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View Full Version : Cheaters; What to do?



Kaun
2009-12-06, 12:05 AM
So one of my players got caught using a D20 with two 20's on it and no 1 last night. I pulled him up on it and was thinking of cutting his xp in half for the session but i am just wondering what others would do in my situation?

Woodsman
2009-12-06, 12:07 AM
First offense?

Have him run his dice by me every session, other than that, let him off with a warning.

Doc Roc
2009-12-06, 12:08 AM
So he's cheating, and that's the best he can do?

I have a better idea. Get 5 of those, and hand them out to all your players. Critical failure is conceivably one of the stupidest hold-overs imaginable.

truemane
2009-12-06, 12:08 AM
If you can game without him, tell him next time it happens he won't be invited to the gaming sessions any more.

If you can't, I'd honestly dock him all his XP for the night. Or worse. But then, I hate cheaters more than I hate almost anything. Cheating at something as inconsequential and as unimportant (in the big picture) as a D&D game seems so slimy to me that I'd find it hard to keep playing with someone I caught doing it.

But half XP is fair too.

Sir_Elderberry
2009-12-06, 12:09 AM
So one of my players got caught using a D20 with two 20's on it and no 1 last night. I pulled him up on it and was thinking of cutting his xp in half for the session but i am just wondering what others would do in my situation?
For the next session, every 20 he rolls is treated as a 1. And he has to keep using that die.

Kantolin
2009-12-06, 12:14 AM
Ask him to stop?

Notify him that you really don't appreciate cheating, please stop. I mean, other options are kind of sidestepping the problem, whether it's docking his XP or (say) punching him in the face. Just 'Dude, not funny'.

Kaun
2009-12-06, 12:18 AM
It not his first offense no, but it is the first one that he cant play of as being a math mistake on his behalf or appoligise due to mis reading his own dice or powers.

i rember one session i kept a secret record of what he said his dice rolls were. (the actual roll not including mods). I dont have the exact info any more due to this being over a year ago but it was something along the line of, with around 65 d20 rolls in the session: only 10 were 14 or lower and only 4 were under 10.

He just hates to fail at anything for some reason and every time we put a stop to one thing he seems to find another.

Its a shame really because he is a good mate.

jmbrown
2009-12-06, 12:20 AM
A modified d20? Hardly an offense to do something drastic. Check his dice the next game session and move on. It's not like he was fudging numbers or modifying his spell list mid-day.

Temotei
2009-12-06, 12:20 AM
You could hug him and say: "My boy! How long I've waited for you to join me!" Then proceed to take over the world, while cheating at life.

On a serious note: Let him go for this one time. Check the dice next time. If he brings it again, have his character sent to Baator, where he earns no experience, no items (and he loses all of his current things), and have him lose all of his current experience, including levels. Then have a devil come up to him and play with him in combat, to give him a false sense of hope that you, as the DM, will save him from this thing. Then kill his character. Then kill him.

ghashxx
2009-12-06, 12:24 AM
For the next session, every 20 he rolls is treated as a 1. And he has to keep using that die.

This is really the perfect punishment. You're not smacking him down hardcore, you're just doing to the game the exact opposite of what he did. It's completely fair and it's a total "action results with opposite and equal reaction".

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-06, 12:45 AM
Bring out a Dremel and cut the dice in half.

snoopy13a
2009-12-06, 12:49 AM
Or you could have other players (or yourself) roll for him. That way, he doesn't get an actual substantial penalty such as XP loss but he gets a psychological penalty by not being able to roll himself.

Having his 20s count as 1s punishes him but it can also punish innocent 3rd party players indirectly.

Temotei
2009-12-06, 12:49 AM
Bring out a Dremel and cut the dice in half.

:smallbiggrin: I like this one.


For the next session, every 20 he rolls is treated as a 1. And he has to keep using that die.

Although, I hadn't seen this before. This is the best solution proposed. Still...Pharaoh's Fist has a good solution too. I'd do it just for fun, even if they weren't cheating. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Alternatively, just act as if every roll is one lower than it actually is, if you didn't want to make him never have critical hits.

drengnikrafe
2009-12-06, 12:54 AM
Get all exostential on him, and make him feel guilty about it.

Really, if you can get him to realize that he's only ruining the experience for himself by eliminating the possibility of a critical failure, and thus taking out that always-present possibility of failure regardless of your otherwise awesomeness at tasks... well, is he gaming to have fun, or is he just gaming to win? If he's just gaming to win, has he ever gamed just to have fun? Doe she remember how much better that was? Etc.

ocdscale
2009-12-06, 12:58 AM
I think you need to strike a balance between not burning bridges.
And letting your players know that you take personal offense when they cheat because it breaks down some of the trust between player and DM (and between friends).

Half-XP for the session and a warning that you won't tolerate future cheating should be fine. You know your group best.

Indoran
2009-12-06, 12:58 AM
shame him, expose him... be cruel... hurt his pride :D

I have done it... for example I had a player (a girl) who liked to roll twice... she had done it with other dms... but the first time she did it with me was the last... i just pointed out how it was "against the rules" loudly enough so everybody could hear... but low enough so it sounded casual (and condescending)...

She never did it again...

Temet Nosce
2009-12-06, 01:02 AM
Really, if you can get him to realize that he's only ruining the experience for himself by eliminating the possibility of a critical failure, and thus taking out that always-present possibility of failure regardless of your otherwise awesomeness at tasks... well, is he gaming to have fun, or is he just gaming to win? If he's just gaming to win, has he ever gamed just to have fun? Doe she remember how much better that was? Etc.

I kind of agree with Doc on critical failures, the idea that every character no matter how good fails 1 in 20 times is well... rather foolish in my opinion. The problem is less that he altered some important element of the game, than that he betrayed your trust as I see it.

Personally I've never encountered a situation like this (I only DM online), so I'm unsure how I'd react. Still, you might talk it over with your other players and see how they feel about the guys antics. If it's not a big deal, check his dice, roll your eyes, and be done with it. If it is, then you should probably do something about it and just doing the same to him won't really solve the problem.

Levithix
2009-12-06, 01:06 AM
This reminds me of somebody's sig that said something about not rolling dice unless you were willing to roll a 1.

All and all, I really wouldn't see it as that bad ... he probably would have been better off to talk to the DM and worked out something about his character being really lucky. I don't know about you, but if one of my players was really afraid of his character failing and wanted his character to always roll well, I'd let him spend a feat to do it better.

We have five people in our group (we rotate DMs). Three of us can optimize and the other two ... not so much. I give the other two beneficial homebrew feats to allow their characters to be on par. The rest of us don't really want it cause we'd rather do what we can with what we have.

I guess I kinda went off topic, but the point is that you should talk to the player and figure out why he felt the need to cheat. (I cheat all the time as DM and not at all when a player, but technically DMs can't cheat, what with being the god of gods in the game)

Sliver
2009-12-06, 01:22 AM
Throw a tantrum and cry, in front of the entire group next game. Make sure everybody else know you are acting to make him feel bad so they play along.

Kaun
2009-12-06, 03:25 AM
Throw a tantrum and cry, in front of the entire group next game. Make sure everybody else know you are acting to make him feel bad so they play along.

Thats how i start and end most sessions.

Generaly when i know hes fudging his rolls up i just fudge the target numbers up aswell.

His cheating tends to irritate the other players tho, i know one of them is close to having a go at him for it.

Im starting to think an electro shock treatment may be the best idea or hitting him on the nose with a rolled up news paper.

Temotei
2009-12-06, 03:26 AM
This reminds me of somebody's sig that said something about not rolling dice unless you were willing to roll a 1.

That's Mando Knight.

Mahtobedis
2009-12-06, 03:35 AM
I think I would do what Sir_Elderberry recommended and then every time I caught him cheating starting with this incident I would give every other player something that I would not give him. Things like bonus exp, or magic items, or the luck feat that turns 1's into 20's.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2009-12-06, 03:57 AM
I'll second the "other players roll his dice." He's lost that privilege, at least for now. Oh, and I'd also keep a copy of his sheet so you can correct him when he makes his "honest" mistakes. When you end up correcting him (and he ends up brushing it off as an honest mistake) you can make snide comments about how this is reminiscent of the time he mistakenly used the bogus d20.

