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View Full Version : Level 1 party, No potions no healers.



Grifthin
2009-12-10, 06:16 AM
So - What do you guys think. In a extended dungeon crawl - how do you stay healthy. At level 1 a combat can be lethal enough as is - but without potions ? What do you recommend ?

The Rose Dragon
2009-12-10, 06:22 AM
...which game?

I can give you tons of advice about a level 1 party in M&M (clearly, the first line of advice would be "don't") or Iron Heroes (which would be more feasible) but if it turns out you're talking about d20 Past, then all of my advice is for naught.

Chrono22
2009-12-10, 06:24 AM
Get a hireling medic, so he can use the heal skill in between fights and overnight. If you have sufficient funds, have him be an adept (npc class).

Otherwise, increase your ac as much as you can, get a mount as soon as you can, and use good tactics and strategies.

DonEsteban
2009-12-10, 06:25 AM
Probably not what you wanted, but, if you play DnD use the Reserve Point variant:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/reservePoints.htm

Ryumaru
2009-12-10, 06:29 AM
If we're talking standard DnD 3.5, well... if I'm honest, the one or two IRL games I had which started at one never included potions. Half the time, our money barely covered arms and armour. =P

All I can say is if you're worried, throw them some monsters which are a little less powerful; maybe goblins with shortswords and shields (which is only, what... 1d4, 19-20/x2?) until you get the hang of balancing things. Give them places to rest regularly, and don't worry -too- much if someone goes down. As long as you don't have them finished off, anyone with a couple of ranks in Heal and a medical kit will be able to stabilize them. Maybe switch out some of the gold in the dungeon they're going through with some extra potions of cure light, or a wand of cure light wounds (if you havn't got a healer, I know most groups tend to have a Rogue. Use Magic Device is nommy ;D). That's how I'd run it, similar to a fashion as the way Left 4 Dead's random generation works; if the party is doing well, throw a little more at them maybe after testing the waters, and have more of the treasure in gold/gems/artwork. If they're suffering, and on their last legs, retcon some of the gold you had planned from the adventure into some potions or a wand with a couple of charges left to give them the pick-me-up they need to survive.

Note: I've never actually DM'ed a game, so not sure how good the advice is. Just going from what seems best from what I have seen of people DMing. Also, sorry if this doesn't help... for some reason, I was under the impression you were the DM. ^^'

Ashtar
2009-12-10, 06:33 AM
In 3.5, Let the rogue with UMD pickup a wand of Lesser Vigor, best investment ever. :)

Kurald Galain
2009-12-10, 06:36 AM
An extended dungeon crawl without healing? Regardless of system, bring a pile of backup characters!

Grifthin
2009-12-10, 06:50 AM
Sorry - it's a party of Level 1's Core 3.5 Dnd. Forgot to add.

Aldgar
2009-12-10, 06:52 AM
Use a few crusaders for in-combat healing. A dragonshaman can use the Vigor Aura for some more free healing, and grant DR via the toughness Aura in combat to prevent damage.

A cleric with sacred healing and sacred purification(feats from PHB2) can spend a turn attempt as swift action to release a "positive energy pulse" that heals 1d8+cha modifier to all living beings in 60', damaging undead for the same amount(no save).

Starbuck_II
2009-12-10, 07:14 AM
Sorry - it's a party of Level 1's Core 3.5 Dnd. Forgot to add.

wand of cure light wounds cost 750 gp. If no one has Use Magicx Device... then that makes it harder.

How about the next enemy they beat has 6 Good berries (from Goodberry spell). Each berry only cures 1 hp, but that will help.

BobVosh
2009-12-10, 07:17 AM
Ranged combat. Level 1 characters can't afford armor, so chain shirt is frequently the best you can get. 4-5 dex + 4 armor is pretty good ac for level 1. Being ranged allows you to stay away from the (kobolds).

Level 1 with no source of healing in an extended dungeon crawl is pretty much suicide. 1 crit can easily drop a character to negatives.

bosssmiley
2009-12-10, 08:10 AM
An extended dungeon crawl without healing? Regardless of system, bring a pile of backup characters!

