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DragoonWraith
2009-12-11, 06:31 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/DragoonWraith/Dungeons%20and%20Dragons/Homebrew/Dancer.png
Dancers are the Bards of the Sublime Way.

Dance has long been an important part of Bardic traditions, and many Bards have used Dance as an important medium for their many abilities. However, Dance has always been accompanied by sound, be it clapping or tambourine or the tapping of their feet, because it has always been the sounds of Bardic music that have held their power.

At the same time, Bards have always been jacks-of-all-trades, dabbling in a great many things, their storytelling and minstreling being dashed with a bit of magic, their songs embodying their own charisma and leadership to bolster allies in battle, and with their wit and eloquence holding their own in the courts of kings. Martial Bards have been noted throughout history - the military Bard have been an important part of infantry units in armies throughout history for their abilities to improve others, but even Bards who take up weapons themselves, while less usual, are far from uncommon.

As it turns out, many Bards found that Dancing was well suited to Martial combat, and a variety of Martial Disciplines might be incorporated well into their Dance routines. These Bards discovered that for the Martial arts, as opposed to the magical, it was the movements of Dance, rather than the sounds, that were important. As these Bards moved away from sound and towards motion, they became more and more distinctive, and have become known as Dancers.

Dancers are still very similar to Bards, and though Dancers are not spellcasters, they nonetheless maintain a certain magicality about them - the motions of their Dance not only allow them to Maneuver about enemies and take advantage of their weaknesses, but can also serve similarly to Bardic music.

Alignment
Any nonlawful.

Hit Die
d8

Skills
Class Skills
The following are the class skills (and key ability modifier for each skill) of the Dancer: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).

Skill Points at 1st Level
(6 + Int modifier) 4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
6 + Int modifier.

Starting Gold
As Bard.

Class Features
All of the following are Class Features of the Dancer.
{table=head]
Level |
BAB |
Fort |
Ref |
Will | Special |
M. Known |
M. Readied<br>(for Dance) |
Stances
1st |
+0 |
+2 |
+2 |
+0 | Artful Dodge, Bardic Dance, Bardic Knowledge, Distracting Dance -1, Weapon Finesse |
2 |
2 (2) |
0
2nd |
+1 |
+3 |
+3 |
+0 | Rally Performance |
3 |
2 (2) |
1
3rd |
+2 |
+3 |
+3 |
+1 | Heartflame Dance |
3 |
2 (2) |
1
4th |
+3 |
+4 |
+4 |
+1 | Refine Performance |
4 |
2 (2) |
1
5th |
+3 |
+4 |
+4 |
+1 | Martial Pose, AC Bonus +1 |
4 |
2 (2) |
1
6th |
+4 |
+5 |
+5 |
+2 | War Dance |
5 |
2 (2) |
1
7th |
+5 |
+5 |
+5 |
+2 | Dance of the Wild |
5 |
3 (2) |
1
8th |
+6/+1 |
+6 |
+6 |
+2 | Distracting Dance -2 |
6 |
3 (2) |
1
9th |
+6/+1 |
+6 |
+6 |
+3 | Martial Art |
6 |
3 (2) |
1
10th |
+7/+2 |
+7 |
+7 |
+3 | AC Bonus +2 |
7 |
3 (2) |
2
11th |
+8/+3 |
+7 |
+7 |
+3 | Dance of the Wind |
7 |
3 (3) |
2
12th |
+9/+4 |
+8 |
+8 |
+4 | Wiznaibus |
8 |
3 (3) |
2
13th |
+9/+4 |
+8 |
+8 |
+4 | Dance of the New Moon |
8 |
4 (3) |
2
14th |
+10/+5 |
+9 |
+9 |
+4 | Distracting Dance -3 |
9 |
4 (3) |
2
15th |
+11/+6/+1 |
+9 |
+9 |
+5 | Charming Dance, AC Bonus +3 |
9 |
4 (3) |
2
16th |
+12/+7/+2 |
+10 |
+10 |
+5 | Slow Dance |
10 |
4 (3) |
2
17th |
+12/+7/+2 |
+10 |
+10 |
+5 | Twin Dance |
10 |
4 (3) |
3
18th |
+13/+8/+3 |
+11 |
+11 |
+6 | Dance of the Cosmos |
11 |
4 (3) |
3
19th |
+14/+9/+4 |
+11 |
+11 |
+6 | The Endless Waltz |
11 |
5 (3) |
3
20th |
+15/+10/+5 |
+12 |
+12 |
+6 | The Last Dance, Distracting Dance -4, AC Bonus +4 |
12 |
5 (3) |
3 [/table]

Armor and Weapon Proficiency
Dancers are proficient with all Simple and Martial Weapons that may be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with Whips. Dancers are not proficient in any Armor, and wearing Armor interferes with their Dances.

