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Mystic Muse
2009-12-06, 02:05 AM
Okay. My players aren't going to be reaching her for a while. However I want them to face Tiamat but here's the problem. I want them to LIVE. The party is split like this.

Warlock
Wizard
Rogue
Rogue
Fighter
Ranger.


I imagine they have a slightly higher chance of killing her since there are six of them as compared to 4 but I think the lack of a cleric COULD be a problem. Can anybody help? If you need more info regarding the players I can give it to you.

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-06, 02:12 AM
What type of wizard? I assume you aren't letting them pull any cheese, cuz an army of Solars could do a number on big T.

Mando Knight
2009-12-06, 02:13 AM
No chance. You've got no healer. She deals massive area damage, moves faster than you, and makes saves immediately against most effects. Without at least a secondary healing character, they won't be able to handle her, even with the increased damage output of four Strikers and a Fighter... especially if she decides to focus on the peskiest target first.

Temotei
2009-12-06, 02:23 AM
Are any of them going to multiclass into cleric? As long as they have at least a decent Wisdom score, they can cast some nice spells.

crazedloon
2009-12-06, 02:28 AM
what edition may help us help you :smallwink:

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-06, 02:40 AM
I assume 3.x since cleric was mentioned not leader.

See if the Warlock will go Eldritch Disciple (complete mage), he can make you eldritch blasts into healing blasts with just a dip.

AslanCross
2009-12-06, 02:44 AM
Have them fight an Aspect of Tiamat instead and not the real Tiamat? It's only CR 13 but looks fairly resistant to action economy advantage due to its rotating ability to use its breath weapons. What level are they anyway?

BobVosh
2009-12-06, 02:53 AM
I'm betting it is 4ed. Kyuubi just made a thread about the various high level gods and demons in 4ed. Also I believe (s)he plays 4ed almost exclusively.

Wings of Peace
2009-12-06, 02:57 AM
No chance. You've got no healer. She deals massive area damage, moves faster than you, and makes saves immediately against most effects. Without at least a secondary healing character, they won't be able to handle her, even with the increased damage output of four Strikers and a Fighter... especially if she decides to focus on the peskiest target first.

Because healing is the optimal thing to be doing. :smalltongue:

Wizard: Orb Spells + Metamagic (It'll let him bypass SR)

Fighter: Should dip Lion Totem Barb if he can and enhance PA in any way he can. Valorous weapon enhancement and Frenzied Berserker in conjunction with Shock Trooper can do wonders.

Rogues: Abuse UMD or dip Factotum, take able Learner, and start adding Iaijutsu damage on top of that SA damage

Ranger: Darkstalker maybe...? Or Paladin of the Arcane Order? Not really experienced with Rangers.

Warlock: Three levels are Hellfire Warlock, pick up Strongheart Vest Soulmeld, and learn the Eldritch Glaive Invocation.

Wizard or Warlock: Dipping Mindbender and then taking Mindsight will make for easy detecting methods which are always nice.

Everybody: Some manner of flying. It makes life good. Goku could fly. Goku could also kill Tiamat. Hence, your players should fly too.

Myrmex
2009-12-06, 03:10 AM
Teleport a sword into its heart.

Temotei
2009-12-06, 03:12 AM
Ranger: Darkstalker maybe...? Or Paladin of the Arcane Order? Not really experienced with Rangers.

That's because they stink.

Innis Cabal
2009-12-06, 03:18 AM
Ask her to marry you.

Temotei
2009-12-06, 03:21 AM
Ask her to marry you.

Will you marry me?

*dies a horrible, bacon-smelling death*

BobVosh
2009-12-06, 05:35 AM
Which head, or all of them?

Johel
2009-12-06, 07:37 AM
If the fight happens outside of Tiamat's plane, gate Bahamut in.
It can be done by level 17, with a few "commune" done in advance and the right amount of persuasion.


Calling Creatures

The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If Bahamut isn't there, then Gate whatever epic good-aligned creature you researched the name. Since that creature isn't a unique being, he will have to get through the gate. Once there, providing it has less than twice your caster level, he can fight Tiamat.

I said fight her, not defeat her : that the job of the PCs. The creature is just here to distract Tiamat long enough for the players to put a plan in motion...or run away.

I advise a Paragon Half-Celestial Great Wyrm Gold Dragon, just for the awesome cinematic that will follow.

taltamir
2009-12-06, 07:41 AM
Ask her to marry you.

Will you marry me?

*dies a horrible, bacon-smelling death*

Actually it is:

PC:Will you marry me? *rolls diplomacy* (min maxed of course)
DM: uh... *rolls sense motive*
...
...
Dammit! She says "yes"

Gamerlord
2009-12-06, 07:43 AM
Actually it is:

PC:Will you marry me? *rolls diplomacy* (min maxed of course)
DM: uh... *rolls sense motive*
...
...
Dammit! She says "yes"

EVEN WORSE!
The poor PC.... if you know what I mean....




Actually it is:

PC:Will you marry me? *rolls diplomacy* (Supercharged of course)
DM: uh... *rolls insight*
...
...
Dammit! She says "yes"

Fix'd that for you. :smalltongue:

taltamir
2009-12-06, 08:00 AM
thanks for the correction... speaking of... I never liked the whole "slay a dragon" I'd much rather lay the dragon... (or vampire, or... actually a suprisingly large list of "monsters"; oh god... I sound like a twilight fan! *commits harakiri*)

http://www.vistawallpapers.com/image.php?v=./data/media/196/shrek2_dragon_p2_1280.jpg

http://alexbrie.net/images/89.jpg


EVEN WORSE!
The poor PC.... if you know what I mean....

Onan the librarian barbarian disagrees, tiamat has some fine child bearing hips, will give strong children!

Gamerlord
2009-12-06, 08:13 AM
MY EYES!!!!
IT BURNS!!!

Shrek is a god-awful movie.






Onan the librarian barbarian disagrees, tiamat has some fine child bearing hips, will give strong children!

Sure Onan, strong,five headed, fire breathing children.

taltamir
2009-12-06, 08:16 AM
Sure Onan, strong,five headed, fire breathing children.

Stat those and set them fight some commoners and even some monsters.
5 EXTRA bite attacks per round, and fire breathing, and natural bonuses to attributes... sounds strong to me. :)

5 heads are better than one :P

Gamerlord
2009-12-06, 08:18 AM
Stat those and set them fight some commoners and even some monsters.
5 EXTRA bite attacks per round, and fire breathing, and natural bonuses to attributes... sounds strong to me. :)

5 heads are better than one :P

Have you SEEN the MM 3.5 portrait for half-dragons? EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW .

SilverSheriff
2009-12-06, 08:24 AM
I think you will be needing an Army equiped with Dragonlances and Huma Dragonbane.:smalltongue:

For those not getting it: Tiamat or 'Takhisis, the Dragonqueen' is the Evil Goddess of the Dragonlance series...

Closak
2009-12-06, 08:37 AM
Onan the librarian barbarian disagrees, tiamat has some fine child bearing hips, will give strong children!


Agreed, Tiamat is friggin HOT.

Me: Hello baby, nice ass...

Gamerlord
2009-12-06, 08:42 AM
Agreed, Tiamat is friggin HOT.

Me: Hello baby, nice ass...

?????
You both are Lunatics.

TIAMAT MUST DIIIIIIIIIIIIE!

Closak
2009-12-06, 08:45 AM
If you touch the smexy dragon godess i swear i Concentrated Infinity Blast you to the Far Realms and back.

Gamerlord
2009-12-06, 09:22 AM
If you touch the smexy dragon godess i swear i Concentrated Infinity Blast you to the Far Realms and back.

......

*Goes Pun-pun on Tiamat*

*is still in supercharged Pun-pun form*


So....You feeling lucky?

Closak
2009-12-06, 09:30 AM
Have it your way *Hits Gamerkid with a beam of pure power strong enough to destroy the universe a million times over*

And that my friend, is an Infinity Blast.

Gamerlord
2009-12-06, 09:31 AM
I'm Pun-pun, you just tickled me.

(I think we need to take this to the SMBG)

Sir_Ophiuchus
2009-12-06, 09:32 AM
Teleport a sword into its heart.

Oh gods, I was waiting for this one to come up.

Closak
2009-12-06, 09:35 AM
*Shrugs and hits Gamerkid with the upgraded version*

*The universe and all planes attached to it along with all alternate timelines explode due to being unable to cope with the full power of a fully charged Infinity Blast*

I think i just blew up all of existence...

I think the Overdeities are a bit pissed at us now....:smalleek:

Gamerlord
2009-12-06, 09:40 AM
*Shrugs and hits Gamerkid with the upgraded version*

*The universe and all planes attached to it along with all alternate timelines explode due to being unable to cope with the full power of a fully charged Infinity Blast*

I think i just blew up all of existence...

I think the Overdeities are a bit pissed at us now....:smalleek:

Okay, we're taking this to kiss or kill in the SMBG, see you there, I REFUSE to turn this into another anti-paladin debacle.

Doomboy911
2009-12-06, 09:43 AM
As I always say load them up beforehand have them find a chest full of healing scrolls or potions.This way they won't need a cleric and they can still fight.

Volkov
2009-12-06, 10:20 AM
They will need to get through an army of powerful dragons, pretty much all the lords of hell, Asmodeus included, Kurtlmak and much more. Tiamat has far too many allies in hell to make getting to her easy in the slightest. Attacking her is garunteed to get thousands of chromatic dragons attacking you, as well as untold numbers of devils because she is on good terms with all the important players in the nine hells, she can throw them all at you, not to mention it's raining fire constantly, and there's a huge army of hostile demons in her layer, fighting an army of equally hostile baatezu.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-06, 11:01 AM
I'm betting it is 4ed. Kyuubi just made a thread about the various high level gods and demons in 4ed. Also I believe (s)he plays 4ed almost exclusively.


Sorry. This is correct. I said cleric because I think they have the most healing abilities.

also, I don't play 4th edition exclusively but it's the only game I'm DMing at this time.

