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BRC
2009-12-07, 11:51 AM
Doctor
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/UnA_Gallery/79207.jpg
Stop whining, I've seen worse, now hold still and let me work.
The Doctor is, above all else, a Healer. However, unlike the Cleric, who heals by shoving positive energy into the patient haphazardly, a Doctor uses very carefully applied magic and medical knowledge. Many consider the Doctor a pushover in combat, this is a mistake. A team with a good Doctor can keep fighting long after they should have fallen, and Doctors themselves have a few nasty tricks they can use in battle.
(It should be noted that this class is partially intended for a western-style setting Iím thinking up that doesnít have clerics, but it might be able to function in a game with Clerics).
Hit Die: D8
Skills: (6+Int)x4 at first level. 6+int at every level after first.
The Doctorís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).
The Doctor
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Stem Wounds, Surgery.

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Treatment

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|Mobility

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Surgical Precision

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Do no Harm

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|Preventative Medicine

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+2|
+6|Diagnosis

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+3|
+6|Heal Thyself

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+3|
+7|Master Surgeon

11th|
+8/+2|
+7|
+3|
+7|Immunization

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8|Malpractice

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8|Placebo Effect

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+4 |
+9|Second Opinion
15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+5|
+9| Emergency Care
16th|
+12/+7+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Donít Fear the Reaper

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+11|
+6|
+11|Experimental Procedure

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11| Speedy Medicine

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|Class Ability

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Cure for all Ails[/table]
Class Features
Proficiency: Light Armor, Simple weapons and light martial weapons.
Stem Wounds: At first level the Doctor gains to ability to quickly patch up his allies. As a standard action a Doctor may make a Heal check and grant temporary hit points equal to the result. These last a number of minutes equal to the Doctorís class level. You cannot take 10 on this check. These temporary hit points cannot raise the target's HP above their normal maximum.
Surgery: At first level a doctor gains the ability to, through a combination of magic and medicine, treat injuries. The Doctor makes a Heal check and cures (Result x2) points of damage. This takes half an hour. You cannot use this ability on any individual more than once a day. You cannot take 10 on this check.
Treatment: At second level the Doctor gains the ability to cure ailments with a successful heal check. A Treatment takes half an hour and simulates a spell. See the Treatment list for more information. Once a treatment has been tried on a given target, the doctor cannot attempt that treatment on that individual again for the rest of the day.
Mobility: At third level a Doctor gains Mobility as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.
Surgical Precision: At fourth level a Doctor wielding a light weapon may use their knowledge of anatomy to increase the power of their strikes, adding their wisdom bonus to damage with light weapons. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to the extra damage from Surgical Precision.
Do No Harm: At fifth level a Doctor may gain the benefits of a Sanctuary spell (as if they had cast it) 3/day.
Preventative Medicine: At sixth level a Doctorís regular treatments make his allies healthier and more powerful. A Doctor may spend 10 minutes a day treating somebody, if these treatments continue for three days that person gains additional hit points equal to the doctorís class level +wisdom modifier. These hit points go away if the doctor cannot treat the person.
Diagnosis: At eighth level a Doctor gains the ability to quickly gauge the health of their allies. They gain Status at will as a spell like ability.
Heal Thyself: At ninth level a doctor learns to bind their own wounds as they treat a patient. Anytime a doctor uses an ability on somebody else, they may also have it affect themselves.
Master Surgeon: At tenth level a Doctor adds their class level as a competence bonus on Heal Checks for the purpose of Surgery.
Immunization: At Eleventh level a doctor adds one half their class level as a bonus on fortitude saves to resist disease and poison.
Malpractice: At 12th level a Doctor may make a special melee attack as a full round action three times a day. If this attack hits, any healing the target would receive for 1d6+1 rounds instead deals that much damage. This includes healing from Regeneration or Fast Healing.
Placebo Effect: At 13th level, even if a doctor fails a treatment his patient may recover. If a Doctor fails a treatment that removes a status effect, the patient receives a new saving throw to resist the effect.
Second Opinion: At 14th level a Doctor gains the ability to attempt Surgery or a Treatment on a given individual twice a day.
Emergency Care: At 15th level a Doctor adds his Class level to his Heal check when using Stem Wounds on an ally with less than 0 hit points.
Donít fear the Reaper: At 16th level a Doctor is treated as being permanently under the effects of a Death Ward spell.
Experimental Procedure:At 17th level a Doctor may use untried techniques to increase the effectiveness of his treatments, at a greater risk. When a Doctor uses a treatment he may add a +5 bonus to his heal check. However, if the treatment fails, the patient takes 1d6+2 damage to a random ability score.
Speedy medicine: At 18th level a Doctorís surgeries and treatments only take 10 minutes.
Cure for all Ails: At 20th level a Doctor has reached the pinnacle of medical perfection. Once a day, as a full round action, he may completely cure an individual. The individual is restored to full hit points, any ability damage or drain is restored, and any status ailments (Disease, Paralysis, Poison, Blindness, Deafness, Petrifaction, ect) are removed.
Treatments

Purify Food/Drink: DC 10. Requires 2nd level.
Restoration Lesser: DC 15, Requires 3rd level.
Remove Paralysis: DC 15, Requires 3rd level.
Remove Curse: DC 20, requires 5th level
Remove Blindness/Deafness, DC 20, 5th level
Remove Disease: DC 20, requires 5th level
Neutralize Poison: DC 25, 7th level
Restoration: DC 25, 7th level
Raise Dead: DC 28, 9th level. Requires 5000gp in specialized medicines.
Regeneration: DC 32, 12th level
Resurrection: DC 32, 12th level 10000 GP in specialized medicines.
True Resurrection: DC 40, 16th Level, 25000 GP In specialized medicines.


Homebrewers note: I want to give them the ability to cast some spells (Owls Wisdom, Catís Grace, Bulls Strength, Eagles Splendor, Foxís Cunning, Bearís Endurance, Poison, Bestow Curse, Contagion, and maybe some others). The list isnít long enough for them to have casting proper, but I would like them to have these abilities somehow. Also, there are a decent amount of dead levels after 10th that I wouldn't mind filling.

Note 2: I know the Treatment DC's seem high, but I calculated them, for the most part, so that a Doctor of the level they gain access to the treatment with max ranks in heal (As they should have) and masterwork tools would succeed on a 10. Throw in Wisdom modifiers and other bonus they could acquire, and most of those DC's are easily reachable. The big exception to this is True Resurrection, but that's equally intentional. True Rezing somebody shouldn't be easy.

dsmiles
2009-12-07, 12:16 PM
"Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor, not a cleric!"

Nice HB. I don't play 3.5 anymore, but this looks good. Balanced. As far as the partial casting goes, you could give them as SLA's at various levels. Like the rogue's special abilities at 10th and higher levels.

BRC
2009-12-07, 12:25 PM
Ooh, how about this to fill that emptiness at level 7
Heal or Harm: Four times a day a Doctor may either increase or decrease any ability score by 4. If used on a willing target, this merely requires the Doctor to be within melee range, if the target is unwilling, the doctor must succeed on a melee attack (as if wielding a light weapon), and the opponent gets a fort save (DC 14+Doctor's Wisdom modifier) to resist the effect. This lasts a number of minutes equal to the Doctor's class level.

Fortuna
2009-12-07, 12:34 PM
I believe that you have a typo. You list treat wounds in the table, but describe stem wounds.

Kiren
2009-12-07, 03:22 PM
Much more simple then my surgery system.

I'm not good with balance, but it looks fun.

TabletopNuke
2009-12-07, 03:31 PM
Yes! Now we can stat out Black Jack! (Cohort Pinoko?)

Now that I have that bit of nerdery out of the way, I like this class a lot. I've been working out some new ideas for the Heal skill, and this is right up my ally. These might be relevant to your interests as well.

Heal now has several subcategories, Heal (Medicine), Heal (Surgery), and Heal (Mental)(which I can get into later).

Heal (Medicine): (Wis)
You are trained in medical procedures and treatment. This skill can be used to help others recover from wounds, keep others from dying, or to treat poison and disease.
Check: Probably the same as in the PH
Action: Probably the same as in the PH
Try Again: Probably the same as in the PH, I'll definitely impose Critical Failure results (Malpractice!)

Heal (Surgery): (Wis; Armor Check Penalty; Trained Only)
You can preform surgical operations. The operation requires at least a few appropriate simple tools (knife, needle, thread, and such). Attempting a Heal (Surgery) check without a proper surgery kit imposes a -2 circumstance penalty, even if simple tools are employed. If you use a masterwork surgery kit, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on the check.
Check: Still working on it, but your DCs might be a good start.
Action: Again, I'm still working on it, but your idea is a good starting point.
Special: You apply your Dexterity mod to Heal (Surgery) checks in addition to Wisdom, even though it is technically a Wisdom-based skill.
Untrained: Surgery cannot be preformed untrained.

