Julius Caesar vs Jean-Luc Picard

[Ichneumon]

I've given this quite some reflection and in all honesty, I wouldn't know who'd be better, Gaius Julius Caesar of ancient Roman history, or Captain Jean-Luc Picard from the USS Enterprise (from Star Trek). To make it possible to discuss this, let's assume we take the media version of Caesar, from for example the telivision series "Rome", (however if you think other Caesars could do it better, you may discuss them too). Let's also assume it's Picard from the time period of the first season of TNG. I'm going to discuss 2 hypothetical situations.

Situation 1: It's the year 49 BC and Julius Caesar has just moved his armies over the Rubicon into Italy. It's the first open confrontation between Caesar and the senate/pompey. Now, as one of the Populares, it's vital for Caesar to win the support of the plebs. Pompey on the other hand, needs the people's support too.

Now, imagine that Picard, together with Lieutenant Commander Data and some of the other bridge officers, were somehow transported to a parrellel universe and would "replace" Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus and some of the most prominent senators (Brutus, Cato, Scipio, Cicero). Imagine also that they´d somehow believe it to be vital for them to be able to return to their own univerise that they defeat Caesar.

Picard's hobby is archeology and I think we can assume that he and Data would know enough of the time period to be able to identify most important figures and events, however they´d still be somewhat disorientated. Because it´s a parallel universe, I don´t think the prime directive would be a concern. Also, let's not assume that they "know" what happens next, in the future, so they can't just know what Caesar's next action will be.

Now, they´d have like one day to adjust to their new identities and situation, however, when the news of Caesar crossing the Rubicon reaches them, Picard has only a few hours before he has to make a statement of some kind to the citizens of Rome. Would he be able to convince the plebs, would Picard be able to win the love of the plebeians and turn them against Caesar?

Situation 2: Now, the first situation was about their charismatic leadership, this one is about their capacity on the battle field.

Now, imagine the battle of Pharsalus, 48 BC, after a long civil war both Caesar and Pompey fight their final battle in Greece. Historically, Pompey lost. But imagine that on the day before the battle, Pompey and his generals get "replaced" by Picard, Worf and the others. Now, just assuming they know how ancient warfare was done, but they don't know what military tactics Caesar will use. Would Picard have made the same mistakes as Pompey? Let's assume they don't have any future weapons to make the fight easier.

[bosssmiley]

Caesar. He made his name and fortune by killing a million Frenchmen and enslaving a million more. Jean-Luc Picard (being a dirty goose-abusing, Galoise-puffing Pierre de Froglegs) is therefore his rightful prey.

QED. :smallamused:

"Ya gotta have rules. If ya don't have rules, then where are ya? That's right: France!" -- The Pub Landlord

[Oslecamo]

Caesar. He made his name and fortune by killing a million Frenchmen and enslaving a million more. Jean-Luc Picard (being a dirty goose-abusing, Galoise-puffing Pierre de Froglegs) is therefore his rightful prey.


To be fair, those frenchmen had pillaged Rome a couple centuries ago, and they allied with Anibal, and gave the romans all kind of headaches, so Caesar was just geting righteous revenge.

Yes, altough most people don't know, the gauls did kick Roma's ass before it became the capital of an empire, altough the reason why they then abandoned it for the romans to rebuild is shrouded in mistery.

[Dienekes]

Caesar. To both.

With his high increase in wealth and his nonchalance view on outright bribery to get exactly what he wants the people would be drawn to him. Sorry, Jean-Luc is too influenced by today's moral standard that would just get in his way. Really, the mob loved Caesar he was seen as a sign of the might of Rome and he had the habit of handing out money to them.

Also since Caesar is already crossed the Rubicon then it's implied that the events leading up to this are already in place, meaning that Jean-Luc would be forced to leave Rome because he doesn't even have an army. This gives a distinct advantage to Caesar

In the second scenario, there's a world of a difference between knowing how classical warfare was done and actually doing it. That and Caesar had shown himself to be (depending on who you ask) one of the greatest military minds of all time. Really using the standard strategies of the time, strong center with a cavalry wing set to the side to be able to flank the opponent during the battle, was what Pompey did. Julius Caesar still beat it. Now if he had tried to use some of the more developed tactics of the later Roman Empire it probably would not have worked either since his soldiers moral was already low, and generally trying to learn an entirely new movement pattern the day of a battle would guarantee to get you exhausted, confused, and killed.