Also, I've mentioned my gender several times but I don't care what you call me. just try not too use the same things you guys use with V.:smalltongue:

Mando Knight
2009-12-06, 01:02 PM
Tiamat is going to kill them. Horribly. Unless the Wizard is optimizing for no-save cheese, they're going to have to face getting hit several times each round for high levels of damage. They're also operating at around a half or a third of their actual HP reserve unless they pick out almost every power that lets them spend a healing surge, since none of these characters have Leader as their secondary role.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-06, 01:43 PM
I could put an NPC iin who's a cleric. I was planning on doing that anyways. Would that work?:smallconfused: Or would somebody have to die and choose Cleric as their next class?

NEO|Phyte
2009-12-06, 01:44 PM
Teleport a sword into its heart.

Has to be a Holy sword, though.

Closak
2009-12-06, 05:07 PM
Why would you want to kill Tiamat anyway? :smallconfused:

Mystic Muse
2009-12-06, 05:09 PM
because it's part of the main quest.

Gamerlord
2009-12-06, 05:14 PM
Why would you want to kill Tiamat anyway? :smallconfused:

Because she is a evil, ugly, vile dragon that needs to DIE.

deuxhero
2009-12-06, 05:14 PM
I agree, an Aspect of Tiamat seems better than just her in her full glory.

Volkov
2009-12-06, 05:14 PM
Aren't gods immune to criticals? Which would make the teleport a sword into it's heart trick useless.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-06, 05:15 PM
I don't believe they're immune to criticalsin 4th edition. THey are immune to attacks below 20th level however.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-06, 05:16 PM
Because she is a evil, HAWT, vile dragon that needs to DIE.

fixed it for you.:smalltongue:

deuxhero
2009-12-06, 05:16 PM
I don't believe they're immune to criticalsin 4th edition. THey are immune to attacks below 20th level however.

Oh wait, is the 4th ed? The Ranger just uses the infinate damage loop and you are set as soon as you can hit her consistantly.

Closak
2009-12-06, 05:16 PM
Because she is a evil, ugly, vile dragon that needs to DIE.

She's not ugly :furious:
She's smexy :smallbiggrin:

Evil and vile may be true, but i fail to see how that is a problem.

Go kill an Archdevil or something instead i say.

Volkov
2009-12-06, 05:17 PM
Because she is a evil, ugly, vile dragon that needs to DIE.

Kill her and the entire Draconic, Kobold, and Lizardfolk pantheon will go against you for killing their relative. Not to mention you will piss off pretty much all the powers in the nine hells, and Hextor, and many other cosmic powers. Who will promptly murder your party to death until it is no longer alive.

Gamerlord
2009-12-06, 05:18 PM
She Is Ugly.

Diiiiiiiiiiiiiiie Tiamat!

Mystic Muse
2009-12-06, 05:20 PM
Kill her and the entire Draconic, Kobold, and Lizardfolk pantheon will go against you for killing their relative. Not to mention you will piss off pretty much all the powers in the nine hells, and Hextor, and many other cosmic powers. Who will promptly murder your party to death until it is no longer alive.


I don't think there are any Kobold or Lizardfolk gods in 4th edition, Bahamut is dead and Io is GOING to die.

Closak
2009-12-06, 05:20 PM
She Is Ugly.

Diiiiiiiiiiiiiiie Tiamat!

No she is not *Planeshifts Gamerkid to the negative energy plane*

Volkov
2009-12-06, 05:22 PM
I don't think there are any Kobold or Lizardfolk gods in 4th edition, Bahamut is dead and Io is GOING to die.

Falazure, Garyx, both are evil dragon gods, and both are Tiamat's children.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-06, 05:23 PM
No she is not *Planeshifts Gamerkid to the negative energy plane*

*planeshifts him back here.*

I need him for my webcomic. he's a conspirator.

Now one of you thinks Tiamat is an ugly ***** the other thinks she's Hawt. get over it.

Gamerlord
2009-12-06, 05:23 PM
Falazure, Gratz, both are evil dragon gods, and both are Tiamat's children.

Her children with who? Closak?

Mystic Muse
2009-12-06, 05:24 PM
Falazure, Gratz, both are evil dragon gods, and both are Tiamat's children.

Are they mentioned in the Dracononomicon? I don't remember reading about them. I do remember reading about one of her sons but he's dead.

Volkov
2009-12-06, 05:26 PM
Are they mentioned in the Dracononomicon? I don't remember reading about them. I do remember reading about one of her sons but he's dead.

They are in the Draconomicon.

nekomata2
2009-12-06, 05:30 PM
Falazure, Gratz, both are evil dragon gods, and both are Tiamat's children.

Mentioning Falazure makes me laugh, because I like the good D&D movie, and he gets beat by a 4-6th level character (artifacts were involved, but...pathetic), no threat there.

Doesn't the 4th edition Draconomicon say you have to do one of several things to prevent Tiamat from just leaving at half hp, one of which is kill her consort and make a weapon from it, then hit her with that. If you have an awesome weapon like that, and kill Tiamat, are her kids a problem? Or free xp?

Mystic Muse
2009-12-06, 05:34 PM
you have to cool a newly forged weapon in one of her eggs

I can't find Falazure or Grazt in the Dracononomicon. I know there's Graz'zt in the manual of the planes.

Volkov
2009-12-06, 05:35 PM
Mentioning Falazure makes me laugh, because I like the good D&D movie, and he gets beat by a 4-6th level character (artifacts were involved, but...pathetic), no threat there.

Doesn't the 4th edition Draconomicon say you have to do one of several things to prevent Tiamat from just leaving at half hp, one of which is kill her consort and make a weapon from it, then hit her with that. If you have an awesome weapon like that, and kill Tiamat, are her kids a problem? Or free xp?

The actual falazure is more powerful, rank 8 lesser god or so. He cannot hope to fight against Tiamat and win, but he's a deadly force of his own right.

Volkov
2009-12-06, 05:36 PM
you have to cool a newly forged weapon in one of her eggs

I can't find Falazure or Grazt in the Dracononomicon. I know there's Graz'zt in the manual of the planes.

Sorry, the other one is Garyx, not Grazt. My mistake.

nekomata2
2009-12-06, 06:08 PM
The actual falazure is more powerful, rank 8 lesser god or so. He cannot hope to fight against Tiamat and win, but he's a deadly force of his own right.

So if he can't hope to fight against Tiamat and win, and you just kicked Tiamat's ass, it would seem like he isn't really a threat....

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-06, 06:10 PM
Did they really eliminate Kurtulmalk from the pantheon in 4e? Because if so, I am more than a bit annoyed.

Gamerlord
2009-12-06, 06:13 PM
Did they really eliminate Kurtulmalk from the pantheon in 4e? Because if so, I am more than a bit annoyed.

Yes, they did IIRC.
Just Homebrew him.

sambo.
2009-12-06, 06:18 PM
revert to 1ed when she only had 68HP and could be One-Hit-Killed by a lvl6-7 paladin with a +1 heavy lance.

Ravens_cry
2009-12-06, 06:31 PM
Step 1:
Glue many adamantine (or harder) decanters of endless water around an immoveable rod with D&D superglue.
Step 2: Get eaten
Step 3: activate the rod and decanters.
Step 4: (optional) get out
Step 5, pepper with arrows, long range spells and boulders from above from a distance. Rince, lather, repeat.
Xiamat gets 300 pounds of water X n, with n been the number of decanters. She can only move 5 feet each round at most while the rods works, and she cant throw it up, and when the water in her belly reaches her max load, she can't move period, or only 5 feet, while the mother of dragons gets the mother of belly aches as she drags her scaled hiney along. Without her dex bonus I might add, which should make the rogues happy.
Some go for the soft under belly, I go for the soft inner belly.

Mad Wizard
2009-12-06, 07:14 PM
One time I sicced Tiamat on a Force Dragon PC in my epic-level campaign who had just used a Phane that the party captured (don't ask how) to age himself into awesomeness. He proceeded to open a Gate to the infinite ocean of holy water mentioned in the description of the Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia in the DMG, disintegrating Tiamat in a giant geyser of holy water.

From then on, I listed "There is no infinite ocean of holy water" in my houserules.

Sir_Ophiuchus
2009-12-06, 07:36 PM
One time I sicced Tiamat on a Force Dragon PC in my epic-level campaign who had just used a Phane that the party captured (don't ask how) to age himself into awesomeness. He proceeded to open a Gate to the infinite ocean of holy water mentioned in the description of the Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia in the DMG, disintegrating Tiamat in a giant geyser of holy water.

From then on, I listed "There is no infinite ocean of holy water" in my houserules.

Wow, way to weaken Celestia's defences before the inevitable invasion by the devils. Hope he was ready for a bunch of solars to show up and conscript him to help man the barricades.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-06, 07:45 PM
Given that Maglubiyet reappeared as a (god) who is currently an Exarch of Bane, I'd imagine that Kurtulmak is likely to be an exarch himself. Possibly of Tiamat, but who knows?

deuxhero
2009-12-06, 07:51 PM
Wow, way to weaken Celestia's defences before the inevitable invasion by the devils. Hope he was ready for a bunch of solars to show up and conscript him to help man the barricades.

Uh "Infinite"?

Ladorak
2009-12-06, 08:11 PM
Wow, way to weaken Celestia's defences before the inevitable invasion by the devils. Hope he was ready for a bunch of solars to show up and conscript him to help man the barricades.

A) Infinite ocean
B) You'd think those Solars would at least be a little grateful for the slaying of Tiamet... Lousy self-rightous angels...

Mystic Muse
2009-12-06, 08:31 PM
OKAY. This is getting off topic. So to get back on topic.

How do my players kill Tiamat without infinite damage cheese. Ignoring for a minute that they need a leader to have a chance what does each person need to do? any specific powers/feats they need to take?

DragonBaneDM
2009-12-06, 08:55 PM
Hi. I play 4e too. Also, my big bad evil girl is Tiamat.

SO! Let's put our heads together!

Here's what you should do, in my opinion:

1. Modify her encounter in the Draconicom. It's too good. Ditch the red dragon, and make sure there are no other elites or solos in the encounter.