Maneuvers
A Dancer begins with knowledge of two Martial Maneuvers. A typical Dancer knows Maneuvers from the Dancing Leaf (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85614), Scarlet Rose (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130270), Setting Sun, and Shadow Hand Disciplines. The Coin's Edge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75548), Chthonic Serpent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131567), Fool's Grip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67879), Lost Lyrics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71389), Scarlet Bravura (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101008), and White Raven Disciplines, however, are alternate Disciplines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7459338&postcount=56) for the Dancer.

Considering the current very preliminary status of the Age of the Warrior project, I consider this a fairly conservative estimate of the Disciplines available to the Dancer. If playing without using homebrewed Disciplines, I recommend using the Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, and White Ravens, along with either Diamond Mind or Iron Heart, which both almost sort of kinda fit.
Once a Maneuver is known, it must be readied (see below). A Maneuver usable by Dancers is considered Extraordinary unless otherwise noted in its description, is not affected by spell resiStance, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity when initiated.

Dancers learn additional Maneuvers as listed in the table. The Dancer must also meet a Maneuver's prerequisite to learn it (see Table 3-1, Tome of Battle, pg. 39, to determine the highest level Maneuver a Dancer can learn).

Upon reaching 5th level, and every odd level thereafter, a Dancer may choose to learn a new Maneuver in place of one she already knows. In effect, she loses the old Maneuver in exchange for the new one. She can choose a new Maneuver of any level she likes, as long as it is a level that she may know; it may even be a higher level than the Maneuver she forgets. She may only swap a single Maneuver at a given level.

Maneuvers Readied
A Dancer's Maneuvers are indelibly tied to her Dancing ability. Though a Dancer may ready two Maneuvers at 1st level, and gains the ability to ready more as she gains levels, she never gains the ability to ready very many. She readies her Maneuvers by spending five minutes practicing, and then starts combat with these Maneuvers available. After using one, it becomes expended, and is not available until the end of the combat, or until she finishes one of her Bardic Dances, when these Maneuvers are recovered.

However, when a Dancer prepares her Maneuvers, she also practices her Dance routines - and can incorporate Maneuvers into them. See her Bardic Dance ability, below.

Stances Known
A Dancer begins play without any Stances, but at 2nd level, she may learn one Stance from any Discipline from which she may learn Maneuvers. At 10th and 19th, she may learn additional Stances. Unlike Maneuvers, Stances are not expended, and do not have to be readied. All Stances known to a Dancer are available at all times, and she may switch between them as a Swift action. A Stance is an Extraordinary ability unless noted otherwise in its description.

Unlike Maneuvers, a Dancer cannot change her Stances after selecting them at the appropriate levels. Receiving training in an alternate Discipline is an exception to this, however.

Artful Dodge (Ex)
A Dancer gains a bonus to her Armor Class equal to her Charisma modifier during any of her Dances. This bonus applies against Touch attacks and when she is flat-footed, as long as she is in one of her Dances when attacked.

Bardic Dance
Once per day per Dancer level, a Dancer may begin any of the Dances that she knows as a Swift action. Dances provide benefits, either strengthening the Dancer and her allies, or weakening her foes, similar to Bardic Music. Those effected by the Dance must be able to see the Dancer. These effects also last only as long as the Dancer is Dancing. Also, when a Dance is finished, her normally prepared Maneuvers are recovered, so she may use them again. During a Dance, the Dancer cannot maintain her Martial Stance, and so loses the benefits of that Stance, though she may return to it as a Free action once the Dance is complete. A Dance lasts a number of rounds as indicated in each Dance's description; a Dancer may cease Dancing as a free action, but this does not count as completing the Dance for the sake of recovering her Martial Maneuvers.

Further, when a Dancer readies her Martial Maneuvers, she also prepares her Dances and may associate a number of Maneuvers with each Dance. The number of Maneuvers that may be associated with each Dance is listed in the table, in parentheses in the Maneuvers Readied column. She must prepare ahead of time on which round of the Dance she will use each associated Strike or Boost, though Counters do not need to be associated with a given round, since they are to be used as needed. Any number of Dances may be prepared with the same Maneuvers, as desired.