Edit: I don't suppose it'd be worth saying the the Gauls aren't really the French since they were largely pushed out of the way by the Franks, Vandals, Goths, ect.?

[Keshay]

Wait, Picard has Data and Worf with him?
Data could single-handedly wtfpwn the entire Roman army in hand-to hand combat, much less whatever shenanagans he could cook up from era-appropriate materials.

[Mikeavelli]

Wait, Picard has Data and Worf with him?
Data could single-handedly wtfpwn the entire Roman army in hand-to hand combat, much less whatever shenanagans he could cook up from era-appropriate materials.

Eh, Data got pwned by a few rednecks from a dark ages style village on a backwater planet in one episode. His ability to physically overpower a Roman Legion is thus somewhat suspect.

[Prime32]

As for the shenanigans, Data has already been trapped in the Wild West on one occasion and been trapped on a Dark Ages to Medieval level planet on another. Both times he was able to build machines out of the stuff lying around quickly enough. The second time he had amnesia, so with no pre-existing scientific knowledge he invented a primitive camera and discovered radiation and developed a potent cure for radiation poisoning within a week.

[Storm Bringer]

in addition to those arguing against picard, the battle at Pharsalus eas the culimation of a long campgain, that went mostly in favour of ceasar.

the Pompeyian army had suffered heavily form destertion and propaganda, as well as loosing a larger number of the smaller scale skirmishs leading up to the battle, which meant thier morale was at rock bottom. Pompey deployed his men in an abnormally (for romans) deep formation of ten men deep, which is theorised to be due to his lack of faith in thier willingness to fight (ceasers veteran legions, with high morale, deployed in 4 ranks).

in short, by the time picard shows up, the damage is done. Ceasar may not have read Sun Tzu, but he did understand the ideas of indirect warfare.

[chiasaur11]

Kirk, of course, could handle the situation, probably by challenging Caesar to a fistfight. That's why Kirk is awesome.

[darkblade]

I can't see Picard allowing any of these senarioes to take place since they are flagrant violations of the prime directive. Kirk, Ricard, Sisko, Janeway and Archer would all have no real problems doing something like that but Picard at least tried to pay more than lip service to the prime directive.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Caesar. Julius Caesar was one of the most ruthless, charismatic, and effective rulers ever to rule ancient Rome, and, without recourse to modern machinery/technologies, Kirk would definitely fail.

Assuming a balanced start (both sides have equal technology and knowledge of how to use it), Kirk loses. Caesar was simply to strong of a commander and to potent a statesman.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Kirk, of course, could handle the situation, probably by challenging Caesar to a fistfight. That's why Kirk is awesome.

If...You knew... Caesar... like-I-knew-Caesar!

[Ravens_cry]

As much as I adore Jean-Luc Picard, Julius Caesar wins this one. Jean-Luc Picard is a captain of ship. A starship, but that's just technology. Julius Caesar was the de-facto emperor, much of it expanded himself, of an immense realm. Charismatic, ruthless, and an exemplary and audacious general, Julius Caesar wins this in any realm with any form of technological equality.
To paraphrase the man himself; is venit , is vultus , is victum.

[Shyftir]

Julius Caesar, every time.
Why?
In the first scenario: Nobody was going to steal the hearts of Rome's people from Caesar at that moment, he was arriving an already popular man and war hero in a society that valued such leadership. Picard is a very charismatic and wise captain of a vessel in a time where peace and discovery are highly valued, he wouldn't understand the people's psyche well enough after just a couple days to persuade them.

In the second scenario:
While Picard would have not made the same mistakes as Pompey, rest assured he would have made mistakes. Again he just wouldn't have had the time to come to terms with how to take full advantage of a Roman Legion's capabilities. Give him months to learn and practice and we have another story all together.

As for the French: The Gauls that Julius Caesar defeated were a totally different people then the modern French. The Gauls were a Celtic people far more similar to the Scots or Irish then today's French. even the Franks who are the fore bearers of today's French are so far separated in culture they really can't be compared.