2. Tell me more about your party. What level are you guys, and what are each of their individual builds?

3. Have Bahamut weaken her some. In your campaign, you seem to have switched these... Io is dead, killed by Erek-Hus, the King of Terror during the war between the gods and primordials. And hopefully Bahamut is still around before your Tiamat fight. You could ditch a bunch of hit points, OR have a levelled down version of Big T ready to roll. If Bahamut is dead, Moradin, Ioun, Corellon, or hell, the Raven Queen could all suffice as savior deities for your party, bent on avenging their eon-long ally's death.

So, about your party... Share with me. What is their story?

Volkov
2009-12-06, 08:55 PM
Hi. I play 4e too. Also, my big bad evil girl is Tiamat.

SO! Let's put our heads together!

Here's what you should do, in my opinion:

1. Modify her encounter in the Draconicom. It's too good. Ditch the red dragon, and make sure there are no other elites or solos in the encounter.
2. Tell me more about your party. What level are you guys, and what are each of their individual builds?
3. Have Bahamut weaken her soon. In your campaign, you seem to have switched these... Io is dead. And hopefully Bahamut is still around before your Tiamat fight. You could ditch a bunch of hit points, OR have a levelled down version of Big T ready to roll. If Bahamut is dead, Moradin, Ioun, Corellon, or hell, the Raven Queen could all suffice as savior deities for your party, bent on avenging their eon-long ally's death.

So, about your party... Share with me. What is their story?
Then all the powers of hell come after you and murder you in your sleep.

DragonBaneDM
2009-12-06, 08:57 PM
True. But Asmodeus has more important targets then me, sir.

Mando Knight
2009-12-06, 09:00 PM
How do my players kill Tiamat without infinite damage cheese. Ignoring for a minute that they need a leader to have a chance what does each person need to do? any specific powers/feats they need to take?

Players need to focus on either long-range powers and splitting up, or on close-up powers and buffing their defenses and resistances to Celestia and back. One or the other isn't going to work. She flies fast and can disable multiple characters at once. You need immunity or increased saves against dominate, blind, and ongoing damage; resistance to fire, cold, lightning, poison, and acid damage; immunity or being able to move with stun; and high damage, high-accuracy combatants.

To get a 50% chance to hit her defenses, they'll need the following attack bonuses:
+40 vs AC or Fort, +38 vs Will, +37 vs Reflex.

To get a 25% chance of getting most of her attacks to miss, they'll need the following defenses:
46 AC (44 vs White Dragon bite or Claw attack), 44 Reflex, 44 Fortitude, 44 Will (48 Will against Tail Sting's secondary attack).


To help defeat her, impose no-save, no-hit penalties on her. You don't have enough no-save, no-hit bonuses because you don't have a leader. Daze and Stun have little effect on her. If she can make a save against an effect, she rolls against it each activation and as soon as the effect is initially imposed, each time getting the +5 bonus.

To beat her passive perception, you need a Stealth check of 40, and she has plenty of Minor actions to try to make perception checks against that anyway.


The Red Dragon in her encounter barely matters. He's there mostly for cleanup.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-06, 09:05 PM
Hi. I play 4e too. Also, my big bad evil girl is Tiamat.

SO! Let's put our heads together!

Here's what you should do, in my opinion:

1. Modify her encounter in the Draconicom. It's too good. Ditch the red dragon, and make sure there are no other elites or solos in the encounter.

2. Tell me more about your party. What level are you guys, and what are each of their individual builds?

3. Have Bahamut weaken her some. In your campaign, you seem to have switched these... Io is dead, killed by Erek-Hus, the King of Terror during the war between the gods and primordials. And hopefully Bahamut is still around before your Tiamat fight. You could ditch a bunch of hit points, OR have a levelled down version of Big T ready to roll. If Bahamut is dead, Moradin, Ioun, Corellon, or hell, the Raven Queen could all suffice as savior deities for your party, bent on avenging their eon-long ally's death.

So, about your party... Share with me. What is their story?

yeah, I change the story of 4th edition according to my whims.:smallamused: for example, Io is female and evil, and most of the gods/demon lords/lords of hell are dead. Also Io is the one who killed Bahamut. Tiamat wanted to be the one to do that however so now she's going to kill Io who is tiamat's mother, purely as an excuse to use "room of angels" in my campaign.:smallamused: Bahamut's Father was Ancalagon the black. (okay not really. Haven't decided on bahamut's origins yet)

they're level 7 right now. I'm not too worried about them encountering her any time soon.

The warlock is probably the one who thinks best. He's an undead Tiefling warlock with the Fey pact, who has a homebrewed Necromancy ability and he wants to Usurp Vecna.

Both Rogues don't take the game very seriously. They're dragonborn rogues and I believe both have acid breath. I don't know what to say about them. They both are brutal scoundrels and have the backstabber feat.
The ranger is halfway between serious and joking. Joking when he feels like it and serious when he needs to be. He's a hobgoblin and uses Ranged just as much as melee.
The warrior is kind of just......there. I don't really know how to describe his playstyle or anything.
The wizard I'm not sure how to describe. We haven't played in a while so I kind of forget his playstyle.

I'll get more details tomorrow and even PM you about them. I have their character sheets but pretty soon I won't have access to this room.

DragonBaneDM
2009-12-06, 09:07 PM
Looking at Tiamat's stats now:

Oh. And I REALLY love lists. Hahaha!

1. They're right about the aura. Big big big damage. Since they lack a leader, maybe have a small army of Bahamut's old clerics healing them. You could symbolize this by a steady regen on each player.

2. That resistance sucks. Wizard and Warlock should have items that bypass it, or abilities.

3. Domination screws players. If you really want them to have a chance, don't spam Tail Sting. It's mean.

4. Chromatic Breath's recharge is balanced enough that it should be your main goal with Tiamat. Vary the head's movements, IN A PATTERN. That way your players know when it's coming, and if they have stuff that changes resistances on the fly it's gonna help big time.

5. Quintuple actions... This is what makes her amazing. Immediate Reaction resets are GREAT. If you wanna gimp her a bit, look towards taking this away.

6. Give them stuff that daze or stun. Quintuple Brain nullifies it, yes, but it buys them a round without a Chromatic Blast and a head that does a bunch of damage.

7. Tell them to pump their Reflex throught the roof, this is Tiamat's most targetted NAD.

I hope this helps!

DragonBaneDM
2009-12-06, 09:10 PM
The Red Dragon in her encounter barely matters. He's there mostly for cleanup.

Inferno Aura hurts. And his party sounds easily distracted. I could see those two rogues thinking that taking him out first is the best thing in the world.

EDIT: It was then that DragonBaneDM realized he was arguing with Mando Knight, who had graciously helped him out in EVERY thread he's ever made and is one of the most highly respected posters in the Giant. My apologies, sir.

Mando Knight
2009-12-06, 09:27 PM
Oh, the Dragon's still a threat, he just likes to chill out where he gets obliterated by Tiamat's massive Chromatic Breath, and occasionally seek out a target that's separated from the others. His other big uses are to prevent the players from resting if they do manage to break Tiamat, or to soften them up for her beforehand.

Volkov
2009-12-06, 09:33 PM
True. But Asmodeus has more important targets then me, sir.

The Archdukes of hell really like tiamat, and killing her would really upset the order of hell. It would also seriously piss off Bel, who is one of Tiamat's greatest allies. Not to mention, all Chromatic dragons and kobolds would single you out, for you murdered their queen.

vecna would then absorb Tiamat's power through an artifact, then use it to conquer the multiverse. In the end, all results lead to total victory for vecna in the long run.

chiasaur11
2009-12-06, 09:50 PM
The Archdukes of hell really like tiamat, and killing her would really upset the order of hell. It would also seriously piss off Bel, who is one of Tiamat's greatest allies. Not to mention, all Chromatic dragons and kobolds would single you out, for you murdered their queen.

vecna would then absorb Tiamat's power through an artifact, then use it to conquer the multiverse. In the end, all results lead to total victory for vecna in the long run.

Until you notice the fact the plans utterly fail to account for William Lumpkin, postman.

This mistake will cause of the plans to fail horribly, and no-one will know why.

Ladorak
2009-12-06, 10:06 PM
The Archdukes of hell really like tiamat

The Archdukes don't really like anyone


killing her would really upset the order of hell.

To the benifit of 7 of the 9 Archdukes


It would also seriously piss off Bel

Bel is one of the Archdukes, you can't list him seperately like this just to make your arguement longer


All Chromatic dragons and kobolds would single you out, for you murdered their queen.

They would have to find out who did it first. If I took out big mamma T I'd make sure that didn't happen. However, that said; I just took out Tiamet, dragons are solitary creatures and Kobolds are well... Kobolds (Minus Pun Pun of course:smallsigh:). This isn't much of a threat, more a constant annoyance


Vecna would then absorb Tiamat's power through an artifact, then use it to conquer the multiverse. In the end, all results lead to total victory for vecna in the long run.

Three guess who your god of choice is...

Volkov
2009-12-06, 10:12 PM
The Archdukes don't really like anyone



To the benifit of 7 of the 9 Archdukes



Bel is one of the Archdukes, you can't list him seperately like this just to make your arguement longer



They would have to find out first. If I took out big mamma T I'm make sure that didn't happen. However, that said; I just took out Tiamet, dragons are solitary creatures and Kobolds are well... Kobolds (Minus Pun Pun of course:smallsigh:)



Three guess who your god of choice is...
A red dragon can easily track down someone who stole a single copper piece from it's hoard. They'd find you. And murder you, and resurrect you, and murder you again, and resurrect you again, and murder you again and again and again and again, then the chromatic dragons would grow bored and then simply either fade into extinction out of sheer depression or B. become incredibly angry and take their rage out on the humanoid races.

nekomata2
2009-12-06, 10:31 PM
Luckily forced resurrection is, you know, not doable...

chiasaur11
2009-12-06, 10:42 PM
If I took out big mamma T I'd make sure that didn't happen. However, that said; I just took out Tiamet, dragons are solitary creatures and Kobolds are well... Kobolds (Minus Pun Pun of course:smallsigh:).




And Deekin.

Deekin's pretty handy in a fight from what I've seen.

