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Doomboy911
2009-12-09, 08:45 AM
I've heard from my friend who took up the druid that one can change their race or something to a monster type like how he's going to take levels in being a vampire.Now what monster can a person take levels in? Because the prospect of making my bard more useful is tempting maybe make him part werewolf to complete the collection.So what monsters are available for ranks in?

Ponce
2009-12-09, 08:50 AM
Uhh...

Well, there's the Savage Species 3.0 book which turns various high HD/LA monsters into classes so you can start with them at level 1. But in order to take levels in, say, the minotaur class, you have to start off being a minotaur. You can't be a human or an elf and then just start taking levels in the minotaur racial class.

Things like vampire are special because they are an acquired template. You can become a vampire by contracting vampirism from an existing vampire. Again, this can be found in Savage Species (at least I think so) or in the case of Vampires and several other undead, in Libris Mortis.

Cyclocone
2009-12-09, 08:50 AM
So what monsters are available for ranks in?

Potentially all of them, as long as you can work out their Savage Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a).

Duke of URL
2009-12-09, 08:52 AM
Most monster "classes" (as well as any inherited template) require you to actually be that type of monster to begin with. You can generally take a racial hit die in lieu of a class level, but this only helps certain monsters and may also increase your level adjustment.

Acquired templates (such as vampire) can be taken/inflicted on any eligible creature. This almost always involved a level adjustment increase, which means that the character will not be leveling for a while.

A vampire, specifically, is a LA +8 template, which increases the effective character level by 8. Such a character would be massively overpowered in a group with equal class levels, but would not gain a class level for 8 levels, and would also gain experience more slowly than the other characters. Homebrew methods can be used to turn that LA +8 into an 8-level "monster class" where each level of the "monster class" taken provides some of the template's abilities.

kamikasei
2009-12-09, 08:54 AM
Well,

You can take on the form of a monster by various means: a druid's wild shape ability, a caster's polymorph spell. I don't think that's what you're talking about though.

It sounds like you mean acquired templates (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#templates), like becoming a vampire, or lycanthrope, or lich. And the general advice is to avoid them like the plague, because the abilities they grant are generally not nearly as good as just having that many more levels in your class. The thing is that, if for example you become a vampire, you suddenly count as being eight levels higher, which means you're too powerful compared with your allies (and won't advance until they're fighting enemies eight levels tougher than they are now), while once you're at the proper level you're actually weaker than you should be.

Your DM may be willing to give you a template "for free", though, if you're currently significantly weaker than the rest of the party.

BooNL
2009-12-09, 09:17 AM
Actually Kamikasei, I think you're wrong for once. :smalltongue:

Doomboy, I believe your friend is talking about the undead monster progression in Libris Mortis (aka The Book of Bad Latin). On page 34 there are rules where you can enter an undead "class" when you get infected/slain/toilet rolled up.
Basically, you exchange the last level you were in for the first level of the monster class and then progress further, essentially becoming a more powerful version of the monster as you gain experience.
A fighter 5 becoming a Ghoul would turn into a fighter 4/ghoul 1 for example

MightyIgoo
2009-12-09, 09:35 AM
my friend who took up the druid that one can change their race or something to a monster type like how he's going to take levels in being a vampire.

And let's not forget that your friend new vampirism is kinda in direct opposition to the whole druidic mission. Vampires being undead abominations against the natural order, and all. But hey! Pathos for everyone!

Optimystik
2009-12-09, 09:41 AM
Potentially all of them, as long as you can work out their Savage Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a).

"Drow characters are popular choices for players who like to play evil characters, as well as for those who enjoy scimitar-wielding, misunderstood outcasts."

I think... I just threw up in my mouth a little...

hamishspence
2009-12-09, 09:51 AM
And let's not forget that your friend new vampirism is kinda in direct opposition to the whole druidic mission. Vampires being undead abominations against the natural order, and all. But hey! Pathos for everyone!

There are lich druids out there (one in Champions of Ruin) so vampire druids aren't any more of a stretch.

Optimystik
2009-12-09, 09:56 AM
There are lich druids out there (one in Champions of Ruin) so vampire druids aren't any more of a stretch.

*Continues vomiting*

hamishspence
2009-12-09, 10:01 AM
Ironically, he's the closest thing Faerun has to a normal "draws his power from nature" druid-

according to the FRCS, druids have to worship a nature deity to get any powers.

This one has figured out how to do it the PHB way. And is teaching other members of his organization how.

Talya
2009-12-09, 10:03 AM
Ironically, he's the closest thing Faerun has to a normal "draws his power from nature" druid-

according to the FRCS, druids have to worship a nature deity to get any powers.

This one has figured out how to do it the PHB way. And is teaching other members of his organization how.

In FR, nature-deities are nature. They aren't really separable in that way.

awa
2009-12-09, 10:04 AM
the were wolf is bad news for your standard bard its got level adjustment and animal hit dice so your ability to do bard stuff is going to be shot to hell and as for a vampire druid keep in mind according to the rules a "vampire class" would have 8 levels but none of those levels would give you hit dice, or improve our casting, or improve your base attack bonus he would be badly weakened.

Cyclocone
2009-12-09, 10:08 AM
"Drow characters are popular choices for players who like to play evil characters, as well as for those who enjoy scimitar-wielding, misunderstood outcasts."

I think... I just threw up in my mouth a little...

I.. I did not notice that.. Why would he write something like that?:smalleek:
I mean, it would be fine if he was just playing it for laughs. But since its SKR, I somehow doubt it.

Oh, and BTW, Book of Bad Latin has Corrupt Wildshape, for all those sparkly vampires who also want to be werewolves.

kamikasei
2009-12-09, 10:13 AM
I.. I did not notice that.. Why would he write something like that?:smalleek:
I mean, it would be fine if he was just playing it for laughs. But since its SKR, I somehow doubt it.