[Kneenibble]

Cheers to you, Ichneumon, for writing the only VS. thread, ever, that I want to read through and contribute to.

Picard has demonstrated a knowledge of Latin, and Data goes without saying, but everyone else would have a very unscaleable language barrier to contend with in this situation. Would you leave out any and all future technology (except Data himself), including universal translators?


To paraphrase the man himself; is venit , is vultus , is victum.
I can't resist, I'm a Latinazi. That doesn't make any sense. What are you trying to say?

[Dienekes]

Cheers to you, Ichneumon, for writing the only VS. thread, ever, that I want to read through and contribute to.

Picard has demonstrated a knowledge of Latin, and Data goes without saying, but everyone else would have a very unscaleable language barrier to contend with in this situation. Would you leave out any and all future technology (except Data himself), including universal translators?


I can't resist, I'm a Latinazi. That doesn't make any sense. What are you trying to say?

Ehh, the Latin Caesar spoke and the Latin most people generally learn is about a hundred years separate and rather different. If we're saying that the Starfleet don't have automatic translation then it'd just be ridiculous for them. And I believe he's trying to say "Veni, vidi, vici." Which was one of the many ways to type out Caesar's statement "I came, I saw, I conquered."

[Ravens_cry]

I can't resist, I'm a Latinazi. That doesn't make any sense. What are you trying to say?
'He came, he looked, he conquered'? What does it say to you?

[Starbuck_II]

Although, out of character for Picard: Picard could win.

[Kneenibble]

'He came, he looked, he conquered'? What does it say to you?

It doesn't really say anything. Something like "He came, that expression of the face, he a conquered thing"

It would just be venit vidit vicit.

@Dienekes Point taken, but as someone who's read both Plautus and Seneca, both canon in classical studies, I can tell you that the difference is really not enough that someone who learned the one couldn't understand the other. "Somewhat different in idiom" would be a better way to say it than "rather different."

[Dienekes]

I concede to you Kneenibble. I cannot read Latin, I merely have the basis of what I learned through reading.

[Kneenibble]

I concede to you Kneenibble. I cannot read Latin, I merely have the basis of what I learned through reading.

You're right though, forcing the Enterprise folks to work against a language barrier stilts an already uphill challenge too far.


As for the shenanigans, Data has already been trapped in the Wild West on one occasion and been trapped on a Dark Ages to Medieval level planet on another. Both times he was able to build machines out of the stuff lying around quickly enough. The second time he had amnesia, so with no pre-existing scientific knowledge he invented a primitive camera and discovered radiation and developed a potent cure for radiation poisoning within a week.

Yeah, man, Data is the trump card. Like in so many of the Enterprise episodes, Data's abilities are instrumental in Picard's success in this scenario, even though it's Picard's people skills and inviolable human spirit that wield Data's abilities to victory.

If Picard were to prevail, which as many posters have already demonstrated would be exceedingly difficult, it would come down to utilizing Data's encyclopedic knowledge of the historic accounts (presuming they were true*) of the situation effectively, and the possible construction of some impromptu technology.

*which they probably weren't, as guess who wrote them.

[Dervag]

I do not think Picard can win this one. He's a competent leader, and good at inspiring his crew, but he's not a world-historical genius. Caesar was arguably the most able single man Rome ever produced in all its long history, by the Romans' own admission. From a political standpoint, he had a long history of political maneuver in Rome that no random guy from outer space could possibly duplicate. From a military standpoint, hardly anyone ever managed to get the better of him, and he routinely got the better of almost all his enemies.

Picard is out of his league.

[GallóglachMaxim]

Picard couldn't win. He'd probably do better than Pompey and his supporters did, by being more flexible and innovative, but on the off chance that he did beat Caesar then paradox would kick in, and he'd almost certainly cease to exist.

[Prime32]

Yeah, I would say that Picard loses unless Data can McGuyver some weapons.

I seem to recall an episode where someone made a crude phaser from a tricorder and some com-badges. Do they still have those with them? Can they communicate among each other with them? Would the tricorders let them see enemies coming? If all else fails, Data has been shown to use some of his own non-vital components as part of devices he constructs.


