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View Full Version : Are the avariel elves or eladrin in the 4th edition? Do they have a feat for wings?



realbombchu
2009-12-08, 03:26 PM
I've noticed that one of the older waves of elf imigrants to Faerun (the green elves, who split into the wood and wild elves) became the elves in 4th edition, and the two newer waves (moon and sun) remained eladrin, and since the avariel were only the third elf subrace to show up on Faerun (and still part of the first wave), I can only assume they are also elves, not eladrin.

I'll talk about the other two later, I think (the lythari and the star elves), but is there an official feat for giving an elf avariel wings? I can make a couple easily, I'm just wondering if I should bother.

Mando Knight
2009-12-08, 03:42 PM
No. There are no winged elves in 4e. They were also a rare and dying race in previous editions, so I'd expect that if they never show up, it's because of the Spellplague and the return of Abeir.

dsmiles
2009-12-08, 03:52 PM
No, I think they did away with low-level flying characters for a balance reason.

Tokiko Mima
2009-12-08, 03:56 PM
But mostly because 4e abhors giving player characters flight of any kind, especially 24/7 reliable native flight, at the lowest Heroic tier. Thus, no pixies/raptorians/awakened (flying animal)/winged halfcelestial or halfdragons either AFAIK. You gotta pound the ground.

By the way, I haven't kept up with 4e so if someone knows if one of those races has been added and it still can fly at level 1, please let me know! I might actually play 4e if it's paradigm is opened up that much.

Mando Knight
2009-12-08, 04:04 PM
Storm Sorcerers can fly a short distance after getting a critical hit (though this increases as they increase their Dex, so it can end up being more movement than an actual Move action), and some Paragon Paths allow for simple flight (but not full flight before Epic). Exalted Angel and Bahamut's Vessel are two Epic Destinies that allow for hovering flight, with the former being at all times and the latter during the ED Utility power or the duration of the capstone revival power.

hamishspence
2009-12-08, 04:08 PM
Dragonborn paragon path in PHB2- Scion of Arkhosia.

Has an at-will flight ability (must land at the end of the move) at level 12, and an overland flight ability at level 16.

So you can fly all day, but in a fight, you're confined to bouncing.

Tokiko Mima
2009-12-08, 04:19 PM
Flight is so nutty in 4e. *sigh*

It doesn't make any sense either, since the one of the first things people would do with magic is use it to let them fly. I think it's hilarious that a druid can wildshape into a bird, but they still have to walk since wildshape doesn't alter movement modes.

The Rose Dragon
2009-12-08, 04:25 PM
Flight is so nutty in 4e. *sigh*

It doesn't make any sense either, since the one of the first things people would do with magic is use it to let them fly. I think it's hilarious that a druid can wildshape into a bird, but they still have to walk since wildshape doesn't alter movement modes.

Also, fish can walk and they can't breathe underwater, if I recall.

It's not just flight, it's 4th Edition in general.

hamishspence
2009-12-08, 04:26 PM
Unless they pick the specific power that lets them fly (first flying wildshape power is the raven one, at 6th level- lasts the rest of the encounter)

Before then, bird will probably mean ostrich, or something like that.

Maybe some of the man-sized "terror birds" would fit a low level druid.

Wildshape alone doesn't change movement modes- but higher level specific powers, do.

Optimystik
2009-12-08, 04:35 PM
Flight is so nutty in 4e. *sigh*

It doesn't make any sense either, since the one of the first things people would do with magic is use it to let them fly. I think it's hilarious that a druid can wildshape into a bird, but they still have to walk since wildshape doesn't alter movement modes.

It's really quite simple - you can't fly during combat in World of Warcraft either (which 4e is based on.) Please note I'm clearly not being serious

hamishspence
2009-12-08, 04:37 PM
How did they handle Druids in Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2?

I'm guessing little or no flight capability.

Mark Hall
2009-12-08, 04:40 PM
Funnily enough, someone on RPG.net just asked for a pixie race, and I developed a flying encounter power for them. If I were running an FR game, and someone insisted on playing an avariel, I'd probably do something like this for their flying ability:

Flutter
You fly briefly, covering great distances
Encounter
Move Action/Personal
Effect: You may fly for a number of squares equal to twice your movement. You must end this movement on solid ground or you will fall.
Special: You may choose to fly at twice your movement +4 squares, but you take all the penalties for running.

For an avariel, I'd use eladrin as a base, and replace their Teleport power with this... maybe give them an elf's movement rate (7) if they don't already have it, in exchange for an attack penalty in small spaces (any time they don't have at least one square on each side, representing their claustrophobia... I'd make it so the squares could have people in them, but they'd have to avoid getting in tight spaces or corners) or a small vulnerability to fire when not bloodied (representing their wings getting damaged).

Just a note on why I designed flutter like I did. I based it off of fey step, but with the thought that flight, while great, is not as good as teleportation (which can ignore restrained and immobilized, and does not require line of effect). You might also include a racial feat (probably paragon tier) that allows them to convert all movement to flying, if they wish.