AslanCross
2009-12-06, 04:40 AM
Microwave the die until it melts or explodes. Have him watch.

Seriously, I'd confiscate the die and tell him to never do it again. Or you could go the democratic way and ask the other party members what to do with him. That way, everyone gets the picture that you take cheating seriously.

Serpentine
2009-12-06, 04:57 AM
I think, considering this is apparently a habit, you should do this:
At the start of the next game, when everyone's sitting down, give a bit of a speech about how you will not tolerate cheating in your game, and that more to the point it's absurdly stupid to even try in a game where you're not even trying to beat your fellow players. Give the perpetrator a pointed look if you want.
Then, set out new rules that apply to everyone: all dice are to be checked at the start of a game; No dice are to be touched unless they are to be rolled (so noone can "drop" a die and take or leave the result); All dice must be rolled on a set surface (e.g. a table) (so everyone can see the result); All dice that roll off the surface are rerolled (no taking or leaving according to the result); Any dice that lands on the surface is to be used (no "that wasn't my roll, this is my roll now"); any others you can think of.
Depending on what other things he might be doing, consider going over everyone's character sheets just to check all the numbers - they can get messed up by accident as well as design, so it could be worth checking them anyway.

Rixx
2009-12-06, 05:37 AM
Allow him to keep playing with you on the condition that you get to destroy his cheat die in front of everyone before the game starts.

BobVosh
2009-12-06, 06:33 AM
Cut one finger off for each time he cheats. It is the only way he will learn. The others will then herd behind your strong leadership.

If you have one of those old D20s that go to 10 twice, let him use that for a session. Always fun.

If you can play without him and his cheating bothers you, just do that. If you can't and it bothers you, just ignore several sets of damage, or jack up the DC, etc. As with all things, anything you do the DM can do better. Especially cheating.

Sploosh
2009-12-06, 07:03 AM
Take the die, and you then use it on the rolls against him from npcs for the rest of the campaign.

742
2009-12-06, 07:18 AM
or hitting him on the nose with a rolled up news paper.

i was going to reccomend talking and figuring out the problem, why he cheats ect; remembering that punishing players does no good and the objective is to have fun, but this idea is great! just make sure to scold him in a firm but not angry voice when you do it and you should be both fine and much much cooler than you were before.

Sliver
2009-12-06, 07:48 AM
i was going to reccomend talking and figuring out the problem, why he cheats ect; remembering that punishing players does no good and the objective is to have fun, but this idea is great! just make sure to scold him in a firm but not angry voice when you do it and you should be both fine and much much cooler than you were before.

+1. The most advised course of action. Do it!

Amphetryon
2009-12-06, 07:54 AM
Say this to him in front of the group:
"Dude, you feel a need to cheat at a game of make-believe which is specifically designed so that nobody wins as long as everyone has fun? Seriously? Wow, I feel badly for you. Anyhow, it cheapens everyone else's fun, so don't do it again, mmmmkay?"

:smallamused:

Gamerlord
2009-12-06, 08:01 AM
So one of my players got caught using a D20 with two 20's on it and no 1 last night. I pulled him up on it and was thinking of cutting his xp in half for the session but i am just wondering what others would do in my situation?

Perma level drained to lvl 1, lose all money and equipment, magical and nonemagical, then summon Orcus on him.

When he dies, rip his Char sheet in half, tell him to make a new char, and to buy some new dice....OR ELSE.

taltamir
2009-12-06, 08:08 AM
this is a game where people play together to have fun. cheating is ruining that fun.

You should discuss this with the whole group. Punish him? are you his father or teacher? you are supposed to be friends getting together and playing. What would you do if your friend is cheating at chess or monopoly?

What you need to do is discuss it with the group, there is a very real chance of kicking someone out (if giving extra chances, kicking out on next offense). or whatever your group feels is appropriate, with some groups you can make a game out of it where people try to cheat and get penalized if caught, and bonuses if not. So you can practice your IRL sleight of hand and spot skills.

crimson77
2009-12-06, 08:16 AM
I would first of all not recommend seeking revenge upon the player. This is likely going to end poorly with the player being mad and the group taking sides. Trust me, getting into an arguing match is one of the worst ways to spend a night of gaming.

Now given that cheater dice (http://paizo.com/store/gameAids/dice/byManufacturer/chessex/cheatDice) are readily available and that even normal dice can tend to roll high or low (http://www.gamescience.com/). In reality his dice was only doubling his chance for a natural 20 and giving him a 5% greater chance to hit, it really is not the worst kind of cheating. He could just be lying about his rolls.

Now I would do either one of these next.
1A. Talk to him privately about cheating. You could handle this similar to talking with power gamers. Power gaming is similar to the arms race, each side (DM and Players) will try much harder to become stronger. However, the DM always wins because there are way more challenging monsters than PC race/class/feat/spell combinations.

1B. Talk to the group and single out the player for using the dice. Say he has two options right now. Leave his dice in his car/backpack and play with a normal d20 or purchase cheater dice for the rest of the group that way everything is even. He will most likely choose to not use the dice. Then spending $5 per player to buy them some new dice.

Now make a house rule that all dice have to be rolled in plain sight or you will start rolling for the party. If he keeps cheating then maybe it is time to ask him to leave or start a new campaign.

I think another important point to make is that one, as a DM, cannot cheat and expect players not to cheat. I think that DM "fudging" rolls is just as bad as players. The dice are there to add an element of randomness to the game. Without the dice it would just be people telling stories together.

Zen Master
2009-12-06, 08:23 AM
So one of my players got caught using a D20 with two 20's on it and no 1 last night. I pulled him up on it and was thinking of cutting his xp in half for the session but i am just wondering what others would do in my situation?

Count his crits as automatic misses for a while.

I had a player who rutinely cheated - using a die on which no one could see the numbers, then exclaiming '17 - a hit!' or some such and instantly swiping the die away before anyone could check.

I just never deducted his damage from the monsters hitpoints. He figured that out eventually, and it stopped.

Fitz10019
2009-12-06, 09:40 AM
I had a player who rutinely cheated - using a die on which no one could see the numbers, then exclaiming '17 - a hit!' or some such and instantly swiping the die away before anyone could check.

I just never deducted his damage from the monsters hitpoints. He figured that out eventually, and it stopped.

That's brilliant.

Another approach could be that the goddess of chance is really offended by his actions, but she's more of a prankster than a smiter. Every time he rolls a 20 in combat, the goddess strikes: his pants fall down and he's at half movement until he spends a move action pulling his pants up.

Sliver
2009-12-06, 09:43 AM
That's brilliant.

Another approach could be that the goddess of chance is really offended by his actions, but she's more of a prankster than a smiter. Every time he rolls a 20 in combat, the goddess strikes: his pants fall down and he's at half movement until he spends a move action pulling his pants up.

He is in melee, so reduced movement is not that effective.. A personal Hedge Wizard that follows around, invisibly, and curses his actions, might be interesting.. He can spoil his food, make him trip or disarm his weapon, all hedge wizard spells..

Brendan
2009-12-06, 10:56 AM
sneak that die into his snack. Rescue him from choking. Play it like the die had fallen in there by chance. Talk about karma. He is permanantly indebted to you.
Really, though, I would suggest you send a small horde of inevitables, homebrewed to level drain, who want to punish him for "running amok with the very basest laws of probability"
Then, also talk to him out of game, and ask him what the problem was and try to reason with him. Let him see it from your point of view.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-12-06, 10:57 AM
So he's cheating, and that's the best he can do?

I have a better idea. Get 5 of those, and hand them out to all your players. Critical failure is conceivably one of the stupidest hold-overs imaginable.

That being said, we should remove ultimate success too. :smalltongue:

I haven't come across cheaters, but if they are using loaded dice, then as a 'punishment' you should halve their XP as you said, but also force them to use dice that you own for a few sessions. Just to ensure they cannot cheat with false dice.

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Jastermereel
2009-12-06, 11:29 AM
Really, though, I would suggest you send a small horde of inevitables, homebrewed to level drain, who want to punish him for "running amok with the very basest laws of probability"

Seconded.