When she enters combat, she may begin a Dance as a Move action, and it will last for a number of rounds indicated in the Dance's description. The round in which it is initiated is round 1, and on each round her actions may be used to initiate the Dance's associated Maneuvers. If she wishes, she can forgo the prepared Maneuvers in order to take any other action she could otherwise make, but she misses the opportunity to use that Maneuver and may not use it until she starts the Dance over. She may initiate her normally prepared Maneuvers at any point in which they would be normally allowed in the Dance, including at times when she had planned to use some other Maneuver associated with the Dance.

Every Dance that a Dancer may learn requires a certain number of ranks in Perform (Dance). If the Dancer does not have enough ranks by the time she gains the appropriate level in the Dancer class, she does not learn that Dance until she does.

For example, a 1st level Dancer knows the Distracting Dance, which lasts 3 rounds, and can ready two Maneuvers, so she may select what Maneuvers she'll be using on which rounds. She might, for example, choose to prepare Lightning Speed for the second round of Distracting Dance, and then select Crawling Ivy Strike to be used on the third turn. When she begins to use the Distracting Dance, her Move action is spent beginning it, while her Standard action may be used normally. On the second round, she may use Lightning Speed for her Swift action, or else she may give up Lightning Speed to use something else. She is free to use her Standard action as normal. On the third round, her Standard Action may be used for Crawling Ivy Strike, though she may again choose to forgo the opportunity to use that Maneuver.

A Dancer has difficulty Dancing in Armor or while carrying heavy weights, and wearing even Light Armor halves the duration of her Dance as well as the number of Maneuvers she may associate with it. If wearing Medium or Heavy Armor, or while carrying a Medium or Heavy Load, the Dancer may not use any of her Dances.

Bardic Dance may count as Bardic Music in some situations, though this is left to the DM's discretion. Typically, if uses of Bardic Music are being used to power some other feature, Dance should usually work just as well. Similarly, if the benefit given to Bardic Music is not specificly sound-based, then Dance should not work.

A Dancer may also know how to sing or play an instrument (especially, say, one who uses the Lost Lyrics Discipline), but these performances do not typically carry the magic that either her Dances or a Bard's Music would.

OK, this is the Dancer's main schtick. It's also potentially very awkward, but I really like the mechanic on some level, so while I think it needs tweaking, if possible I'd like to maintain some variation of the idea. Thoughts on this are very appreciated.

Bardic Knowledge
As the Bard feature. A multiclass Bard/Dancer stacks both classes' levels for determining her total bonus to Bardic Knowledge checks.

Perhaps out of place, since she's a bit far removed from your average Bard. Still, I do want to maintain some ties.

Distracting Dance (Ex)
The Distracting Dance lowers enemies' awareness in combat, leaving openings for the Dancer and her allies. All enemies affected by the Distracting Dance take a -1 distraction penalty to Armor Class, Attack Rolls, and Saving Throws. Their DR is also lowered by 1, unless they have none in which case they take 1 extra damage whenever they are successfully hit. These penalties last for the entire three round duration of the Distracting Dance.

The Distracting Dance requires at least 3 ranks in Perform (Dance).

For an 8th level Dancer, these penalties all increase to -2. For a 14th level Dancer, they are -3, and for a 20th level Dancer, they are -4. If any enemy affected by Distracting Dance has less DR than the total penalty, the DR is reduced to 0 and then the remainder of the penalty is treated as extra damage that the enemy takes when hit.

This is close to, but not exactly, the same as Inspire Courage but in reverse. It's a little stronger, which may (or may not) be counter-acted by the fact that the effects end as soon as she stops Dancing. Thoughts?

Really, I'd like to ditch the scaling and come up with more Dances, but I need to think of more Dances.

Weapon Finesse
A Dancer gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Rally Performance (Ex)
Starting at 2nd level, a Dancer hones her skill as a public performer and can reroll a Perform check once per day, but only when attempting to impress audiences for the purpose of earning money. A Dancer must take the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the original roll. See Perform on page 79 of the Player's Handbook.

Heartflame Dance (Su)
During a Heartflame Dance, a Dancer gains a Performance bonus equal to her Charisma modifier to her Attack and Damage rolls. Her allies gain a Performance bonus on their own Attack and Damage rolls equal to one third her Charisma modifier. The Heartflame Dance lasts four rounds, and requires 6 ranks in Perform (Dance).