(Handily, though, both Pun-Pun and Deekin are goodish sorts who wouldn't try to avenge Tiamat. So, yeah. Kobolds are a non-issue.)

Beelzebub1111
2009-12-06, 10:53 PM
You should hire out Venger! He has a lot of experience fighting Tiamat.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-06, 10:55 PM
You should hire out Venger! He has a lot of experience fighting Tiamat.

Lot of experience having his ass handed to him by Tiamat, you mean.

Ladorak
2009-12-06, 10:57 PM
Lol, I'm not sure if flying/running off while shooting at her counts as 'fighting,' but then he always survives, and that's a useful trick all in it's own

Edit: Mind Flayer Ninjaed

Beelzebub1111
2009-12-06, 11:00 PM
Lot of experience having his ass handed to him by Tiamat, you mean.
He once got all the kid's weapons and stood a chance...for like ten minutes. But if he HELD ON to the weapons, he would have won!

He's, like, a half fiend archmage, too. Not a bad thing to have around.

Ladorak
2009-12-06, 11:09 PM
And he would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for those meddling...

No wait, sorry. Hey, the early 90s were a long time ago!

Mystic Muse
2009-12-07, 12:22 AM
You forget the part where the one player is going to KILL Vecna.


also the lords of the nine and a few evil gods are all that's left and their alliance is crumbling from within at this point. They don't care too much for each other.

Volkov
2009-12-07, 07:48 AM
You forget the part where the one player is going to KILL Vecna.


also the lords of the nine and a few evil gods are all that's left and their alliance is crumbling from within at this point. They don't care too much for each other.

vecna can't die. Other people from other editions tried. He either comes back later, completely unphased, or the attempt to kill him out right fails. In the last module of 2e, his meddlings when he had the power of a greater god after stealing Iuz's power are implied to have forced a edition change across the multiverse to 3e. vecna is THAT scary.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-07, 11:54 AM
vecna can't die. Other people from other editions tried. He either comes back later, completely unphased, or the attempt to kill him out right fails. In the last module of 2e, his meddlings when he had the power of a greater god after stealing Iuz's power are implied to have forced a edition change across the multiverse to 3e. vecna is THAT scary.

And he's going to die. Deal with it.

If it has stats you can kill it.

Okay. Give me a bit. I'll be gone in about 30 minutes but I'll try and fill in as many character sheets as I can on Myth weavers before then.

nekomata2
2009-12-07, 12:25 PM
vecna can't die. Other people from other editions tried. He either comes back later, completely unphased, or the attempt to kill him out right fails. In the last module of 2e, his meddlings when he had the power of a greater god after stealing Iuz's power are implied to have forced a edition change across the multiverse to 3e. vecna is THAT scary.

So what you're saying is, killing Vecna in 4th edition will force an immediate transfer to that unholy 5th edition? MADNESS!!! (And then we'll kill him there...)

Quietus
2009-12-07, 12:36 PM
So what you're saying is, killing Vecna in 4th edition will force an immediate transfer to that unholy 5th edition? MADNESS!!! (And then we'll kill him there...)

Worst part is that... they're bringing back THAC0...

Mystic Muse
2009-12-07, 01:39 PM
Worst part is that... they're bringing back THAC0...

Hey THAC0 is AWESOME.

oh wait. are we not talking about the goblin?:smalltongue:

Gamerlord
2009-12-07, 02:22 PM
"The Archdukes don't really like anyone"

Then where do all those half-fiends come from :smalltongue: ?

Sir Homeslice
2009-12-07, 02:30 PM
"The Archdukes don't really like anyone"

Then where do all those half-fiends come from :smalltongue: ?

Son, have you never heard of hatesex?

dsmiles
2009-12-07, 02:31 PM
Why would anyone want to kill Tiamat? Some other mega-evil dragon will just rise up and take her place (or in my campaign world, the one who deals the death blow is forced to take her place, alignment and all).

EDIT: Yes, technically, if it has stats, you can kill it, but should you? If you kill all the evil deities, the world will become unbalanced, and....OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!!!!!!!!

BobVosh
2009-12-07, 02:36 PM
vecna can't die. Other people from other editions tried. He either comes back later, completely unphased, or the attempt to kill him out right fails. In the last module of 2e, his meddlings when he had the power of a greater god after stealing Iuz's power are implied to have forced a edition change across the multiverse to 3e. vecna is THAT scary.

Even the Lady of Pain didn't completely destroy Vecna. LoP!


So what you're saying is, killing Vecna in 4th edition will force an immediate transfer to that unholy 5th edition? MADNESS!!! (And then we'll kill him there...)

Quick, someone kill Vecna!

Gamerlord
2009-12-07, 03:00 PM
Son, have you never heard of hatesex?

Please shut up. My brain needs bleach now.

Anyway, I wonder what would happen if all the gods died, what would a stereotypical D&D world be like?

Wings of Peace
2009-12-07, 03:04 PM
Yes, technically, if it has stats, you can kill it, but should you? If you kill all the evil deities, the world will become unbalanced, and....OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never got that about fantasy rpgs. "Yeah guys, you COULD kill the god of rape, murder, evil, and kitten kicking but that would throw things out of balance and that would be wrong!"

Gamerlord
2009-12-07, 03:06 PM
I never got that about fantasy rpgs. "Yeah guys, you COULD kill the god of rape, murder, evil, and kitten kicking but that would throw things out of balance and that would be wrong!"

That would let the good gods gain power, power breeds evil, anyone know a alignment called "Lawful evil?"

Wings of Peace
2009-12-07, 03:09 PM
That would let the good gods gain power, power breeds evil, anyone know a alignment called "Lawful evil?"

But... they're gods of good. They've got a couple millenia of credibility on their side.

dsmiles
2009-12-07, 03:09 PM
ninja'd...I was going to bring up the Lawful Stupid empire of Paladins.

Gamerlord
2009-12-07, 03:13 PM
But... they're gods of good. They've got a couple millenia of credibility on their side.

Yeah, but have they achieved ultimate power over the planarverse?

No, they have been forced to share it with the evil gods, once they are in control, they start brutal inquisitions, mass executions, and soon become a dictatorship.

Wings of Peace
2009-12-07, 03:14 PM
Yeah, but have they achieved ultimate power over the planarverse?

No, they have been forced to share it with the evil gods, once they are in control, they start brutal inquisitions, mass executions, and soon become a dictatorship.

Assuming that they operate in a similar manner to humans.

Mando Knight
2009-12-07, 03:15 PM
That would let the good gods gain power, power breeds evil, anyone know a alignment called "Lawful evil?"

Power doesn't breed evil. Corruption of power breeds evil. After all, if power in and of itself is the corrosive agent, there wouldn't be any good gods (or primordials, or Ancient Ones, or whatever) at all.

Gamerlord
2009-12-07, 03:16 PM
Assuming that they operate in a similar manner to humans.

We know at least one or two of the good gods was once a mortal.

Wings of Peace
2009-12-07, 03:19 PM
We know at least one or two of the good gods was once a mortal.

It's still making the assumption that their godhood has not changed them. If anything I would argue that if the sudden shift of power from mortality into godhood did not cause them to decline down an alignment axis the argument power itself is corrupting becomes null.

Ladorak
2009-12-07, 03:58 PM
But they're literally immortal embodiments of Law and Good! They can't 'turn evil' without unmaking themselves

dsmiles
2009-12-07, 04:03 PM
@WoP: Statistically, there is not a large gap between uber-mortal and deity. Not a large power gain. Ultimate power over the cosmos because there are no gods of evil? Huge power gain. I would have to say that the Lawful Stupid empire theory would win. Let's try a little logic (as taught in college-level mathematics and philosophy). The gods of good say:

"Anyone who is not my follower is not good. Anyone who is not good is evil."

Logically, the only conclusion each god can draw from these statements is:

"Anyone who is not my follower is evil."

Thus, the followers of these so-called "good" deities begins to root out evil wherever they see it. You end up with the Lawful Good Empire (i.e., The Children of Light in the Wheel of Time series). Everyone who doesn't believe as they do must be purged. Exterminatus, anyone?

@^: The gods don't turn evil, their followers do evil deeds in the name of good, thus becoming evil. Eventually, one of them will rise up and become the new god of evil, and you're right back where you started. Balance restored.

Gamerlord
2009-12-07, 04:05 PM
But they're literally immortal embodiments of Law and Good! They can't 'turn evil' without unmaking themselves

A angel is an embodiment, a god isn't.

absolmorph
2009-12-07, 04:10 PM
@WoP: Statistically, there is not a large gap between uber-mortal and deity. Not a large power gain. Ultimate power over the cosmos because there are no gods of evil? Huge power gain. I would have to say that the Lawful Stupid empire theory would win. Let's try a little logic (as taught in college-level mathematics and philosophy). The gods of good say:

"Anyone who is not my follower is not good. Anyone who is not good is evil."

Logically, the only conclusion each god can draw from these statements is:

"Anyone who is not my follower is evil."

Thus, the followers of these so-called "good" deities begins to root out evil wherever they see it. You end up with the Lawful Good Empire (i.e., The Children of Light in the Wheel of Time series). Everyone who doesn't believe as they do must be purged. Exterminatus, anyone?

@^: The gods don't turn evil, their followers do evil deeds in the name of good, thus becoming evil. Eventually, one of them will rise up and become the new god of evil, and you're right back where you started. Balance restored.
Oh, God. I'm never killing a god. Ever.
The Children of Light would be TERRIFYING to deal with.

Mando Knight
2009-12-07, 04:14 PM
@WoP: Statistically, there is not a large gap between uber-mortal and deity. Not a large power gain. Ultimate power over the cosmos because there are no gods of evil? Huge power gain. I would have to say that the Lawful Stupid empire theory would win. Let's try a little logic (as taught in college-level mathematics and philosophy). The gods of good say:

"Anyone who is not my follower is not good. Anyone who is not good is evil."

Logically, the only conclusion each god can draw from these statements is:

"Anyone who is not my follower is evil."

Thus, the followers of these so-called "good" deities begins to root out evil wherever they see it. You end up with the Lawful Good Empire (i.e., The Children of Light in the Wheel of Time series). Everyone who doesn't believe as they do must be purged. Exterminatus, anyone?