It really is a job for an Inevitable. After all, violating the rules of probability would probably piss of Mechanus something awful. Since he's the only culprit, it won't hurt the other players (provided they don't get in the way) and the subsequent punishment could fit the crime (like the 20s counting as 1s for a time).

Well, that and the less amusing and more responsible and mature interpersonal communications...

Starbuck_II
2009-12-06, 11:40 AM
I don't see this as that bad of cheating.
Really, how often has he rolled a 20 during these sessions?

Unless it is often, then the die did nothing.

23minds
2009-12-06, 01:12 PM
I don't see this as that bad of cheating.
Really, how often has he rolled a 20 during these sessions?

Unless it is often, then the die did nothing.

Yeah, he may not have rolled twenties every time, but the fact that he is SPENDING MONEY to cheat says that this is turning into a serious problem with him. IDK, even if I was playing in the campaign and his cheating was helping the party, I think it would get annoying. I guess you should probably figure out what everyone thinks of it, and go from there. Dock half xp this time, tell him if it happens again he gets no xp for the session, and then make sure he cant cheat next time.

Or just scream "NO, you're WRONG!!! AAAAGH!" every time he tries to lie about a roll. And foam at the mouth a little.

9mm
2009-12-06, 02:15 PM
Yeah, he may not have rolled twenties every time, but the fact that he is SPENDING MONEY
or he did what my friend did, bought a pound of dice, and missed one that shouldn't be used. Never attribute to malice which can equally be explained by stupidity.

again if this is the worst he's done; take the dice away and maybe get a dice tower, but thats it.

Jastermereel
2009-12-06, 02:17 PM
or he did what my friend did, bought a pound of dice, and missed one that shouldn't be used. Never attribute to malice which can equally be explained by stupidity.
A nice sentiment, but over prescribed. There's a lot of stupidity in the world, sure, but malice shouldn't be overlooked. I don't think I've ever heard of someone accidentally using a double-20 die.

Kaun
2009-12-06, 02:36 PM
Count his crits as automatic misses for a while.

I had a player who rutinely cheated - using a die on which no one could see the numbers, then exclaiming '17 - a hit!' or some such and instantly swiping the die away before anyone could check.

I just never deducted his damage from the monsters hitpoints. He figured that out eventually, and it stopped.

Yeah he used to do this so i brought in "THE BOX!!!". Its basicly just a box lid in the middle of the table, the players dice have to land in the box to count as a roll. It got rid of the above mentioned problem and also the whole it landed on an edge i have to reroll thing.

This cheat dice thing seems to be where it evolved to after that.

I also have to keep notes on what power's he has used because he has a nasty habbit of burning dailys more then once a day.
I have to have the books opened to his class section during play because he has a nasty habbit of mis reading words like "Daily" and thinking it says "Encounter" or phrases like "until the end of your next turn" seem to gain words like "minor action to sustain" which arnt actualy there on the paper.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-06, 02:50 PM
It's both hopeful and depressing that even after anecdotes like the above, people will continue to insist that he can just be kindly asked to not cheat or gently rebuked and everything will turn hunky-dory. Especially since it's been stated that the rest of the group is angry with him about this as well, so the 'it'll split the group' logic doesn't apply either.

Start playing serious hardball - have another, trusted player roll his dice for him. Maintain his character sheet and tell him what abilities he's allowed to use each round. Ask another trusted player to do any battlemat movements necessary for his pawn. Break him down and humiliate him, and make it very clear that this collective treatment is because he will not stop cheating. Either he breaks and starts behaving, or stops attending in RAAAAAAAAGE, the group is better off, and you're better off - someone who cheats so determinedly at something so minor really shouldn't qualify as a 'good mate' under any circumstances.

Sliver
2009-12-06, 03:00 PM
Hmm.. Maybe he thinks you will laugh at him if he rolls poorly?

Mando Knight
2009-12-06, 03:25 PM
That's Mando Knight.
You called? :smalltongue:

In the form of dice superstitions, there's not much worse than the DM forcing the player he doesn't trust to use the DM's dice instead. I know, for a fact, that the tendencies of my own d20s despise being rolled by anyone else. I've got empirical data. :smalltongue:

Jerthanis
2009-12-06, 03:32 PM
Pfft, I've used d20s with two twenties. If I hadn't, a fellow PC would've died, and as I see it, I took control of the narrative, stating, "My character saves his friend" and deciding random friggin' chance wasn't going to stop me from making that the narrative I was telling.

It's also like, the "driving 5 miles an hour over the speed limit on the interstate" of cheating. I've seen people make up spells whole cloth and bluff their DM into believing they exist and that their wizard has it memorized. That's cheating (and awesome).

The rules are there to help you have fun. If you'd have fun subverting the rule, don't let 'not being the DM' stop you.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-06, 03:41 PM
And if subverting the rules make the game less fun for others? Such as the DM, your fellow players, etc? I imagine most people have a less than positive reaction to lies and deception.


It's also like, the "driving 5 miles an hour over the speed limit on the interstate" of cheating.


You're playing the male lead in a homage to William Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet and you're late for the dress rehersal. Do you think this is a good enough reason to travel at 48 in a 30 zone? To flout speed limits specifically put in place to save lives?


I've seen people make up spells whole cloth and bluff their DM into believing they exist and that their wizard has it memorized. That's cheating (and awesome).
I've had friends steal from stores and get away with it. Totally awesome.

Mongoose87
2009-12-06, 03:47 PM
And if subverting the rules make the game less fun for others? Such as the DM, your fellow players, etc? I imagine most people have a less than positive reaction to lies and deception.

Nothing irritates me more than a game where there is no chance of failure. No matter how gloriously your rule-bending made things look, it's taking away the sense of danger if it keeps the threat of death from being real. And it's lame.

Andras
2009-12-06, 05:47 PM
Have him roll someone else's dice, and use a cup to roll. I also like the idea of all his 20's becoming 1's for at least a session.

Golden-Esque
2009-12-06, 06:04 PM
There are quite some interesting responses here 0_0.

If it were one of my players, I'd probably give him a crappy night via Rule Zero and tell him afterwards that'll get worse if I catch him cheating in game. To me, the best way to handle cheating in a game is to make in-game consequences for it.

gabado
2009-12-06, 09:13 PM
two pieces of advice:
1. how much do you like this guy, i mean, do you count him as a close friend, or more as an acquaintance with whom you play. if the first part is the case (you like the guy) then give him a stern reprimand and inform him that if he cheats again suggestion 2 will come to be. if you don't like him ether ask him to leave your group or implement suggestion 2.

2. Orcus is never a bad idea, and by Orcus i mean a "chanced," one on one encounter with the Demon Prince himself. let him keep the d20 and see just how long it takes Orcus to rip his immortal soul into tiny pieces and bind them to the edges of the universe. (it doesn't mater which system you are playing because they all include Orcus in one book or another)

as an after though, where do you get a d20 with two 20's, i need to get my hands on one of those, for kicks of course.

Kaun
2009-12-06, 10:38 PM
Pfft, I've used d20s with two twenties. If I hadn't, a fellow PC would've died, and as I see it, I took control of the narrative, stating, "My character saves his friend" and deciding random friggin' chance wasn't going to stop me from making that the narrative I was telling.

It's also like, the "driving 5 miles an hour over the speed limit on the interstate" of cheating. I've seen people make up spells whole cloth and bluff their DM into believing they exist and that their wizard has it memorized. That's cheating (and awesome).

The rules are there to help you have fun. If you'd have fun subverting the rule, don't let 'not being the DM' stop you.

Wow, by this logic why even bother having dice.

I may aswell just start running a free form game and me and my "character actor" mates can sit around in the woods describing to each other just how awesome we are inbetween wolfing down tofu dogs and freshly squeezed turnip juice with the occasional breaks for free for all kum-bi-ya acoustic jam fests and love ins.

All sarcasm aside many of the most memorable and fun moments of my gaming history both as a DM and a player come from when things went horribly wrong rather then perfectly right.

There is only so many sessions of being awesome a person can sit through befor the lack of challenge starts to get old.

Chrono22
2009-12-06, 10:40 PM
I'd tell him if he wants to continue playing, he must use the die. Then I'd implement a houserule that states all roll results of 20 are considered to be a 1, and all roll results of 1 are considered to be a 20.