Honestly, this is a benefit I want to give her more often, but it's kind of hard.

Refine Performance (Ex)
At 4th level, a Dancer learns how to make his performances more appealing to the public of a prosperous city and is considered to have rolled at least a 2 on each d10 or d6 when determining how much money was earned each day from a Perform check. See Perform on page 79 of the Player's Handbook. At 5th, 7th, 10th, 11th, 13th, 16th, and 17th level, a Dancer is considered to have rolled 1 number higher on each d10 (for example, a least 3 at 5th level, at least 4 at 7th level, etc.). By extension, a Dancer is considered to have rolled at least 3 on each d6 at 7th level, at least 4 at 11th level, and at least 5 at 16th level. At 19th level, a Dancer earns the maximum amount of money for her performance.

Martial Pose (Ex)
A 5th level Dancer retains her Artful Dodge bonus while in any Martial Stance, even if not Dancing. This feature only functions for Dancers with at least 8 ranks in Perform (Dance)

AC Bonus (Ex)
Every 5 levels (5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th), a Dancer gains an extra +1 to her AC, at any point when Artful Dodge is in effect.

War Dance (Ex)
A 6th level Dancer with at least 9 ranks in Perform (Dance) may use a War Dance, which lasts four rounds. Each enemy affected by the War Dance must make a Will Save with a DC equal to 10 + the Dancer's Cha modifier + half her class level, or lose his Dexterity bonus to AC for the round. The enemy must make the saving throw each round in which he is subject to the War Dance.

Dance of the Wild (Ex)
During a Dance of the Wild, a 7th level Dancer and her allies may ignore penalties to speed, movement, or skill checks associated with movement (such as Tumble, Jump, and Climb checks) incurred by moving through difficult terrain. They may even run or charge through it. The Dance of the Wild lasts five rounds, and requires 10 or more ranks in Perform (Dance).

Martial Art (Ex)
At 9th level, a Dancer gains the ability to maintain her Martial Stance during any of her Dances. Unlike usual, she may retain the benefits of her Stance while using a Dance. This feature requires 12 ranks in Perform (Dance).

Dance of the Wind (Su)
By using a Dance of the Wind, a 11th level Dancer with at least 14 ranks in Perform (Dance) may grant each of her allies (including herself) a 40' Fly speed with Good Maneuverability. This Dance lasts six rounds.

Wiznaibus (Su)
With at least 15 ranks in Perform (Dance), a 12th level Dancer may use Wiznaibus, a Dance in which her enemies are each subject to the area version of Dispel Magic. The Caster Level of this effect is equal to the Dancer's Initiator Level, and is capped at +20. Wiznaibus lasts six rounds, and every creature that can see the Dancer may be affected each round.

Dance of the New Moon (Su)
The Dance of the New Moon, learned by a 13th level Dancer, lasts seven rounds. At the beginning of the Dancer's turn each round, each of her allies becomes invisible as by the Invisibility spell. The Dance of the New Moon requires at least 16 ranks in Perform (Dance).

Charming Dance (Su)
A 15th level Dancer may dance the Charming Dance for seven rounds so long as she has at least 18 ranks in Perform (Dance). Each round, she may choose any enemy who can see her, and that enemy must make a Will save against 10 + her Cha modifier + half her class levels, or be Charmed, as with the Charm Monster spell.

Enemies who fail a single save are Charmed for the duration of the Dance, but may be subject to additional saves to increase the duration, as listed on the chart below:
{table=head] Number of Failed Saves | Duration of Charm Effect
1 | Duration of Dance
2 | Seven rounds after the Dance ends
3 | Rounds equal to Dancer level
4 | Rounds equal to twice Dancer level
5 | Minutes equal to Dancer level
6 | Minutes equal to twice Dancer level
7 | 1 day[/table]

Slow Dance (Su)
For the eight round duration of the Slow Dance, all of a 16th level Dancer's enemies are treated as having an Initiative 10 lower than their actual Initiative. Those who have already had their turn on the round in which the Dancer begins this dance do not get a second turn that round, even if the penalty would put them after the Dancer. Similarly, at the end of the Dance, any enemies who have not gone but would have gone before the Dancer go immediately after her, in order, and take their next turn as dictated by their unpenalized Initiative. The Slow Dance requires 19 ranks in Perform (Dance).