Haberdashery
2009-12-08, 04:46 PM
How did they handle Druids in Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2?

I'm guessing little or no flight capability.

They didn't allow you to wild shape into flying creatures. You could turn into a black bear, a brown bear, and a wolf. And then in the epic levels you could pick perks to transform into elementals. But no birds or flying animals whatsoever. There weren't any flying enemies in any of the Infinity Engine games, and those that technically flew either just walked or hovered towards you and you could still attack them from the ground.

hamishspence
2009-12-08, 04:48 PM
So, in one sense- 4E is one up on that- you can have flight- and quite early- you just can't have it non-stop all day. Mostly. At higher level there are some exceptions.

Tokiko Mima
2009-12-08, 05:00 PM
Well, in a sense. But in another sense, it completely shatters any suspension of disbelief. For 4e to work in this sense, you have to imagine pixies walking as their primary movement mode, and druid changing into a medium size whale shark that breaths on land and can walk as fast as a typical biped. It's almost better to restrict the choices sometimes.

Mando Knight
2009-12-08, 05:01 PM
Just a note on why I designed flutter like I did. I based it off of fey step, but with the thought that flight, while great, is not as good as teleportation (which can ignore restrained and immobilized, and does not require line of effect). You might also include a racial feat (probably paragon tier) that allows them to convert all movement to flying, if they wish.

Except that, ironically, everyone can get teleportation easily. :smallconfused:

Theodoric
2009-12-08, 05:02 PM
There are some paragon paths that have it at 16, I believe. There's the aforemented Dragonborn one, and the Avenger's got one as well, and there probably are some others. Reliable flight isn't that hard to get at higher levels, and by that time flight isn't even that important.

Garatolla
2009-12-08, 05:09 PM
no flying birds....?

Now is the time for the Kiwi to shine!

Mark Hall
2009-12-08, 05:13 PM
Except that, ironically, everyone can get teleportation easily. :smallconfused:

Yeah, I know. Teleportation isn't uncommon amongst adventurers.

hamishspence
2009-12-08, 05:15 PM
Well, in a sense. But in another sense, it completely shatters any suspension of disbelief. For 4e to work in this sense, you have to imagine pixies walking as their primary movement mode, and druid changing into a medium size whale shark that breaths on land and can walk as fast as a typical biped. It's almost better to restrict the choices sometimes.

Or simply, assume druids don't transform into anything that would not make sense.

Wardens only partially change- and among their forms is a shark form.

Druids, oddly, have a distinct lack of swimming powers.

In Primal Power it makes it clear that the things you summon are not natural animals, but spirits which take the form of animals.

The same may apply to Wild-shape- it alters appearance, but isn't a full change.

On flying birds- there are quite a few druid powers that turn you into a bird of sorts- for short periods- (tiny and physically harmless for a 6th level power, Medium for a much higher level one.)

And one paragon path for those who specialize in birds.

DSCrankshaw
2009-12-08, 05:19 PM
Or simply, assume druids don't transform into anything that would not make sense.

Wardens only partially change- and among their forms is a shark form.

Druids, oddly, have a distinct lack of swimming powers.

In Primal Power it makes it clear that the things you summon are not natural animals, but spirits which take the form of animals.

The same may apply to Wild-shape- it alters appearance, but isn't a full change.

On flying birds- there are quite a few druid powers that turn you into a bird of sorts- for short periods- (tiny and physically harmless for a 6th level power, Medium for a much higher level one.)

And one paragon path for those who specialize in birds.

The new druid article adds a fish form that swims and breathes underwater. In most cases, it'll be pretty useless, though.

Blackfang108
2009-12-08, 05:48 PM
Storm Sorcerers can fly a short distance after getting a critical hit (though this increases as they increase their Dex, so it can end up being more movement than an actual Move action), and some Paragon Paths allow for simple flight (but not full flight before Epic). Exalted Angel and Bahamut's Vessel are two Epic Destinies that allow for hovering flight, with the former being at all times and the latter during the ED Utility power or the duration of the capstone revival power.

Simple flight?

Huh?

Favored Soul (Avenger) Has full, true flight as it's level 16 feature.

EDIT: true, honest flight. None of this "overland flight" no "you must land every turn." Just flight.

Tengu_temp
2009-12-08, 05:57 PM
The easiest way to get constant flight are flying mounts - the cheapest one is even available on high Heroic levels if I recall correctly.

Tam_OConnor
2009-12-08, 06:12 PM
...I have relevant information!

RE: Baldur's Gate series and druidic shapeshifting

Available forms were wolf, black bear and brown bear. Or, if you were an Avenger kit, that plus winter wolf, salamander and sword spider. The Shapeshifter kit only got Werewolf and Great Werewolf, which were useless in BG2, but overpowered if you installed a certain mod, or took them back into BGI.