Fiery Diamond
2009-12-07, 12:42 AM
Since he's cheating in all manner of ways and you have to be vigilant to catch him, here's what I recommend:

Step 1) Tell him it is NOT COOL to cheat. Inform him that he needs to learn to play by the rules because it is not fun for the rest of the group. Tell him that every time you or another player catches him cheating that there will be in-game consequences.

Step 2) Keep vigilant. Make sure he doesn't use that die, keep him rolling in that box so he can't hide his roll. Keep the book open for specifics of his powers and keep a copy of his character sheet with you so you know what his powers and modifiers are.

Step 3) Divide up his offenses into minor, problematic, and severe. Minor offenses would include things like "math errors" that boost his numbers. Every time you catch him on a minor offense, tell him that he is incorrect, and note make a note of it. Every 5 (or some number you think is more reasonable) minor offenses, you can come up with some in-game punishment, a minor or mildly humiliating one. Problematic offenses - you decide what to include in this category; let him know when he's been caught, and every 1 or 2 of these have some in game punishment that's moderate. Severe offenses would be deliberate lies that alter game balance, like using powers as a different type or the "minor action to sustain" thing; or outright lying about what his saves are, for example. Every time he does that, tell him "No," and then do something more severe in game or something like docking all XP for the night.

Step 4) Keep a "3 strikes" rule about severe offenses. Once he hits the quota, find an in-game way of killing off his character. Let him know about this 3 strikes rule.


This, of course, is assuming you want him in your group. I don't understand why you would. I wouldn't let even my best friend play with me if she cheated like that.

Typewriter
2009-12-07, 12:49 AM
My players are allowed to use whatever they want, and I, as DM, am only allowed to use what the players use.

If one player wants to roll a die with two twenties, then every NPC in the world gets to roll a die with two twenties. And every player knows who to thank.

Quieteus
2009-12-07, 01:16 AM
Ask your players what they want to do with him. Since this is fairly habitual it should be pretty clear that everyone should watch him like a hawk. If it disrupts the game, bounce him.

Ryacko
2009-12-07, 01:29 AM
My opinion:

invert the roll results, by having every die roll equal 21-D20= result.

So if he rolls a 20, it's a one. If he rolls a three, it's 18.

herrhauptmann
2009-12-07, 01:50 AM
Unless he's your best friend or something, don't play with him. Don't invite him to games.
Create a new character (Party pc) which all the players use.
Each encounter, a different player controls the (party pc), and since I'm sure this is 4E, make it a leader class, so it can help the party, but the person using it can't use it to only buff/aid his own character.

dsmiles
2009-12-07, 05:17 AM
If you can game without him, tell him next time it happens he won't be invited to the gaming sessions any more.

If you can't, I'd honestly dock him all his XP for the night. Or worse. But then, I hate cheaters more than I hate almost anything. Cheating at something as inconsequential and as unimportant (in the big picture) as a D&D game seems so slimy to me that I'd find it hard to keep playing with someone I caught doing it.

This. But if you can't play without him, 0, count 'em Z-E-R-O XP for that session. I despise cheaters. :smallfurious:

Jerthanis
2009-12-07, 05:26 AM
And if subverting the rules make the game less fun for others? Such as the DM, your fellow players, etc? I imagine most people have a less than positive reaction to lies and deception.


If they find out about it and don't like it, you should stop, but you don't have to tell them. Cheating at a cooperative game with no set win or loss conditions isn't a big enough deal that anyone should be offended by it happening in the past. It's not like a sports championship where the efforts of both teams are undermined by one player being revealed to be on steroids. If it's the illusion of fairness or the challenge of knocking down arbitrary barriers that gets you excited about a game over the story you're telling with it, then yeah, cheating is about the worst thing you can do, and my advice will be useless.

If not, it's just not worth getting worked up over.


I've had friends steal from stores and get away with it. Totally awesome.

Sure, you can't build a society on the idea of cheating or theft being okay, but there are certain situations where both are useful and impressive, if not exactly admirable.

Remember, one of the classic four adventuring roles is the Thief.


Wow, by this logic why even bother having dice.


Good point, this must be why I do precisely this at times. (Not the obvious sarcasm about sitting around describing people being utterly and endlessly awesome, just the idea of not using dice.)

Good thing you can't be wrong about the way you play RPGs, huh?

Snails
2009-12-07, 01:02 PM
Obviously you like this guy personally. I think that learning to overcome personal foibles at the game table for the sake of friendship is something to encourage.


Yeah he used to do this so i brought in "THE BOX!!!". Its basicly just a box lid in the middle of the table, the players dice have to land in the box to count as a roll. It got rid of the above mentioned problem and also the whole it landed on an edge i have to reroll thing.

This cheat dice thing seems to be where it evolved to after that.

Hmm. Well, then he does not get to use his own dice, for a while.

And NPCs should get to use his die against him for a session.



I also have to keep notes on what power's he has used because he has a nasty habbit of burning dailys more then once a day.
I have to have the books opened to his class section during play because he has a nasty habbit of mis reading words like "Daily" and thinking it says "Encounter" or phrases like "until the end of your next turn" seem to gain words like "minor action to sustain" which arnt actualy there on the paper.

I think he should be required to have Powers cards, that he hands physically to you when he uses any Power. Obviously you are not going to carefully read it everything time, but you could quick check it and hand it over for careful perusal by another player.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-07, 01:05 PM
If they find out about it and don't like it, you should stop, but you don't have to tell them. Cheating at a cooperative game with no set win or loss conditions isn't a big enough deal that anyone should be offended by it happening in the past.

I note you glossed over the part involving lies and deception.

Implicit in most gaming groups, including this one I would imagine, is the agreement that players will not use fixed dice or cheat in other ways. The point of the game is not just to have fun, but for all participants to have fun. Cheating like that does not serve the "greater good" as one might say and impedes on other's fun. Cheating so that others can have fun is sometimes acceptable (such as DM fiat) but I severely doubt the cheater was doing it for the group's benefit in this case.

Does this not violate the pact made between the participants of the gaming group? Does it not make it harder to play with someone whom you know has broken the trust between the members of the group?

Answer the question! Don't wait for the translation, answer me now!



Remember, one of the classic four adventuring roles is the Thief.
And another is White Mage, but you don't see me casting healing spells on a daily basis. Most people keep their fantasy gaming separate from their real lives.

Btw, read your story about "taking control of the narrative" and saving your friend. Don't really approve. The game assumes that the DM controls the narrative, and if you can't play by the rules, you should really find a game better suited to you.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-07, 01:28 PM
If they find out about it and don't like it, you should stop, but you don't have to tell them. Cheating at a cooperative game with no set win or loss conditions isn't a big enough deal that anyone should be offended by it happening in the past. It's not like a sports championship where the efforts of both teams are undermined by one player being revealed to be on steroids. If it's the illusion of fairness or the challenge of knocking down arbitrary barriers that gets you excited about a game over the story you're telling with it, then yeah, cheating is about the worst thing you can do, and my advice will be useless.

If not, it's just not worth getting worked up over.
Cheating, by definition, is violating the trust that's placed in you. If you would violate the trust of friends so that you can have your way? That's a shortsighted view, and may well end you up out of a group.

D&D is a social game. To that end, decisions that don't enhance everyone's fun? Aren't good decisions. Assuming your friends won't care unless they CATCH you (hint, if they have to catch you, you're hiding something, and if you're hiding something, why? If it's no big deal, why conceal it? Unless all you're cared about is the illusion of fairness, whilst you do whatever you want?) is not a safe assumption to make.

Sure, you can't build a society on the idea of cheating or theft being okay, but there are certain situations where both are useful and impressive, if not exactly admirable.

Remember, one of the classic four adventuring roles is the Thief.Playing a CHARACTER that stabs strangers in the back for amusement is one thing. Being a friend that does it is another. The reason that cheating and theft make bad society models is that they destroy trust. Trust is a rather important thing in a social game.



Good point, this must be why I do precisely this at times. (Not the obvious sarcasm about sitting around describing people being utterly and endlessly awesome, just the idea of not using dice.)

Good thing you can't be wrong about the way you play RPGs, huh?
Quite simply, if you don't bother rolling to tell people what's going to happen, you take their choices and influence away, in favor of their own.