You know, this scenario is vaguely plausible as another "the holodeck has gone crazy" storyline.

[Ravens_cry]

You know, this scenario is vaguely plausible as another "the holodeck has gone crazy" storyline.
One upside for Club-E, if that was the situation, is that then Jean-Luc Picard would have the advantage of knowing the historical record, because that would be the 'reality' of the situation. Fore warned is fore armed, and all that jazz.

[Dallas-Dakota]

Awesome Vs. thread, Ichy.

Now tactically it's pretty much already decided.

The plebians would probably side with Caesar though:

1. The characters which are of a non-human race will be seen as either a gift or a curse from the gods by the plebs.

They could really influence the plebs and inspire fear into the armies of Caesar. Worf when demonstrating strength could inspire people/make people fear more. Data with his impromptu technology.(I'm pretty sure he could build some Com technology. Instant com between to far-off places can be a real helping hand.

And in the roman eye, who is more powerfull then the gods? No, not even Caesar. Clearly the gods do not favor him.

So, yeah, that's pretty much the only possibility of how I could see Picard win against Caesar.

[Killer Angel]

Caesar, hands down.
The man ruled the known world, were a brilliant politic and a military genius.
Picard has the power of plot: take that from him, and he will lose: knowledges help, but are not sufficient.

[Lamech]

Yeah, the two methods of victory are... Data pretending to be a god or angel or some such. And Data inventing superweapons err... highly advanced for the time weapons and killing everyone. Also Data walking up to Ceaser and tearing his head off. (Actually I'm not sure if he's that strong...)

[Keshay]

Eh, Data got pwned by a few rednecks from a dark ages style village on a backwater planet in one episode. His ability to physically overpower a Roman Legion is thus somewhat suspect.

Data was never harmed by anyone he ever was in conflict with. Any time he was actually harmed/incapacitated it was either by a equal or superior foe, or by people he was actively trying to avoid harming.

In a combat situation where Data was ready for action, had clear targets, and where he was willing to take lives, there's not much anyone in his own time could have done to stop him in hand-to-hand, much less Romans.

And to the person asking of Data is strong enough to tear someone's head off, it would be akin to popping a dandelion off its stem. Effortless.

A Caesar vs. Picard situation its difficult to judge. People keep bringing up Caesars accomplishments as superior to Picard's because they were real and didn't have the writers on his side. Well, Picard does not know that. If you want to make a comparison, one must consider Picard's accomplishments as fact. He really did all those things in his reality.

The biggest detriment to Picard in these scenarios is the time limit. Had he been born a Roman, his character is portrayed in such a way that he'd have done well in Roman politics. Keep in mind, he did lead the Praetorian Guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejanus) for a time. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I,_Claudius)

[Killer Angel]

A Caesar vs. Picard situation its difficult to judge. People keep bringing up Caesars accomplishments as superior to Picard's because they were real and didn't have the writers on his side. Well, Picard does not know that. If you want to make a comparison, one must consider Picard's accomplishments as fact. He really did all those things in his reality.


Even so, Picard is "only" a very good commander and leader of men. He didn't conquer almost all the known world, and he's neither the Emperor of Mankind.
And when the debate is considering Data, which could win alone because it's undestructible by anything the roman can throw to him, well, it a little unfair. At this point is not Caesar Vs Picard, But the Roman world Vs Data.

[Haven]

One upside for Club-E, if that was the situation, is that then Jean-Luc Picard would have the advantage of knowing the historical record, because that would be the 'reality' of the situation. Fore warned is fore armed, and all that jazz.

I think advances in archaeology and other techniques would mean that there's a good chance that the account of history that's taught in Federation classrooms is more accurate than today's. Perhaps not absolutely accurate, but enough that I'd think Picard's knowledge of the events (especially as someone with archaeological training himself) would be an advantage for him.

[Dervag]

The biggest detriment to Picard in these scenarios is the time limit. Had he been born a Roman, his character is portrayed in such a way that he'd have done well in Roman politics. Keep in mind, he did lead the Praetorian Guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejanus) for a time. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I,_Claudius)Heh.