Truth and wisdom there ^

Sneak, scout ahead, suspect everything, fight dirty, be prepared to run from fights you're losing. Setting up ambushes is your new favourite hobby. :smallwink:

On the bright side, you will graduate from this merciless trial-by-fire as a coldhearted, steely-eyed killer of a player. :smallbiggrin:

Zaq
2009-12-10, 08:13 AM
Define "healer." Do you simply mean no Healer class (from Miniatures Handbook)? No Cleric? No way of repairing HP damage at all?

BenTheJester
2009-12-10, 08:13 AM
In 3.5, Let the rogue with UMD pickup a wand of Lesser Vigor, best investment ever. :)

Except, at level 1, he'll need to roll a 16(minus charisma bonus) just to use it. And if they don't have money for potions, I assume it's too late for this.

Can you even get 750 gp at first level?

erikun
2009-12-10, 08:17 AM
Ranged combat, ambushes, Heal checks.

The best advice at level 1 is to stay out of combat, and take a nap if you do get hit. Those 10 + Constitution modifier Hit Points won't last very long in melee.

Starbuck_II
2009-12-10, 08:23 AM
Except, at level 1, he'll need to roll a 16(minus charisma bonus) just to use it. And if they don't have money for potions, I assume it's too late for this.

Can you even get 750 gp at first level?

Yes, Wotc has free adventure with a Light House and you get a huge amount of money.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20040430a

Money:
Trade Goods: 15 casks of herbs and spices (15 gp each), 19 casks of oil (2 gp each), 1500 copper ingots (15 gp each), 3 casks of glassware (15 gp each), 28 bales of cloth (10gp each), 18 casks of wine and spirits (18gp each), and 12 casks of smoked meat (1gp each).

That is a couple thousand.
The copper ingots alone = 17500 gp (I'm estimating)

BenTheJester
2009-12-10, 08:33 AM
Yes, Wotc has free adventure with a Light House and you get a huge amount of money.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20040430a

Money:
Trade Goods: 15 casks of herbs and spices (15 gp each), 19 casks of oil (2 gp each), 1500 copper ingots (15 gp each), 3 casks of glassware (15 gp each), 28 bales of cloth (10gp each), 18 casks of wine and spirits (18gp each), and 12 casks of smoked meat (1gp each).

That is a couple thousand.
The copper ingots alone = 17500 gp (I'm estimating)

I meant starting.

Because if you want to GET money you can always split ladders into 10ft poles and make infinite money.

Starbuck_II
2009-12-10, 08:36 AM
You could put the adventure in your backstory...

DMs love backstories. :smallbiggrin:

Tyndmyr
2009-12-10, 09:24 AM
Except, at level 1, he'll need to roll a 16(minus charisma bonus) just to use it. And if they don't have money for potions, I assume it's too late for this.

Can you even get 750 gp at first level?

An aristocrat could pull it off. Nobody else, I believe. Most parties wont have 750gp after buying arms and armor.

Don't play fragile characters, play cautious, fight dirty.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-12-10, 09:58 AM
i don't think the heal skill is going to help them much... as it doesn;'t actualy restore hit points.. which i belive is stupid... and im not sure if being ina dungion you could qualify for extended care or what ever it is where it helps you heal naturaly.

Emmerask
2009-12-10, 10:02 AM
hmm itīs d&d first level... even a single kobold can kill someone with a crit
extended dungeon crawl you say without any form of healing?

Well bring a lot of extra chars would be my advise :smalltongue:

Cyrion
2009-12-10, 10:04 AM
A healer should be a staple in any level 1 party simply because of the mechanics of the game. Your characters WILL be hit and WILL need healing after a few combat encounters unless the DM is being very, very nice. Without a healer of some sort you are going to have a lot of 15 minute adventuring days with a lot of days of natural healing in between.

Ormagoden
2009-12-10, 11:01 AM
It's dangerous out there, take this...

1) Food. Lots of food.
2) Water. Lots of water.
3) Tower shields.
4) Arrows. Lots of arrows.
5) Something to jam doors shut with.
6) Bedrolls.