Now, the game engine did have avians flying about (eagles and seagulls), but they were untargetable (at least for weapons), and still couldn't move past areas folks couldn't walk. Easy way to ensure invincibility was to use the console (EnableCheatKeys(), CTRL+4) to polymorph folks into avians.

But then again, they also had dimension door in BGI, and got rid of it in BGII (but only for your party). I'm fairly certain it (flight) could be coded for, but it would probably, coding wise, involve just dimension dooring past unpassables instead of forcing you to move over them and causing problems.

If I remember right, giving Aerie her wings back (and thus gaining a party member with flight) was supposed to be an option, but was cut for time constraints.

Aron Times
2009-12-08, 07:00 PM
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned that at-will flight at low levels is unbalanced because it trivializes otherwise challenging encounters. This is because 4e was designed as a game first and foremost, and such an ability would be unfair for those who do not have access to it.

On the other hand, you can get a flying mount in mid-heroic. Hippogriffs, being level 5 creatures, cost the same amount as a level 5 item. You don't even need Mounted Combat to ride a hippogriff effectively, since Mounted Combat simply allows you to use the mount's special abilities.

Now, if you want full at-will flight, you can get Zephyr Boots at level 24. It grants at-will flight as long as you're wearing light or no armor.

Anyway, the idea that flight requires powerful magic is not without precedent in fantasy. None of the epic characters in the Wheel of Time can fly, though they can Travel (teleport). The only flying combatants in the series are the Seanchan Fists of Heaven, who are mounted on raken (a reptilian flying mount). Even then, they do not fight in mid-air; they are used mostly as scouts, and when they do fight, they first dismount and then fight on the ground.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-08, 07:23 PM
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned that at-will flight at low levels is unbalanced because it trivializes otherwise challenging encounters.
That it trivializes encounters is an opinion, not fact. Yes, this is the opinion held by the 4E game designers, but no, this opinion is not universal among RPG designers. There are, indeed, several RPGs that do not consider it at all problematic for a novice character to have full flight.

Note that even at epic levels, getting an ability that allows you to fly more than five minutes per day is exceedingly rare, even though balance shouldn't be much of a concern in epic levels. It seems that the game designers didn't really want to deal with rules for aerial combat.

Note that "flying for one move action" is more properly named "jumping". Note also that flying mounts have the disadvantage that the common ability of forced movement can send you plummeting to the ground for massive damage.

KillianHawkeye
2009-12-08, 08:10 PM
balance shouldn't be much of a concern in epic levels.

This may have been true in 3E, but there's actually no reason not to continue to make the game balanced at all levels of play. That's actually something that 4E is focused on doing. I'm just pointing it out because your statement is more of an opinion than a fact. :smallwink:

Kurald Galain
2009-12-08, 08:15 PM
This may have been true in 3E, but there's actually no reason not to continue to make the game balanced at all levels of play. That's actually something that 4E is focused on doing.

They may be trying, but browse over the charop boards and you'll see it isn't working too well.

Thajocoth
2009-12-08, 08:26 PM
Elf types in 4th ed:

Eladrin refers to High Elves, Gold Elves, Sun Elves, Silver Elves and Moon Elves.

Elves consist of Wood Elves, Wild Elves and Copper Elves.

Drow refers to Dark Elves. (Which I think used to be the same.)

Half-Elves are half-Human and half-Elf.

Winged elves of any kind are no longer existent.

Gralamin
2009-12-08, 08:33 PM
Elf types in 4th ed:

Eladrin refers to High Elves, Gold Elves, Sun Elves, Silver Elves and Moon Elves.

Elves consist of Wood Elves, Wild Elves and Copper Elves.

Drow refers to Dark Elves. (Which I think used to be the same.)

Half-Elves are half-Human and half-Elf.

Winged elves of any kind are no longer existent.

Moon, Sun, Wild, Wood, and Dusk Elves are all subraces of Elves, that require a feat to become. None of them are Eladrin.

KillianHawkeye
2009-12-08, 08:53 PM
They may be trying, but browse over the charop boards and you'll see it isn't working too well.

Eh, I don't go to the wizards site any more ever since their forums started looking like crap. And I'm not actively playing 4E right now, anyway.

Mando Knight
2009-12-08, 08:55 PM
Moon, Sun, Wild, Wood, and Dusk Elves are all subraces of Elves, that require a feat to become. None of them are Eladrin.

Sun and Moon elves are subraces of Eladrin.

Asbestos
2009-12-08, 10:56 PM
They may be trying, but browse over the charop boards and you'll see it isn't working too well.

Oh whatever, its no where near as absurd as 3.x and I mean, are you saying that the last major errata hasn't helped balance things out? That perhaps they aren't trying to balance things?

Asbestos
2009-12-08, 10:58 PM
Moon, Sun, Wild, Wood, and Dusk Elves are all subraces of Elves, that require a feat to become be mechanically recognized as such. None of them Moon and Sun are Eladrin.