Bad breaks happen. They're often a part of good storytelling. Name me one great combat based story of our time where a protagonist doesn't die.

Without a method to determine things that's fair and not wholly predictable, you're not playing an RPG. You're hijacking 4 other people's ideas while you create a book that you're not even bothering to write down.

Don't play a game where success and failure is determined by dice unless you're willing to roll them.

Don't roll a die unless you're willing to accept the result.

In other words? If you're not willing to accept chance as an element, then D&D isn't for you. Try chess, or checkers, or something else that doesn't have a random element. They're great games that fill your quota of self determination in a fair manner.

dsmiles
2009-12-07, 01:51 PM
Wall'o'Text.

Absolutely agree with the above wall. I severely punish cheaters at my table, and will continue to do so. But then again, I've only ever had one cheater in any of my groups, and that was dealt with harshly. He was summarily ejected from the game, and not allowed back.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-07, 02:05 PM
Obviously, you need to stop the cheating.

Many people are going for the "punish extremely harshly" route, which ends up smacking more of anger than trying to actually fix things. By the same token, ignoring the problem will fail to fix it.

Tell the guy to get a new dice...but that for the next x sessions(where x is the number of sessions he used this one), he must count 20s as 1s to balance out his luck. It's a form of punishment, and one that is quite fair. Makes it very hard for the issue to be derailed into personal grudges. Also, it avoids you needing to call him out as a cheater(unless you want to), and is also a reasonable way of handling it in the event it's an honest mistake.

Wierd dice do happen sometimes. One of my friends got a misprinted D4 with different number positions on each side of the dice, resulting in much confusion.

Obviously, if the cheating takes other forms and continues, punishments must escalate until he either learns, or leaves. Stubborn, persistant cheating, is a social problem, not a game mechanic one.

Jerthanis
2009-12-07, 05:26 PM
I note you glossed over the part involving lies and deception.

Implicit in most gaming groups, including this one I would imagine, is the agreement that players will not use fixed dice or cheat in other ways.

Why is it implicit? Why is lying or deception intrinsically bad? Why do you have to choose to be offended when someone lies to you? It is a choice and if the lie wasn't about anything important, why would you get upset over nothing?



Does this not violate the pact made between the participants of the gaming group? Does it not make it harder to play with someone whom you know has broken the trust between the members of the group?

Answer the question! Don't wait for the translation, answer me now!

I don't remember signing a contract not to cheat. I do remember that the DM is there to bend the rules to make the game more fun, and I don't see why he alone should have that privilege. And no, knowing the DM might be cheating because I've seen him cheat before doesn't make the game less fun.

It's only a violation of trust if you invest in the idea that no one is cheating, which is not a necessary investment in a game like an RPG. This is one way RPGs are different from Monopoly or Sporting events.



Btw, read your story about "taking control of the narrative" and saving your friend. Don't really approve. The game assumes that the DM controls the narrative, and if you can't play by the rules, you should really find a game better suited to you.

Why does the game assume the DM controls the narrative? In what way does the game benefit from a single ruler rather than by committee? Also, why do you feel you have the right to tell me what games I am suited to?



Playing a CHARACTER that stabs strangers in the back for amusement is one thing. Being a friend that does it is another. The reason that cheating and theft make bad society models is that they destroy trust. Trust is a rather important thing in a social game.

My group knows I have cheated in the past, and knows I may cheat in the future. The other guy (who made up a spell on the spot, bluffed the DM that he had it, later revealed what he did) is still in our group. Before he joined the army, we had a guy who once used a Magic: The Gathering life point tracker d20, where 20 - 1 is printed in sequence, and practiced for hours to always roll on the high end of that.

We trust each other to play characters who are full of life, love, passion, flaws, pet peeves, irrational fears, insight, gullibility and so on. We don't see the problem with being hung up on whether you have a 5% chance to score a critical or a 10% chance.



Without a method to determine things that's fair and not wholly predictable, you're not playing an RPG. You're hijacking 4 other people's ideas while you create a book that you're not even bothering to write down.

Why then do diceless RPGs exist? Or ones where the defeated player gets to negotiate terms of its defeat in context of the larger story? Why not consider that if those other four people take control of the narrative in some way or another on their turns that it isn't still a successful group storytelling endeavor?



In other words? If you're not willing to accept chance as an element, then D&D isn't for you. Try chess, or checkers, or something else that doesn't have a random element. They're great games that fill your quota of self determination in a fair manner.

Chess is very difficult to use to tell a love story. It's hard to attach names and ambitions to pawns. The Bishops are never plotting a revolt against the King. The King cannot be abusive towards his wife. The Knights cannot choose to abandon their oaths to always ride in L shaped patterns, and have one later fall into a major depression because of that choice. It's also difficult to enable five people to play at once.

Hmm... seems like D&D and other RPGs fill my needs better than Chess after all. Thanks for the suggestion though.

I'm not saying everyone should go crazy with cheating. I'm saying it's a useful storytelling tool for the DM as well as the players. And this fact means you shouldn't punish players who cheat occasionally. Players who constantly cheat are easy to deal with, because when you doubt everything they say and do, you can see straight through the deception, and everyone remembers you used Rain of Blades last encounter. DMs who constantly cheat will find their players voting with their feet and walking away.

nepphi
2009-12-07, 05:39 PM
Why then do diceless RPGs exist? Or ones where the defeated player gets to negotiate terms of its defeat in context of the larger story? Why not consider that if those other four people take control of the narrative in some way or another on their turns that it isn't still a successful group storytelling endeavor?



Missed the point rather spectacularly there. Diceless RPGs have set ways of determining what happens, which are written down in their rulesets. These rules are agreed upon when everyone agrees to play using them - that's the implicit agreement. "We're playing Amber Diceless" is the same as saying "We're playing 4e," inasmuch as it means you're playing using those rules. Hence, since the group was playing "DnD" and not "DnD plus funky dice," he's explicitly cheating, which is a violation of that implicit social contract. The form of the rules don't matter, if you break them you're cheating.

Jerthanis
2009-12-07, 05:49 PM
Missed the point rather spectacularly there. Diceless RPGs have set ways of determining what happens, which are written down in their rulesets. These rules are agreed upon when everyone agrees to play using them - that's the implicit agreement. "We're playing Amber Diceless" is the same as saying "We're playing 4e," inasmuch as it means you're playing using those rules. Hence, since the group was playing "DnD" and not "DnD plus funky dice," he's explicitly cheating, which is a violation of that implicit social contract. The form of the rules don't matter, if you break them you're cheating.

I'm just arguing that cheating is not a big deal and the player should not be punished for it, and I listed a horde of reasons why.

We got a little off topic talking about the nature of conflict resolution systems in RPGs, but ultimately I feel that cheating is a negligible offense around any tables interested primarily in storytelling, and at worst you should simply keep an eye on his future activities if you feel his actions take away from your fun. (for a reason I cannot personally fathom)

Saph
2009-12-07, 05:49 PM
Why is it implicit? Why is lying or deception intrinsically bad?

As Phoenix pointed out, the fact that you feel the need to lie about it in the first place might be taken as a sign that you should think twice before going through with the plan.

The whole point of having a set of rules is that it assumes that people will actually follow them. If you cheat and others don't, you have an unfair advantage. If everyone cheats, why are you even playing with rules in the first place?

averagejoe
2009-12-07, 05:54 PM
Why is it implicit? Why is lying or deception intrinsically bad? Why do you have to choose to be offended when someone lies to you? It is a choice and if the lie wasn't about anything important, why would you get upset over nothing?

I don't know that getting offended is very useful, so I'll agree with you there. However, my discovery of a person lying to me, especially one who does it in such a shameless manner as you describe, leads me to believe that further association with this person will be bad for my personal well being. You say that the lie wasn't about anything important, but who are you to decide that? How do I know that you'll recognize when it is important to be truthful, and why should I trust you not to lie even if you do? And who are you to tell me (or anyone) when a matter is unimportant enough to lie about? If it works for your group then great-I and nobody has any right to tell your group what play style works for them-but to most people this sort of thing represents a danger to themselves (even if that isn't precisely how they think of it.)