@^: The gods don't turn evil, their followers do evil deeds in the name of good, thus becoming evil. Eventually, one of them will rise up and become the new god of evil, and you're right back where you started. Balance restored.

That's a corruption of their power. The power itself doesn't corrupt, and isn't corrupt, but a being that's less than an avatar of pure good is mentally capable of corrupting his power, and any desire to continue down that path of corruption is Evil.

However, if the gods of Good are correct when they say that only they and their followers are Good, then it is not Evil for them to impose their order until the statement becomes false (that is, when they commit Evil for any reason), so long as the imposition of order itself is not Evil. If they are wrong, then they are corrupt, and their corruption tied with their pursuit of dominance will cause them to commit and become Evil.

dsmiles
2009-12-07, 04:20 PM
Human nature being what it is, their followers will always find a fault in a nieghbor, or whomever, that they will expoit for personal gain. Their statements will never become false. Eventually they'll either have to let someone become the god of evil, or have no followers left except the one guy that killed the second to last guy because he (insert absurd reason for being evil here).

Ladorak
2009-12-07, 04:21 PM
Or have no followers left except the one guy that killed the second to last guy because he (insert absurd reason for being evil here).

... Made that arguement?

Mando Knight
2009-12-07, 04:29 PM
Human nature being what it is, their followers will always find a fault in a nieghbor, or whomever, that they will expoit for personal gain. Their statements will never become false. Eventually they'll either have to let someone become the god of evil, or have no followers left except the one guy that killed the second to last guy because he (insert absurd reason for being evil here).

Is that not because humans are corrupt? If a god was truly a god of pure good, then that god would not have that flaw. (Most D&D deities aren't Supreme Paragons Of Total Good, though, so the point is true)

Wings of Peace
2009-12-07, 06:36 PM
@WoP: Statistically, there is not a large gap between uber-mortal and deity.

I beg to differ. There is ALOT that can be done with Divine Ranks and Portfolios.


The gods of good say:

"Anyone who is not my follower is not good. Anyone who is not good is evil."

Logically, the only conclusion each god can draw from these statements is:

"Anyone who is not my follower is evil."

Except that this scenario is a what if that ignores the fact that many deities or even simply divine casters have many tasty ways of sensing your alignment especially if it's a matter of their Portfolio. A deity of an alignment would be more than capable of realizing they were lying to themselves if they said such a thing. There is no divine mandate that says "Anyone who does not follow me is wrong and must die" if there were the deities of pacifism would be very hypocritical.


Human nature being what it is, their followers will always find a fault in a nieghbor, or whomever, that they will expoit for personal gain. Their statements will never become false. Eventually they'll either have to let someone become the god of evil, or have no followers left except the one guy that killed the second to last guy because he (insert absurd reason for being evil here).

Or they might just stop granting their followers blessings as they are they are no longer carrying out the deities intentions. The deities are under no compulsion to aid followers who are getting it wrong.

taltamir
2009-12-07, 07:24 PM
Have you SEEN the MM 3.5 portrait for half-dragons? EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW .

Half dragon, aka, the kids of dragon + human. But the True Dragon parent isn't ugly. besides, they often have alternate shape, so they look like whatever you want them to... forget cosplay, she can shapeshift :)


Hey THAC0 is AWESOME.

oh wait. are we not talking about the goblin?:smalltongue:

awesome Goblins comic reference :P


And Deekin.

Deekin's pretty handy in a fight from what I've seen.

(Handily, though, both Pun-Pun and Deekin are goodish sorts who wouldn't try to avenge Tiamat. So, yeah. Kobolds are a non-issue.)

I love deekin! I played with him despite the utterly crippling XP penalties in NWN1 of having henchpersons or summons.

Gamerlord
2009-12-07, 07:29 PM
Half dragon, aka, the kids of dragon + human. But the True Dragon parent isn't ugly. besides, they often have alternate shape, so they look like whatever you want them to... forget cosplay, she can shapeshift :)





I don't care, Tiamat is an ugly B**** That needs to be burnt at the stake.

Wings of Peace
2009-12-07, 07:30 PM
I love deekin! I played with him despite the utterly crippling XP penalties in NWN1 of having henchpersons or summons.

*High Five!*

Ladorak
2009-12-07, 07:31 PM
I don't care, Tiamat is an ugly B****

She. Can. Shapeshift. Into. ANYTHING or ANYONE

Gamerlord
2009-12-07, 07:31 PM
*High Five!*

Deekin FTW.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-07, 07:37 PM
I don't care, Tiamat is an ugly B**** That needs to be burnt at the stake.

Isn't Tiamat immune to fire? or at least highly resistant?

Gamerlord
2009-12-07, 07:39 PM
Isn't Tiamat immune to fire? or at least highly resistant?

Then burn her in holy energy.


She. Can. Shapeshift. Into. ANYTHING or ANYONE

Unlike all my fellow males, I'm not the least bit interested in romance, it is a utter waste of time.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-07, 07:39 PM
Isn't Tiamat immune to fire? or at least highly resistant?

She's certainly immune to being tied to a little wooden post, at any rate. :smallwink:

Gamerlord
2009-12-07, 07:41 PM
She's certainly immune to being tied to a little wooden post, at any rate. :smallwink:

I'll make it big then.

taltamir
2009-12-07, 07:42 PM
She. Can. Shapeshift. Into. ANYTHING or ANYONE

exactly, who cares if the kids are ugly :)
This is a good thing actually, less worry about "bad boys" trying to get to your daughters.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-07, 07:43 PM
She. Can. Shapeshift. Into. ANYTHING or ANYONE

And then Gamerkid kills her anyway.

also, if this is the 3.5 version she doesn't need to. She's smexy enough as a dragon.:smalltongue:

Ladorak
2009-12-07, 07:44 PM
exactly, who cares if the kids are ugly :)
This is a good thing actually, less worry about "bad boys" trying to get to your daughters.

Lol, too true. It's not the type of neighbourhood I'd wanna raise my kids in tho. I'd have to insist she move to a nicer area.

Trodon
2009-12-07, 07:45 PM
I'm a little late for this sorry.


Because she is a evil, ugly, vile dragon that needs to DIE.

EVERYONE WHO WANT'S TO SLAY MY QUEEN WILL PERISH!!! *Implosion*

Gamerlord
2009-12-07, 07:46 PM
EVERYONE WHO WANT'S TO SLAY MY QUEEN WILL PERISH!!! *Implosion*


.......


Why do you guys follow her so fanatically? Testosterone issues?

I constantly wonder why my fellow males are so tempted by a friggin evil dragon queen.

Trodon
2009-12-07, 07:49 PM
.......


Why do you guys follow her so fanatically? Testosterone issues?

No, she is my queen and I will rule beside her once she takes over the world. *Epic Disintegrate*

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-07, 07:49 PM
.......


Why do you guys follow her so fanatically? Testosterone issues?

Ha, you should try questioning the Lady of Pain. THAT gets a response, let me tell you. :smallwink:


I like Tiamat.

Ladorak
2009-12-07, 07:49 PM
.......


Why do you guys follow her so fanatically? Testosterone issues?

Lol, you wanna slay her, they wanna lay her. Who's to say who's got the real problem here?

Volkov
2009-12-07, 07:56 PM
But... they're gods of good. They've got a couple millenia of credibility on their side.

If you kill the evil gods. The Rilmani will kill that evil god's polar opposite. Because the manifestations of stupid neutrality would kill anything, even a basket of human babies, puppies, and kittens if it helped their so called "balance."

Except the General of Gehenna they can't kill him, that bastard is so good at manipulating things that he has managed to manipulate TSR and then WOTC into never giving him stats once in all four editions, truly an accomplishment for Neutral Evil incarnate.

taltamir
2009-12-07, 07:57 PM
And then Gamerkid kills her anyway.

also, if this is the 3.5 version she doesn't need to. She's smexy enough as a dragon.:smalltongue:

all too true.. mmm sexy dragons

chiasaur11
2009-12-07, 08:35 PM
If you kill the evil gods. The Rilmani will kill that evil god's polar opposite. Because the manifestations of stupid neutrality would kill anything, even a basket of human babies, puppies, and kittens if it helped their so called "balance."

Except the General of Gehenna they can't kill him, that bastard is so good at manipulating things that he has managed to manipulate TSR and then WOTC into never giving him stats once in all four editions, truly an accomplishment for Neutral Evil incarnate.

So, kill the Neutrals first. Bit evil, but, you know, it gets the obligatory evil that comes with power out of the way first.

I'm with Mando. "Balance" is the most moronic concept in DnD cosmology.

Volkov
2009-12-07, 08:36 PM
So, kill the Neutrals first. Bit evil, but, you know, it gets the obligatory evil that comes with power out of the way first.

I'm with Mando. "Balance" is the most moronic concept in DnD cosmology.

I'm pretty sure the Rilmani are smart enough to stay near the Spire where you can't touch them with magic. But where they can wreck you with their physical abilities. I'm not a particular fan of the Rilmani, but if they were bad at their jobs of being arbiters of a stupid and arbitrary balance, then they'd be dead by now.

chiasaur11
2009-12-07, 08:38 PM
I'm pretty sure the Rilmani are smart enough to stay near the Spire where you can't touch them with magic. But where they can wreck you with their physical abilities. I'm not a particular fan of the Rilmani, but if they were bad at their jobs of being arbiters of a stupid and arbitrary balance, then they'd be dead by now.

Three words.

Tome.

Of.

Battle.

Kung fu is go.

Volkov
2009-12-07, 08:40 PM
Three words.

Tome.

Of.

Battle.

Kung fu is go.

Then you get full sneak attacked by four of those copper Rilmani. Who's exact names escapes me at the moment. And if the Rilmani possess a supreme ruler like the other outsiders, then he's really damned good at hiding.