And there we go :smallwink:

Kurald Galain
2009-12-09, 03:05 AM
Oh whatever, its no where near as absurd as 3.x and I mean, are you saying that the last major errata hasn't helped balance things out? That perhaps they aren't trying to balance things?

No, I'm saying that either flight is still considered mostly overpowered for epic level (given how hard it is to get for more than 5 minutes per day), or it is discouraged for other reasons than balance.

Mystral
2009-12-09, 07:29 AM
On flying PC's in general:

I'm playing an air mephling bard in a 4e-game. We homebrewed that race with a overland fly speed of 4 and an encounter power that converts that fly speed into hover 4 for one turn. Works like a charm, especially if you try not to abuse it to much. In a combat, especially in a dungeon, it's more effective for a bard to stay close to his group.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-09, 09:21 AM
My 2cents;

Flight is pretty difficult to get, especially as mounts dislike being indoors. There are ways to get it, of course, though they tend to be higher up, and/or limited.

As for the Avariel, personally I'd say if you were a player in my campaign that having wings for free is no problem, long as they are vestigal ones.
That opens up two possibilities;

Firstly, you could follow a class that has flight-granting powers, and simply consider them to be your own wings slowly starting to build up the required muscles.

Secondly, you could perhaps ask your DM real nice, and maybe he'd write you up a racial Paragon Path to get them flapping around nice and proper, probably taking something like scion of arkhosia as the guide. I recently did pretty much this for a player who was desperate for her Changeling to be able to take the movement modes associated with the various forms she might need. (She ended up with the ability to take several different movement modes as an action or two, eventually up to several times a day, rather than getting one all-day at will as the Scion got.)

Thirdly, you could always try out some kind of homebrew version of the avariel, I guess, instead. I did scratch up a Dragonwrought Kobold homebrew (but fixing the wings on as part of the concept rather than an option), that had a slowly developing flight ability as it leveled and took various feats. Not that it's been tested or anything. Mostly just for my own amusement.

Basically, Flight can be a problem, but if your dm doesn't think so, there are many options available to you. :)

realbombchu
2009-12-09, 11:08 AM
Wow, thanks for all the input everyone! I'm a little surprised, because I was only away for 12 hours or so, and I didn't expect this topic to really take off. I would, of course, be willing to play an avariel with either no wings or broken/vestigial wings, because it's not the wings that attract me to the concept.

If I were to insist on wings, however, I would have to be very careful, because balance is important to me, too. I would probably start with the elf race, because the eladrin who have been in the world the longest became elves, and the avariel qualify under that, I think. Also, elves make better clerics than eladrin, and cleric used to be the avariel favored class, if I remember right.

I think I'm going to make a feat to give them limited flight (almost identical to what a windsoul genasi gets at first level) in exchange for the elven accuracy power, and of course, the feat slot used to make the trade. This will basically mean that they have one less feat, and 8 squares of flight as a racial encounter power. This could be used to show that they are still learning to fly, as someone already suggested.

After that, I'll either make a racial paragon path, or I will take a page out of the warforged book and make power swap feats at paragon and epic tier, which will replace a utility power with one focused on flight. It could work, I think. Thoughts?

hamishspence
2009-12-09, 11:13 AM
Makes a lot of sense.

Racial Paragon Path drawn from the Avenger one that grants unlimited flight, or the Dragonborn racial path that grants unlimited overland flight only, might be good places to start.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-09, 11:14 AM
Strictly personally, my thoughts are as follows; If the Air-soul Genasi are fine with their flying racial, and you'd rather the avariel not have both, I'd offer the swap without needing a feat. If charging a feat, I'd maybe let them have both, (Possibly making the Avariel version of the genasi racial power less good, taking a point of speed or so away in exchange?)

But in general, yeah. Seems to be a perfectly reasonable direction to me. DM's allowing, obviously.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-09, 11:34 AM
Just to throw an idea out there, a heroic character with permanent flight would not be overpowered in most campaigns, just different. Of course, the character should have a proportionate disadvantage, such as lower speed and getting no other racial tweaks.

Compare that e.g. elves get +1 speed and lowlight vision and free weapon profs and group awareness and wild step, in addition to Elven Accuracy (which is one of the more powerful racial powers). Trading all that for flight doesn't strike me as such an overpowering deal.

On the one hand, the character may fly upwards to remain out of melee reach. On the other hand, he takes a big risk whenever he does this, because if he's hit by any attack that prones, stuns, grabs or immobilizes him, he's going to hurt. Note that per the flying rules, you must move two squares per turn, or you'll fall. If it bothers you, give him a substantial penalty to non-melee attacks while flying, because it's hard to aim.

On the other hand, he can bypass certain land-based obstacles, but in a party-based game that doesn't usually help because the rest of the party still has to cross. We'll assume that you can't carry other people while flying (because, you know, it's heavy) and that scouting on your own is not exactly good for your health.

Asbestos
2009-12-09, 11:37 AM
No, I'm saying that either flight is still considered mostly overpowered for epic level (given how hard it is to get for more than 5 minutes per day), or it is discouraged for other reasons than balance.