Skill Synergy:
Having 5 ranks in Heal (Medicine) provides a +2 skill synergy bonus to Heal (Surgery), and vice-versa.

Lastly, do you mind if I borrow and modify this class for my Breakdown setting?

Frog Dragon
2009-12-07, 03:37 PM
Surgical precision is currently written so that creatures immune to crits can't use it. I take it this was not your intent? Maybe that it can't be used on creatures immune to crits?

BRC
2009-12-07, 04:05 PM
Yes! Now we can stat out Black Jack! (Cohort Pinoko?)

Now that I have that bit of nerdery out of the way, I like this class a lot. I've been working out some new ideas for the Heal skill, and this is right up my ally. These might be relevant to your interests as well.

Heal now has several subcategories, Heal (Medicine), Heal (Surgery), and Heal (Mental)(which I can get into later).

Heal (Medicine): (Wis)
You are trained in medical procedures and treatment. This skill can be used to help others recover from wounds, keep others from dying, or to treat poison and disease.
Check: Probably the same as in the PH
Action: Probably the same as in the PH
Try Again: Probably the same as in the PH, I'll definitely impose Critical Failure results (Malpractice!)

Heal (Surgery): (Wis; Armor Check Penalty; Trained Only)
You can preform surgical operations. The operation requires at least a few appropriate simple tools (knife, needle, thread, and such). Attempting a Heal (Surgery) check without a proper surgery kit imposes a -2 circumstance penalty, even if simple tools are employed. If you use a masterwork surgery kit, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on the check.
Check: Still working on it, but your DCs might be a good start.
Action: Again, I'm still working on it, but your idea is a good starting point.
Special: You apply your Dexterity mod to Heal (Surgery) checks in addition to Wisdom, even though it is technically a Wisdom-based skill.
Untrained: Surgery cannot be preformed untrained.

Skill Synergy:
Having 5 ranks in Heal (Medicine) provides a +2 skill synergy bonus to Heal (Surgery), and vice-versa.

Lastly, do you mind if I borrow and modify this class for my Breakdown setting?
Feel free to borrow and modify, though I would like it if you credited me and linked back here.
As for your heal system, no offense, but currently all you have is "There are two different subsets of the heal skill", so I can't really form an opinion on it.

Frogdragon: Thanks, that is fixed. Zombie Doctors the world over rejoice, Zombie Fighting doctors shed a tiny tiny tear.

TabletopNuke
2009-12-07, 04:56 PM
As for your heal system, no offense, but currently all you have is "There are two different subsets of the heal skill", so I can't really form an opinion on it.

Sure you can. What do you think about splitting the Heal skill into subcategories, and the Dexterity and Armor influence on surgery? I thought they made more sense (Heh, surgical scrubs over full plate armor), but I don't know if that will mess with the balance. My intention is that boosting the usability of the Heal subskills will help counter the split.

Sir Sanguine
2009-12-07, 05:17 PM
Er, shouldn't he have Heal as a class skill?

It's cool, though. I like the concept.

BRC
2009-12-07, 05:21 PM
Er, shouldn't he have Heal as a class skill?

It's cool, though. I like the concept.
Woah, nice catch. I grabbed the Rogue skill list and chopped some stuff off, I forgot to make sure it included the one skill the class is almost entierly based around.

Sir Sanguine
2009-12-07, 05:58 PM
I quite honestly came into the thread thinking "Wow, a new base class! I should give some constructive and insightful criticism. Actually, coming up with some constructive and insightful criticism sounds hard. I hope he forgot Heal from the skill list or something, so I can appear intelligent."

BRC
2009-12-07, 05:59 PM
I quite honestly came into the thread thinking "Wow, a new base class! I should give some constructive and insightful criticism. Actually, coming up with some constructive and insightful criticism sounds hard. I hope he forgot Heal from the skill list or something, so I can appear intelligent."

I am looking for a good way to incorporate those spells into the class.
edit: @ tabletopnuke
I like the idea, but I don't think it would synergize well with this class, which already splits Heal into two uses (First Aid for Stem Wounds, and Surgery for...well...Surgery).

That said, while I agree with the Armor check penalty (It's hard to clamp an artery while wearing gauntlets) I don't agree with the Dex bonus. Dexterity does include fine motor skills, which should be essential, but somebody whose just really fast shouldn't be anywhere near as good a surgeon as somebody whose really smart.


If you want to include the Dex bonus, I would cap it at +2.

TabletopNuke
2009-12-07, 06:14 PM
That said, while I agree with the Armor check penalty (It's hard to clamp an artery while wearing gauntlets) I don't agree with the Dex bonus. Dexterity does include fine motor skills, which should be essential, but somebody whose just really fast shouldn't be anywhere near as good a surgeon as somebody whose really smart.


If you want to include the Dex bonus, I would cap it at +2.

I wasn't thinking speed so much as manual Dexterity. Have you ever tried dissecting something? If your hands aren't rock-steady, it's really hard!

Is there any reason you picked +2, or is it just an arbitrary number? What about only applying a Dex mod penalty, and maybe offering a feat that allowed one to add their Dex bonus as well?

BRC
2009-12-07, 06:29 PM
I wasn't thinking speed so much as manual Dexterity. Have you ever tried dissecting something? If your hands aren't rock-steady, it's really hard!

Is there any reason you picked +2, or is it just an arbitrary number? What about only applying a Dex mod penalty, and maybe offering a feat that allowed one to add their Dex bonus as well?
That's what I was talking about when I meant fine motor skills. The thing is, in DnD, there is no differentiation between excellent manual dexterity (Open Lock), hand-eye coordination (Ranged attacks), sneakiness (Hide and Move Silently) and reflexes (dodge bonus to AC, initiative checks, Reflex saves).
I Picked +2 because it's a good minor bonus. Enough to acknowledge that yes, this person's dexterity is helping them, but not enough to turn an Acrobat (Tumble focused, and therefore with High dex) into an expert surgeon.

TabletopNuke
2009-12-07, 07:53 PM
That's what I was talking about when I meant fine motor skills. The thing is, in DnD, there is no differentiation between excellent manual dexterity (Open Lock), hand-eye coordination (Ranged attacks), sneakiness (Hide and Move Silently) and reflexes (dodge bonus to AC, initiative checks, Reflex saves).

That's something that's bothered me about the D&D ever since I first started playing (I have excellent manual dexterity and a mild gross motor impairment). I'd like to split Dexterity into 2 stats; Agility (Gross Motor) and Dexterity (Fine Motor), but there's tons of balance issues with that. I get the feeling that Agility would become a little more of a second fiddle, and Dexterity would become a dump stat, due to it's limited use (Skills, and more skills).


I Picked +2 because it's a good minor bonus. Enough to acknowledge that yes, this person's dexterity is helping them, but not enough to turn an Acrobat (Tumble focused, and therefore with High dex) into an expert surgeon.

What about applying 1/2 Dex bonus? Then someone very agile would still only have a marginal advantage. That's a +1 bonus for every 4 points of Dex.

DracoDei
2009-12-07, 09:00 PM
Is a target that is under the effects of Malpractice aware of those effects? It could be a very important distinction.

Edit: Overall power level seems pretty low, but adding in those extra SLA's you talked about will help that some, and in a low-power game I can definitely see playing one of these...

Kiren
2009-12-07, 09:05 PM
Is a target that is under the effects of Malpractice aware of those effects? It could be a very important distinction.

Now we need to stat a lawyer.

DracoDei
2009-12-07, 09:12 PM
Now we need to stat a lawyer.


A PrC for Experts that requires Evil alignment?

Cute_Riolu
2009-12-07, 09:42 PM
A PrC for Experts that requires Evil alignment?

Or a Phoenix Wright-style PC class.

BRC
2009-12-08, 09:47 AM
Fighter: Dammit, how are we supposed to beat this guy if he keeps getting healed?
Doctor: Don't worry, I've got this covered. I'll use Malpractice *roll* A Hit! *roll* 5 rounds, let's do this thing.
Fighter: Nice Work , lets's do this.
DM: Okay Doc, you use your magical and medical skills to injure him in such away as to reverse and healing he would receive. May I see your character sheet?
Doctor: Okay...
DM: Hrmm, you don't have a legal counsel listed?
Doctor: What are you talking about?
DM: The Evil Cultist sues you for medical malpractice, he's willing to settle for 10,000 GP, do you want to try your luck in court?
Doctor: What? He's trying to bring about the Apocolypse, he dosn't get to sue! What the hell-
Wizard: Don't worry, I got this handled. I cast Summon Legal Council IV.
Bard: I'll use Media Sympathy!
DM: *Makes some rolls* Alright, the bard spins you to the public as a well-intentioned doctor who made a mistake anybody could have made, and was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The Cultist is spun as a selfish gold digger who should really shut up. This Pre-Biases the Jury in your favor. Your expert lawyer does the rest. Congratulations, you won this trial, but the charges stand. Roll to keep your medical license.
Docter:-Just happened.