Twin Dance (Ex)
An 17th level Dancer with at least 20 ranks in Perform (Dance) may begin a second Dance while already in the middle of another. Both Dance's effects work and the Maneuvers associated with both Dances may be used as normal (though the Dancer may be forced to choose between two Maneuvers if they are planned for the same action). Each Dance lasts its normal duration, and the second Dance requires three daily uses of the Dancer's daily use of Bardic Dance. The Last Dance may not be used with any other Dance, even with Twin Dance.

Dance of the Cosmos (Su)
At 18th level, a Dancer may use the Dance of the Cosmos. This Dance lasts seven rounds, and requires at least 21 ranks in Perform (Dance). On her turn each round the Dancer may switch the places of her allies as the spell Benign Transposition, though any ally (including the Dancer herself) may end up in any other ally's previous position. Further, each ally (including the Dancer herself) may, as a Move action, teleport up to a distance equal to their land speed on each round in which the Dance is active.

The Endless Waltz (Ex or Su, depending on the Dance chosen)
A 19th level Dancer with at least 22 ranks in Perform (Dance) may choose one of the following Dances: Distracting Dance, Heartflame Dance, or Dance of the Wild. The chosen Dance's benefits always affects the Dancer, or its penalties always affects her enemies, as appropriate, and does not count as one of her two simultaneous Dances. Further, she may, as a Free Action, begin the maneuver sequence associated with the Dance as normal, though after doing so that sequence is effectively Expended, and she cannot begin that sequence again until she Recovers her Maneuvers by completing a different Dance.

The Last Dance (Su)
For the nine round duration of the Last Dance, a 20th level Dancer causes a Maw of Chaos to appear as if she had cast the spell herself. The caster level of the spell is equal to her class level.

Using the Last Dance requires seven daily uses of Bardic Dance, however, and only a Dancer with 23 ranks or more in Perform (Dance) may use it.


OK, so I don't think I've ever been less sure about a class I posted (actually, I'm going to take that back; both the Puppet Master and the Mystic Theurge were worse), so seriously, please give honest feedback and help me make this shape up a bit better. Thanks!

Feats
Extra Dance
Prerequisites
Bardic Dance class feature
Benefits
You may use your Bardic Dance feature three times more per day than you would otherwise.
Normal
You may only use your Bardic Dance a number of times per day equal to your Dancer class level.
Special
You may take this feat more than once. Its benefits stack.

Extra Dance Maneuver
Prerequisites
Bardic Dance class feature
Three martial maneuvers
Perform (Dance) 13 ranks
Benefits
Choose a Dance that you know. From now on, one additional Maneuver may be associated with that Dance during preparation.
Special
You may take this feat more than once. Its effects do not stack, instead choose a different Dance to apply the benefit to.

Graceful Kata
Prerequisites
Bardic Dance class feature
Benefits
Gain Unarmed Strike damage as a Monk of your Dancer level. If you are a multiclass Dancer/Monk, your Monk and Dancer levels stack both for determining your Unarmed Strike damage, as well as the number of times per day you can use Bardic Dance.

Musical Diversity
Prerequisites
Bardic Dance class feature
Bardic Music class feature
Inspire Courage class feature or Heartflame Dance class feature
Benefit
Your Bard and Dancer class levels stack for the purposes of determining the number of times per day Bardic Dance and Music may be used.

Snake Dance
Prerequisites
Bardic Dance class feature
One Chthonic Serpent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131567) stance
Benefits
Choose a Bardic Dance you know, and a Chthonic Serpent Stance you know. You gain the benefits of that Stance whenever you use that Dance, even if you are already in another Stance because of the Martial Dance class feature.
Special
You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack; instead, choose a different Dance with which to associate any Chthonic Serpent stance. No Dance may have more than one Stance associated with it.

Rauthiss
2009-12-11, 11:54 AM
Part of Wiznaibus is worded oddly: "The Caster Level of this effect is equal to the Dancer's Base Attack Bonus, and is capped at +20.". However, the BAB of a dancer never becomes more than +15 without multiclassing, and never more than 17 by multiclassing.

In addition, the duration of dances seems too "set in stone", as it were. I like the idea of regaining manuevers after the dance and using them during the dance, but the whole "Plan your dance and manuevers ahead of time" feels wonky to me. Also, Distracting Dance and Wiznaibus don't have any duration.