Maybe in your other posts this is what you're saying but when someone says "They are trying to make 4e balanced at all levels of play" and you respond with "They suck at doing that, check CharOp for examples" (paraphrasing, obviously) then you are making a statement about balance in general and not flight in particular.

Anyway, my thoughts on why easy in combat flight is avoided:
Makes mapping with squares and dungeon tiles difficult (not too likely, IMO, but the cynics might go with this)
Raises the bar on encounters: Fights against melée heavy non-flyers are trivial. Either all monsters are artillery, have flight, or encounters occur in low ceiling areas in order to compensate. I'm curious how many monsters this would effect in paragon or epic tiers. I think that 4e Big T is unaffected because he can drag PCs out of the air, IIRC.
Raising the bar for PCs: This is related to the above, if combat flight is a significant advantage or if all combats now involve monsters shooting at the PCs from 50ft up then either every class/race needs flight available to them somehow or certain races/classes will be invalidated. Now, it is unfeasible (I think) for a martial, non-dragonborn character to ever gain flight through class or racial PPs, EDs, feats or powers. Everyone else could probably gain it via those means (though this may lead to must-have powers, PPs, etc)
Anyway, the martial non-winged PCs either need to MC into a class that has flight, become a ritual caster to nab some sort of 'overland flight +' ritual, spend money on flight granting consumables, or spend money/item slots on flight granting magical equipment.
Unforseen consequences: Flight opens up a lot of options and potential exploits/power discrepencies between characters with or without it. Disallowing it may be just plain easier than trying to account for every possibly unbalancing problem.

On Teleportation: It certainly makes for more mobile characters, but thanks to needing to land on the ground after the port, many potential complications are avoided.

Mando Knight
2009-12-09, 12:00 PM
Makes mapping with squares and dungeon tiles difficult (not too likely, IMO, but the cynics might go with this)

Actually, this is a fair point. Three-dimensional combat is much harder to balance than 2D combat, and since most combat is on the ground anyway, WotC didn't want to focus on making the ground combat rules more complex for the sake of adding in aerial combat rules that probably would be neglected except when abused. Teleportation is easier for them to handle even though it's freer movement, as the characters have to land at the end unless they've got a source of flight. The 30+ solos with both flight and teleport tend to only have around a 5 teleport speed but a flight speed of 10 or higher, reflecting the inherent advantage of teleportation combined with flight (especially hovering flight).

Now, taking this into account, I'd like to propose that for balance purposes (not forcing everyone to take flight, so that combat is more generally on a single surface) you could make it a multiclass like Spiked Chain or Spellscarred. For example:

Winged One (Multiclass Winged One)
Requirements: Con 13, Dex 13
Benefit: You gain a fly (clumsy) speed equal to your land speed, and an Overland Flight speed equal to your flight speed+2.

Paragon feat:
Aerial combatant
Requirement: Winged One
Benefit: You are no longer clumsy while flying, and you can hover.

Epic feat:
Master of the air
Requirement: Winged One, Aerial Combatant
Benefit: Gain a +2 bonus to your flight speed.

AllisterH
2009-12-09, 12:15 PM
This may sound silly, but most Western fantasy fiction has Flight (especially all day) being actually harder than teleportation. All day flight is more akin to superheroics than actual magic if you read a lot of fantasy fiction.

4e does allow for flight but it wants people to actually use things like hippogriffs which I like.

The iconic image of riding a giant eagle/hippogriff (a la Gandalf) never worked well in D&D because I think the FLY spell was available so early and it was so much better.

It's weird...but this is one area of 4e which actually hewes closer to the fantasy motif by treating 4e as a game first.

Inyssius Tor
2009-12-09, 01:51 PM
Just a note on why I designed flutter like I did. I based it off of fey step, but with the thought that flight, while great, is not as good as teleportation (which can ignore restrained and immobilized, and does not require line of effect). You might also include a racial feat (probably paragon tier) that allows them to convert all movement to flying, if they wish.

Speed seven, fly 14 as a move-action encounter power? Isn't that waaaaaay better than the windsoul genasi?

Asbestos
2009-12-09, 01:56 PM
On flying PC's in general:

I'm playing an air mephling bard in a 4e-game. We homebrewed that race with a overland fly speed of 4 and an encounter power that converts that fly speed into hover 4 for one turn. Works like a charm, especially if you try not to abuse it to much. In a combat, especially in a dungeon, it's more effective for a bard to stay close to his group.

This works well enough for you and your group because, as you said, you aren't trying to abuse it and in general bards are going to stick close to the group. But say we tack straight up Fly 5 on a ranger or seeker, I feel like that could be rather game changing.

Asbestos
2009-12-09, 02:07 PM
This may sound silly, but most Western fantasy fiction has Flight (especially all day) being actually harder than teleportation. All day flight is more akin to superheroics than actual magic if you read a lot of fantasy fiction.