Cute_Riolu
2009-12-08, 04:45 PM
Do you mind if I use this class (and modify a bit), giving you credit, of course?

BRC
2009-12-08, 04:46 PM
Do you mind if I use this class (and modify a bit), giving you credit, of course?
Go right ahead. In fact, would you mind posting your modified version here? I might get some ideas from it.

Cute_Riolu
2009-12-08, 04:51 PM
Oh, it probably won't be much... just some skills. But then again, I might try some anyway. :P

Edit: Quick modification on skills.

Skills: (6+Int)x4 at first level. 6+int at every level after first.
The Doctorís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Handle Animal (Cha) Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex)

Reasoning for changes: Removed several out of place ones like Open Lock, Disable Device, and Search, added a few appropriate ones such as Survival (goes well with the healer thing), and Handle Animal (animals need healing, too!). A few I left alone: Decipher script, because you need that to understand medical texts. Social skills, because doctors tend to be fairly personable, if only from the experience in telling people that their loved ones died. Use Rope: Sutures. I was thinking of changing it to 4+int. Would still give them room for skills, but wouldn't make them bards.

TabletopNuke
2009-12-08, 10:30 PM
Have you considered adding Knowledge (Nature)? That skill is used for knowledge of animals and plants (biology and healing herbs?).

I'm unsure whether 4 or 6 skill points would be better. On one hand, I don;t think it would overshadow the bard (rangers have 6 skill points, after all), and doctors are supposed to study a lot. But on the other hand, healing with no cap other than skill results is a useful ability, and doctors study healing more than other skills.

ChrisFortyTwo
2009-12-08, 11:23 PM
That's what I was talking about when I meant fine motor skills. The thing is, in DnD, there is no differentiation between excellent manual dexterity (Open Lock), hand-eye coordination (Ranged attacks), sneakiness (Hide and Move Silently) and reflexes (dodge bonus to AC, initiative checks, Reflex saves).
I Picked +2 because it's a good minor bonus. Enough to acknowledge that yes, this person's dexterity is helping them, but not enough to turn an Acrobat (Tumble focused, and therefore with High dex) into an expert surgeon.

Perhaps Surgery allows a Synergy from Sleight of Hand, or certain Surgery skill check requires Sleight of Hand instead of Heal?

I'm reminded a little bit of the Dragoon/Jump min-max, where the entire class was based around one skill, and with the right combination of feats and bonuses, the class just broke into pieces.

Also, the focus of the class is healing - what does he do the rest of the time? I mean, part of the Cleric's domain is a secondary melee and primary caster. This guy heals each character once (or twice) per day, and he's done. A 10 battle dungeon crawl would turn into a week long event. I had a cleric who mastered memorizing rooms to teleport, just to avoid a one-battle kill (think teleport out, heal up, buy supplies, and reset).

I think a little more focus on his other abilities - if he could be a buffing spellcaster, that could help a lot. I mean, a ranger-like spell list with abjuration and transmutation could do well. Maybe he could get a few new exotic high-precision weapons.

Maybe surgical precision could be more like the sneak attack, or cause selective temporary physical ability damage (until healed). Ooh, I like that, he can select a major artery, and do CON damage, or a certain muscle to do STR damage, or a tendon to do DEX. Starts at 1d6, increase by +1d6 every 3 or 4 levels.

Good class features grow and repeat, I mean, look at some of the core classes. For the good ones (I am being opinionated - don't slaughter me for it), there is one Big ability that everyone remembers, and other things that support.
Barbarian - Rage, more rage, better Rage. Easy to remember, easy to do.
Bard - lots of stuff - I learned most of it because I played one to level 15 or so, but I would forget options all the time, or would have to look up something or other. Spells were the easy part.
Cleric - armor, weapons, spells, especially Cure X wounds.
Druid - Wildshape and animal companion. The rest is just sidelines and better wildshaping.
Fighter - Feats
Monk - I never remember half the crap they get - unarmed strike is nice, but it's one low level feat. After that, it's like someone just made stuff up.
Paladin - Gotta be LG. Then it's Detect and Smite Evil.
Rogue - Skill monkey, Sneak Attack and Evasion.
Ranger - Duel Weapon/Archery and Track. Then there's a ton of other stuff that players who like rangers know, and Optimizers love, but no one else knows what they get at higher level.
Sorcerer - on-the-fly spellcasting
Wizard - prep / specialized casting

Your Doctor is cool, but to really sell it, you need an overarching Special (not the heal skill). Also, you don't want it to be "roll and done". The player will be bored to tears, and wish he was something else (better at something).

Ok, so I guess I've filled up a lot on this....take it or leave it.

TabletopNuke
2009-12-09, 01:30 AM
Maybe surgical precision could be more like the sneak attack, or cause selective temporary physical ability damage (until healed). Ooh, I like that, he can select a major artery, and do CON damage, or a certain muscle to do STR damage, or a tendon to do DEX. Starts at 1d6, increase by +1d6 every 3 or 4 levels.

Ooh, I like this idea a lot! It's certainly a popular concept (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeadlyDoctor). Complete Scoundrel has Ambush Feats, which allow the user to sacrifice sneak attack damage to inflict other effects, such as speed penalties and ability damage. My suggestion is using the rogue class as a starting point, replacing a few sneak attack increases with bonus ambush feats, and substituting trapfinding and the lot with the doctor class features you came up with.

Dang, this is starting to sound pretty good! I might just make one of these of my own, tailored to my Breakdown setting.

BRC
2009-12-09, 10:24 AM
Ooh, I like this idea a lot! It's certainly a popular concept (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeadlyDoctor). Complete Scoundrel has Ambush Feats, which allow the user to sacrifice sneak attack damage to inflict other effects, such as speed penalties and ability damage. My suggestion is using the rogue class as a starting point, replacing a few sneak attack increases with bonus ambush feats, and substituting trapfinding and the lot with the doctor class features you came up with.

Dang, this is starting to sound pretty good! I might just make one of these of my own, tailored to my Breakdown setting.
Maybe combining it with debuffing.

Kind of like with Ambush feats, the Doctor can trade their Sneak Attack dice for a variety of debuffs. This is a rough idea of the system in question:

Sense Impediment: The Doctor may trade 3d6 sneak attack to focus his strikes on the nervous system. The target must make a fort save vs DC 10+doctors Wis Modifier+number of remaining sneak attack die or become Blind or Deafened.
Immune Suppresion: The Doctor may trade 4d6 sneak attack to hamper the target's immune system. The target must make a fort save vs DC 10+doctor's wisdom modifier+number of remaining Sneak attack die or be affected as by the Contagion spell.
Improvised Anesthesia: The Doctor may trade 3d6 Sneak attack dice to knock out a target. The target must make a fort save vs DC 10+doctors wisdom modifier+number of remaining sneak attack die or fall asleep.
Muscular Disruption: The Doctor may trade 2d6 sneak attack dice to hit a target in such a way as to disrupt their movement. The target must make a Fort save vs DC 10+doctor's wisdom modifier+Number of remaining sneak attack dice or be paralyzed for 1d4 rounds.
Assisted Homicide: The Doctor may trade 7d6 sneak attack dice to strike the target in such a way as to stop their heart. The target must make a fortitude save vs DC 10+Doctor's wisdom modifier+number of remaining sneak attack dice or die.

edit: I like this because, as opposed to standard spell saves, the more powerful techniques are actually easier to resist than the less powerful ones.

Edit: Doctor Feats

Heal the Sick
Requirement: Doctor Level 6th, Heal 8 ranks.
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus to heal checks on treatments and surgeries.

Sicken the Healthy
Requirement: Doctor level 6th, Heal 8 ranks
Add +2 to your save DC's.

ChrisFortyTwo
2009-12-10, 11:16 AM
Maybe combining it with debuffing.

edit: I like this because, as opposed to standard spell saves, the more powerful techniques are actually easier to resist than the less powerful ones.


I think that's actually a detriment. A player doesn't want to get a new ability (maybe the Stop Heart right after they got 8d6 sneak attack.) And their save DC is pitiful, which means it rarely works (especially against the type of creatures they are battling.

I think maybe have moderate save dcs (something a character with a "high save" would likely pass, but a "low save" would have a 50-75% of failing), but have different options for different saves (via type of attack).


I think maybe the doctor should have some buff type things they can use, too. You know, administer certain things to give characters certain well-known benefits / spell effects (diehard, endure/resist elements, etc).

They could even use the cleric spell list, limited to certain schools/targets, with a set Heal check DC based on spell level. That could also replace the "healing" and "raise dead" abilities, since they would be able to do that just like the spell. Maybe a failed roll by more than 5 means you can't treat that person again that day.

