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Fruchtkracher
2009-12-11, 10:09 AM
why doesn't anyone mention raptorians?
If people DO mention them, often enough i hear they're terrible, with no explanation.
Does anyone care to enlighten me why they're supposed to be bad?
I mean they get (un)limited flight later on as a racial feature.
I think that definitely beats some lousy skill boni most other +0 LA races get, and raptorians get some on their own.
So I fail to see what makes them worse then, for example, halflings or elves.

Can anyone explain that to me?

hamishspence
2009-12-11, 10:20 AM
Flight can be gotten with spells- making it not such a useful ability for a race.

Cyclocone
2009-12-11, 10:24 AM
As was said, having flight as their only notable racial trait is insulting.

Gray Elf Wizards get a 40 ft. flight speed with average maneuverability for free at 9th level.

Zeta Kai
2009-12-11, 11:41 AM
PRO

They can glide right out of the box.
At 5HD, they can fly.


CON

IIRC, they have to fulfill some vision quest thing or somesuch before they can use their flight power.
A 5th-level Wizard (or 6th-level Sorcerer) could fly too, but with the need to go through some racial sidequest.
They don't have anything else really going for them. At least, nothing interesting.

So yeah. There you go.

Fruchtkracher
2009-12-11, 11:43 AM
though a tenth level raptorian wizard would have one more spell per day to cast i suppose. But what I meant, although flight isn't that important a race feature, their other boni aint worse then those of other races.
For example, the +10 to jumps checks alone should suffice to be at equal with most other races boni.

BenTheJester
2009-12-11, 11:52 AM
though a tenth level raptorian wizard would have one more spell per day to cast i suppose. But what I meant, although flight isn't that important a race feature, their other boni aint worse then those of other races.
For example, the +10 to jumps checks alone should suffice to be at equal with most other races boni.

I'll take a stat boost over +10 to jump anyday

Person_Man
2009-12-11, 11:53 AM
Also, flight poses some interesting metagame issues.

First, it's annoying to use with miniatures. I've found that the best way is to keep a die next to your figure with your character's height on it. But then you still need to calculate distance (thanks Pythagoras!) every time you want to make a ranged attack, or someone wants to make an attack against you.

Second, flight is basically useless in a dungeon with a low ceiling. So half the time, your racial ability is pointless.

Third, if you are fighting outside, it basically makes you immune to melee attacks from enemies who can't fly (assuming you're smart enough not to end your turn close to the ground). This adds a weird unbalancing factor to many combats, forcing your DM to alter all of his encounters just to specifically challenge your character.

Now, none of these things are game breaking. It's just annoying to have a PC that can fly all of the time.

Ichneumon
2009-12-11, 11:58 AM
The other problem is that fluff-wise, they aren't much interesting either, quite one-dimensional.

Their sole unique racial ability doesn't even make sense fluff-wise. How can it be that at one hand the race has a culture and city architecture that are completey based around the ability of flight, and at the other hand the race only really gets flight at like HD 5, which MOST NPCS will never reach.

Zom B
2009-12-11, 12:08 PM
boni aint

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7G6MkqiwSgg/ScEBqRLdESI/AAAAAAAAABQ/yd1WCIKYlZI/s320/HeadExplodeBig.gif


bo·nus (bō'nəs)
n. pl. bo·nus·es

JellyPooga
2009-12-11, 12:10 PM
The other problem is that fluff-wise, they aren't much interesting either, quite one-dimensional.

Their sole unique racial ability doesn't even make sense fluff-wise. How can it be that at one hand the race has a culture and city architecture that are completey based around the ability of flight, and at the other hand the race only really gets flight at like HD 5, which MOST NPCS will never reach.

Yeah, that always kinda bugged me about them...my personal opinion is that they should either fly (i.e. have a racial Fly Speed from the word go) or not...sure, put in some fluff about children only being able to glide or whatever, but if the race is as aerially adept as the fluff makes out surely all adults should be able to fly?

Amphetryon
2009-12-11, 12:10 PM
Raptoran Fighter substitution level is subpar to the Dungeoncrasher variant, and is one of the few reasons to play the Raptoran, crunch-wise. If you're in a game that: a) allows RotW; b) doesn't use CChampion; c) has a playstyle of "buff the fighter and sic him on the bad guy" and d) doesn't have convenient access to either wands or the various spells that grant flight, then Raptorans are a decent choice for a Fighter - and probably only a Fighter.

That seems like a lot of caveats to use when endorsing a race.

Zom B
2009-12-11, 12:13 PM
I made a flying race once and made it similar to a dragon's breath weapon: You can fly at a speed of 50' (average) for a number of rounds equal to your Con modifier + HD. At the end of every flight, you must rest for 1d4+1 rounds before flying again.

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-11, 12:18 PM
They do have the advantage of their flight being non-magical, so they can hang out in AMF's or avoid detect magic radar.

Draz74
2009-12-11, 12:24 PM
They do have the advantage of their flight being non-magical, so they can hang out in AMF's or avoid detect magic radar.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of them for this reason.

Raptorans are pretty good, in my experience, for characters that take Tome of Battle classes and/or Vow of Poverty.

Most characters that don't fit into either of those categories either don't need constant flight very much, or have better ways of getting it (spells). And let's be honest, Raptorans are pretty boring other than the flight (and +10 Jump, which is only interesting if you abuse it, e.g. Tiger Claw maneuvers).

sonofzeal
2009-12-11, 12:29 PM
Even after reading this thread, I have no problems with the Flight mechanic.