Yes, had Picard been born a Roman, he'd have been someone for Caesar to watch closely, and it is quite possible that he would have outmaneuvered Caesar in the Senate, if not in the public's view*. Although it should be noted that Caesar overcame several other great Romans in his own time, including able generals like Pompey, able politicians like Cicero, and walking personifications of integrity like Cato the Younger.

But coming from a foreign context, with limited time to work with? If Picard is not out of his league, or at least playing against a major home team advantage.

*What are Picard's accomplishments in the field of inspiring loyalty from the general public, as opposed to the specific individuals under his eye?

[Ravens_cry]

*What are Picard's accomplishments in the field of inspiring loyalty from the general public, as opposed to the specific individuals under his eye?
He is able to take on about the closest his universe has to a god with hearty speech on what humanity will achieve (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PatrickStewartSpeech).
Frankly they always scared me. They spoke of a glowing vision of humanity someday being without warts. But I like the warts.
***
I apologize for opening a vortex to a certain black hole.

[Dienekes]

He is able to take on about the closest his universe has to a god with hearty speech on what humanity will achieve (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PatrickStewartSpeech).
Frankly they always scared me. They spoke of a glowing vision of humanity someday being without warts. But I like the warts.
***
I apologize for opening a vortex to a certain black hole.

"You gave an excellent speech, incidentally, perhaps a touch too cerebral for that audience."

Picard can tell a good speech, that's no doubt. But Caesar was able to get the entire mob of Rome to love him while he wasn't even at Rome, and had no opportunity to defend himself from his opponents, many of whom were the most respected men in Rome.

I'm sorry, I don't see Picard being able to match that.

[Dervag]

He is able to take on about the closest his universe has to a god with hearty speech on what humanity will achieve (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PatrickStewartSpeech).Yes, but that's one on one, and it's quite possible that Q had already made up his mind before Picard started talking and was just playing with the captain's head.

I don't deny that Picard has charisma and command presence. I'm talking about his ability to win the hearts and minds of a people, as Caesar did in Rome, and as his enemies failed to do.

[Ravens_cry]

"You gave an excellent speech, indecently, perhaps a touch too cerebral for that audience."

Picard can tell a good speech, that's no doubt. But Caesar was able to get the entire mob of Rome to love him while he wasn't even at Rome, and had no opportunity to defend himself from his opponents, many of whom were the most respected men in Rome.

I'm sorry, I don't see Picard being able to match that.
You're probably right. I don't think we ever get a chance to see him give a speech to a large audience, however.
Do we?

[Surrealistik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcRg2RiLKzo&feature=related

EDIT: Speech is at the end.

[Dervag]

You're probably right. I don't think we ever get a chance to see him give a speech to a large audience, however.
Do we?It's not just a matter of giving speeches. It's a matter of political savvy, of knowing how to spin events so that the public will see you as the hero and your enemies as the villains, and in Rome of knowing when to give gifts to the masses to make yourself look good.

Cato the Younger was one of the best public speakers of his era, and everyone who knew him freely admitted that he was supremely honorable and an admirable fellow... but Caesar still managed to completely outmaneuver him.

[Ichneumon]

I don't know the exact episode's name, but once Picard was on trial in one episode, where he managed to anger the prosecutor by using a quote from her father in his defense speech, which pushed her over the edge, "breaking" her emotionally and getting the jury on his side.

[Haven]

It's not just a matter of giving speeches. It's a matter of political savvy, of knowing how to spin events so that the public will see you as the hero and your enemies as the villains, and in Rome of knowing when to give gifts to the masses to make yourself look good.

Cato the Younger was one of the best public speakers of his era, and everyone who knew him freely admitted that he was supremely honorable and an admirable fellow... but Caesar still managed to completely outmaneuver him.

Hmm...Picard could probably do that. I haven't watched TNG for a while, always got the sense he was a fairly savvy guy, politically and diplomatically speaking. He might be hindered by the fact that he's not at all interested in his own personal glory, since he embodies the Federation ideals of a lack of self-interest. On the other hand, it might be that those natural tendencies distinguish him as a hero, spin or no.

He might also be seen as impious. ...Wait a minute, how does the fact that in Star Trek canon, energy beings disguised as gods visited Earth during this period ("Who Mourns for Adonais") factor into the scenario?