Nero24200
2009-12-11, 02:17 PM
Looks pretty good at first glance, though I'll need to have a closer look before I can say anything balance wise. Though the way the text is displayed a tthe top does make it a little hard to read :/

But anyway, this is exactly the thing I think the AOW project needs - new base classes which take advantage of the new discilpines.

alchemyprime
2009-12-11, 02:51 PM
Part of Wiznaibus is worded oddly: "The Caster Level of this effect is equal to the Dancer's Base Attack Bonus, and is capped at +20.". However, the BAB of a dancer never becomes more than +15 without multiclassing, and never more than 17 by multiclassing.

In addition, the duration of dances seems too "set in stone", as it were. I like the idea of regaining manuevers after the dance and using them during the dance, but the whole "Plan your dance and manuevers ahead of time" feels wonky to me. Also, Distracting Dance and Wiznaibus don't have any duration.

Two syllables: Eh. Pick. Epic levels, man, epic levels.

Oh, alternatively, gestalt. A lot of designers, I've noticed and myself included, keep gestalt in mind when making classes. A gestalt fighter/dancer would have a +20 BAB.

These concerns pop up a lot with high powered games.

Speaking of high powered games, look to my signature for a shameless plug. >.>

DragoonWraith
2009-12-11, 04:25 PM
Part of Wiznaibus is worded oddly: "The Caster Level of this effect is equal to the Dancer's Base Attack Bonus, and is capped at +20.". However, the BAB of a dancer never becomes more than +15 without multiclassing, and never more than 17 by multiclassing.
Just covering my bases. I like to be thorough. Though I'm also considering capping it at +15, though that seems unnecessarily punishing to multiclass or gestalt characters.


In addition, the duration of dances seems too "set in stone", as it were. I like the idea of regaining manuevers after the dance and using them during the dance, but the whole "Plan your dance and manuevers ahead of time" feels wonky to me. Also, Distracting Dance and Wiznaibus don't have any duration.
Yeah, I don't like the way they're set like that either, but it's necessary for the other mechanics. I actually rather like the way you have to plan the maneuvers out, though I could easily see the problem - hopefully I can get some play-testing on the character.


Looks pretty good at first glance, though I'll need to have a closer look before I can say anything balance wise. Though the way the text is displayed a tthe top does make it a little hard to read :/
Aw, I liked that formatting. Does anyone else think it's annoying?


But anyway, this is exactly the thing I think the AOW project needs - new base classes which take advantage of the new discilpines.
Yeah, there are a few but not enough of them out there.

LunarWolfPrime
2009-12-11, 08:10 PM
I like the set up but I disagree on the cap stone on the two dances, if one dance has a strike set up in it and the other has a boost set for the same round I think they should work just fine. Now if it was two strikes on the same round or two boost on the same round then you would pick.

But other then that you did great dude.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-11, 08:19 PM
I like the set up but I disagree on the cap stone on the two dances, if one dance has a strike set up in it and the other has a boost set for the same round I think they should work just fine. Now if it was two strikes on the same round or two boost on the same round then you would pick.

But other then that you did great dude.
Ah, I was afraid that would be ambiguous. It says "you may have to choose between two maneuvers" - as in, if both maneuvers use the same action, you can't use both (unless you somehow have two of that action, which can happen). I didn't mean to say that you couldn't combine the two normally. I've clarified.

Also, I added a couple of feats.

LunarWolfPrime
2009-12-11, 08:37 PM
Ok, thank for the clarification dude and nice feats.

Oh have you had any thoughts on a Dancer Warblade feat.
Some sort of blade dancer feat I guess you could call it.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-12, 06:37 PM
I'm not sure a multiclass adept feat is really necessary. There's no SS/Cru/WB feats, not really sure there needs to be a WB/Dancer one.

But Blade Dancer's a pretty sweet name for a feat. I'll try to think of something to go with that one.

Also, added another feat.