And, in any case, knowledge about whether other players consider it "important" or "more fun" clearly can't be obtained, because you're not telling them about it. You're essentially taking a leap of faith, betting that this action won't harm another person even though it might, when, without losing anything, you can take an equivalent action (not cheating) that you can be reasonably certain will not hurt anyone present. Again, maybe it works for your group, but you can't take as an article of faith that it works universally.

Friend Computer
2009-12-07, 06:04 PM
Why is it implicit? Why is lying or deception intrinsically bad? Why do you have to choose to be offended when someone lies to you? It is a choice and if the lie wasn't about anything important, why would you get upset over nothing?
There is an agreement, when you play any sort of game, that you will use a particular set of rules. Saying that D&D is somehow different to Monopoly or sporting events in this respect shows nothing but apologetics for breaking trust. That D&D is inconsequential in the grand scheme of things is also irrelevent (as is the fact that Monopoly and sporting events are, as well), because the issue is the breach of trust, not the magnitude. If you can't trust someone to play be the rules in a game where nothing is at stake, then you cannot trust the person in any other area of life. Not only that, but the person is saying 'I know you dislike this, and I know I'm lying and breaching trust, but your trust means so little to me, regardless.'

As for advice, I'd tell him to simply stop doing it, or he can't come to games any more. When he does it again, kick him out. He already thinks he can get away with anything, and obviously lacks any respect for you or the group, so why keep him around--as a gamer, or as a friend?

Jerthanis
2009-12-07, 06:06 PM
I don't know that getting offended is very useful, so I'll agree with you there. However, my discovery of a person lying to me, especially one who does it in such a shameless manner as you describe, leads me to believe that further association with this person will be bad for my personal well being. You say that the lie wasn't about anything important, but who are you to decide that? How do I know that you'll recognize when it is important to be truthful, and why should I trust you not to lie even if you do? And who are you to tell me (or anyone) when a matter is unimportant enough to lie about? If it works for your group then great-I and nobody has any right to tell your group what play style works for them-but to most people this sort of thing represents a danger to themselves (even if that isn't precisely how they think of it.)

I truly envy you for being able to trust anyone. Ever.



And, in any case, knowledge about whether other players consider it "important" or "more fun" clearly can't be obtained, because you're not telling them about it. You're essentially taking a leap of faith, betting that this action won't harm another person even though it might, when, without losing anything, you can take an equivalent action (not cheating) that you can be reasonably certain will not hurt anyone present. Again, maybe it works for your group, but you can't take as an article of faith that it works universally.

I hadn't thought of it this way. Perhaps the path of may cause harm is worse morally than probably will not cause harm, even if the degree is small.

I still argue that he should not be punished.

nepphi
2009-12-07, 06:09 PM
I'll agree that punishment is probably going too far. He hasn't done serious harm (though he has breached the state of trust), so punishment is probably excessive. Simply mention publicly that further instances will result in being asked to leave the game. Your rule is that you play fairly to play at all, then have him sit out a week if he doesn't. Going further is just petty, but there does need to be an understanding of how a game should be.

RandomNPC
2009-12-07, 06:19 PM
i was gonna say put him on some form of probation. but then you mentioned how he's been caught with "fuzzy math" as i put it. With as much cheating as you've mentioned, i'd give this guy a big hearty 'get out of my house' or atleast 'game' if you're not at your house.

who knows, maybe the confrontation will give you a lanky bugger like story to tell. worst case scenario of course.

but as far as fuzzy math and the like? wana know why my brother in law isn't at my game table anymore? (his grades actually were the final blow, but the fuzzy math didn't help)

averagejoe
2009-12-07, 06:20 PM
I truly envy you for being able to trust anyone. Ever.

Believe me, I have big issues when it comes to trust and communication, which is why lying irritates me so much. However, at some point the only viable alternative becomes never interact with people, which is even more unacceptable. For me it's about acceptable risks, not trust. In some ways I envy you for being able to trust your mates enough to be okay with them lying to you.


I still argue that he should not be punished.

I tend to agree. One instance of cheating is a relatively minor thing, even if his motives weren't pure. However, the main reason I agree is because punishment probably wouldn't be constructive, not because this matter doesn't need to be somehow handled.

Edit: Also, for clarification, the other big reason it's problematic in this instance is because it sounds like the guy cheats because he doesn't want to "lose." If someone did cheat for reasons of the narrative (though I've never before encountered such a person, so this is speculation) I might find it a bit more acceptable, or at least less annoying. I'm open to the idea that players might get some amount of control over what happens (and, as a DM, have on many occasions have allowed the players to say, "This should happen because it would be awesome, even though it's against the rules,") but I see no reason that it couldn't be handled in open discussion. Then again, my group seems to be less problematic than most as far as player behavior, so maybe this is a luxury I take for granted.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-07, 06:53 PM
Why is it implicit? Why is lying or deception intrinsically bad? Why do you have to choose to be offended when someone lies to you? It is a choice and if the lie wasn't about anything important, why would you get upset over nothing?
Oh, I'm not upset over anything. That doesn't mean I don't feel that punishment is underserved.

One's emotional state has little bearing on whether someone should be punished for infractions or not.


I don't remember signing a contract not to cheat.
I don't remember signing a contract not to stab people in the face. Hmm....


I do remember that the DM is there to bend the rules to make the game more fun, and I don't see why he alone should have that privilege.
Because rule zero says he can, but no rules say you can?


And no, knowing the DM might be cheating because I've seen him cheat before doesn't make the game less fun.
The DM can't cheat by definition.


It's only a violation of trust if you invest in the idea that no one is cheating, which is not a necessary investment in a game like an RPG.
You're right. Absolutely right.

The group of the OP seems to have invested in the idea that players are not supposed to cheat, btw. I guess it's a violation of trust after all!

Thank you, please come again.


Why does the game assume the DM controls the narrative? In what way does the game benefit from a single ruler rather than by committee?
Because dictatorships take people places faster than a committee. Ever get 5 cats to walk in the same direction?

If we played DnD by committe, it becomes a competition of "Nu-uh! Uhuh!nu-uh!" where nothing bad ever happens ever because everyone have their character win at everything forever and the story goes all over the place without direction.


Also, why do you feel you have the right to tell me what games I am suited to?
Because I have money.



We trust each other to play characters who are full of life, love, passion, flaws, pet peeves, irrational fears, insight, gullibility and so on. We don't see the problem with being hung up on whether you have a 5% chance to score a critical or a 10% chance.
Then why play a dice based RPG in the first place, if you don't want to get hung up on the chance of failure?


Why then do diceless RPGs exist?
To cater to people who don't like to roll dice. People who shouldn't be playing in dice based RPGs if they feel it necessary to cheat in. Call it an alternative.


I'm not saying everyone should go crazy with cheating. I'm saying it's a useful storytelling tool for the DM as well as the players.
In a different RPG, it would be. But not in this one.

tbarrie
2009-12-07, 07:35 PM
Why then do diceless RPGs exist?

I won't comment on why they exist, but doesn't their existence severely undercut your argument? The existence of diceless RPG is well-known, sufficiently well-known that if a group chooses to play a dice-based game we can reasonably infer that they actively prefer task resolution that includes an impartial, random element. For one person to unilaterally take that away from them is a **** move.


Chess is very difficult to use to tell a love story. It's hard to attach names and ambitions to pawns. The Bishops are never plotting a revolt against the King. The King cannot be abusive towards his wife.

Obviously not. She's WAY more powerful than he is.

Friend Computer
2009-12-07, 08:35 PM
Because I have money.
I could've sworn Seto was the other guy... :smalltongue:

Boci
2009-12-07, 09:52 PM
The DM can't cheat by definition.

Whilst I agree a DM can fudge rolls of the dice, what about when the sorcerer we are up against happened to select over his career of adventuring the exact spells to counter our chosen tactics and seems to have pre-buffed himself with a defensive spell for every attack we throw at him? Whether or not thatís cheating on behalf of the DM is debatable, but he is defiantly being a jerk. Is the distinction really that important?


I do remember that the DM is there to bend the rules to make the game more fun, and I don't see why he alone should have that privilege.