4e does allow for flight but it wants people to actually use things like hippogriffs which I like.

The iconic image of riding a giant eagle/hippogriff (a la Gandalf) never worked well in D&D because I think the FLY spell was available so early and it was so much better.

It's weird...but this is one area of 4e which actually hewes closer to the fantasy motif by treating 4e as a game first.
That is true, generally when I've read about individuals flying in myth or fiction they're either riding on something (winged horse, chariot, broom) or have actually transformed into an animal capable of flight (Zeus becoming an eagle, Loki as a hawk or fly)

Inyssius Tor
2009-12-09, 02:12 PM
Well, in a sense. But in another sense, it completely shatters any suspension of disbelief. For 4e to work in this sense, you have to imagine pixies walking as their primary movement mode,

Er, why?

I mean, I'm probably reading that wrong, but it sounds like you're saying the logical equivalent of, "For 3.5 to work in this sense, you have to imagine that houseflies are all the size of halflings" ... because there are no Fine PC races.


and druid changing into a medium size whale shark that breaths on land and can walk as fast as a typical biped.

Only if you let him! If you let him turn into anything, he could turn into a Medium tarrasque or animate hat monster, for crying out loud. That would be silly.

But the freedom to have your beast form be something cool the designers hadn't imagined beforehand is nice, so they basically abstracted the beast's appearance into the narrative part of the game and restricted the actual game-changing abilities (swim speed/water breathing, flight, drastic size change, etc.) so the druid's wild shape ability wouldn't give him this nigh-unlimited suite of extra powers whenever he wanted them. I, for one, think that has way more interesting possibilities than giving you a choice of "monkey, giant spider, bear, snake, lizard, dog" at level 1 and adding new possible forms by level thereafter.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-09, 02:20 PM
(Zeus becoming an eagle, Loki as a hawk or fly)
On the other hand, also common in fiction are flying faeries, winged people like angels, ElfQuest gliders, and heroes like Daedalus (but not his son), his Nordic counterpart Wayland, Cuchulainn (who can't technically fly but can jump far enough that he might as well be) and of course Peter Pan.

As I recall, one of Loki's epiphets is "Sky Walker".

I'm not really seeing how western fiction (or indeed, myth) has flight being harder than teleportation, since I can think of many characters who can fly, but only a handful that can actually teleport - and all of the latter are powerful sorcerers.

Asbestos
2009-12-09, 02:32 PM
On the other hand, also common in fiction are flying faeries, winged people like angels, ElfQuest gliders, and heroes like Daedalus (but not his son), his Nordic counterpart Wayland, Cuchulainn (who can't technically fly but can jump far enough that he might as well be) and of course Peter Pan.

As I recall, one of Loki's epiphets is "Sky Walker".

I'm not really seeing how western fiction (or indeed, myth) has flight being harder than teleportation, since I can think of many characters who can fly, but only a handful that can actually teleport - and all of the latter are powerful sorcerers.
Well, angels and fey can still fly just fine in 4e. And as for Deadalus and Wayland, neither of them had what we would consider 'free flight' as they need to use their arms in order to stay in the air. At best they have overland flight. As for Loki he is never shown to be strolling through the clouds but instead transforms into flying creatures. Peter Pan may just be the rare exception to the rule.

Mark Hall
2009-12-09, 03:33 PM
Well, angels and fey can still fly just fine in 4e. And as for Deadalus and Wayland, neither of them had what we would consider 'free flight' as they need to use their arms in order to stay in the air. At best they have overland flight. As for Loki he is never shown to be strolling through the clouds but instead transforms into flying creatures. Peter Pan may just be the rare exception to the rule.

Of course, Peter Pan comes from a very different era than Daedalus or Wayland.

Mando Knight
2009-12-09, 03:49 PM
Only if you let him! If you let him turn into anything, he could turn into a Medium tarrasque or animate hat monster, for crying out loud. That would be silly.

So you can't turn into a bear-shark?

Mercenary Pen
2009-12-09, 04:28 PM
So you can't turn into a bear-shark?

Nope, not even a Porcupine/Sabre-toothed Tiger/Dolphin.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-09, 07:02 PM
Nope, not even a Porcupine/Sabre-toothed Tiger/Dolphin.

Dolphin is fine, as long as your athletics is okay.

I mean, c'mon, they're mamals. *shrug*

I suppose if there is a fish-form power in a dragon issue, then there's your bear-shark, too.

AllisterH
2009-12-09, 08:25 PM
On the other hand, also common in fiction are flying faeries, winged people like angels, ElfQuest gliders, and heroes like Daedalus (but not his son), his Nordic counterpart Wayland, Cuchulainn (who can't technically fly but can jump far enough that he might as well be) and of course Peter Pan.

As I recall, one of Loki's epiphets is "Sky Walker".

I'm not really seeing how western fiction (or indeed, myth) has flight being harder than teleportation, since I can think of many characters who can fly, but only a handful that can actually teleport - and all of the latter are powerful sorcerers.