LunarWolfPrime
2009-12-12, 07:06 PM
I personal believe that there should be some sort of recovery method that you can use out side of the whole dance thing. An I assume you can use the maneuvers out side of dances to, right.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-12, 09:15 PM
Yes, the maneuvers you prepare normally are just that, usable normally.

deuxhero
2009-12-12, 09:19 PM
1. Pretty sure anything more than naked is a light load, so only a naked dancer doesn't suffer duration penltys.
2.No armor (Even mage's get mithiral twilight chain shirt) and a limit to your use of the AC booster is painful. I'd say just give them charisma to AC, but Charisma to AC and Weapon Finease is a bit of a heavy first level though.
3.Lotsa dead levels and lacks a capstone. Give them the ability given to bards in the "Dead Levels" web article that let's you retry preform checks for starters, then add a few extra uses for dance like say... activating musical items with your dance check in place of the required preform type or other random things. The 5th is the worst of the bunch, you don't get BAB, saves or maneuvers on it.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-12, 10:18 PM
1. You're right, I mixed that up. OK.
2. This is true, but it seems fitting that they would have a hard time even with light armor. Moving Weapon Finesse to level 2 just seems like an annoyance for people playing at level 1, for no real reason. Hmm... thoughts?
3. Was basing it pretty strongly on the Bard. That said, I would like to add more dances, so that's an obvious choice for more features. I will also check out that article, that's a great idea. Good catch on the complete dead-level, though, that's just bad.

And, any commentary on the actual dancing mechanic? That is my biggest concern at the moment.

Thanks!

EDIT: OK, I added a few more Dances, fixed the Light Load issue, and improved her AC. I also added a rather considerable capstone; let me know what you think.

deuxhero
2009-12-13, 11:41 AM
Dance of the wind comes quite late, Wizard has had Fly, Mass (I think that exists) for levels by then. Any issues with pushing it up to level 11?

elliott20
2009-12-13, 11:16 PM
is it just me or is the table formatting off?

DragoonWraith
2009-12-14, 02:39 AM
Dance of the wind comes quite late, Wizard has had Fly, Mass (I think that exists) for levels by then. Any issues with pushing it up to level 11?
None, except that it makes 15th a little light - you get an AC bonus and an iterative attack. Not terrible... maybe I'll think of something minor to add. I agree it's weak, but it's pretty in line with what the Bard already has. Since I'm more interested in Tier 3 than Tier 1 for the class, that seems like a reasonable balance point...

And the table looks fine to me...

OK, moved Dance of the Wind, added Charming Dance and The Last Dance. The latter's rather powerful, but less so than a Wizard of the same level could do (by quite a bit). Still, as I just said - that's not the desired power point. Thoughts?

deuxhero
2009-12-15, 08:29 PM
Since I'm more interested in Tier 3 than Tier 1 for the class.

Don't worry about it. Binders can do something a level equivalent wizard can do once every 5 rounds (explicit under the official guidelines for creating new visages), and they are tier 3 (unless they can use one specific ability) because they can only do so many things (no batman). Flight is one thing that is VERY common (and I believe expected at high levels).

DragoonWraith
2009-12-16, 04:49 PM
Well, I've moved it to the capstone in any case. Added a new Dance, Dance of the Cosmos, and shuffled the last four levels around. Let me know what you think!

Also, still hoping for input on the Dance/Maneuver mechanic in general, and what people's thoughts are on a non-Dance related recovery mechanic.

EDIT: I never put in the minimum Perform ranks for each Dance; fixed that.

dangerprawn
2009-12-16, 07:58 PM
I think Distracting Dance & Slow Dance should have some sort of save or avoidance mechanic. If I've read correctly, they are the only Dances that attack/affect enemies that don't allow a save or other way to resist the effect.

I suppose someone could close their eyes...but I think there should be a chance to resist the effect.

deuxhero
2009-12-16, 08:03 PM
distracting dance amounts to mearly a bard's inspire courages in effect.

dangerprawn
2009-12-16, 08:14 PM
distracting dance amounts to mearly a bard's inspire courages in effect.

Yes, but it's a debuff on the bad guys.

deuxhero
2009-12-16, 08:40 PM
That does nothing more than buffing your allys.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-16, 09:19 PM
Yeah, I don't think either effect demands a save. Especially not Distracting Dance, for exactly the reasons that deuxhero mentions - it's exactly identical to Inspire Courage except in reverse. Your enemies don't get a chance to prevent Inspire Courage from working on your allies, do they? Why should they with Distracting Dance?

Also, changed the formatting to a more traditional layout, after it was pointed out that my screen is really wide and many people don't have one as wide, and it looks bad when you get down to 1024 pixels wide.

dangerprawn
2009-12-16, 09:35 PM
Yeah, I don't think either effect demands a save. Especially not Distracting Dance, for exactly the reasons that deuxhero mentions - it's exactly identical to Inspire Courage except in reverse. Your enemies don't get a chance to prevent Inspire Courage from working on your allies, do they? Why should they with Distracting Dance?