Step 1: Enter room
Step 2: Kill monsters
Step 3: Loot monsters
Step 4: Barricade doors
Step 5: Rest until healed
Step 6: Open doors
Step 7: Repeat from step 1 until dungeon is empty
Step 8: ???
Step 9: Profit!

(Nets, tangle foot bags, and dragon breath arrows are your friends!!!)

Zovc
2009-12-10, 11:05 AM
A wand of cure light wounds will go a long way if there is a rogue (or anyone else who can invest in it) with Use Magic Device, or if there is a paladin or ranger, or someone who eventually will be able to cast cure light wounds.

Vizzerdrix
2009-12-10, 11:07 AM
A party of warforged with full ranks in Craft: armorsmithing.

deuxhero
2009-12-10, 11:08 AM
Just start at level 3. If you can't beat a house cat (and you can't do that constantly at level 1), you shouldn't be fighting monsters.

Zovc
2009-12-10, 11:11 AM
Also, healers and potions are suboptimal, anyways.

BooNL
2009-12-10, 11:17 AM
You could get a partially charged wand of CLW. 10 charges would be about 75gc.

Also, get a sorcerer with Sleep and Grease. That'll sort out most encounters.

Oslecamo
2009-12-10, 11:34 AM
A wand of cure light wounds will go a long way if there is a rogue (or anyone else who can invest in it) with Use Magic Device, or if there is a paladin or ranger, or someone who eventually will be able to cast cure light wounds.

Funny combo: if you use a rogue to deliver a healing spell as a touch attack against a flat footed/flanked target, you apply sneack attack damage. And the extra damage becomes of the type of the spell, aka positive energy. Who's suboptimal now?:smalltongue:

Tavar
2009-12-10, 11:41 AM
Really, even at low levels, you likely won't have enough healing. You get, what, 3 1st level spells? That's 3 attacks at that level. If you want, look into the endless or neverending dungeon crawl threads down in the PBP section: true, it's solo runs, but still, one hit takes alot out of all but the most optimized characters, so you're looking at less than 3 combats at average rolls before you're in trouble.

Zovc
2009-12-10, 11:47 AM
Funny combo: if you use a rogue to deliver a healing spell as a touch attack against a flat footed/flanked target, you apply sneack attack damage. And the extra damage becomes of the type of the spell, aka positive energy. Who's suboptimal now?:smalltongue:

Yeah, but you have to powergame well enough to catch your party off guard with a sneak cure.

Mark Hall
2009-12-10, 12:00 PM
So - What do you guys think. In a extended dungeon crawl - how do you stay healthy. At level 1 a combat can be lethal enough as is - but without potions ? What do you recommend ?

Shoot straight. Conserve ammo. And never, ever make a deal with a dragon.

Seriously, though, it's going to depend a LOT on party make-up. If the party is full of rangers and rogues, then it's pretty easy... sneak in, sneak out. Kill only when the odds are overwhelmingly for you, and an alarm won't be raised. Stab a lot of people in their sleep. Unless the dungeon is very densely populated, you should be able to do quite well.

If the party is a typical mix (a rogue, a wizard, and a bunch of clanky people), your best option is to go slow and hit and run. Hit until you're at about half, then return to a prepared and fortified position to heal. Hit again, back off. After the first time, the hitting gets harder... the target is waiting for you. Depending on their population, things then either get easier or they get harder.

However, like everyone else, the ultimate solution is to find some way of healing. Hire a cleric. Buy some potions. Purchase Tasty Hams and Tasty Ham Oil from the DDO store. Magical healing is a major part of the game, especially in 3e where damages are higher.

Sliver
2009-12-10, 12:45 PM
Funny combo: if you use a rogue to deliver a healing spell as a touch attack against a flat footed/flanked target, you apply sneack attack damage. And the extra damage becomes of the type of the spell, aka positive energy. Who's suboptimal now?:smalltongue:

So you are healing 1d8+1 hp damage and dealing 1d6 positive energy damage. What's your point?

I'm pretty sure that for such a combo to work you need to do this with an inflict wounds spell and a tomb tainted character, as I don't think that positive energy heals normal characters just by being positive energy..

ericgrau
2009-12-10, 01:53 PM
Doesn't keep players from trying to pull a fast one with it.