But Daedalus uses a device (similar to how Harry Potter uses a broom). As well, in 4e, Angels can FLY and there are other creatures that have no problem flying as well.

I see a big difference between flight via devices and animals (which is quite possible in 4e starting from mid heroic tier) and the flight you see in superheroics (really, it's weird, but I've noticed that flight is actually more common in manga/anime that depicts WESTERN fantasy than even Eastern fantasy fiction ---influence of D&D I think....).

PCs can't fly and similarly, in fantasy fiction, flight is not common among the protoganists. As mentioned, Peter pan is the only one I can think of...

re: Teleportation
I've seen teleportation/portals more common in fantasy fiction. Conan has portals, Vlat Tepes has portals, hell, even Fahrd and the Grey Mouser's world has portalling.

Now, teleportation a la Nightcrawler is certainly not common (and again, I don't know of ANY fantasy fiction where the protoganist actually HAS that power), but the act of moving from one place to another WITHOUT moving in between is certainly not unknown.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-09, 08:38 PM
But Daedalus uses a device (similar to how Harry Potter uses a broom). As well, in 4e, Angels can FLY and there are other creatures that have no problem flying as well.

I see a big difference between flight via devices and animals (which is quite possible in 4e starting from mid heroic tier) and the flight you see in superheroics (really, it's weird, but I've noticed that flight is actually more common in manga/anime that depicts WESTERN fantasy than even Eastern fantasy fiction ---influence of D&D I think....).

PCs can't fly and similarly, in fantasy fiction, flight is not common among the protoganists. As mentioned, Peter pan is the only one I can think of...

re: Teleportation
I've seen teleportation/portals more common in fantasy fiction. Conan has portals, Vlat Tepes has portals, hell, even Fahrd and the Grey Mouser's world has portalling.

Now, teleportation a la Nightcrawler is certainly not common (and again, I don't know of ANY fantasy fiction where the protoganist actually HAS that power), but the act of moving from one place to another WITHOUT moving in between is certainly not unknown.

Technically Pan also flies via item. It'd be, in 4e terms a wondrous item, and a consumable, and pretty damn rare. You pretty much have to be the King of Neverland to get a steady supply of Pixie Dust.

Also, apparently, at one point Pan was going to be a bad guy, so yeah, complicated. :smallwink:
He's certainly not one of the main protagonists, though. That's the non-neverland kids, really.

Mando Knight
2009-12-09, 09:20 PM
re: Teleportation
I've seen teleportation/portals more common in fantasy fiction. Conan has portals, Vlat Tepes has portals, hell, even Fahrd and the Grey Mouser's world has portalling.

Those are portals, not tactical teleportation. Arcane gates to other realms are quite common, but 4e is peculiar in that many characters have access to a variety of tactical teleportation powers even in the Heroic tier, especially compared to the single class that has easy access to a variety of tactical flight abilities.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-10, 03:07 AM
But Daedalus uses a device (similar to how Harry Potter uses a broom).
It's a good point that many creatures in myth use items to fly. Nevertheless, flight remains more common in myth than it is in 4E, in that such items in 4E tend to work for only five minutes per day.

If we're looking at flying protagonists in modern fiction, I could mention Aroree and Voll from ElfQuest, Kestrel from Bardic Voices, various winged crittes from Xanth, Arthur Dent from HHGTG, and Tails from Sonic. This is not counting superheroes. ElfQuest also has a rare example of flight through massively overpowered telekinesis (i.e. Rayek).

(edit) also, I have found at least two sources of Loki actually walking through the air without bird-morph, although in one of those he's using magic shoes to do so, similar to Hermes.


I've seen teleportation/portals more common in fantasy fiction. Conan has portals, Vlat Tepes has portals, hell, even Fahrd and the Grey Mouser's world has portalling.
Yes, but as mentioned, portals are a different thing from personal translocation. I can think of a handful examples of the latter (mostly in the Krondor series) but overall it is the remit of (1) very powerful magicians, or (2) Nightcrawler. Creating portals is almost without exception also done by very powerful magicians.

So on the one hand, we have flight (common in fiction, hard to achieve in 4E and starting roughly at mid-paragon) and on the other we have "blinking" (rare in fiction, easy to achieve in 4E starting from level one). Then there's invisibility, which is very common in fiction as well, and pretty much impossible for more than a few seconds at a time in 4E. Oh yeah, and breathing fire: rare for protagonists in fiction, easy in 4E. So whatever things WOTC are doing, perpetuating cliches is not one of them.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-10, 09:07 AM
Did you just cite Miles "Tails" Prower as an example of flight in modern fiction, Kurald?

Really? :smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2009-12-10, 10:13 AM
Really? :smallbiggrin:

Hey, don't dis the Fox :smalltongue:

CarpeGuitarrem
2009-12-10, 10:32 AM
As a note on flight, just because a race doesn't have at-will flight doesn't mean they have to walk everywhere, especially not in the case of a pixie. They just have to stay five feet or closer to the ground (ground-level 5-foot cube). Windsoul Genasi in 4E are said to be constantly hovering, almost, above the ground, for example.