Were to you draw the line? Can my PC auto crit ("Hey natural twnty!") you with an attack after you cheat?

jokey665
2009-12-07, 10:12 PM
he is defiantly being a jerk.

I don't see any part of that as being defiant. Maybe he's a jerk, sure, but he's not exactly being defiant about it. (http://www.d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.com/)

AmusingSN
2009-12-07, 10:35 PM
I actually have a solution to this whole problem.

At my table, we have the following house rule:

Cheating is allowed.

Nobody cares in my group, if you feel the need to cheat, for whatever reason, then go ahead. It is specifically allowed.

No hurt feelings involved, we're all there for fun.

As the DM, I don't cheat with dice rolls, but I sometimes cheat in other ways to make the story better. If a player thinks he can do the same, he's welcome to it.

Seriously, nobody cares and we've been playing together happily for many years -- this is one of the best house rules we have. When people stop worrying about what the other players are doing with their dice or character sheets or whatever, they can relax and have fun with the story.

Starbuck_II
2009-12-07, 10:40 PM
I don't remember signing a contract not to stab people in the face. Hmm....

I made you sign it in your sleep. Do'nt worry, a Lawyer was present so it is legally binding.


Because I have money.

Screw the money because I have rules!

Still I think the guy didn't cheat unless he rolled a twenty since that was the only change of the die.

Boci
2009-12-07, 10:43 PM
I don't see any part of that as being defiant. Maybe he's a jerk, sure, but he's not exactly being defiant about it. (http://www.d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.com/)

Technically, in some cases said DM could very well be defiant about being jerks. Gimme a break, its nearly 5 in the morning over here.


I made you sign it in your sleep. Do'nt worry, a Lawyer was present so it is legally binding.

Doesn't the condition of "sleeping" count as diminished capacity?

Starbuck_II
2009-12-07, 10:57 PM
Unconscious people can't say no!
That is D&D one true rule. :smallbiggrin:

Setra
2009-12-07, 11:24 PM
I don't see any part of that as being defiant. Maybe he's a jerk, sure, but he's not exactly being defiant about it. (http://www.d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.com/)
That is the best site ever, are there other versions of it for different words? :smallbiggrin:

---

As far as cheating goes.. I'd just give him this annoyed sigh, repeatedly. Every time he cheats I'd start doing it, just trying to grate on his nerves without actually saying anything.

Also the earlier post stating that he never subtracted the hit dice when the other player cheated also sounds good.

Also, as everyone else stated.. check his dice.

Amphetryon
2009-12-07, 11:37 PM
Ever get 5 cats to walk in the same direction?Pharaoh's Fist, thanks for making me spray coffee all over my keyboard laughing.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-08, 02:32 AM
Were to you draw the line? Can my PC auto crit ("Hey natural twnty!") you with an attack after you cheat?

If you look closely, you'll notice that you've quoted the wrong person.

Rasman
2009-12-08, 02:39 AM
play the good old dice shuffle

at least one person should have EPIC rolls for the night, every night, just not him because "you can't use your own dice in a dice shuffle" and then have an NPC basically mind control the person with his dice and let the wailing begin...he'll have to fight against his own dice and, if they're as rigged as they sound, probably die

Kaun
2009-12-08, 02:47 AM
I actually have a solution to this whole problem.

At my table, we have the following house rule:

Cheating is allowed.

Nobody cares in my group, if you feel the need to cheat, for whatever reason, then go ahead. It is specifically allowed.

No hurt feelings involved, we're all there for fun.

As the DM, I don't cheat with dice rolls, but I sometimes cheat in other ways to make the story better. If a player thinks he can do the same, he's welcome to it.

Seriously, nobody cares and we've been playing together happily for many years -- this is one of the best house rules we have. When people stop worrying about what the other players are doing with their dice or character sheets or whatever, they can relax and have fun with the story.

How does this even work?

and if it does why even bother with dice?

I know a few of my players who would tell me every time they attacked they rolled a nat20 and there damage was 400001920394 because hell if its cool to cheat why do it in small doses.
They would just scribble what ever items/possessions on there chr sheet that they wanted. Give them self what every abilities and stats they liked and...

....be bored after the second session.

Serpentine
2009-12-08, 02:55 AM
Kaun, what was your final decision?

Karu
2009-12-08, 03:15 AM
Keep a copy of his sheet with his bonuses on it, and roll secretly behind the screen for him. Make him feel cheated, even if you're being honest and fair: he has no way to know wether you're lying or not, so... use it to make him realize that the only way to get through this is to trust you, and earn back your trust. If he calls you a cheat, just start rolling in front of everybody, and cleary, just to show you don't give a damn about his success of failure anymore.

I don't have that problem personally, since all of my players use dice I've bought for them as a welcome-to-DnD gift. I, however, had problems with modified character sheets in past years, so at one point I started taking my sheets with me after the game, and bringing it back after, pretending it was just a security in case they lost it. My current group, however, has a zero cheat potential: one is an hardcore gamer who's always whining that hell mode is too easy, so he's never using cheats, another just doesn't give a damn (he rolls his dice betweens two snoozes), and the third, well, he's just around the table because he likes playing DnD with us.

KnightOrc
2009-12-08, 08:03 AM
You could just go the normal route and ask "wow, what are you, twelve?".

Tyndmyr
2009-12-08, 08:45 AM
It is possible for DMs to cheat. Its possible for games to include "cheating" that really isn't. Munchkin, for example.

It's about the social contract...what's acceptable and unacceptable at the table. If you all accept cheating, then it's fine. If you all feel that the DM fudging rolls is cheating, then it is. Better get rid of the DM screen.

D&D is a social game by nature. What really matters is the rules as your group has agreed to play by.

Shazbot79
2009-12-08, 10:14 AM
I had a player like that.

He used clear dice which you couldn't see the numbers on...I could count the number of times he'd actually miss on no fingers.

So I only started recording only about half the damage he'd do each round, and make sure that he was the favorite target of the monsters.

valadil
2009-12-08, 10:16 AM
I have to wonder if the player is doing it just to see if he can. If he's using a double 20 die, he's not interested in being challenged by D&D. Maybe his challenge is in finding ways to cheat without being noticed. If this is the case, I think that taking his dice away or keeping records of his character sheet will only encourage him to try harder. You don't want to be his adversary if this is the case.

dsmiles
2009-12-08, 10:31 AM
It is possible for DMs to cheat. Its possible for games to include "cheating" that really isn't. Munchkin, for example.

It's about the social contract...what's acceptable and unacceptable at the table. If you all accept cheating, then it's fine. If you all feel that the DM fudging rolls is cheating, then it is. Better get rid of the DM screen.

D&D is a social game by nature. What really matters is the rules as your group has agreed to play by.

Really, OP, it all boils down to what's socially acceptable in your gaming group. If as a DM, or the other players agree (or both) you feel you should do something about it, do it.

Kaun
2009-12-09, 12:12 AM
Kaun, what was your final decision?

ehhh... i sort of didnt really need to make one.

One of my other players sat him down outside of the game and told him to pull his head in, he then sent me an email to say sorry.

I will probably still dock him half the exp for that session as a bit of a slap on the wrist and also so the other player who he pissed off feel that he has been punished.

So basicly i just have to hope he has learnt his leason but at the end of the day he will probably be on his best behaviour for the next session or so before he starts sliding back into old habbits.

Rizban
2009-12-28, 07:02 PM
i rember one session i kept a secret record of what he said his dice rolls were. (the actual roll not including mods). I dont have the exact info any more due to this being over a year ago but it was something along the line of, with around 65 d20 rolls in the session: only 10 were 14 or lower and only 4 were under 10.

I've played in a session once where I never once rolled under a 14, and with almost constant combat as a melee fighter over about four hours, there were lots of rolls. At one point in that session, I actually rolled eleven 20s in a row. I wasn't cheating either; you can ask my DM, who saw almost each and every roll. Awesome luck is awesome, but it isn't necessarily cheating to get good rolls.

You really ought to just check dice and be done with it. Anything more than that is just silly. If he cheats every session and won't reform, then curb stomp his character to 1st level or kick him out of the group. Don't do anything in between, because he'll just get upset and/or get sneakier about cheating. Start small with a warning and dice check, then boot him out. Don't be a pansy about it, because habitual cheaters will take advantage of leniency.

