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crazedloon
2009-12-11, 09:00 AM
So if you are not familiar with E6 check this out (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html)

So once you have checked that out (or already familiar with the system) How would you represent high powered creatures without overpowering the players.

Iconic high powered creatures include older dragons, demons and angels

And is hoping through planes (with help from some rituals or plot tools) possible, say for example going to hell and traveling its 9 layers?

RagnaroksChosen
2009-12-11, 09:03 AM
So if you are not familiar with E6 check this out (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html)

So once you have checked that out (or already familiar with the system) How would you represent high powered creatures without overpowering the players.

Iconic high powered creatures include older dragons, demons and angels

And is hoping through planes (with help from some rituals or plot tools) possible, say for example going to hell and traveling its 9 layers?

It depends...
What are you trying to get out of E6.. Why go with that rather then play normal dnd..

Im a huge E6 fan don't get me wrong but plane hoping and fighting demons(especialy big ones) are a little out of the realm of e6... you can do one or two higher power demons but players i don't think should be galavanting through hell.

bosssmiley
2009-12-11, 09:20 AM
So if you are not familiar with E6 check this out (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html)

So once you have checked that out (or already familiar with the system) How would you represent high powered creatures without overpowering the players. Iconic high powered creatures include older dragons, demons and angels

That's for the players to work out. Suffice it to say the plan is going to have to be a leeeeetle more dependent on player cunning than the D&D standard of 'buff like mad, exploit some loopholes, then run at it with our heads'.

"Level appropriate? THIS! IS! E6!" :smallwink:

Suffice it to say that defeating high CR monsters is intended to be more of a puzzle/quest objective than a straight boss fight. LOTR, for example, is the story of an E6 party defeating a lich by destroying his phylactery...


And is hoping through planes (with help from some rituals or plot tools) possible, say for example going to hell and traveling its 9 layers?

The DM still has access to all the narrative plot-powered plane shifting goodness he will ever need. He merely decrees that such is possible because of an existing rift, ancient portal, planar ship, (insert preferred FX here), etc. And look at Planescape; that was probably an ideal E6 setting, and level-independent planar travel was a defining element.

E6: my gateway back to *proper* D&D. :smalltongue:

Cyclocone
2009-12-11, 09:23 AM
All the Aspects in Miniatures Handbook are around CR 9-10, so you could totally kick Asmodeus' ass with an E6 party.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-12-11, 09:24 AM
The DM still has access to all the narrative plot-powered plane shifting goodness he will ever need. He merely decrees that such is possible because of an existing rift, ancient portal, planar ship, (insert preferred FX here), etc.

And look at Planescape; that was probably an ideal E6 setting, and level-independent planar travel was a defining element.


Ya to bad balors and pit fiends romped around in sigil next to devas... heh planescape rocks but alot of it is because every thing is overpowered :)

Temet Nosce
2009-12-11, 09:29 AM
So if you are not familiar with E6 check this out (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html)

So once you have checked that out (or already familiar with the system) How would you represent high powered creatures without overpowering the players.

Iconic high powered creatures include older dragons, demons and angels

And is hoping through planes (with help from some rituals or plot tools) possible, say for example going to hell and traveling its 9 layers?

Mostly I'd just nix the high level spellcasting if I intended the players to directly face them. If I intended for them to never actually have to directly combat the creatures I might leave them as is.

Would some things still be extremely difficult if this was the only change? Definitely, but I've both played and DMed games where much higher CR creatures were destroyed (occasionally by a single character).

This is of course, all presuming your characters are competent to a sufficient level to deal with those kinds of creatures. If your players aren't good at optimizing it may be a no go.

crazedloon
2009-12-11, 09:32 AM
All the Aspects in Miniatures Handbook are around CR 9-10, so you could totally kick Asmodeus' ass with an E6 party.

nice didn't even notice those

However that leaves the issue of the other devils in hell. Is there an effective way of powering down creatures?

I understand the group is never going to take out 6 pit fiends and their demonic minions but is there an effective pit fiend (or other demon who can be equated to a pit fiend) which is weak enough a higher level e6 (i.e. multiple "levels" above 6) can challenge and not be crushed by or is this a case of DM needs to do work and stat his own critters.

Deth Muncher
2009-12-11, 09:44 AM
nice didn't even notice those

However that leaves the issue of the other devils in hell. Is there an effective way of powering down creatures?

I understand the group is never going to take out 6 pit fiends and their demonic minions but is there an effective pit fiend (or other demon who can be equated to a pit fiend) which is weak enough a higher level e6 (i.e. multiple "levels" above 6) can challenge and not be crushed by or is this a case of DM needs to do work and stat his own critters.