I'm just throwing some ideas out. Perhaps the OP would like to write a revision?

BRC
2009-12-10, 11:34 AM
I think that's actually a detriment. A player doesn't want to get a new ability (maybe the Stop Heart right after they got 8d6 sneak attack.) And their save DC is pitiful, which means it rarely works (especially against the type of creatures they are battling.

I think maybe have moderate save dcs (something a character with a "high save" would likely pass, but a "low save" would have a 50-75% of failing), but have different options for different saves (via type of attack).


I think maybe the doctor should have some buff type things they can use, too. You know, administer certain things to give characters certain well-known benefits / spell effects (diehard, endure/resist elements, etc).

They could even use the cleric spell list, limited to certain schools/targets, with a set Heal check DC based on spell level. That could also replace the "healing" and "raise dead" abilities, since they would be able to do that just like the spell. Maybe a failed roll by more than 5 means you can't treat that person again that day.

I'm just throwing some ideas out. Perhaps the OP would like to write a revision?
I'm definetally going to rework the class, it's a work in progress.

I'm considering giving them an ability called Nutrient Boost (simulates the +4 to ability score system of spell, but maybe better).

Maybe something like this
Performance Enhancement: The Doctor may prepare a number of performance enhancements per day equal to their Wisdom modifier. Using a Performance Enhancement is a standard action. 2 preparations may be expended to prepare the advanced version of the enhancement.

Roids: +4 to Strength. Lasts 1 minute per Doctor level
Roid Rage: +4 to Strength, plus Target Rages as a barbarian. The target may make a DC 17 will save to avoid the second part of this affect or end the rage early.
Adrenaline Boost: +4 to dexterity, lasts 1 minute per Doctor level.
Adrenaline Surge: +4 to dexterity plus Haste (as the spell). The Hast effect lasts 1 round per doctor level.
Immune Booster: +4 to constitution, lasts 1 minute per doctor level.
Trolls Blood Boost: +4 to constitution, gains fast heal 4, lasts 1 minute per doctor level.
Brain Food: +4 to intelligence, lasts 1 minute per doctor level.
Brain Surge: +4 to intelligence, target may add their intelligence bonus to an skill check for 1 minute/level.
(idea needed): +4 to wisdom.
(name needed): +4 to wisdom, target may end the effect early to dispel any Compulsion effects on them at the time.
Cosmetic Enhancement: +4 to Charisma
(idea needed): (Idea needed)


Alright Chris. How would you set the DC's for the abilities I listed above (This isn't a snappy "Well let's see you do better" but a "I want to know what you think I should do").

ChrisFortyTwo
2009-12-10, 03:36 PM
I'm definetally going to rework the class, it's a work in progress.

I'm considering giving them an ability called Nutrient Boost (simulates the +4 to ability score system of spell, but maybe better).

Maybe something like this
Performance Enhancement: The Doctor may prepare a number of performance enhancements per day equal to their Wisdom modifier. Using a Performance Enhancement is a standard action. 2 preparations may be expended to prepare the advanced version of the enhancement.

Roids: +4 to Strength. Lasts 1 minute per Doctor level
Roid Rage: +4 to Strength, plus Target Rages as a barbarian. The target may make a DC 17 will save to avoid the second part of this affect or end the rage early.
Adrenaline Boost: +4 to dexterity, lasts 1 minute per Doctor level.
Adrenaline Surge: +4 to dexterity plus Haste (as the spell). The Hast effect lasts 1 round per doctor level.
Immune Booster: +4 to constitution, lasts 1 minute per doctor level.
Trolls Blood Boost: +4 to constitution, gains fast heal 4, lasts 1 minute per doctor level.
Brain Food: +4 to intelligence, lasts 1 minute per doctor level.
Brain Surge: +4 to intelligence, target may add their intelligence bonus to an skill check for 1 minute/level.
(idea needed): +4 to wisdom.
(name needed): +4 to wisdom, target may end the effect early to dispel any Compulsion effects on them at the time.
Cosmetic Enhancement: +4 to Charisma
(idea needed): (Idea needed)


The strength one is a little overkill...that would give someone a temporary +8 Strength AND a +4 Con. Unless they were already a Barbarian, there would be no reason NOT to do that. Perhaps instead the bonus effect could be to roll two damage dice once per round. also, I'm not sure I would use "roid / roid rage" That's got some pretty bad connotations with it, and D&D has enough groups that point fingers and call us bad. Perhaps "Power Booster/Power Hitter" (Baseball fans will like it)

As far as the wisdom one goes, perhaps Higher Senses, and the bonus is a second save against any mind-effects and possibly a reroll on spot/listen checks.

Cosmetic Enhancement II (maybe call it magnetic personality) could provide a +5 bonus to the DC of enchantment / other mind effecting spells, but the target of the spell gets a new save after the Doctor's effect wears off.

Finally, I think we can make this less "caster-like" by having a high DC heal check (20-25 for the base, +10/20 for the "bonus"). Like a rogue and magic traps, a non-Doctor can't make these checks. Also, since some sort of "medicine" is needed, the Doctor must have a medi-kit (or something similar). Maybe later, the placebo effect (I like that one, BTW) means he can do it without his supplies.



Alright Chris. How would you set the DC's for the abilities I listed above (This isn't a snappy "Well let's see you do better" but a "I want to know what you think I should do").


Hey, thanks...it's nice when people like my ideas. Also, sorry about the OP thing...for some reason, I thought you were a different person (I have been a little burnt out due to real life recently). Ok, let's go. ::Cracks knuckles::



Sense Impediment: The Doctor may trade 3d6 sneak attack to focus his strikes on the nervous system. The target must make a fort save vs DC 10+doctors Wis Modifier+number of remaining sneak attack die or become Blind or Deafened.


Probably should have a base Wisdom score requirement. Maybe wisdom should be minimally 10 + number of sneak attack dice required. This makes it very similar to the spellcasting requirements. 10+Wis is a good base. Ok, so 3d6 Sneak Attack exchanged means minimum Wis score of 13, for a +1 bonus. That means the Minimum Base DC is 11.

Now, what level creatures should be fighting you. You have 3d6. Assuming the same progression as a Rogue That's 5th level, where an opponent would have a +1 (plus ability score) to a low save, and a +4 (plus ability) to a high save. Now, we want them to fail a low save about 50-75% of the time, and fail a high save 0-25% of the time. Assuming they have a moderate ability for their low saves (+1), and a high ability for their high saves (+3), they would get a +2 or +7 bonus. It looks like we want a DC somewhere around 12 (+/-5). Random bonuses/penalties doesn't make a lot of sense, but we're in the right general vicinity, so we'll move on to create a system. I have an idea already, but I think the setup is better after this one:



Improvised Anesthesia: The Doctor may trade 3d6 Sneak attack dice to knock out a target. The target must make a fort save vs DC 10+doctors wisdom modifier+number of remaining sneak attack die or fall asleep.


Maybe the level of the spell which grants a similar effect could be the base for the d6. Sleep is a first level spell, so maybe 1d6 would be appropriate (I'm putting this here because Blindness/deafness is Lvl 3 for Clerics, so it made sense for that one - though you could reduce it to Lvl 2, the Sor/Wiz version).

Going along with this device, we can add the number of d6 used to the DC. That would put our DC for Blind/Deafness at 14, a little stronger than the 12, but we also have to hit our opponent, which can balance the difficulty (the spell itself requires a touch attack). You could even give the doctor the flexibility of exchanging more d6 for a higher dc (but no other change in effect). This is essentially just the benefit of the Heighten Spell feat for his abilities.

This also provides a good baseline for the increased d6s, and what level things become available. Perhaps even a little bonus for a dual-class Doctor/Rogue, who gets some abilities sooner than if they were simply a rogue/caster. I think that and the ability to do this without a per/day limit can make up for the smaller ability list.

Now, part of the balancing act is giving the Doctor the ability to make choices during combat. Which ability effect should I use...should I buff or debilitate/debuff. What saving throw can/should he target. Fort is the most obvious for some of these, but I think targeting very small points could have a reflex save to avoid the effect, and even some psychological impacts could be will-based. It would be kind of cool to have the save be different than the normal one for the associated spell (since you aren't just focusing magic, you are using biology). Maybe not all the time, but much of the time. A reflex save for Blindness, for instance, instead of the fort save (since the nervous system is well protected and difficult to get precisely.

I think that as far as a "ability-list" goes, you should have something new at each sneak attack level. Later on, maybe you get two or three abilities. Perhaps you start with the "Fort save" style ones at low levels, then you add Reflex ones later on, and finally Will.



Assisted Homicide: The Doctor may trade 7d6 sneak attack dice to strike the target in such a way as to stop their heart. The target must make a fortitude save vs DC 10+Doctor's wisdom modifier+number of remaining sneak attack dice or die.