Also, changed the formatting to a more traditional layout, after it was pointed out that my screen is really wide and many people don't have one as wide, and it looks bad when you get down to 1024 pixels wide.

It's not the same. Inspire Courage gives a bonus to your allies. Distracting Dance imposes a penalty to your enemies. While the net effect may be viewed as a reversal, they are two separate things.

Imposing penalties on enemies in dnd usually requires a mechanic to resist the effect. Armor Class, Saving Throws, Spell Resistance, etc. Even abilities that don't offer these mechanics have another way, like the Paladin of Slaughter's Debilitaing Aura (-1 AC to enemies within 10ft). That ability has an easy way to mitigate the effect - move more than 10ft from the Paladin.

I see three ways to prevent the effect of Distracting Dance. They can close their eyes, so they can't see it, close their ears, so they can't hear it, or prevent the Dancer from moving, thereby causing them to stop dancing.

I'm not against what the ability does - I just think it should have a fair way to be resisted.


Also, thanks for changing the table.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-16, 10:16 PM
I'm not convinced that "imposing penalties in dnd usually requires a mechanic to resist the effect," means I have to have one. There are other exceptions out there, plenty of them. More importantly, it is mathematically identical to Inspire Courage, except that it reduces enemy's saves instead of strengthening allies'. Reducing enemy AC by 1 is the same as increasing allied Attack by 1. Making enemies take 1 damage more is the same as increasing allied damage by 1. Etc.

Also, hearing the Dance is not necessary, so yes, they would have to close their eyes or stop the Dancer from dancing.

Which is exactly what they would have to do with a Bard who was singing Inspire Courage, except they wouldn't have the option of closing their eyes. The effects are the same, there is no reason that Distracting Dance requires a save when Inspire Courage does not. Unless you can prove that there is some numerical difference between the two that warrants a save, I'm not changing it. I simply don't agree that it "should" have a save just because it is weakening enemies instead of strengthening allies.

dangerprawn
2009-12-16, 10:42 PM
They may have a net effect that is mathematically identical, but they are not the same thing. There is a very important distinction here and I don't think you're recognizing that.

Giving a bonus to an ally and imposing a penalty on an enemy are completely different elements of the game. As such they have different mechanics as to how they work.

You're trying to argue that because the rules that allow you to give a bonus to an ally don't require a resistance mechanic, then your ability that imposes a penalty on the enemy shouldn't require one either, simply because the mathematics of the bonus/penalty equal out to the same thing.

The fact that the bonus/penalty appears to be a reverse does not change the basic mechanic for how imposing penalties work. It is irrelevant that it's mathematically similar; you are using a different mechanic than granting a bonus.


I simply don't agree that it "should" have a save just because it is weakening enemies instead of strengthening allies.

That is exactly my point. Weakening enemies uses different mechanics than strengthening allies. You are applying the rules for strengthening allies to your ability to that weakens enemies. It needs some kind of fair resistance mechanic.

DragoonWraith
2009-12-16, 11:25 PM
Why? The change in the relative strengths of your allies and enemies is identical. How does the fact that you roll 1d20+5 against 14 instead of rolling 1d20+6 against 15 make any difference? Either way you succeed when you roll a 9. The change in battle effectiveness is the same.

And penalties on enemies do not automatically always give the enemies a chance to avoid it. The usually do, but that doesn't mean they always do and that doesn't mean I have to.

Unless you have something else to add, I'm going to ask you to stop. You're derailing the thread and not contributing anything meaningful at this point; I thought I'd made that clear in my previous post but you didn't get it so I'll be blunt. I disagree with you. And I'm not going to change my mind unless you present new evidence - your arguments thus far have not convinced me. Continuing to repeat them is not going to convince me. So please stop.

LunarWolfPrime
2009-12-28, 08:49 PM
Does the idea of a needing to take a full round action and a dance check requiring a making a certain DC say like 15 plus half you dancer lvl to refresh your maneuvers?

DragoonWraith
2009-12-28, 09:14 PM
That would probably be reasonable enough.

That said, I'm considering ways of changing the dancing mechanic to be not daily limited, which would eliminate the issue.

Charlie Kemek
2009-12-29, 12:33 AM
for disciplines, you should allow diamond mind, but allow perform (dance) checks to replace concentration checks.