FFTGeist
2009-12-29, 05:09 AM
A d20 with more than one 20 couldn't be any worse than just flat out lying to your DM about your roll.

Just call him/her out on it and check his dice a few times.

SethFahad
2009-12-29, 05:36 AM
Geez... tell him to go play some damn MMORG! He is not fit for pencil and paper...

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-29, 06:20 AM
It's about the social contract...what's acceptable and unacceptable at the table. If you all accept cheating, then it's fine. If you all feel that the DM fudging rolls is cheating, then it is. Better get rid of the DM screen.


Even if DM fudging is cheating, the screen is needed. Some rolls are made in secret. For example, when the DM rolls a sense motive check for players when an NPC bluffs. Keeping the screen there makes that more mysterious.

If you want to roll most of the combat in front, fine, but the DM needs privileged information.

Solaris
2009-12-29, 06:56 AM
How does this even work?

and if it does why even bother with dice?

I know a few of my players who would tell me every time they attacked they rolled a nat20 and there damage was 400001920394 because hell if its cool to cheat why do it in small doses.
They would just scribble what ever items/possessions on there chr sheet that they wanted. Give them self what every abilities and stats they liked and...

....be bored after the second session.

Easy. His group isn't trying to 'win', they're just trying to have fun. It doesn't work for everybody.

Cyanic
2009-12-29, 10:41 AM
I would say abolutely nothing and let him bring the matter up to me to ask for forgiveness. As I roll everything behind the DM screen he will realize he needs to make a gentlemen's agreement very soon. :smallbiggrin:



Wierd dice do happen sometimes. One of my friends got a misprinted D4 with different number positions on each side of the dice, resulting in much confusion.

Very true, I had a d8 one time that went 1,1,1,11,5,6,7,8, first roll was the 11, almost got punted for the aforementioned "cheating" before they realized it was a lemon-die.

Tinydwarfman
2009-12-29, 11:33 AM
introduce a new house rule - everyone may cheat, but if they are caught then they are penalized. Call it 'DnD Cheat'. maybe the penalization could be a spectacular crit fail, or lost XP. In fact, me and my friends did this with M:TG before, based off the unhinged card Cheatyface (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74306). was lots of fun.

Jayabalard
2009-12-29, 11:56 AM
So one of my players got caught using a D20 with two 20's on it and no 1 last night. I pulled him up on it and was thinking of cutting his xp in half for the session but i am just wondering what others would do in my situation?Give em the boot. It's up to them to convince you that they've seen the error of their ways and will not be cheating again.


Very true, I had a d8 one time that went 1,1,1,11,5,6,7,8, first roll was the 11, almost got punted for the aforementioned "cheating" before they realized it was a lemon-die.huh, a spinal tap die.


Because dictatorships take people places faster than a committee. Ever get 5 cats to walk in the same direction?
*grabs the scoop from the top of the 5 gallon bucket
*opens the top of the bucket
*open the bag inside the bucket
*scoop the catfood from the bag into each of the bowls.
Done.

That said, having a single game referee makes a lot of sense to me; more than 3 people can't decide where to have dinner, much less run a game. When there's ruling to be made, a single person can make it much faster than a group, and in those sort of situations, speed is of the utmost importance. You need someone to make a quick decision, even if it's wrong.

DabblerWizard
2009-12-29, 12:31 PM
Cheating is an important topic, in life, and in game play, especially when that game has 2+ players.

Unfortunately, really getting into the psychologically relevant details of this topic would lead me into writing an essay, which I'm not looking to do right now.

It should suffice to say that, if rule breaking is considered a problem by a particular group of people (which it generally is), it can be appropriate to deal out consequences for problematic behavior.

What those consequences are will depend on the action's severity, whether it was intentional, how much it hurt other players, etc.

These responses shouldn't be fueled by emotion. That never ends well. Losing a friend over a game, is probably a bad idea.

It's also good to note that DMs and players are on equal footing when it comes to how they treat each other. DMs, following the standard set down by the DMG of various editions, make final decisions in-game and meta-game (concerning mechanics). They are not sole judge and jury on the morality of their players' personal behavior.

Keeping general orderliness while not stepping on people's toes, is a balancing game that DMs play.

Cheating players can be handled by anyone in the group that wants to deal with the situation. Ignoring the behavior, if even one person is bothered by it, would be a less than optimal decision.

Tawmis
2009-12-29, 01:59 PM
I have yet to understand why anyone would even want to cheat during D&D. I mean, you really get nothing out of it. However, dice cheating has the potential to ruin it for other players.

A good friend of mine used to dice cheat (I was another player in the game, not the DM). I had caught him several times, where he would cup his hands "to prevent the dice from rolling off the table" type thing - but was usually to hide his rolls from the DM. He'd roll, the dice ends in the cup of his hands, he'd usually announce a roll of anywhere between a 16 to 20 (this was back in 2nd Edition) - and then scoop up his dice. But sitting next to him, I plainly saw what was an 11 when he announced an 18 (several times, obviously different combination of rolls). It didn't bug me (we were both warrior types), but I did bring it up to the DM (who was our good friend) - who in essence did nothing about it. It was, after all, for fun.

When I have caught people cheating with I DM, I don't do anything overly harsh like cut their XP in half. That could easily ruin their gaming experience. I do, however, put their character through some additional troubles. Their characters will tend to have a lot of bad luck, and thus force the player to roll for different things. For example, if the Swashbuckler was caught cheating on a roll, I causally brush it off. But then when they get into town, after a stormy night, I would make him roll a DEX check or slip in some mud, or when he goes into the tavern, he bumps into someone and knocks over their drink, and now has to deal with it. It's a fun way of saying "God has seen you cheating - and God is punishing your in amusing ways." :)

Sliver
2009-12-29, 02:57 PM
I have yet to understand why anyone would even want to cheat during D&D. I mean, you really get nothing out of it. However, dice cheating has the potential to ruin it for other players.

It is a fact that people that succeed in D&D are more popular then others. It is also compared to others, the DM too. Every time the DM says 'rocks fall, you die' he gains that much more popularity, and so does the player that creates Pun-Pun. The world loves those guys, and you are, anti-cheating people, are just jealous!

Alejandro
2009-12-29, 04:45 PM
Try murdering a few of his friends (preferably not ones that also game with you) and leaving rigged d20s in their eye sockets. He'll come around.

shaddy_24
2009-12-30, 12:19 AM
I don't see a need to roll better in combat. Why does winning automatically make for a better narrative? Failure can result in a story that is just as interesting, or maybe even more-so, than success. Dropping all chance of failure isn't guaraneed to improve the game. It just removes one possible avenue of the story.

randomhero00
2009-12-30, 12:46 AM
I'd use his cheater dice for my monster rolls against him.

It is an odd situation though, since its not like your playing against each other with stakes like poker. My first reaction upon reading the OP was to kick the dude, but after thinking about it its not really hurting anyone. Just annoying that it feels like a betrayal of trust kind of thing. In game consequences should be minimal...personal consequences (like how I'd feel about him) might be more permanent.

FoE
2009-12-30, 01:12 AM
The appropriate response here, of course, is relentless teasing. He's given you the ammunition; all you need to do is load the gun and pull the trigger.

First, the player should be teased about getting caught with such a blatant trick. "Filing numbers off dice, eh? Well, I can see how that's a better use of your Saturday nights than going on dates."

His character sheet should be pored over and he should be questioned about every stat and piece of equipment. For example, you could say, "Remind me, Bill, did you find this +1 sword in the troll's cave, or when the rest of us stepped out to get pizza?"

The DM should occasionally fudge die rolls and lie about the results of certain actions to facilitate further teasing. "I know you rolled a 24 and that was enough for Susan to hit the ghoul, Bill, but I'm taking into account some of your 'special circumstance modifiers.' Incidentally, did you come over tonight with that d20, or did you just pull that dice out of your pocket when it was your turn?"

If another player or the DM rolls a natural 20, then they should say "Whoops, I must have picked up Bill's dice."

Keep up this teasing until: a) he rage quits, in which case you should mock him for being a whiny baby AND a cheater or b) you are satisfied he has learned his lesson. But never let him totally forget it.