Only use Imp stats?

Johel
2009-12-11, 09:48 AM
Same idea than RagnaroksChosen, here :
With 6th level as the upper limit, demons and other powerful outsiders actually get a true divine status. The gap between punny mortals and them is such that, for the most part, it's useless to even TRY to fight them directly. And mortals shouldn't play around with other dimensions. No, they shouldn't...

Imps, Quasits and the likes, up to Succubus, are the ambassadors of the Outer Planes because they are the only ones likely to ever be called...if called at all.

How to call them when you have no access to 4th level spell and higher ? Not possible by RAW but you could always have a plot-related ritual that somehow weaken the border between the world.

Maybe create a custom 3rd level spell whose effect are similar to Lesser Planar Binding but require a very specific and rare component. This can be some rare holy relic for a good-aligned outsider...or a screaming virgin for an evil-aligned outsider.

For dragons :
The old ones are lazy : they slumber most of the time and awake when hungry, eat half a herd and then go back to sleep for years. They are, however, too wise to actually threaten civilizations.
The young ones are greedy and horny : they make babies, eat a lot and hoard shiny shiny. Because of this, most are killed with their clutch before reaching full adulthood.

Also, a important factor is the Draconic Civil War (I'm making that up) : a terrific conflict that has been going on for millenniums. No ranged battles but a lot of skirmishes, raids and vendettas. Old dragons spend much of their awakened time researching information about enemy dragons, to locate their lair, kill them and loot their hoard. Young dragons spend much time hiding from the old ones while trying to increase their hoard, as it's the only way to get laid... Remember : horny and greedy.

Killer Angel
2009-12-11, 09:51 AM
So if you are not familiar with E6 check this out (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html)

...

And is hoping through planes (with help from some rituals or plot tools) possible, say for example going to hell and traveling its 9 layers?

Didn't knew it. Seems cool. :smallsmile:

That said, the answer is: yes. I think is possible to plan such a travel, is something like the Fellowship. Few fights, infiltation, clever planning, pacts with marraenoloths, etc.
Mind over strenght. A great ending of a campaign.

hamishspence
2009-12-11, 09:56 AM
If the Draconic Civil War was a bit more "cold war" it might be a little like Xorvintaal, the Great Game, in MMV.

Dragons with no spellcasting, but boosted other powers, that constantly scheme against each other, sending various pawns (adventurers) to effect most of their schemes.

jmbrown
2009-12-11, 10:12 AM
You defeat powerful forces through cunning, guile, artifacts, and numbers instead of solo. In most myths, really powerful creatures have glaring weaknesses that are a literal Achilles heel.

Smaug in The Hobbit was killed by a black, enchanted arrow. Rakshasa can be instantly killed by blessed bolts. Vampires can be deterred by an aggressively presented holy symbol. Devils are prisoners to their word (albeit they twist it) so clever wording and careful oaths can keep them at bay. Demons have no real weaknesses in D&D so I'd say you'd have to incorporate a true name system or some means of binding them like mundane runes written in salt or good weapons literally crippling them (-10 to AC, attacks, etc. and they can't concetrate on spell-like abilities within 24 hours of being struck by a blessed or holy weapon).

RagnaroksChosen
2009-12-11, 10:21 AM
nice didn't even notice those

However that leaves the issue of the other devils in hell. Is there an effective way of powering down creatures?

I understand the group is never going to take out 6 pit fiends and their demonic minions but is there an effective pit fiend (or other demon who can be equated to a pit fiend) which is weak enough a higher level e6 (i.e. multiple "levels" above 6) can challenge and not be crushed by or is this a case of DM needs to do work and stat his own critters.

actualy yes.
Add caster levels to a cr4-5 creature

Mark Hall
2009-12-11, 11:03 AM
So if you are not familiar with E6 check this out (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html)

So once you have checked that out (or already familiar with the system) How would you represent high powered creatures without overpowering the players.

Iconic high powered creatures include older dragons, demons and angels

That part is easy.



"I always understood dragons were soft... underneath... vulnerable."
"Well, you have heard wrong. I am armored both above and below."
"Well.... I don't know about that."
"You don't know about that. Well, I shall show you!"
...
"Old fool. There's a patch in the hollow of your left breast that's as bare as a snail out of its shell."

...

"Black arrow! You've never failed me, and I've always recovered you. I had you from my father, and he from of old. If ever you came from the forges of the true King under the Mountain, go now and speed well! "

That's how an E6 group beats an older dragon. Reconnaissance and special weapons.

Nero24200
2009-12-11, 11:40 AM
I'll just echo what others have said and use a LOTR type of battle. Remember that partly the point of E6 is that the characters, whilst heroes, aren't superheroes.