Ah the save or die. I want this one to be better against the high-fort guys, since they have tons of HP, and are the ones you really need to take out. This is the doctor's chance to shine. Make this the "Will save" I was talking about....you hurt someone in such a way that looks and feels way worse than it should, so they believe they die, and because of that, and have a heart attack. Much more effective against a melee fighter, but not as effective against a caster-type (which, if you are in melee with you should be able to kill without that ability).

OK, that's all I got for now.

BRC
2009-12-10, 03:56 PM
The strength one is a little overkill...that would give someone a temporary +8 Strength AND a +4 Con. Unless they were already a Barbarian, there would be no reason NOT to do that. Perhaps instead the bonus effect could be to roll two damage dice once per round. also, I'm not sure I would use "roid / roid rage" That's got some pretty bad connotations with it, and D&D has enough groups that point fingers and call us bad. Perhaps "Power Booster/Power Hitter" (Baseball fans will like it)

As far as the wisdom one goes, perhaps Higher Senses, and the bonus is a second save against any mind-effects and possibly a reroll on spot/listen checks.

Cosmetic Enhancement II (maybe call it magnetic personality) could provide a +5 bonus to the DC of enchantment / other mind effecting spells, but the target of the spell gets a new save after the Doctor's effect wears off.

Finally, I think we can make this less "caster-like" by having a high DC heal check (20-25 for the base, +10/20 for the "bonus"). Like a rogue and magic traps, a non-Doctor can't make these checks. Also, since some sort of "medicine" is needed, the Doctor must have a medi-kit (or something similar). Maybe later, the placebo effect (I like that one, BTW) means he can do it without his supplies.



Hey, thanks...it's nice when people like my ideas. Also, sorry about the OP thing...for some reason, I thought you were a different person (I have been a little burnt out due to real life recently). Ok, let's go. ::Cracks knuckles::



Probably should have a base Wisdom score requirement. Maybe wisdom should be minimally 10 + number of sneak attack dice required. This makes it very similar to the spellcasting requirements. 10+Wis is a good base. Ok, so 3d6 Sneak Attack exchanged means minimum Wis score of 13, for a +1 bonus. That means the Minimum Base DC is 11.

Now, what level creatures should be fighting you. You have 3d6. Assuming the same progression as a Rogue That's 5th level, where an opponent would have a +1 (plus ability score) to a low save, and a +4 (plus ability) to a high save. Now, we want them to fail a low save about 50-75% of the time, and fail a high save 0-25% of the time. Assuming they have a moderate ability for their low saves (+1), and a high ability for their high saves (+3), they would get a +2 or +7 bonus. It looks like we want a DC somewhere around 12 (+/-5). Random bonuses/penalties doesn't make a lot of sense, but we're in the right general vicinity, so we'll move on to create a system. I have an idea already, but I think the setup is better after this one:



Maybe the level of the spell which grants a similar effect could be the base for the d6. Sleep is a first level spell, so maybe 1d6 would be appropriate (I'm putting this here because Blindness/deafness is Lvl 3 for Clerics, so it made sense for that one - though you could reduce it to Lvl 2, the Sor/Wiz version).

Going along with this device, we can add the number of d6 used to the DC. That would put our DC for Blind/Deafness at 14, a little stronger than the 12, but we also have to hit our opponent, which can balance the difficulty (the spell itself requires a touch attack). You could even give the doctor the flexibility of exchanging more d6 for a higher dc (but no other change in effect). This is essentially just the benefit of the Heighten Spell feat for his abilities.

This also provides a good baseline for the increased d6s, and what level things become available. Perhaps even a little bonus for a dual-class Doctor/Rogue, who gets some abilities sooner than if they were simply a rogue/caster. I think that and the ability to do this without a per/day limit can make up for the smaller ability list.

Now, part of the balancing act is giving the Doctor the ability to make choices during combat. Which ability effect should I use...should I buff or debilitate/debuff. What saving throw can/should he target. Fort is the most obvious for some of these, but I think targeting very small points could have a reflex save to avoid the effect, and even some psychological impacts could be will-based. It would be kind of cool to have the save be different than the normal one for the associated spell (since you aren't just focusing magic, you are using biology). Maybe not all the time, but much of the time. A reflex save for Blindness, for instance, instead of the fort save (since the nervous system is well protected and difficult to get precisely.

I think that as far as a "ability-list" goes, you should have something new at each sneak attack level. Later on, maybe you get two or three abilities. Perhaps you start with the "Fort save" style ones at low levels, then you add Reflex ones later on, and finally Will.



Ah the save or die. I want this one to be better against the high-fort guys, since they have tons of HP, and are the ones you really need to take out. This is the doctor's chance to shine. Make this the "Will save" I was talking about....you hurt someone in such a way that looks and feels way worse than it should, so they believe they die, and because of that, and have a heart attack. Much more effective against a melee fighter, but not as effective against a caster-type (which, if you are in melee with you should be able to kill without that ability).

OK, that's all I got for now.
Maybe for the advanced Str boost, the recipient is treated as one size category larger for the purpose of trip, bull rush, and grapple checks. Yeah, that could work. I'll give the Doctor Nutrient Boost at 7th level.
Which only leaves the other abilities. I like your idea about rogues boosting the save DC by giving up additional Sneak Attack die, and I think that could work nicely.

I agree the doctor should have abilities that target more than Fort saves, but the Save-or-die I can't imagine being anything but a Fort DC. However, however, I think we can have a few that target Will saves. Maybe one where the Doctor's attack starts inducing hallucinations, Confusing the target. Or he hits them in such a way as to wrack their body with pain. Will save to not pass out from the pain.

ChrisFortyTwo
2009-12-10, 07:46 PM
Maybe for the advanced Str boost, the recipient is treated as one size category larger for the purpose of trip, bull rush, and grapple checks. Yeah, that could work. I'll give the Doctor Nutrient Boost at 7th level.
Which only leaves the other abilities. I like your idea about rogues boosting the save DC by giving up additional Sneak Attack die, and I think that could work nicely.

So you know, you can easily break up long quotations by adding the
. I find it makes things easier to read..but of course, that's stylistic.

I love the one size category larger idea. Nutrient boost is a better name than power boost, too. I think one thing that would be good is to allow him to do all the abilities at the same time - like 4th or 6th level. Earlier than that, heal checks to give HP, and checks to provide other stuff would be good. The "extra stuff" he'd get at a higher level (say 8th). Now, I'm choosing even levels for these, because the damaging stuff is for the odd levels (with increases in sneak attack dice).


I agree the doctor should have abilities that target more than Fort saves, but the Save-or-die I can't imagine being anything but a Fort DC. However, however, I think we can have a few that target Will saves. Maybe one where the Doctor's attack starts inducing hallucinations, Confusing the target. Or he hits them in such a way as to wrack their body with pain. Will save to not pass out from the pain.

I like both of these. As I said, you'll probably want a list of at least 10 of these. You could have "Miracle Worker" at the highest level, bringing someone back from the dead.

Also, do you think other buffs would be appropriate? I mentioned Endure/Resist Elements earlier...I would think you could probably do protection from good/evil.

Another thing I thought of on the way home today - what if he got some abilities that were like metamagic on his doctoring abilities / heal check things. Increase the dc or hit die loss for some bonuses. I wouldn't make them feats, but other abilities he can get at higher levels.

Anyway, this is a great idea, and I'm glad we're fleshing it out. I'll probably use it in my home game.

BRC
2009-12-10, 08:00 PM
So you know, you can easily break up long quotations by adding the . I find it makes things easier to read..but of course, that's stylistic.

I love the one size category larger idea. Nutrient boost is a better name than power boost, too. I think one thing that would be good is to allow him to do all the abilities at the same time - like 4th or 6th level. Earlier than that, heal checks to give HP, and checks to provide other stuff would be good. The "extra stuff" he'd get at a higher level (say 8th). Now, I'm choosing even levels for these, because the damaging stuff is for the odd levels (with increases in sneak attack dice).



I like both of these. As I said, you'll probably want a list of at least 10 of these. You could have "Miracle Worker" at the highest level, bringing someone back from the dead.

Also, do you think other buffs would be appropriate? I mentioned Endure/Resist Elements earlier...I would think you could probably do protection from good/evil.

Another thing I thought of on the way home today - what if he got some abilities that were like metamagic on his doctoring abilities / heal check things. Increase the dc or hit die loss for some bonuses. I wouldn't make them feats, but other abilities he can get at higher levels.