Karoht
2009-12-07, 08:46 PM
Gather the assistance of several other Dragons and such. Gather Demon allies who are near to her, the kind that can help get the party there in the first place. This could be the point of some of the adventuring is to gather the allies necessary. Make it very obvious to the denizens of the world that the party is gathering forces necessary to take Tiamat down. Perhaps she gets cocky, leaves her realm and fights somewhere signifigantly less advantageous.
Perhaps hire a dedicated team of dragon hunters a la Dragonheart? Mooks using dragon specific tactics to busy up at least one of her heads, possibly more than one. Think massive grappling hooks and bizaare siege impliments designed specifically for fighting dragons.
Maybe toss in some lore involving the effects of dragons on certain regions of the world, how each place feels about dragons in general and how willing or unwilling they are to go up against Tiamat.

Also, do you plan on slaying her, or just defeating here? Beating her into submission/humiliation for a specific goal wouldn't be too bad an idea, and could still be an epic encounter.
IE-Party manages to fight her with a signifigant enough force. After taking a beating for a while, she agrees to parlay with them, as she is either impressed by their efforts, or is actually in danger of losing her life. The party negociates a settlement of some sort, such as dragons from nation X, Y, and Z all leave those lands immediately.

OOOH! Crazy idea time!
Throw a vial of DnD superglue into each of her mouths. That should stop the breath weapons for a little while, and make the bite attacks pretty useless. She could still slam with her heads though.

Volkov
2009-12-07, 08:50 PM
Gather the assistance of several other Dragons and such. Gather Demon allies who are near to her, the kind that can help get the party there in the first place. This could be the point of some of the adventuring is to gather the allies necessary. Make it very obvious to the denizens of the world that the party is gathering forces necessary to take Tiamat down. Perhaps she gets cocky, leaves her realm and fights somewhere signifigantly less advantageous.
Perhaps hire a dedicated team of dragon hunters a la Dragonheart? Mooks using dragon specific tactics to busy up at least one of her heads, possibly more than one. Think massive grappling hooks and bizaare siege impliments designed specifically for fighting dragons.
Maybe toss in some lore involving the effects of dragons on certain regions of the world, how each place feels about dragons in general and how willing or unwilling they are to go up against Tiamat.

Also, do you plan on slaying her, or just defeating here? Beating her into submission/humiliation for a specific goal wouldn't be too bad an idea, and could still be an epic encounter.
IE-Party manages to fight her with a signifigant enough force. After taking a beating for a while, she agrees to parlay with them, as she is either impressed by their efforts, or is actually in danger of losing her life. The party negociates a settlement of some sort, such as dragons from nation X, Y, and Z all leave those lands immediately.

OOOH! Crazy idea time!
Throw a vial of DnD superglue into each of her mouths. That should stop the breath weapons for a little while, and make the bite attacks pretty useless. She could still slam with her heads though.
Bahumat will quit his job and commit suicide if Tiamat dies. If I'm not wrong, he still loves her as a sibling and wouldn't take it too well if she died.

Either that or the Rilmani kill him, and then eradicate all dragons of all kinds, and replace them with elementals.

Wings of Peace
2009-12-07, 09:05 PM
Unlike all my fellow males, I'm not the least bit interested in romance, it is a utter waste of time.

I won't lie. When you tell me a woman can turn into anything I want, the words on my mind are not "I want to romance her." Drop a few letters off romance and trade in for a different set of consonants and vowels and you'll have it though.

chiasaur11
2009-12-07, 09:10 PM
Then you get full sneak attacked by four of those copper Rilmani. Who's exact names escapes me at the moment. And if the Rilmani possess a supreme ruler like the other outsiders, then he's really damned good at hiding.

That's what the IRON HEART SURGE is for.

Followed by the Buddha Palm.

Volkov
2009-12-07, 09:15 PM
I won't lie. When you tell me a woman can turn into anything I want the word on my mind is "I want to romance her." Drop a few letters off romance and trade in for a different set of consonants and vowels and you'll have it though.

I'd go right to the sex...:smallbiggrin:

Ladorak
2009-12-07, 09:23 PM
Because I'm a child sometimes...


Unlike all my fellow males, I'm not the least bit interested in romance, it is a utter waste of time.



I'll make it big then.



I won't lie. When you tell me a woman can turn into anything I want the word on my mind is "I want to romance her." Drop a few letters off romance and trade in for a different set of consonants and vowels and you'll have it though.



That's what the IRON HEART SURGE is for.

Followed by the Buddha Palm.

Wings of Peace
2009-12-07, 09:30 PM
Never has forgetting the word "not" in one of my sentences spiraled so quickly out of control.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-07, 09:39 PM
Bahumat will quit his job and commit suicide if Tiamat dies. If I'm not wrong, he still loves her as a sibling and wouldn't take it too well if she died.


A. in this they aren't related.
B. BAHAMUT IS DEAD ALREADY
C. Ignore Canon. This doesn't follow canon.

Ladorak
2009-12-07, 09:47 PM
Never has forgetting the word "not" in one of my sentences spiraled so quickly out of control.

Ah, if you put it in I'd have done it anyway, and just not highlighted the budda palm bit. Not as funny but still amusing (To me)

Mystic Muse
2009-12-08, 12:07 AM
okay. I'll post what I can of my players character sheets. This way we can get out of the "Tiamat is Smexy!" and "She's a Witch! Burn her!" talk

Warlock
http://www.myth-weavers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=141&sy=3

Ranger
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=171463

both Rogues http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=171381 (yeah. their character sheets are identical)

Fighter
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=171465

I'll say it before anybody else does. "holy overpowered character stas batman!" Yeah, I realize that now. You don't really have to rub it in at this point. If stats are changed I did that on purpose for balance. Otherwise the Hobgoblin ranger wouldn't have nearly the same stats. Also, They all have magic items about equally. I just don't have them all put up yet. These should give you some idea of what the party has. And I'm aware the wizard sheet isn't up yet. I haven't finished making it.
Monty python reference for the win!

Mando Knight
2009-12-08, 02:39 AM
They should all multiclass into relevant Leader classes just so they can spend more than one or two Healing Surges per combat.

...No, wait, MC Leader gives you only one more per day. Oh, well. If they can spend it all at once, they'll be able to keep themselves alive for a little longer. Their defenses are average at best without their high stats, and their current feat selection does not look like a good start for taking down the Fivefold Mother. With four Strikers and a Wizard, no Leader, and no Primal or Divine characters, HP is going to be sorely lacking. No Leader also means worse to-hit, so the Wizard had better look into not-Stun/Daze save-proof cheesy penalty stacking if they want to survive. Speaking of which, No-Save is roughly the only way a Wizard can remain relevant against the big T, since she has a roughly 80% chance of ignoring a status effect immediately, drops a single set of Standard and Minor actions, and has somewhat nominal resistances in five of the major elemental damage types (though not Necrotic, which has some heavy hitters).

Fighter-Man needs to wield a Blade of the Eldritch Knight to increase his reach (since Tiamat can just teleport and then fly away). Everyone needs to invest in Reflex-targeting powers, and powers that slow or immobilize. They won't stop her entirely (due to Teleport 5), but it'll force her to stay in range.

Don't split the party. As tempting as it sounds to have the Ranger run away where Tiamat can't reach, there's a big problem: She can. She's far faster than any Skirmisher monster released so far, able to cover up to 75 squares and attack (fly-charging for the final 15) in one round, or 90 and attack with an action point. Teleport 5 means that the Fighter only slows her down a little before she warps out of his reach and flies around him. Any room where they can restrict her mobility has a worse problem: her Chromatic Breath and aura are likely to fill most of the battle map, causing massive levels of damage each turn even without her other four heads.

Shazbot79
2009-12-08, 04:39 AM
A red dragon can easily track down someone who stole a single copper piece from it's hoard. They'd find you. And murder you, and resurrect you, and murder you again, and resurrect you again, and murder you again and again and again and again, then the chromatic dragons would grow bored and then simply either fade into extinction out of sheer depression or B. become incredibly angry and take their rage out on the humanoid races.

You're speaking Greyhawk...they're speaking Points of Light.

Also, by the point in the characters careers where they go knocking on Tiamat's door looking for a fight, the PC's are well beyond Red Dragon's...even the mightiest of their kind are no match for a party of 30th level PC's.

Also, after Tiamat's murder of Bahamut, the PC's are going to have not only Moradin and Pelor's forces on their side, but also the clandestine support of any evil deity that might covet Tiamat's power for themselves (like...all of them)

Mystic Muse
2009-12-08, 11:48 AM
Io killed Bahamut not Tiamat. Tiamat WANTED to kill Bahamut and so she's mad and is going to kill Io.

Gamerlord
2009-12-08, 02:21 PM
Out of curiosity, why are their char sheets the same for the rogues?

Mystic Muse
2009-12-08, 02:27 PM
because they actually made them the exact freaking same.

Gamerlord
2009-12-08, 02:28 PM
because they actually made them the exact freaking same.

What are the odds of that? 1 in a million? Or is it a trillion?

Mystic Muse
2009-12-08, 02:29 PM
What are the odds of that? 1 in a million? Or is it a trillion?

actually it's very likely. My one cousin didn't want to go to the effort of making a character so he just made his the exact same.

he's kind of lazy like that sometimes.

Gamerlord
2009-12-08, 02:31 PM
actually it's very likely. My one cousin didn't want to go to the effort of making a character so he just made his the exact same.

he's kind of lazy like that sometimes.

Ah I see, well hold on for a minute while I try to calculate the odds of that actually happening by accident*?

*Why would I take the time to do that? Because I'm bored!

Also, I can't see the powers of your players chars, or maybe I'm just looking in the wrong part of the character sheet.

Very rough estimate: 1 in 280

Mystic Muse
2009-12-08, 02:38 PM
haven't put powers up yet other than on the Warlock I don't think. you can look down farther and then you'll see the powers and what they do.

Gamerlord
2009-12-08, 02:45 PM
haven't put powers up yet other than on the Warlock I don't think. you can look down farther and then you'll see the powers and what they do.

The Warlock link leads me to some "Games & Ads" section :smallconfused: .

Mystic Muse
2009-12-08, 03:06 PM
that is rather odd.

try this link.
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=171384

Gamerlord
2009-12-08, 03:09 PM
that is rather odd.

try this link.
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=171384

Ah, I see, thank you.

Mando Knight
2009-12-08, 03:31 PM
I see the Warlock now...