[Keshay]

I don't know the exact episode's name, but once Picard was on trial in one episode, where he managed to anger the prosecutor by using a quote from her father in his defense speech, which pushed her over the edge, "breaking" her emotionally and getting the jury on his side.


The Drumhead. Average episode overall, but the climax scene was great.

[Dienekes]

Hmm...Picard could probably do that. I haven't watched TNG for a while, always got the sense he was a fairly savvy guy, politically and diplomatically speaking. He might be hindered by the fact that he's not at all interested in his own personal glory, since he embodies the Federation ideals of a lack of self-interest. On the other hand, it might be that those natural tendencies

He might also be seen as impious. ...Wait a minute, how does the fact that in Star Trek canon, energy beings disguised as gods visited Earth during this period ("Who Mourns for Adonais") factor into the scenario?

A major problem is that Picard is defined by the morals of our time period while Caesar is defined by the morals of his, and they're not exactly similar. Bribing, assassinations, whole sale slaughter, expansive military confrontations to gain money through looting the countryside, sexual favors? All in a days work for a Roman.

I sincerely doubt that Picard could, or would be willing to stoop to that level.

[Haven]

A major problem is that Picard is defined by the morals of our time period while Caesar is defined by the morals of his, and they're not exactly similar. Bribing, assassinations, whole sale slaughter, expansive military confrontations to gain money through looting the countryside, sexual favors? All in a days work for a Roman.

I sincerely doubt that Picard could, or would be willing to stoop to that level.

True. Sisko would probably do alright, though.

[Prime32]

*What are Picard's accomplishments in the field of inspiring loyalty from the general public, as opposed to the specific individuals under his eye?
Well, the Borg did choose Picard as their "human ambassador" for a reason.

[Irenaeus]

Captain Picard's only way to victory:

1) Revert to his true form as Patrick Stewart.
2) As Patrick Stewart, take on his 1972 stage role as Cassius in "Julius Caesar".
3) As Cassius, convince Brutus and the rest of the conspirators to kill Caesar.
4) Profit!

5)Commit suicide by proxy after being crushed by Marcus Antonius.

[Ravens_cry]

Another way for Jean-Luc Picard to win

1) Revert to his true form as Patrick Stewart.
2) As Patrick Stewart, transform into Professor Xavier. Wheel chairs may not be available, but slaves were.
3) As the professor, mind control Julius Caesar into doing your bidding.
4) Profit!

5)Still profit

[secretbison]

Because it´s a parallel universe, I don´t think the prime directive would be a concern.


Has the Prime Directive ever been a concern before? :)

[kpenguin]

Has the Prime Directive ever been a concern before? :)

You're thinking of Kirk. Picard tends to take such things as gospel.

[chiasaur11]

A third method.

1) Be Patrick Stewart
2) Have mind powers, like his character, Professor Xavier.
3) I mean, not in a comic book world, but in the real world.
4) Control the world with his mind

Yes, and she's scrabbling around to get them back on again, but even before she can get her knickers on, I've seen everything. Yeah. I've seen it all.

[secretbison]

Picard's greatest asset on the battlefield is Data. Honestly, nothing Julius' forces can do will harm him. It's just a matter of positioning Data in the right place at the right time to strike the most terror. Even if he is extremely socially awkward, the plebs will listen to the man who can tear armies apart with his bare hands.

[Irenaeus]

A third method.

1) Be Patrick Stewart
2) Have mind powers, like his character, Professor Xavier.
3) I mean, not in a comic book world, but in the real world.
4) Control the world with his mind

Yes, and she's scrabbling around to get them back on again, but even before she can get her knickers on, I've seen everything. Yeah. I've seen it all. Good one. Have a cookie.

[Killer Angel]

Picard's greatest asset on the battlefield is Data. Honestly, nothing Julius' forces can do will harm him.

As I've said before, at this point is not Caesar Vs Picard, But the Roman world Vs Data.
Picard would have no merit in a victory like this; instead of Picard, you could insert the name of any officier of the Federation (with Data) and will obtain the same result.

