?
A) None of the martial arts I've studied have used much of what could be described as charging, or even much running in combat. There are still perfectly solid options for a charging monk, like Flying Kick or Leap Attack, should you wish to spend feats on them, the core class wasn't designed with the expectation of quite that much recklessness, however.

6) Your version of Stunning Fist isn't as effective! Heck, it works better with swords!
A) No, it isn't, but you can use it as much as you like. I've never really liked limited resource abilities and heck, I've never really understood why it should be so difficult to get for non-monks anyway. The fact it works well with swords is effectively opting to hit your opponent in a not so soft spot rather than making a lethal blow with the weapon.

7) How come this monk is less mobile than otherwise?
A) As mentioned in 4), it is a little slower, but by 5th level, it's been given what amounts to a superior version of Sneak Attack: You move 30ft to attack your foe and make a water strike. You deal +6 damage with the attack and are now in water stance so you can spend your remaining Swift action to Shift at least 10ft away from your enemy. The advantage of actually having Spring Attack would be that you'd have a Swift action free to activate Agile.

8) About Agile…why are you doubling the Dex bonus to defence?
A) This class was designed for Mecha Victoriana, where Wisdom is the stat added to defence. If you'd prefer to use it in a different way, just call it Monk Defence and add your Wisdom to your defence, or something.


So, what do folks think? I tried to keep it as simple as possible while making it interesting to play. Part of my reason for posting this here is an idle [it's not relavent to me, but others might be interested] musing over what Tier people think this fellow is. Comment away!

Mulletmanalive
2009-12-07, 10:32 AM
To borrow from Lord_Iames_Osari:

Veni, vidi, offensi.

81 views and no comments? I guess that it is a bit of a wall of text...

Bayar
2009-12-07, 10:50 AM
1 level dip for the weapon proficiencies, saves, skills would be great for any martial class IMO.

You should add something like: you lose the ability to make certain manuevers if you are wearing armor that is heavier than X or something.

Seems to be just another monk class with a bunch of abilities dumped on it though. Although they do seem to fit the monk archetype better.

Must read the abilities more, some seem to be preety solid.

Mulletmanalive
2009-12-07, 10:56 AM
1 level dip for the weapon proficiencies, saves, skills would be great for any martial class IMO.

You should add something like: you lose the ability to make certain manuevers if you are wearing armor that is heavier than X or something.

Seems to be just another monk class with a bunch of abilities dumped on it though. Although they do seem to fit the monk archetype better.

Must read the abilities more, some seem to be preety solid.

Good point on the armour. That's going in. I did intend that early on...

My intention was more based on an exaggeration of the stuff i've seen in martial arts demonstrations than the fantasy/anime monk. Still wish i could remember the book series that left Monk in the 1e class lineup...

Baron Corm
2009-12-07, 11:00 AM
I think there's two main reasons it hasn't gotten replies. One is that it's another monk class, which gets blah blah Uncanny Dodge blah blah Sneak Attack. The other is that nobody knows what Mecha Victoriana is (including myself).

I think the most interesting thing about this class is Wood Style. I think it has too many class features, too many of which are borrowed from the rogue. Other than that, I suppose it looks balanced.

Mulletmanalive
2009-12-07, 11:10 AM
I think the most interesting thing about this class is Wood Style. I think it has too many class features, too many of which are borrowed from the rogue. Other than that, I suppose it looks balanced.

I can see the Desperate Roll and the Hijustsu being effectively like rogue features...Uncanny Dodge is a monkly standard.

Which are the others?

I suppose I could trim features, but i didn't think it had more than either the barbarian or original monk...

Ashtagon
2009-12-07, 11:23 AM
Language usage note: I'm fairly certain that any "style" suffix in Japanese would be either -dou or -jutsu. I don't yet have my Japanese dictionaries reinstalled (new PC) so I can't double-check, but I think ton is the reading used when that kanji is read alone and not as part of a kanji compound.

Mulletmanalive
2009-12-07, 11:30 AM
Language usage note: I'm fairly certain that any "style" suffix in Japanese would be either -dou or -jutsu. I don't yet have my Japanese dictionaries reinstalled (new PC) so I can't double-check, but I think ton is the reading used when that kanji is read alone and not as part of a kanji compound.

Ton means "escape/release" in this case, but i translated it as style for reasons i can't remember off hand. I'm looking it up.

Dou means path/way, while jutsu means technique/skill.

The best replacement would be ryuu or kei i suppose, though i'll see if i can find the original reason i settled on "fire release" as the usage...

Edit: Found it! Katon and so on are a word play! Ton in the On reading [when used in compound words] can mean both "gather" and "release" and as i was working on the idea that each style should have both Yin and Yang portions, it seemed perfect.