And amongst actual mythology, I don't see much precedent for lower-level characters having the ability to fly at-will. Name me one prominent (and I don't mean some obscure fantasy author, because fantasy is a dime a dozen these days) mythological/fantasy character who rates at Level 1-10, for example, who has flight ability.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-10, 10:50 AM
Name me one prominent (and I don't mean some obscure fantasy author, because fantasy is a dime a dozen these days) mythological/fantasy character who rates at Level 1-10, for example, who has flight ability.

Tinkerbell.
Aroree.
Kestrel.
Arthur Dent.
Tails :smallbiggrin:

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-10, 11:19 AM
Tinkerbell.
Aroree.
Kestrel.
Arthur Dent.
Tails :smallbiggrin:

Tinkerbell isn't a pc, though. :) She's practically wildlife, barely more sentient than a Crow. Bless her.

The rest I have little to add in reguards, as most of those I've never heard of.
Arthur Dent doesn't really fly at will as occaisionally forget to hit the ground when falling, though. That's not flight, that's cosmically absent-mindedness. :smallwink:

Kurald Galain
2009-12-10, 11:36 AM
Tinkerbell isn't a pc, though. :) She's practically wildlife, barely more sentient than a Crow. Bless her.
Julia Roberts wants a word with you.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-10, 11:44 AM
Julia Roberts wants a word with you.

Well, let me preface it by pointing out that Crows are scarily intelligent, but, yeah. :)


"Tink was not all bad: or, rather, she was all bad just now, but, on the other hand, sometimes she was all good. Fairies have to be one thing or the other, because being so small they unfortunately have room for one feeling only at a time. They are, however, allowed to change, only it must be a complete change."
— J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)

It's not Tink's fault that she's a bit simple, she's just too small. :) Ms Roberts did make an endeering Tinkerbell, though. Still. In reguards to the Book, at least, point stands. In the original, she's even got a small-animal style short lifespan.

realbombchu
2009-12-10, 12:02 PM
As much as I'm enjoying the Miles "Tails" Prower and Tinkerbell (Navi, anyone?) talk (and I really am), can I drag this back to the original topic, at least for a little while?

I've been thinking, and I've forgotten who said so, but the idea that the avariel could trade Elven Accuracy for Wings without using a feat seems valid. I mean, feats are some of the most valuable features in the game. I thought about taking their bow proficiency, too, but I don't see a reason to. Even though flight is much more restricted in the 4th edition, flight still loses some of its value as you go up in level, and Elven Accuracy is one of the better racial powers (as someone also said).

On top of that, the windwalker power is just one of the Genasi racial powers, and they even can pull off a dual manifestation at higher levels, so I think what's basically a racial power swap is fair. Maybe some racial utility powers are also in order? I'm still considering a paragon path. I'll write up what I've settled on soon. Thanks for the awesome conversation so far everyone!

Kurald Galain
2009-12-10, 12:09 PM
AMaybe some racial utility powers are also in order?

Fell Swoop (feat)
Prerequisite: flight. You may exchange any encounter power of 13th level or higher for the Fell Swoop power.

Fell Swoop
You grab an enemy of the ground, fly off, then throw him back down.
Standard action, melee.
Special: Before the attack, you may fly 3 squares. After the attack, you may also fly 3 squares. In both cases, you do not provoke opportunity attacks from the target of this attack.
Attack: Str +2, Dex +2 or Con +2 vs. Reflex. At epic level, the bonus increases to +4.
Hit: 2d10 + Str, Dex or Con modifier damage, slide the target 3 squares, and it falls prone.

satorian
2009-12-10, 12:26 PM
Maybe it's just my leftover 2e mentality, but shouldn't any flier of sufficient strength just be able to do that? That's like having a feat for walking in a straight line, picking up a child, continuing to walk, and then putting down the child (for a person of less than average strength).

Artanis
2009-12-10, 01:17 PM
But you aren't walking in a straight line and picking somebody up. You are:

--Flying 30 feet in less than six seconds and grabbing an armed and murderously angry combatant as you speed along.
--Turning in any direction upon picking up that combatant.
--Throwing the combatant up to 15 feet, not necessarily in the same direction you're flying either before or after the grab/turn.
--Doing all of this without provoking an AO from the target.

With this in mind, "sufficiently strong" would have to be REALLY damned strong.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-10, 01:41 PM
Maybe it's just my leftover 2e mentality, but shouldn't any flier of sufficient strength just be able to do that? That's like having a feat for walking in a straight line, picking up a child, continuing to walk, and then putting down the child (for a person of less than average strength).

Ignoring the extra difficulties of doing this whilst flying, in combat that would be a grab attack, followed by checks to actually move them, rather than simply *woosh* *plonk!*