Anyway, this is a great idea, and I'm glad we're fleshing it out. I'll probably use it in my home game.
He's already got the ability to bring dead people back to life. Read the Treatment list, he's got Treatments that simulate Raise Dead, Ressurection, and True Resurrection, each of which takes a wide variety of very expensive special medicines, maybe a bit of lightning, and some technobabble,

ChrisFortyTwo
2009-12-11, 09:29 AM
He's already got the ability to bring dead people back to life. Read the Treatment list, he's got Treatments that simulate Raise Dead, Ressurection, and True Resurrection, each of which takes a wide variety of very expensive special medicines, maybe a bit of lightning, and some technobabble,

Sorry about that, we've been going back and forth and I haven't reread the original post in a little while. Rereading your treatments, I think it would be reasonable to put in a treatment for HP recovery. I was never very fond of the "extended care" stuff in the book, perhaps it's time to supercede that with non-magical healing.

Maybe it's time to update to get a better idea of the overall look of the class, also I'd like to see where you are as far as adding and adjusting. I think the "base" class can just have a few things in the Special column (sneak attack, Special Treatments, and some of the sneak attack Swappables), with most of the details being in the supplemental description.

BRC
2009-12-11, 10:03 AM
Sorry about that, we've been going back and forth and I haven't reread the original post in a little while. Rereading your treatments, I think it would be reasonable to put in a treatment for HP recovery. I was never very fond of the "extended care" stuff in the book, perhaps it's time to supercede that with non-magical healing.

Maybe it's time to update to get a better idea of the overall look of the class, also I'd like to see where you are as far as adding and adjusting. I think the "base" class can just have a few things in the Special column (sneak attack, Special Treatments, and some of the sneak attack Swappables), with most of the details being in the supplemental description.
Read the class feature "Surgery", it's been in there since I first posted the class.

The way this class works, is they use Stem Wounds to keep their allies up in battle with temporary HP (I used temp HP because giving anybody unlimited healing per day is a bad thing), once the fight is over, they use Surgery to heal their allies wounds.

ChrisFortyTwo
2009-12-11, 07:21 PM
Read the class feature "Surgery", it's been in there since I first posted the class.

The way this class works, is they use Stem Wounds to keep their allies up in battle with temporary HP (I used temp HP because giving anybody unlimited healing per day is a bad thing), once the fight is over, they use Surgery to heal their allies wounds.

I realize it's already there, what I mean is, I think it should be one of the treatments, instead of it's own special ability. I think consolidating abilities can really help move a class from "something new at every level!" to a class that starts out with a core, and simply gets better.

BRC
2009-12-11, 10:14 PM
No, Surgery works differently (it's an open-ended check instead of against a DC), I want it to remain a separate ability.

ChrisFortyTwo
2009-12-12, 10:56 AM
It sort of works differently. The thing is, they both take half an hour, they both use a heal check, and they both "fix" someone.

Is there precedence for a skill check to simply work, with the result being the "effectiveness"? I can't remember an instance now, everything I can think of is either opposed or has a minimum DC. The closest I can think of is a craft check, where there's a minimum (say 5 or 10, but the result is how "good" it is) I mean, even if the DC is 5, providing 5 hp, and you can "bump it" to provide more, I think it would be more consistent with the skill check schema.

Anyway, I don't want this to become a dividing line. I've presented my reasoning for the change, you can accept the idea or not, and if you don't, I won't press it any more.

Sir_Chivalry
2010-01-01, 05:13 PM
Okay, I checked the rules, and this isn't thread necromancy, at least I think.

I have a question, which is what PrCs would go well with this class?

BRC
2010-01-15, 05:39 PM
Okay, I checked the rules, and this isn't thread necromancy, at least I think.

I have a question, which is what PrCs would go well with this class?
I was just checking in to update this.
The Doctor's class features are based around skill checks, so pretty much anything that gives you plenty of skill points to spend on Heal checks would work.

Vaynor
2010-01-15, 05:50 PM
I like this a lot, but I'm confused why their main source of healing takes half an hour. That seems excessive. Perhaps allow them to take a penalty and have it take a full round, otherwise take 1 minute or so? I just can't see this class being effective with their healing taking so long. Stem Wounds by itself isn't going to cut it (which, by the way, needs to include what type of action it takes).

BRC
2010-01-15, 05:58 PM
I like this a lot, but I'm confused why their main source of healing takes half an hour. That seems excessive. Perhaps allow them to take a penalty and have it take a full round, otherwise take 1 minute or so? I just can't see this class being effective with their healing taking so long. Stem Wounds by itself isn't going to cut it (which, by the way, needs to include what type of action it takes).
The idea is that they use Stem Wounds to keep their allies up during combat, and Surgery to properly heal them properly once the swords have been put away.
I might drop Surgery to just 10 minutes, or maybe 1 minute for every 5 points of damage the person has, but it's not supposed to be an in-combat ability, that's what Stem Wounds is for.

Vaynor
2010-01-15, 06:02 PM
The idea is that they use Stem Wounds to keep their allies up during combat, and Surgery to properly heal them properly once the swords have been put away.
I might drop Surgery to just 10 minutes, or maybe 1 minute for every 5 points of damage the person has, but it's not supposed to be an in-combat ability, that's what Stem Wounds is for.

Regardless, I think Stem Wounds needs some clarification. Does it use a standard action? A full round? Also, do the temporary hit points stack at all with either other instances of Stem Wounds or other forms of temporary hit points (i.e. vigor)? If they do not stack, can you reapply Stem Wounds, and, assuming a higher roll, increase the amount of temporary hit points the target has?

BRC
2010-01-15, 06:38 PM
Regardless, I think Stem Wounds needs some clarification. Does it use a standard action? A full round? Also, do the temporary hit points stack at all with either other instances of Stem Wounds or other forms of temporary hit points (i.e. vigor)? If they do not stack, can you reapply Stem Wounds, and, assuming a higher roll, increase the amount of temporary hit points the target has?
Fixed, it's a standard action, and Stem Wounds does stack with itself.

Vaynor
2010-01-15, 07:01 PM
Fixed, it's a standard action, and Stem Wounds does stack with itself.

As a no-limit ability this should definitely have a cap, otherwise I think it's pretty good now.

BRC
2010-01-15, 07:06 PM
As a no-limit ability this should definitely have a cap, otherwise I think it's pretty good now.
It does, I'm pretty sure I said the temporary hit point's can't exceed their normal max HP, if it dosn't say that, it will soon.

imp_fireball
2010-01-16, 02:31 AM
Yes! Now we can stat out Black Jack! (Cohort Pinoko?)

Now that I have that bit of nerdery out of the way, I like this class a lot. I've been working out some new ideas for the Heal skill, and this is right up my ally. These might be relevant to your interests as well.

Heal now has several subcategories, Heal (Medicine), Heal (Surgery), and Heal (Mental)(which I can get into later).

Heal (Medicine): (Wis)
You are trained in medical procedures and treatment. This skill can be used to help others recover from wounds, keep others from dying, or to treat poison and disease.
Check: Probably the same as in the PH
Action: Probably the same as in the PH
Try Again: Probably the same as in the PH, I'll definitely impose Critical Failure results (Malpractice!)

Heal (Surgery): (Wis; Armor Check Penalty; Trained Only)
You can preform surgical operations. The operation requires at least a few appropriate simple tools (knife, needle, thread, and such). Attempting a Heal (Surgery) check without a proper surgery kit imposes a -2 circumstance penalty, even if simple tools are employed. If you use a masterwork surgery kit, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on the check.
Check: Still working on it, but your DCs might be a good start.
Action: Again, I'm still working on it, but your idea is a good starting point.
Special: You apply your Dexterity mod to Heal (Surgery) checks in addition to Wisdom, even though it is technically a Wisdom-based skill.
Untrained: Surgery cannot be preformed untrained.

Skill Synergy:
Having 5 ranks in Heal (Medicine) provides a +2 skill synergy bonus to Heal (Surgery), and vice-versa.

Lastly, do you mind if I borrow and modify this class for my Breakdown setting?

Huh brilliant ideas. For StarCraft, I was simply considering making heal simply include medicine and surgery as well (enough ranks in heal and chances are you understand medicine as well as surgery... technically both apply in first aid to some extent; medicine = fast acting pain killers like morphine, surgery = removing deep splinters and shrapnel or a bullet when it needs doing right away).

Each different application would have slightly different mechanics however, but the one problem that presents itself would be how integral the one skill would become (although that's not all that bad compared to some of the widely used skills in regular D&D; spell craft for one - can't think of others).

THEN of course there's technology which reduces the armor check penalties for surgery, like a laser that can zap out a parasite in seconds (in StarCraft universe at least).

HalcyonUmbra
2010-04-03, 11:43 PM
It's a little past the thread necromancy limit, but it's also a little silly to create an entirely new thread for something like this (or so I hope.)

Anyway, there was something on the /tg/ that may give you some ideas. The general concept was a doctor/surgeon that healed entirely without magic. This is what they came up with. Note the Anatomical Strike stuff; it seems similar to some of the ideas listed earlier.