I knew i hadn't wasted all those hours with Japanese lessons...

Baron Corm
2009-12-07, 04:02 PM
I can see the Desperate Roll and the Hijustsu being effectively like rogue features...Uncanny Dodge is a monkly standard.

Which are the others?

I suppose I could trim features, but i didn't think it had more than either the barbarian or original monk...

Three is a lot of class features to share with another unique base class. It makes it seem like your class could be a variant or PrC. Then you have Mettle, which is shared with another base class, and Bonus Feats, which are kind of bland. Just sayin'. I do like the elemental styles, even though they do seem like they might be better off as feats. In fact, if you did make them feats that a rogue or fighter could take, that might be closer to what you're going for.

Zeta Kai
2009-12-07, 09:15 PM
Turns are discreet time units and you can't make AoOs before you've acted, though you can still use an Immediate action.

This defeats the entire purpose of attacks of opportunity, which was to prevent a scenario in which someone could just run past opponents to strike vital targets behind their lines. With the rule above, all an assassin would have to do to stab the king is win initiative (not hard, for a prepared assassin), & the guards couldn't touch him until their turn came up. Bad Idea.

Mulletmanalive
2009-12-07, 09:21 PM
You say that but experience has proven otherwise in play. It might be something to do with the Full action i haven't mentioned that grants a +10 on Initiative, or it might just be the way i run combat.

With this, people who don't have the Improved X feats actually use Combat Manoeuvres sometimes. Low magic world probably helps too. [each to their own, shrug]

Zeta Kai
2009-12-07, 10:45 PM
Okay, here's the scenario:

You are an assassin (let's say a Rogue 5/Assassin 1, just for simplicity). You have an Initiative of +8 (Dex 18 + Improved Initiative); I'm not even trying too hard here. I have a +4d6 sneak attack right outta the box. You're BAB is low, but manageable (+3 to +5). You might even have true strike as a spell. Or a poisoned blade (hidden, of course). Or both.
The opposition is a row of guards. Warriors or Fighters, between 2nd & 4th level, probably. They are somewhat unlikely to have Improved Initiative (Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Toughness, or Alertness are more likely), so we'll say that their Initiatives are between +1 & +3. They are protecting their lord, a low-level aristocrat (8-20HP) who isn't packing much regular armor & doesn't have much magical protection (AC14-18).
You're talking to the lord, at a distance of 30 feet. The conversation is serious, but peaceful; if/when you decide to strike, the guards will be flat-footed until their turn comes up. Since your attack will be during a surprise round, by RAW, the guards won't get a full round of actions until their turn comes up in the Initiative, which will be during the first post-surprise round. Those guards mostly stand between you & the lord, but there is a 5' gap directly between, so that you too may speak.

All in all, a reasonable scenario that could easily happen in the average game. So, the question is, Will the lord survive?

If the guards have attacks of opportunity that they can use before their turn comes up, then yes: they will get AoOs when the assassin enters their threatened space, & a sufficient number of hits will deter an assailant & prevent a regicide. This is how things work in real life.
If the guards cannot use their attacks of opportunity until after their turn in combat, then the king is dead, long live the king. There is simply no real way to guarantee anyone's safety other than your own, & attacks of opportunity become fairly meaningless. This is 2nd Edition AD&D, taken to its logical conclusion (which occurred at my table on more than one occasion, back in the day).

Look, I don't like attacks of opportunity, really. I think that they are clunky, verbose, & confusing for new players. Allowing a character to make a single attack as an immediate action, with a small attack penalty, would've been much simpler (but we didn't have immediate actions back in the beginning of 3E, so yeah). But nerfing attacks of opportunity in this specific manner is patently ridiculous, & undermines your efforts here as a whole. I hope that you understand that this argument is not meant to insult your intentions, but are merely meant to illustrate the absurdity of one small-yet-vital rule change.

Mulletmanalive
2009-12-08, 05:36 AM
You'll have to excuse me this one: you've proven nothing. You've stated that if the assassin in question were to strike, then the guards would be flatfooted because of the surprise round. It states in the PHB that Flatfooted characters cannot make AoOs.

Hence, in your example, the assassin has basically moved from his starting blocks right through the 5ft gap you specified for ease of conversation and stabbed the lord, all without suffering a single attack of opportunity.

In MV, i tabbed on an additional use to Combat Reflexes, just for this sort of scenario; the feat allows Ready Actions to roll over and AoOs before you've acted [I've never found that it's useful normally]. No-one would pick guards who didn't display some of this skill.

It's a little bit moot anyway, because were you an assassin in this scenario in MV, you'd probably just be there to distract the noble while a sniper took up aim at a range of 700+ft and then shot the poor git. Boom, Flatfooted with Power Shot...