A 20th level martial character can (and should) be able to take large creatures and beat them upside the head ala the finishing moves of the chaplin in Dawn of War, then backflip off their shoulders onto the ground and conviently onto the head of one of the monster's minions - coup de gracing them in the process.

E6 characters should struggle against things like Balors, so games with such creatures aas antagonists becomes more of a "Let's find a way to beat them" rather than "You kick open the door and I'll beat it down".

Eldariel
2009-12-11, 12:24 PM
I'll just echo what others have said and use a LOTR type of battle. Remember that partly the point of E6 is that the characters, whilst heroes, aren't superheroes.

A 20th level martial character can (and should) be able to take large creatures and beat them upside the head ala the finishing moves of the chaplin in Dawn of War, then backflip off their shoulders onto the ground and conviently onto the head of one of the monster's minions - coup de gracing them in the process.

E6 characters should struggle against things like Balors, so games with such creatures aas antagonists becomes more of a "Let's find a way to beat them" rather than "You kick open the door and I'll beat it down".

And those creatures should act more as movers than direct combat threats. Generals don't engage in battle, they lead. Powerful creatures have enough servants just on the account of their power to set and keep grand plans in motion, and they don't and shouldn't personally show up except when absolutely necessary.

As such, opposing a Pit Fiend should be less of a game of "Let's Scry'n'Kill it!" and more of a game of chess dealing with plans and servants, culminating in somehow acquiring tools that can kill the beast itself; up until then you AVOID it (not that it'd personally try and seek you out anyways). The final fight also offers nice chances of Heroic Sacrifice and the like ( la Ascend Mortality or some such).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-12-11, 01:18 PM
Creatures on the material plane are only aware of the dealings of heaven and hell because of higher level plane-hopping and divinations. If nobody is capable of those spells, then nobody is aware of what's going on outside the material plane and the DM can simply ignore those places as though they didn't exist. Demons and angels only get to the material plane because they were summoned there by high level spellcasters, or they travel there to combat the ones that were summoned. Remove those high level spellcasters by using E6, and there are no powerful demons or angels on the material plane, ever.

Keep in mind that powerful creatures can always just fight other powerful creatures. You could establish an ecology in your E6 setting, in which powerful creatures keep down the populations of other powerful creatures and the dealings of puny foodthings are beneath their concern. Include vast expanses of wild areas, kingdoms of giants high in the mountains who make a habit of hunting dragons/demons/whatever, and a vast inaccessible underground filled with Lovecraftian horrors. Such places should be avoided at all costs, for certain doom would lie within. "They fled away from the battle... and into Fangorn Forest." "What madness drove them in there?" If the PCs would have to travel through such a place, have them encounter powerful creatures who are chatty, rather than intent on devouring them. Such creatures wouldn't see humanoids or elves very often if at all and would probably view them with curiosity more than anything, or mistake them for something they see more often, "Sounds like orc mischief to me!" Friendly creatures could even offer to escort them through, though I'd use that sparingly.

There are more than enough smart mid-level monsters in this game to come up with challenging and interesting BBEGs and the plots they scheme. Just a few such creatures would include a Drider, Ogre Mage, Harpy Vampire, Aboleth, a psionic Mind Flayer, Yuan-Ti, Gauth, a Medusa, a Giant, and that's just from the core MM. Any of those could establish a cult following in an attempt to enslave a city. Many creatures could just wander out of the wilds and into humanoid lands and decide to settle down since they'd be so much stronger than anyone already there. The established powers would almost certainly have an elite guard who drive out any such foes that can be defeated through brute force, but trickier ones or opponents with special powers would require that they hire cunning adventurers.

Lower and mid-level demons and angels could certainly show up (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFamiliar), and even an Imp or Quasit could be a great challenge to even a level 6 character with hit-and-run tactics, delivering poison a few times then using invisibility and flight with fast healing to reset their progress against it. Stronger demons and devils tend to be brute force fights, but the lower and mid-level ones have a lot of special abilities that you can be creative with. Despite a lack of high-level spellcasters, there are other means (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) of bringing such creatures to the material plane.

Mark Hall
2009-12-11, 02:03 PM
Creatures on the material plane are only aware of the dealings of heaven and hell because of higher level plane-hopping and divinations. If nobody is capable of those spells, then nobody is aware of what's going on outside the material plane and the DM can simply ignore those places as though they didn't exist. Demons and angels only get to the material plane because they were summoned there by high level spellcasters, or they travel there to combat the ones that were summoned. Remove those high level spellcasters by using E6, and there are no powerful demons or angels on the material plane, ever.

Keep in mind that E6 allows some of those higher-level spells as rituals.