[Prime32]

As I've said before, at this point is not Caesar Vs Picard, But the Roman world Vs Data.
Picard would have no merit in a victory like this; instead of Picard, you could insert the name of any officier of the Federation (with Data) and will obtain the same result.
Don't forget, he also has Worf with him (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc5EIvdRCqA) :smallamused:

[Kris Strife]

Don't forget, he also has Worf with him (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc5EIvdRCqA) :smallamused:

Yeah, but Worf's only role will be to get his butt kicked by Ceasar personally.

[Prime32]

Yeah, but Worf's only role will be to get his butt kicked by Ceasar personally.Did you even click the link? :smalltongue:

[Kris Strife]

Did you even click the link? :smalltongue:

Of course, but no one had said who would give the butt kicking before me. :smalltongue:

[mikeejimbo]

Kirk, of course, could handle the situation, probably by challenging Caesar to a fistfight. That's why Kirk is awesome.

And then go on to sleep with all the women.

Yes, all of them.

Even that one.

[secretbison]

And then go on to sleep with all the women.

Yes, all of them.

Even that one.

You know, in all the shows and movies, Kirk only ever slept with like two women. And when he's on Earth he can't find a girl to save his life. His actual forte is vaguely, languidly fighting, Steven Segal style.

[Force]

Something many of you are overestimating is Data. He may be able to rip men apart with his bare hands... But he's one android. A roman legion is somewhere around 10,000 men. Data's not going to be able to do enough damage to them all on his lonesome. Even if he were invulnerable to their weapons-- and he's not-- it would still take him too long. He's far from invulnerable as well, and while he has some martial arts skills, he's from a society that explores space in pajamas and fights with energy weapons. The Roman soldiers are used to a battlefield that is far bloodier and much more horrifying then many of us can imagine; Data might be able to win their respect, but that wouldn't stop them from working in concert to beat him into his constituent components.

In the second scenario, Data's not going to have the time to whip up any technological miracles. He's not got any of the Enterprise's technology with which to create said miracles, which restricts him to materials that the Romans would have on hand. He might be able to manage basic explosives, but a game-winner is beyond him.

In the first scenario, Picard doesn't stand a chance. He's unknown to the people of Rome, handicapped with 24th century notions of morality, and completely out of his depth. Caesar would outmaneuver him easily.

In the second scenario, none of the E's crew probably knows anything worth spit about maneuvering a pre-spaceage legion without any training. Their individual abilities-- Worf's training as a Klingon warrior, as well as Data-- may be useful, but those abilities are hardly sufficient to turn a battle.

In summary: The E's crew loses. Hard.

[Keshay]

You know, in all the shows and movies, Kirk only ever slept with like two women. And when he's on Earth he can't find a girl to save his life. His actual forte is vaguely, languidly fighting, Steven Segal style.

Kirk also has something like a +40 to his will saves. I'd say that's his greatest strength. One of the aforementioned women had the ability to use her tears to permanently enslave a man to her whim. Kirk shrugged off that influence with relative ease. Same with the wonderous happiness health spores that stop working when you get angry. he shrugged them off easily enough on his own.

Also, don't knock Steven Segal. His fighting style isn't that flashy, but he'll mess guys up in a real fight.

[Surrealistik]

Picard wins if only because of this song. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rYhRqf757I)

[Irbis]

Situation 1: It's the year 49 BC and Julius Caesar has just moved his armies over the Rubicon into Italy. It's the first open confrontation between Caesar and the senate/pompey. Now, as one of the Populares, it's vital for Caesar to win the support of the plebs. Pompey on the other hand, needs the people's support too.

Jean Luc is nobody. Why would anyone listen to him? Pompey was a noble, with massive power base/wealth. So was Cesar. Where Pickard will find money for bribes/gifts? Or free bread/games for plebs?

And that is even before we take into account that he will speak about abolishing money and space communism.


Situation 2: Now, the first situation was about their charismatic leadership, this one is about their capacity on the battle field.

Now, imagine the battle of Pharsalus, 48 BC, after a long civil war both Caesar and Pompey fight their final battle in Greece. Historically, Pompey lost. But imagine that on the day before the battle, Pompey and his generals get "replaced" by Picard, Worf and the others. Now, just assuming they know how ancient warfare was done, but they don't know what military tactics Caesar will use. Would Picard have made the same mistakes as Pompey? Let's assume they don't have any future weapons to make the fight easier.