Adventuring Physician
Adventuring Physician

Some people leave their homes and delve into the dangerous for fun. Some do it for honor, for profit, or because they have to. And some do it for knowledge. The Adventuring Physician knows that he could learn immense ammounts of information from not only the various people who tread life's most dangerous path, but also from the foes they face. He aims to meet those foes, and to get to learn them in ways much more intimate than some people even dream of. While the Wizard may seek knowledge of the lost and arcane, and the Psion may seek to learn all he can of the mind, the Physician turns his scalpel to the mundane, opening weird and wondrous creatures, both to learn how to defeat them better, but also how to survive better, how to sew up his friends better.

Role: Physicians resemble Clerics in healing abilities, Wizards in knowledge, and Rogues in sheer jack-of-all-tradeness, but one of their greatest strengths is that they do not depend on magic while at the same time they are able to heal their friends wounds, simultaneously preparing them for the coming war.

Alignment: Any. Some Physicians perform autopsies for purely altruistic reasons, while some perform vivisections on living patients for the sheer joy of it. Some abide by the laws and work with the authorities, while some practice their art in the middle of the night, away from prying eyes.

Hit Die: d6

Starting Gold: 5d4 x 10

Class skills: The Adventuring Physician's class skills are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Alchemy) (Int), Decipher Script (Int; Trained Only), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Any; Taken Individually; Trained Only) (Int), Profession (Doctor) (Wis), Search (Int), Sleight of Hand (Dex; Trained Only; Armor Check penalty), Survival (Wis), Use Rope (Dex)

Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int Modifier

Medium Base attack Bonus, as Rogue and Cleric. Will is the strong save, Fortitude and Reflex are weak.

Level 1: Study, Administer, Anatomical Knowledge, Sneak Attack +1d6
Level 2: Corpuscular Training
Level 3: Intelligent Direction,
Level 4: Anatomical Strike, Health Booster
Level 5: Anatomical Knowledge, Surgery, Sneak Attack +2d6
Level 6: Supernatural Disturbance
Level 7: Poison Use
Level 8: Anatomical Knowledge, Anatomical Strike
Level 9: Concoction, Sneak Attack +3d6
Level 10: Field Guide
Level 11: Anatomical Knowledge, Keen Observation
Level 12: Anatomical Strike, Supernatural Disturbance
Level 13: Sneak Attack +4d6
Level 14: Anatomical Knowledge, Keen Observation
Level 15: Field Guide
Level 16: Anatomical Strike
Level 17: Anatomical Knowledge, Keen observation, Sneak Attack +5d6
Level 18: Panacea, Supernatural Disturbance
Level 19: Panacea
Level 20: Anatomical Strike, Field Guide, Panacea

Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Adventuring Physicists are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the scalpel (kukri). They are proficient with light armor, but not shields.


Study: Level 1
The most important skill of an Adventuring Physician is to heal, and equally important is to learn how to heal. To do so, Physicians perform autopsies on both the living and the dead, both to determine what makes the creatures tick and how to stop them from ticking. Dissection may be performed on any dead creature with discernable anatomy (Basically, any sneak attack target) ithin 24 hours after it died. Doing so takes several hours, and during the process, the Physician takes notes and studies the insides of the creature, from the skeleton to the nerves.
Each act of studying a corpse provides many benefits, including access to several class features, for the race studied. Subraces are included in the studying, creature types are not. Dissecting an Elf also provides benefits against Drow; dissecting a goblin does not provide benefits against hobgoblins. A Profession (Doctor) check must be passed to successfully study and take notes about a race, the DC of which is 10 + the HD of the monster. A failure of the Profession check requires the use of another specimin; the notes are now useless, as is the mutilated corpse.
A Physician may only have a number of races currently studied equal to his intelligence bonus.
Vivisection is another option available to the Physician, in which he dissects a creature while it is still alive. The creature must be held in some way, either through magic, strong attendants holding it down, or the use of ropes and such to keep it from squirming too much. Any creature, even a willing one, must be held this way, for any creature will attempt to escape the pain and horror of having its insides examined. The scalpel used must be able to overcome the creature's damage resistance or else it can not be vivisected. Vivisection results in the death of the creature, although a Raise Dead spell can still bring it back. Vivisections take longer than dissections, possibly 8 hours although this is left to the DM's discretion. Physicians gains a bonus equal to the Ranger's Favored Enemy ability for creatures vivisected. He may only have this vivisection bonus for one race at a time.
Writing the notes requires a paper or parchment, and ink to write with. Notes for a dissected creature may not be used to Study the creature again, although notes from a vivisected creature may be used for this purpose.

Administer: Level 1
Allows the Physician to tend to a characters wounds, resetting joints and applying salves, healing hp up to equal to his heal skill. The usage of administer requires one charge of a healer's kit and takes a full round action for both participants. The Physician may administer a number of times each day equal to his intelligence bonus.
Administer may, instead of healing damage, instead remove the following conditions: Bleeding, Blinded, Caltrops, Confused, Dazzled, Deafened, Dying, Fatigued (Once per character per day), Nauseated, Sickened, Stunned, or Unconconscious. Dying characters may also become Stable through the use of this ability. When a status condition is removed, however, no damage may be healed though one use of Administer for the day is used up, so for dying characters the standard use of the heal skill may be more appropriate.

Anatomical Knowledge: Level 1
The Physician does not keep his knowledge of his enemies to himself, and as a full round action, he can describe to his party members how best to deal with their foes, so long as he has Studied the enemies. This act requires a Profession (Doctor) check at a DC of 15. If the DC is beaten, then the bonus is +1. If the DC is beaten by 10, then the bonus is +2. If the DC is beaten by 20, then the bonus is +3. At level 17, the bonuses all double in effectiveness. The effects are cumulative.
The Physician may only give this bonus to a number of people, himself included or excluded as he wishes, up to his intelligence bonus. The effects from Anatomical Knowledge last one encounter.
At level 1, the Physician imparts an attack roll bonus as he describes where best to attack.
At level 5, he imparts a damage bonus as he describes the most effective ways to strike.
At level 8, he describes how to deal with the creature's abilities, imparting a saving throw bonus.
At level 11, he describes how best to avoid the creatures attacks, imparting a dodge armor class bonus
At level 14, he describes how to disable the enemy creature's limbs with a successful strike. Once per round, his allies may perform a Disabling attack. If the creature fails a fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 of the Physician's level + his intelligence modifier, then it becomes Disabled.
At level 17, the Physician is able to describe to his party members how to do any of the specialized Anatomical Strikes, except for Skillful Strike, that he knows. The same conditions of use apply; only one specific Anatomical Strike may be used per encounter, and an Anatomical Strike may only be performed when the conditions for sneak attack are met, though the party members do not gain any extra sneak attack damage.

Sneak Attack: Level 1
Exactly the same as the Rogue's Sneak Attack except for several ways. It may only be used with a light bladed melee weapon, it may only be used against a creature the Physician has studied, and the Physician must roll a Knowledge check the first time he sneak attacks a race has studied. The DC is 10 + the monsters HD. If it passes, the Physician does not have to reroll against that race again, unless he lost the Study status of that race and had to acquire it again. If the roll failed, then there is no sneak attack damage, and Anatomical Strikes may not be used against that race. The race must be Studied again for another attempt at sneak attacks and Anatomical Strikes.
Sneak Attack starts at 1d6 damage, and increases by 1d6 damage every four levels; level 5 is 2d6, 9 is 3d6, etc.

Corpuscular Training: Level 2
The Physician is trained to not balk at the sight of an opened cadaver, and has learned how to deal with illnesses. For diseases, poisons, and nauseating effects, the Physician can substitute his Will save instead of the Fortitude save.

Intelligent Direction: Level 3
If the Physician is level 3 or above, and has Studied the creature he is attacking, he may add his Int bonus to both his attack and his damage.