You'll notice that it's descriptive, not prescriptive. He's saying that they are a popular choice, not that they should be considered a good choice. Just to extend the benefit of the doubt a little...

Optimystik
2009-12-09, 10:17 AM
In FR, nature-deities are nature. They aren't really separable in that way.

Evidently, they are. Either that, or he's a Planar Shepherd attuned to Greyhawk and does the whole "walk around in a bubble of my home plane" thing.

Starscream
2009-12-09, 10:34 AM
Evidently, they are. Either that, or he's a Planar Shepherd attuned to Greyhawk and does the whole "walk around in a bubble of my home plane" thing.

References to Drzzt and a lich druid make you hurl, but you can utter the phrase "Planar Shepherd" without so much as a tummy-ache?:smallwink:

Doomboy911
2009-12-09, 10:52 AM
Feytouched seems like a great idea for my bard considering I could take on a mindflayer while the rest of my team is drooling like idiots. Not sure how to take it up but bear in mind I'm doing my best to make my wandering bard useful and dodging mind control seems useful beyond belief.

hamishspence
2009-12-09, 11:00 AM
Evidently, they are. Either that, or he's a Planar Shepherd attuned to Greyhawk and does the whole "walk around in a bubble of my home plane" thing.

He's an elf- and the head of that elf-supremacist group whose name translates as "The Victorious Blade of the People"

(I can never remember the actual spelling- something like the Eldath Veluthraa)

Since his deities do not like what he does, he dropped them and figured out how to get druid divine power without working through them.

Optimystik
2009-12-09, 11:12 AM
References to Drzzt and a lich druid make you hurl, but you can utter the phrase "Planar Shepherd" without so much as a tummy-ache?:smallwink:

Broken classes don't make me twitch nearly as much as hackneyed fluff.

A planar druid is an amazing idea. Making it strictly superior to a normal druid in every way was poor execution.


Since his deities do not like what he does, he dropped them and figured out how to get druid divine power without working through them.

Like I said - bubble to Greyhawk :smalltongue:

hamishspence
2009-12-09, 11:14 AM
Alternatively, he was the prototype for 4th ed druids.

Power from "the spirits"- who aren't all that fond of deities.

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-09, 11:38 AM
Since his deities do not like what he does, he dropped them and figured out how to get druid divine power without working through them.

So he's an Ur-Druid?

Optimystik
2009-12-09, 11:40 AM
Alternatively, he was the prototype for 4th ed druids.

Power from "the spirits"- who aren't all that fond of deities.

No, don't get me wrong - I'm all for non-theistic druids - but in FR, as Talya said, it should be impossible.

Post-Spellplague, all bets are understandably off.

hamishspence
2009-12-09, 11:42 AM
yes- though the "have to work through deities to get access to nature powers" bit could be divine propaganda.

Its a bit of a change from FRCS as written, but not an annoying one for me.

Optimystik
2009-12-09, 11:55 AM
yes- though the "have to work through deities to get access to nature powers" bit could be divine propaganda.

Now you're sounding like an Athar :smallwink:

I wonder how the Defiants would do in Faerun, anyway?

Doomboy911
2009-12-09, 12:11 PM
After a closer look at horizon walker it seems like a great class to take or shadowdancer that mixed with feytouched makes me able to hide in plain sight avoid mind control and than work from there. Also I'm not worried about becoming overpowered two of the other people in my party are a warforged barbarian and a artificer rogue, a changeling paladin who I'm working to make a better shapeshifter out of (something similiar to polymorph) and the druid hoping to become a sparkly.I sort of wish I'd taken rogue because of the sneak attack bonus.But if I take up shadowdancer I could mix it with the bard's ability to summon monster so I could summon something than hide.

Fhaolan
2009-12-09, 12:23 PM
I've heard from my friend who took up the druid that one can change their race or something to a monster type like how he's going to take levels in being a vampire.Now what monster can a person take levels in? Because the prospect of making my bard more useful is tempting maybe make him part werewolf to complete the collection.So what monsters are available for ranks in?

If the DM is allowing Savage Species, there's stuff in there about rituals that will transform your character into pretty much any race. It's one of the many sections of that book that many DMs prefer to completely erase from their memory, so even if the DM is allowing that book, it may not be available in your game.

erikun
2009-12-09, 12:31 PM
But if I take up shadowdancer I could mix it with the bard's ability to summon monster so I could summon something than hide.
If you're relying on summoned creatures to do the fighting for you, I think you'll be quite disappointed. Well, it depends on the game you're in, but it sounds like the rest of the party will be far more effective than anything coming out of a Summon Monster spell. Especially one from a half-level bard (as Shadowdancer doesn't progress spellcasting).

Bards are generally better at Bardic Music/buffing or taking some non-core feats for combat ability at the expense of Bardic Music. The only one I can think of right off hand is the Snowflake Wardance feat, allowing you to expend one Bardic Music to add CHA to attack rolls.

Doomboy911
2009-12-09, 03:37 PM
Yeah shadowdancer is beginning to look bad since I need to take ranks in perform (dance) when I only have ranks in perform(strings). Though with my artificer friend he can make spell scrolls which I can use later. So summon a good monster than turn invisible.

hamishspence
2009-12-09, 05:11 PM
Now you're sounding like an Athar :smallwink:

I wonder how the Defiants would do in Faerun, anyway?


Badly, after death at least.

And while alive on the Material Plane of Faerun, they'd get laughed at a lot.

There was a rather funny scene in Jeff Grubb & Kate Novak's Finder's Bane, where the deity in question, has siphoned off their own divinity in order to get into Sigil.

And is listening to an Athar rant.