By level 10, there's plenty of other ways to have flight if you really want it. In my current party we've got someone who flies through a feat (Starspawn), through an Invocation (Fell Flight), through Wildshape (Dire Hawk), through a spell (Overland Flight), and through an item (Broom of Flying). Being a Raptoran, though, means you don't have to invest in those ways. Saving an Invocation known or a high level (at this point) spell per day, or a feat, or over a third of your WBL? That's probably worth it for a lot of characters. The only one that really makes it obsolete is Wildshape.

Now, at level 20 anyone can have flight, for only a minimal investment. But in my experience, most games hover in the level 3-12 range, and at those levels Flight is usually a substantial investment. Would you rather play a human who spent his racial feat on Starspawn, or a Raptoran? And, if Raptoran comes out ahead of spending a feat on it, we get a few other useful comparisons. Is a feat worth an extra Invocation of the top level you can use? How about 35% of your WBL?

Not everyone is a Wizard or Druid. And for those that aren't, and don't expect to be playing near-epic most of their career, Raptoran is an acceptable choice.

Rogue 7
2009-12-11, 12:43 PM
I know I had tons of fun playing a Raptoran. But we were playing a naval game- not a lot of dungeon crawling- and we were rather loose on the flight rules- I didn't try to abuse it, so my DM just let it slide. I didn't even fight in the air all that much- I simply felt like I wasn't doing enough damage, so I'd mix it up in melee (I was a ranger, btw). It was mainly useful for access to areas we didn't have- I had one shining moment where the DM had basically robbed us blind as part of a "most dangerous game"-type thing with a bunch of druids. We're walking down a gully when a druid drops a miniature landslide on us and then runs away. I immediately take off in pursuit and eviscerate him, even after he wildshaped, thanks to some good rolls. Wouldn't have been able to do that without wings.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-11, 06:08 PM
What people forget is the Footbow proficiency. That's the single best ranged weapon in the game, and it's exotic. Fully worth the EWP, which would be your human bonus feat as a serious archer. And it requires flight to use.

Tetsubo 57
2009-12-11, 06:19 PM
One thing I've thought of is to grant them the Glide ability at 1st level. They would still keep the Jump bonus. That at least gives them am 'avian' ability from the get go. I would also rebrand them as Kenkus, as I much prefer their look and background.

Zaq
2009-12-11, 06:35 PM
The big one is that it's nonmagical, as has already been addressed. It's rather trivial to dispel a fighter's item of flight for the duration of the encounter, and not impossible to do the same to a wizard (trickier, but doable, and how many wizards prep TWO overland flight spells every day?). Also, while AMFs are overstated by most people, they do exist. The fact that it can't be dispelled is really nice.

Is it a good tradeoff with, say, a human bonus feat, or a Duskling's CON boost and bonus essentia? Debatable. They're nowhere near overpowered, but they at least have SOME useful abilities, unlike, say, Elves, who are useless without the DCFS. I think they're a solid race, and they're especially nice on non-magical types (sure, the wizard is as good as it gets, but not everyone is a wizard).

nekomata2
2009-12-11, 07:48 PM
Yeah, that always kinda bugged me about them...my personal opinion is that they should either fly (i.e. have a racial Fly Speed from the word go) or not...sure, put in some fluff about children only being able to glide or whatever, but if the race is as aerially adept as the fluff makes out surely all adults should be able to fly?

Doesn't their racial sidequest last until they are capable of flight, i.e. 5th level?

FMArthur
2009-12-11, 11:24 PM
It's just not consistently useful like so many other racial abilities. Sometimes it lets you keep out of reach of melee-only monsters. It also makes you the easiest target for every ranged enemy in sight if you fly above the battle, though. The main thing it was useful for in both campaigns I've been in with one was just noncombat problem-solving. And it really was useful for that. But its combat advantages are far more situational than one would think before seeing it in action.

JellyPooga
2009-12-11, 11:44 PM
Doesn't their racial sidequest last until they are capable of flight, i.e. 5th level?

Yeah, kind of...but when you consider that (according to the DMG rules on creating a settlement) something like 90% of any settlements population is level 1 to 3 Commoners and Experts, you begin to realise just how ridiculous the Raptorans, as written, are. The fluff just doesn't match the mechanics. Most Raptorans can't fly and never learn to, yet their entire culture revolves around them being able to.

If the race can only largely fly once it has reached its 5th HD because younger members of society have to go on a quest to 'find their wings' (so to speak) then this is usually represented by the race having Racial HD and the Racial-Quest-of-Learning-to-Fly is assumed to be part of the individuals childhood. The way they have Raptorans pegged, it's obvious they wanted Flying Elves without a LA, but didn't know quite how to balance them. What they ended up with is a society that lives an aerial lifestyle but has a tendancy to fall out of the trees every now and then.

taltamir
2009-12-12, 12:11 AM
not only is non magical flight not dispellable, waiting until level 9 to get flight means you spend most of your career, specifically, your squishiest days, unable to fly.

I wouldn't say the DM has to do it just for you, flight is an ESSENTIAL ability of every arcane caster.
Overland flight is a level 5 spell. So "duplicate a level 5 spell buff as always on and immune to ASF and dispel" is quite a heck of a class feature for an LA +0 race.