Again, why anyone would listen to him? What office he holds? Is he noble? Was the legion made/paid from his own pocket?

And again, it is like someone who read manual on driving going against Michael Schumacher of warfare - yeah, he is going to win this :smallsigh:

Data won't help, either. He is not that strong, his skin can be pierced by sword, so while he could make a lot of damage, he would still be unarmed thug fighting guys who kill for a living. He is going down. Now, if they could pass him as a god, or if he was immune to swords, that would be a different story, but still, that would require major luck, be a hax option, and it would all rely on Data, not Pickard.

Still, Cesar claimed his lineage was traced directly from the gods, so no major advantage here.


@Dienekes Point taken, but as someone who's read both Plautus and Seneca, both canon in classical studies, I can tell you that the difference is really not enough that someone who learned the one couldn't understand the other. "Somewhat different in idiom" would be a better way to say it than "rather different."

As far as I understand it, we have no idea how it was pronounced, and what passes as Latin today is nothing more than a language from the Dark Age sharing most of the words. That is, I remember reading about scholars arguing that while we could read/write in classical Latin, it is possible we couldn't actually talk in it.

Just like the difference between modern Mandarin/Cantonese, that share the same alphabet and words, differing in a way to speak them.


One upside for Club-E, if that was the situation, is that then Jean-Luc Picard would have the advantage of knowing the historical record, because that would be the 'reality' of the situation. Fore warned is fore armed, and all that jazz.

So? Knowing about history =/= knowing every single detail, unless Data has an uber wikipedia somewhere in his memory. Can you, for example, name tactics used in Battle of Bulge? of Marne? of Baghdad, even? All these examples are <100 years old, while for Pickard it would be a detail from somethin >2500 years ago.

[Kneenibble]

As far as I understand it, we have no idea how it was pronounced, and what passes as Latin today is nothing more than a language from the Dark Age sharing most of the words. That is, I remember reading about scholars arguing that while we could read/write in classical Latin, it is possible we couldn't actually talk in it.

I... wasn't talking about pronunciation. The question was about differences between historical periods of the language.

[Irbis]

I... wasn't talking about pronunciation. The question was about differences between historical periods of the language.

Um... you suggested the language hasn't changed so much that we would be unable to communicate (speak) with Caesar. According to what I've read, this is not necessarily true.

Now, was I wrong or really that wouldn't be so easy? :smallwink:

[Irenaeus]

So in conclusion, excluding scenarios where Data is able and willing to slaughter an extreme amount of soldiers, Caesar wins?

Also, don't knock Steven Segal. His fighting style isn't that flashy, but he'll mess guys up in a real fight.I really doubt that. Him combining Aikido with being old and fat is not very scary at all. Also, he seems quite unsympathetic, quite delusional and plays Country music, I strongly reccomend knocking him. Even if Steven Segal - Lawman was hillarious.

[Kneenibble]

Um... you suggested the language hasn't changed so much that we would be unable to communicate (speak) with Caesar. According to what I've read, this is not necessarily true.

Now, was I wrong or really that wouldn't be so easy? :smallwink:

You were wrong.

Neither the modern received pronunciation, nor the academically reconstructed classical pronunciation we do have come out of a vacuum of silliness. The second-declension -um ending could be a solid back vowel and bilabial nasal as in the former, or a more front vowel with a velar nasal, which its easy elision in poetry suggests, as in the latter.

In any event, -um is not pronounced whizzy-whizzy bang n'yetphoo dishwasher. Neither is any other letter or morpheme. I'd give a smart fella an hour at most with a senator to be able to hook up the words he knows as written, and has a general approximation of how they're meant to sound, with the way the native speaker is saying them.

Dienekes supposed that there was too great a disparity between Latin 100 years after Caesar (Silver Age-ish) and Caesar's own Latin (Golden Age-ish) for somebody who learned the one to understand the other. All I had initially pointed out was that if you can read a silver-age author like Seneca, you can read even an anteclassical author like Plautus. Don't take what I say out of context, please, even by accident.

We have already resolved, however, that including the language barrier in this match pitches the battle too far against Picard who is already the underdog, and so the point is quite academic. :P