Anatomical Strike: Level 4
The Physician eventually learns anatomy so well that he may use his scalpel or another light bladed melee weapon to deliver carefully chosen, precise strikes with great effect. At every fourth level he may chose one strike from the list below. Only one strike may be used a round, it must be a full attack action, and the attack must have qualified as a sneak attack. Each specific Strike may only be used once per encounter, although a creature may be attacked with multiple Strikes. A missed attack roll does not count against these limits. The Strike's effect is on top of any sneak attack damage. Only races which have been Studied are susceptable to Anatomical Strike.
With the exception of Skillful Strike, the creature affected by these strikes may roll a fortitude save against a DC of 10 + 1/2 Physician level + Int bonus.
Artery Strike - The target receives damage equal to sneak attack dice per round, and it lasts until at least 1 hp of healing from any source is done, or a successful heal check.
Blinding Strike - Target blinded
Debilitating Strike - Target receives temporary ability damage, -2 to str and con
Draining Strike - No sneak attack damage, but opponent loses 5 BAB until healed
Intestinal Strike - Target nauseated for rounds equal to Sneak Attack dice
Nerve Strike - Target paralyzed for 1d6 rounds
Skillful Strike - Weapon Specialization (Scalpel) (Must already have Weapon Focus for Scalpel)
Tendon Strike - Enemy struck with this strike loses use of one limb until healed
Tiring Strike - Target Fatigued

Health Booster: Level 4
Allows the Physician to use the Craft (Alchemy) skill to create a homemade tablet of his own devising, filled with herbs and less than savory parts, which boosts the health of anybody who consumes it. The DC to create the Booster is equal to the Physician's level +5. He may create one Health Booster for every four levels of Physician he has. This is the maximum amount allowed to exist, not just on his person, although anybody may consume his Boosters. Each Booster provides a temporary hp bonus equal to the creator's Physician level. This temporary health lasts for one minute for every four levels of Physician. At the end of the designated time, the temporary health goes away. The Booster can be given to a dying character to get them above 0 hp, but the loss of the temporary health will return them to dying unless the get healed from another source. As well, for every four levels of the Physician, the consumer gains a +1 bonus to Fortitude saves for one day.
Multiple Health Boosters may be consumed, but this will result in a detrimental effect. The temporary hp and fortitude saves stack, but when the temporary health is lost, the consumer takes 2d6 unblockable damage and 2 permanent damage to both str and con for every Booster consumed after the first one, after the temporary health has worn off.

Surgery: level 5
This ability is what allows the Physician to claim himself as such. A healer's kit is required to perform surgery. During surgery, the patient must be restrained as if she was being vivisected, although that result is not preferable here. Unconscious characters do not struggle to escape the pain. Anaesthesia is practically unknown except for certain magical spells. Surgery heals all of a wounded character's hp and restores permanent ability score damage. The duration of the surger is one hour plus is one minute per hp healed and ten minutes per ability score point healed.
Unfortunately, surgery is a rather risky procedure, and contamination can happen quite by accident. Two separate skill checks have to be made to make sure that the procedure has gone well, a Heal check and a Concentration check, both at a DC corresponding to the amount of health healed. DC 15 as a base, plus five for every twenty health healed with surgery. A failure of one skill check means that the patient has been exposed to a disease and must deal with it with a -2 penalty to her fortitude save; a failure of both checks is catastrophic, and is a botch.
A botched procedure deals 1d10 damage for every total level of the Physician, including non-Physician levels, minus his int and dex bonuses. Unless the botch was on purpose, which some unscrupulous surgeons have been known to do, in which case the two bonuses are instead added to the damage dealt.
A period of rest while under Long-Term Care is required after a surgical procedure, lasting for 1d6 days. A patient who failed to survive the procedure may be dissected.

Anti-Supernatural Goop: Level 6
The Physician uses the mundane to reach his goals, something which makes spellcasters wary of him. In response, a level six Physician has learned how to use his skills agains spellcasters, and once a day he may create a small glob of lotion which is anathema to those who use magic. This ability may not be used by multiclass Physician/casters. The green glob of lotion smells foul, and the Physician may use a touch attack to wipe it on a spellcaster. It reacts with the mana within them as if the spellcaster developed an allergy to their own magic, and remains active upon them for 1d6 rounds.
While the lotion is affecting the spellcaster, any spellcasting attempts during that time must succeed on a Concentration check of DC 10 + the number of ranks (if any) the Physician has in Craft (Alchemy) or fail. Once the Physician reaches level 12, he can create two globs of this lotion, and the effects expand to dispelling the spell effects upon those afflicted with the lotion, starting with the weakest spell in effect first. One spell is affected per round. At level 18, he can create three globs per day, and they last twice as long, 2d6 rounds.
Each glob only lasts a single day before its anti-magic properties vanish and it just smells foul, with no effects.

Poison Use: level 7
The Physician has become so used to being around unpleasant substances that no poison holds fear for him any more. He no longer has a chance to affect himself when he uses poison for any purpose.

Concoction: Level 9
Once a day, so long as the Physician has access to an Alchemy lab he may create a non-magical liquid concoction which is equivalent to a Cleric's Cure Critical Wound spell, with two exceptions. It always heals the full amount, 32, plus the Physician's Craft (Alchemy) skill. The Physician may have a number of these concoctions in existence equal to his Physician level. The hp is recovered in quarters; the first quarter is recovered immediately, the next quarter is recovered in one minute, then ten minutes, then an hour, all from the initial imbibing time. Anybody may use a healing concoction, although it has no effect on the undead.

Field Guide: Level 10
Upon reaching level 10, the Physician is travelled enough to start writing Field Guides, one for each type of creature, such as Aberration, Outsider, etc. A Field Guide superficially resembles a spellbook. It takes one day, eight of which spent with the guide, to transpose his notes for one race into proper form for such a guide. If the Physician spends a full round action studying the guide, he may gain the benefits of Studying one of the races contained within. Every subsequent race is another full round action. A non-Physician who uses the guide gains half of the Favored Enemy benefits, after an hour of study for each race.
If there are five races for one creature type in a single Guide, then so long as the Physician has read the book for an hour he has the benefits of having Studied the entire creature type, even ones he has not yet autopsied. As well, for the specific races within the guide he has studied, he gains them as a Favored Enemy.
All the benefits of the guide last for one day. Only one guide of each type may be in existance. The bonus for Favored Enemy from the guidebook becomes +4 at level 15, and then increases again at level 20 to become +6.

Keen Observation: Level 11
Upon reaching level 11, the Physician becomes more aware of how knowledge can directly affect combat. He becomes able to observe his enemy, and once he does so for three rounds, he gains a +2 bonus to the to hit, damage, and knowledge roll of his first attack against that target within the next three rounds, regardless if it is an enemy he has Studied or not. If he does not use this bonus within three rounds of ceasing to observe the target, then the bonus is lost. The bonus expands to +4 at level 14, then it increases again to +6 at level 17.

Panacea: Level 18
This ability is the same as Concoction except for the following ways. Only one Panacea may be created per week, and only one may be in existance. However, it fully heals the person who imbibes it of all hp damage, all adverse conditions including diseases and poisons, and also removes all negative levels, drained ability scores, and has a fifty percent chance to restore permanently drained levels. Upon reaching level 19, two Panaceas may be in existence, and upon reaching level 20, three may be in existence, and it is guaranteed to restore drained levels as well. It has no effect upon the undead.

Composed by Andrew Jackson, September 2009, with assistance from anonymous at /tg/, including Hesh87.

Lix Lorn
2010-04-04, 07:39 PM
Very cool class! <3

Lord Loss
2010-04-05, 08:27 AM
Maybe you could make a Vetrenarian PRC to go with this. I'm horrible with Homebrew, But here are a few aspects I would use if I actually built it (I might end up building it...)

Prerequisites:

5 ranks in Handle Animal
10 ranks in Heal
Surgical Precision class feature, Animal Companion class feature

Class Features

HD: D6
4+ INT Bonus +

Lvl 1: Vetrinary Skill, Animal Healing,
Lvl 2:Improved Animal Companion
Lvl 3:Animalistic Understanding
Lvl 4:???
Lvl 5:???

Vetrinary Skill: Make a Knowledge (Nature) check to discover the HP and Status effects of any one animal or magical beast within 30 ft of you. DC is 10 + Animal's CR.

Animal Healing: You get a +6 Bonus on Heal checks performed on animals/ magical beasts.

Improved Animal Companion: You may select a more powerful animal companion (Not sure how powerful, need some help, here.)

Animalistic Understanding: You may see/hear/smell as though you were one animal that you have preformed a specific ritual on (takes 2 Hours) only one animal may be selected in this way at a time.

Help?

Boomguin
2010-04-20, 01:11 PM
This is great!

I'm putting together a non-magical setting, and was scratching my head over what to do about heals. This is perfect (with a few minor tweaks).

Thank you for the awesome homebrew.

thewillofbob
2012-05-20, 01:02 AM
armour proficiencies: Bow-tie, tweed jacket, fez.
Trust me, I'm the Doctor

Fitz10019
2012-05-20, 11:32 AM
I think some of these class features need clarification on whether they provoke AoOs.

What about a Doctor version of Restoration?

Ectomy -- a Doctor can perform major surgery (1 hour) to grant a patient the same benefit as a Restoration spell, but at the cost of a -4 to the patient's Constitution (temporary). The start of surgery requires the patient to be unconscious, and the doctor to apply a slashing weapon directly to the body, but the patient's affliction is 'on hold' (does not advance) during the surgery. At the end of the hour, the Doctor must make a successful check to grant the Restoration effect. The constitution penalty applies regardless of this check.

[My group faced a chaos beast this past weekend.]