...Yeah, this isn't going to end well. They've already spent at least one feat each on non-combat things, which is going to hurt against Big T, who even when faced when the PCs are level 30, is 5 levels up and at roughly 80% accuracy before modifiers against standard defenses. She's a major threat to even an optimized (but not cheesy) party. Unless that Wizard has all the tricks in the group, she'll tear them to shreds if they don't do something about their combat optimization.

...No, wait. If one character has all the optimization, then he's vulnerable to taking Ti-chan's focus fire, which is essentially asking for death.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-08, 03:32 PM
okay. Sounds like Tiamat's out.


who else?

Gamerlord
2009-12-08, 03:34 PM
okay. Sounds like Tiamat's out.


who else?

Mual-tar? :smalltongue:

Kidding, Kidding.

How bout Orcus?

Mystic Muse
2009-12-08, 03:35 PM
Mual-tar? :smalltongue:

Kidding, Kidding.

How bout Orcus?

sounds good. They might stand a chance against him.

Gamerlord
2009-12-08, 03:48 PM
sounds good. They might stand a chance against him.

Or....*Checks adventure Tools*.... The Tarrasque? Or Orcus with a swarm of these babies:

Abyssal Madness Ghoul Level 30 Minion
Medium elemental humanoid XP 4,750
Initiative +22 Senses Perception +19
Unending Hunger aura 1; each enemy that starts its turn within the aura takes 10 damage.
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 44; Fortitude 40; Reflex 42; Will 39
Immune disease; poison; Resist 20 necrotic
Speed 6 , Climb 4
m Claws (standard; at-will) Necrotic
+35 vs AC; 16 necrotic damage, and the target is immobilized (save ends)
C Maddening Shriek (when the madness ghoul drops to 0 hit points) Necrotic
Close burst 1; +33 vs Reflex; 12 necrotic damage, and the target is dazed (save ends)
Alignment Chaotic Evil Languages Abyssal, Common
Skills Stealth +25
Str 21 (+20) Dex 24 (+22) Wis 18 (+19)
Con 22 (+21) Int 14 (+17) Cha 16 (+18)
Monster found in E3 Prince of Undeath and Compendium
2009 Wizards of the Coast LLC, a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All rights reserved. This monster statistics block has been generated using the D&D Adventure Tools.

Found them while looking through it.

Closak
2009-12-08, 03:55 PM
Let's face it, no one except for the mightiest epic level parties can stand a chance against our queens splendid might :smallbiggrin:


Now excuse me, i have a village to take over :smallcool:

Mando Knight
2009-12-08, 03:56 PM
Orcus is a lot easier, since he doesn't have Tiamat's tactical maneuverability and nova damage... with the exception of his recharging Touch of Death, which is pretty much game over for any group missing a good source of healing every round. His reactive power is also dangerous if he gets attacked in melee, since he can knock 'em on the ground and stun them with ease.

If you're iffy about the group's tactical capability, reel it in more. Any monsters over level 30 are basically meant to challenge players who know what they're doing. This includes all of the Demon Princes statted out so far, but not all of the Exarchs, so one of them or a level 28-30 solo like the Tarrasque, Ancient Red or Gold dragons, or the Beholder Ultimate Tyrant might work.

Gamerlord
2009-12-08, 03:58 PM
Let's face it, no one except for the mightiest epic level parties can stand a chance against our queens splendid might :smallbiggrin:


Now excuse me, i have a village to take over :smallcool:

And I have a dragon (Meaning Tiamat) To slay......

Also, am I the only guy who imagines Orcus as a short pudgy dude, not a giant sized dude?

Mando Knight
2009-12-08, 03:59 PM
And I have a dragon (Meaning Tiamat) To slay......

Also, am I the only guy who imagines Orcus as a short pudgy dude, not a giant sized dude?

Sitting on his throne, clutching his terrible rod?

Gamerlord
2009-12-08, 04:03 PM
Sitting on his throne, clutching his terrible rod?

......ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww....he's half-undead you know...

Mystic Muse
2009-12-08, 04:03 PM
And I have a dragon (Meaning Tiamat) To slay......



don't slay me. I'm a dragon but I'm a goodguy!

......even if I am half demon.

Gamerlord
2009-12-08, 04:04 PM
don't slay me. I'm a dragon but I'm a goodguy!

......even if I am half demon.

You're a conspirator, you are spared.

Don't worry, I'm not Lawful stupid. I'm Half-fiend myself to be honest :smalltongue: !

Closak
2009-12-08, 04:06 PM
You know, if the real Closak was here he would make it so this thread never existed in the first place.
Then he would retroactively erase the existence of everyone conspiring to kill Tiamat.

Sadly i am not the real deal.
It sucks to be a lackey :smallannoyed:

Mystic Muse
2009-12-08, 04:06 PM
You're a conspirator, you are spared.

Don't worry, I'm not Lawful stupid. I'm Half-fiend myself to be honest :smalltongue: !

you're also a Mindflayer.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-08, 04:07 PM
You know, if the real Closak was here he would make it so this thread never existed in the first place.
Then he would retroactively erase the existence of everyone conspiring to kill Tiamat.

Sadly i am not the real deal.
It sucks to be a lackey :smallannoyed:

see I'm not conspiring to kill the queen of Chromatic dragons.

I'm conspiring to kill the 4th edition fake version of her.:smalltongue:

and now it sounds like it isn't going to work so maybe something a little less good.

Gamerlord
2009-12-08, 04:07 PM
you're also a Mindflayer.

Am not! I'm just a half-fiend hobgoblin!

I fixed my "Mind flayer turned me into a Thrall" problem.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-08, 04:11 PM
Am not! I'm just a half-fiend hobgoblin!

I fixed my "Mind flayer turned me into a Thrall" problem.

yay.

also, one of my friends is a hobgoblin.

Mando Knight
2009-12-08, 04:17 PM
......ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww....he's half-undead you know...

I'm not the one who thought it up. Blame the guys who wrote the Manual of the Planes (who would be Jeff Grubb, Bruce Cordell, and David Noonan). And TV Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OrcusOnHisThrone), for pointing it out to me.

Gamerlord
2009-12-08, 04:20 PM
I'm not the one who thought it up. Blame the guys who wrote the Manual of the Planes (who would be Jeff Grubb, Bruce Cordell, and David Noonan). And TV Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OrcusOnHisThrone), for pointing it out to me.

Yeah, but still gross.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-08, 04:28 PM
if he's half undead would that make his rod immovable?:smalltongue:

Gamerlord
2009-12-08, 04:32 PM
if he's half undead would that make his rod immovable?:smalltongue:

So we went from:

Tactics vs. the big T to "Big T is hot" to "BURN THE WITCH" to tactics vs. orcus to him clutching his terrible rod.

Wow.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-08, 04:33 PM
So we went from:

Tactics vs. the big T to "BURN THE WITCH" to tactics vs. orcus to him clutching his terrible rod.

Wow.

you should see where some of my real life conversations go.

Gamerlord
2009-12-08, 04:35 PM
you should see where some of my real life conversations go.

An example please? Curious is the gamerkid!

Closak
2009-12-08, 04:38 PM
You forgot the "Big T is hot" part of the conversation *Stares at and drools*

Gamerlord
2009-12-08, 04:39 PM
You forgot the "Big T is hot" part of the conversation *Stares at and drools*
Well I'll add that part but she isn't!

Closak
2009-12-08, 04:41 PM
Yes she is, i do her if i had the chance :smalltongue:

Gamerlord
2009-12-08, 04:47 PM
Yes she is, i do her if i had the chance :smalltongue:

How is she hot?

Explain in a paragraph, with a Image included, and then maybe I'll believe you.

hamishspence
2009-12-08, 04:51 PM
There is a picture of Tiamat in human form in Faiths and Pantheons.

Not sure if there are 3.0 sourcebook art galleries on the WoTC site- or if there ever were.

I remember there being 3.5 galleries for a while.

Closak
2009-12-08, 04:52 PM
Just being a dragon is enough of a qualifier as far as i'm concerned.

Being a powerful god is a nice bonus.


'Course, some people hate dragons, you seem to be one of these.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-08, 04:56 PM
An example please? Curious is the gamerkid!

I'd give you one but I can't think of any at the moment.

Gamerlord
2009-12-08, 05:09 PM
'Course, some people hate dragons, you seem to be one of these.

Call me a traditional hero.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-09, 12:44 PM
Okay. I convinced one of my players to play a Cleric instead. In return he wants to be able to make a moon by level 30. I think he'll want at least a few attack abilities rather than focusing purely on healing. How do I make the cleric a viable melee/healing class? are there specific races/feat he should take?

Gamerlord
2009-12-09, 02:19 PM
Okay. I convinced one of my players to play a Cleric instead. In return he wants to be able to make a moon by level 30. I think he'll want at least a few attack abilities rather than focusing purely on healing. How do I make the cleric a viable melee/healing class? are there specific races/feat he should take?
By moon,do you mean a moon?


I had a old character from the CB that was a LG Melee cleric leader/striker/defender....let me dig it up... only prob is that char is a cleric of bahumut....and level 22.....

Mando Knight
2009-12-09, 04:05 PM
How do I make the cleric a viable melee/healing class?
It is one. Just grab a Dragonborn or Longtooth Shifter for stat synergy, pump up Strength and Wisdom, and keep Charisma somewhat decent and you're done. Cleric melee powers are good, generally granting random bonuses and healing or inflicting status effects while remaining roughly on par damage-wise with defenders and other leaders. Increased Wisdom improves the character's healing capabilities.

The other thing you might want to look into is the LAZOR Cleric, which deals damage and buffs/heals fantastically with only one ability score. It's a ranged build rather than a melee one, but several melee strikers means that the front lines are going to be crowded anyway.

Regardless, never build a Divine character without the Divine Power book, especially since it grants a wide variety of good feats that add rider effects to various powers.

Gamerlord
2009-12-09, 04:08 PM
Here is that character I mentioned, problem is he's lvl 22:
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Claw, level 22
Longtooth Shifter, Cleric, Battle Chaplain, Demigod
Build: Battle Cleric
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Strength
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Charisma
Battle Cleric Armaments: Weapon Proficiency (Broadsword)
Background: Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 26, Con 14, Dex 12, Int 12, Wis 22, Cha 16.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10.