If you want to survive at least half if not all the party should have ranks in heal, be it class or cross-class. Any time someone is dying someone must go stabilize him. Besides that you gotta be able to rest up easily, so camping gear, a good system of taking watch, and finding rooms that are easy to barricade and/or defend is good. Besides that normal character building tactics apply.

sdream
2009-12-11, 04:22 PM
So you are healing 1d8+1 hp damage and dealing 1d6 positive energy damage. What's your point?

I'm pretty sure that for such a combo to work you need to do this with an inflict wounds spell and a tomb tainted character, as I don't think that positive energy heals normal characters just by being positive energy..

Tell it to the plane of positive energy that gives everyone fast healing.

I've never heard of this cheesy trick before, but it does make sense.

If a rogue understands anatomy well enough to destroy critical organs first, given a precision healing instrument he should be able to restore the most critical organs first.

Now you just need to find a precision healing instrument, which would be pretty rare as most healers prefer to tap their friends any old place in the heat of combat and let their god sort out the details.

Volkov
2009-12-11, 04:33 PM
Well...unless the only thing you are fighting are rats, you sir are royally screwed.

Callista
2009-12-11, 08:42 PM
You simply can't think of yourselves as normal adventurers under those conditions.

You're not going to be blowing through the dungeon room-by-room in the usual fashion. You're going to have to become guerillas--hit hard and fast, vanish, heal up, come back. Pick them off one by one, carefully. Let's say you're trying to take out a caveful of kobolds. Okay, so you sneak in. Get some illusion spells, maybe, or fool a couple of kobolds into following you out into an ambush. Kill them. Then steal the bodies. Don't just leave 'em there. They disappear like they never existed and their buddies get plenty nervous, the more and more of them disappear...

Actually, if I were in that group (and playing a character who would do it), I would do something really bizzare and intimidating to the monsters, not just stealing and hiding the bodies. Maybe take out their eyes or cut out their hearts... maybe burn the bodies with torches or alchemist's fire... maybe cut or paint some kind of cryptic symbol onto them... Let them find that and think, "Oh... crap." The point is to use fear as a weapon. You're outnumbered, you haven't got magical healing on your side. You can't just charge in and start swinging your weapons.

DabblerWizard
2009-12-11, 08:51 PM
Step 1: Play the diplomacy card - "Bring me to your leader"

Step 2: Negotiate a treaty with the leader - "Do you like milk and cookies?"

Step 3: Leave and find a way to frame the leader - "Honey [he] shrunk the kids"

Step 4: Get a large army to take over the dungeon - "Veni, Vidi, Vici"

Step 5: Loot the dungeon - "It's my own, my precious"

Step 6: Profit.

:smallbiggrin:

taltamir
2009-12-11, 09:02 PM
Except, at level 1, he'll need to roll a 16(minus charisma bonus) just to use it. And if they don't have money for potions, I assume it's too late for this.

Can you even get 750 gp at first level?

a wand with half the charges used up...
wands do not have a miscast, EVER, so he just rolls until he gets it right...
Only for out of combat, but healing is healing.

Sendal
2009-12-11, 10:15 PM
Wrong, UMD is the only skill i know of that has a critical failure on a 1. Seriously, look it up.

I once had a rogue who killed himself from a backfire of his cure light wand... Oh the irony.

taltamir
2009-12-11, 11:05 PM
Wrong, UMD is the only skill i know of that has a critical failure on a 1. Seriously, look it up.

I once had a rogue who killed himself from a backfire of his cure light wand... Oh the irony.

and WANDS are specifically excluded from it.
Scrolls WILL have mishaps if cast with UMD, wands will not.

tyckspoon
2009-12-11, 11:15 PM
and WANDS are specifically excluded from it.
Scrolls WILL have mishaps if cast with UMD, wands will not.

Right, they don't misfire, they just refuse to activate for 24 hours- that's the standard penalty for failing a UMD check with a result of 1. That's not a very good thing if you're relying on it for all your healing.. although mostly it just changes the paradigm from "the cleric's out of heals, everybody retreat to safety!" to "the wand's busted, everybody retreat to safety!"