AC: 34 Fort: 34 Reflex: 29 Will: 34
HP: 143 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 35

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +17, History +17, Insight +22, Heal +22

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +9, Arcana +12, Bluff +14, Diplomacy +14, Dungeoneering +17, Endurance +12, Intimidate +14, Nature +17, Perception +17, Stealth +9, Streetwise +14, Thievery +9, Athletics +18

FEATS
Cleric: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Battle Cleric Armaments
Level 2: Improved Initiative
Level 4: Gorebrute Charge
Level 6: Wild Senses
Level 8: Against All Odds
Level 10: Power Attack
Level 11: Devastating Critical
Level 12: Beasthide Shifting
Level 14: Pervasive Light
Level 16: Immediate Justice
Level 18: Battle Healer
Level 20: Powerful Charge
Level 21: Epic Resurgence
Level 22: Burst of Savagery

POWERS
Channel Divinity: Turn Undead
Cleric at-will 1: Priest's Shield
Cleric at-will 1: Righteous Brand
Cleric encounter 1: Divine Glow
Cleric daily 1: Avenging Flame
Cleric utility 2: Return from Death's Door
Cleric encounter 3: Split the Sky
Cleric daily 5: Weapon of the Gods
Cleric utility 6: Cure Serious Wounds
Cleric encounter 7: Awe Strike
Cleric daily 9: Flame Strike
Cleric utility 10: Mass Cure Light Wounds
Cleric encounter 13: Arc of the Righteous (replaces Divine Glow)
Cleric daily 15: Brilliant Censure (replaces Weapon of the Gods)
Cleric utility 16: Cure Critical Wounds
Cleric encounter 17: Divine Phalanx (replaces Split the Sky)
Cleric daily 19: Knight of Glory (replaces Brilliant Censure)
Cleric utility 22: Mass Cure Serious Wounds

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Adventurer's Kit, Holy Symbol, Darkforged Chainmail +5, Amulet of Protection +5, Jagged Broadsword +5, Shield of the Guardian Heavy Shield (epic tier)
RITUALS
Gentle Repose, Brew Potion

Mystic Muse
2009-12-09, 04:09 PM
well I have divine power so no worries there.

@Gamerkid. By moon I mean that big glowing orb outside at night.

Gamerlord
2009-12-09, 04:10 PM
So that kind of moon......

You're serious?

DO YOU KNOW WHAT A MOON DOES?????

Mystic Muse
2009-12-09, 04:14 PM
For the most part yes.

EDIT: this might not work. he just said he wants to ATTACK with planetary bodies. *facepalm*

Gamerlord
2009-12-09, 04:25 PM
For the most part yes.

EDIT: this might not work. he just said he wants to ATTACK with planetary bodies. *facepalm*

.....what?

Give a player a inch, they take a mile :smallsigh: .

Anyway, what are the chances of that build I posted working out?

Mystic Muse
2009-12-09, 04:44 PM
Sorry. I'm trying to convince the kid to be reasonable. his next suggestion was every ten level he gets a clone. Once I can convince him to be reasonable I'll look over your build.

Also @ gamerkid, pretty dang off topic. Nobody else has PMed me back. Should I just go ahead an make a comic?

Gamerlord
2009-12-09, 04:46 PM
Sorry. I'm trying to convince the kid to be reasonable. his next suggestion was every ten level he gets a clone. Once I can convince him to be reasonable I'll look over your build.

Also @ gamerkid, pretty dang off topic. Nobody else has PMed me back. Should I just go ahead an make a comic?

Go ahead with the comic.

Also note that my build is 22th level, and worships bahumut.

Clones= Cheap excuse to make the game act like a 4e conversion of paranoia :smalltongue:

Mystic Muse
2009-12-09, 04:50 PM
Go ahead with the comic.

Also note that my build is 22th level, and worships bahumut.

Clones= Cheap excuse to make the game act like a 4e conversion of paranoia :smalltongue:

I don't think there's anything in the rules against worshipping a dead god.

And yeah, I know it's 22nd level.

I will go ahead witht eh comic. I'm going to try ONE more idea with the player first though.

Gamerlord
2009-12-09, 04:51 PM
I don't think there's anything in the rules against worshipping a dead god.

And yeah, I know it's 22nd level.

I will go ahead witht eh comic. I'm going to try ONE more idea with the player first though.

How about extra healing surges?

Kris Strife
2009-12-09, 04:54 PM
Also @ gamerkid, pretty dang off topic. Nobody else has PMed me back. Should I just go ahead an make a comic?

I take offense to that! I responded to you!

Gamerlord
2009-12-09, 04:56 PM
I take offense to that! I responded to you!

I think she already mentioned you in a PM to me, you and I are apparently at odds over what Lolth should look like.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-09, 05:02 PM
I take offense to that! I responded to you!

yeah, like Gamerkid said. I mentioned you in a PM to him. I meant nobody besides you and him responded.

apologies.

OKAY. I got the guy to agree to use small meteors for his abilities and when he does the big damage spells it looks like a planetary body crushing his enemy.

Now to look at your build Gamerkid.

Gamerlord
2009-12-09, 05:08 PM
yeah, like Gamerkid said. I mentioned you in a PM to him. I meant nobody besides you and him responded.

apologies.

OKAY. I got the guy to agree to use small meteors for his abilities and when he does the big damage spells it looks like a planetary body crushing his enemy.

Now to look at your build Gamerkid.

WARNING: I'm not a very good optimizer.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-09, 05:12 PM
I can't find battle cleric armaments in PHB1, 2 or Divine power.:smallconfused:

Gamerlord
2009-12-09, 05:13 PM
I can't find battle cleric armaments in PHB1, 2 or Divine power.:smallconfused:

Let me check the CB.....

Gamerlord
2009-12-09, 05:19 PM
Uh-oh, its in dragon magezine issue 379, but I can repeat it here:

You need to be a cleric and have STR 15, it is heroic tier, gives you prof with light shields and one military weapon of choice.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-09, 05:29 PM
anything else from dragon? I don't have a DDI account.

Gamerlord
2009-12-09, 05:30 PM
Well I would recommend you get a DDI account, let me check all the feats and I'll tell you where they're from...

Mystic Muse
2009-12-09, 05:32 PM
I would but I have no job and no money.

Gamerlord
2009-12-09, 05:33 PM
I would but I have no job and no money.

I have a allowance :smalltongue: .

Mystic Muse
2009-12-09, 05:36 PM
I have a allowance :smalltongue: .

I do not.:smalltongue:

Gamerlord
2009-12-09, 05:43 PM
here is a list of all the other dragon-only feats:

Against all odds
Immediate justice

Mando Knight
2009-12-09, 09:23 PM
anything else from dragon? I don't have a DDI account.

Even those who don't have a DDI account can make use of parts of the Compendium (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/database.aspx): it's a fast way of looking up which publication a specific element is from. You just can't read the specific text without a subscription.

Gamerlord
2009-12-10, 02:14 PM
You cannot however, actually read the Dragon magazine or article.

Mystic Muse
2009-12-10, 02:23 PM
well, if I can manage to get this job I'll be able to get DDI

Gamerlord
2009-12-10, 02:26 PM
well, if I can manage to get this job I'll be able to get DDI

Its very helpful, and you won't have to buy nearly as many books.

taltamir
2009-12-10, 02:34 PM
I won't lie. When you tell me a woman can turn into anything I want, the words on my mind are not "I want to romance her." Drop a few letters off romance and trade in for a different set of consonants and vowels and you'll have it though.

The stereotypical man doesn't care for romancing, but does it anyways as a means to an end (being, the woman requires it).

Mystic Muse
2009-12-10, 02:38 PM
Its very helpful, and you won't have to buy nearly as many books.

I don't have to buy them anyway.:smallwink:
No. not illegal downloading. I use a library card

Gamerlord
2009-12-10, 02:40 PM
I don't have to buy them anyway.:smallwink:
No. not illegal downloading. I use a library card

Lucky you, you're library has D&D books, I found ONE D&D book at mine once.

Elder Evils.

*DUN-DUN-DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN*

Mystic Muse
2009-12-10, 02:45 PM
Lucky you, you're library has D&D books, I found ONE D&D book at mine once.

Elder Evils.

*DUN-DUN-DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN*



Mine has a ton of D&D books.

I think your library is an elder evil.:smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

Gamerlord
2009-12-10, 02:46 PM
Mine has a ton of D&D books.

I think your library is an elder evil.:smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

It's staff always acted like old one worshipers...so did the post office's staff...

Mystic Muse
2009-12-10, 02:54 PM
It's staff always acted like old one worshipers...so did the post office's staff...

Kill them with your mind flayer thrall powers!

Or you hobgoblin laser vision!/Goblins reference

Gamerlord
2009-12-10, 03:01 PM
Kill them with your mind flayer thrall powers!

Or you hobgoblin laser vision!/Goblins reference

I got rid of my mind flayer problem and contrary to popular belief we don't have laser vision, also, I don't read goblins.

taltamir
2009-12-10, 05:59 PM
It's staff always acted like old one worshipers...so did the post office's staff...

shouldn't they HAVE D&D books then? you know... to lure children to the dark side?

Gamerlord
2009-12-10, 06:15 PM
should they HAVE D&D books then? you know... to lure children to the dark side?

They only had Elder evils....and a ton of H.P Lovecraft IIRC, as well as about a busload of Harry potter...did I mention the warhammer 40k books?

taltamir
2009-12-10, 06:18 PM
it is better to die for the emperor than to live for yourself!

Gamerlord
2009-12-10, 07:04 PM
it is better to die for the emperor than to live for yourself!

Did I mention that for some unforeseen reason, they recently shortened the amount of time you can keep a movie? And some books?

Asbestos
2009-12-10, 07:28 PM
I don't think there are any Kobold or Lizardfolk gods in 4th edition, Bahamut is dead and Io is GOING to die.

Wait, isn't Io already dead in 4th? If Bahamut is dead... you better hope his dominion still exists.