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Real Sorceror
2009-12-13, 05:23 AM
Heres a half-dozen epic feats I wrote up the other day. Hopefully they aren't too unwieldy. Although I created the mechanics, most of these are inspired by suggestions made on the Dicefreaks forums (although I know for a fact that several versions of Immediate Spell have appeared in other works). Basically just looking for critic and any suggestions for other such feats.
Note: These where made with the assumption that you are using the Pathfinder core rules, so certain things are a little different. For one, save or die spells have been nixed.

Iterative Spell
Perquisites: Quicken Spell, Caster Level 20+
Benefit: You may use a Full-Round Action to cast multiple spells at a progressively lower caster level, similar to making a Full Attack. Each spell after the first is cast at a -5 CL. This stacks, so that the third spell is cast at -10 CL and the fourth at -15 CL. The reduction in caster level affects all aspects of the spell, including its damage, range, and ability to overcome spell resistance. You may not cast more than 4 spells per round in this fashion, even if your caster level would allow more, though you may still cast a Quickened Spell.

Immediate Spell [metamagic]
Perquisites: Quicken Spell, Caster Level 20+
Benefit: You may use an Immediate Action (expending your Swift Action for the round) to cast a spell modified by this feat. This increases the slot used by 6.

Eternal Spell [metamagic]
Perquisites: Persistent Spell, Caster Level 20+
Benefit: The spell duration is permanent until it is either dispelled or the caster chooses to dismiss it. This increases the slot used by 4. This feat cannot be applied to spells with a duration of instantaneous.

Storm Spell [metamagic]
Perquisites: Repeat Spell, Caster Level 30+
Benefit: After the spell affects its initial target, it persists for a number of rounds equal to its level, each round creating a copy of itself which last for the same duration as the original. The copies do not create more copies, but cast their affect each round on targets specified by the caster when the original spell is cast. Viable targets include all of the creatures in a room, everyone in range except designated allies, or everyone within range holding a sword or belonging to a specific race. This increases the spell's slot used by 8.

Supernal Spell [metamagic]
Perquisites: Ability to cast 10th level or higher spells
Benefit: You may empower a spell with the ability to overcome the immunities of divine beings. The spell is considered to have a rank equal to half its spell level (rounded down, minimum 1) for the purposes of making rank checks against the Power's resistances and immunities. Each time such a spell is cast (but not when it is initially prepared), it temporarily drains 2 Constitution from the caster.

Everseeking Spell [metamagic]
Perquisites: Transdimensional Spell, Caster Level 20+
Benefit: An Everseeking spell ignores all miss chance (but not divine miss chance, unless it is also a Supernal Spell) and affects targets that have shifted to the Ethereal, Astral, and Shadow planes normally (such as via shadow jump or ethereal jaunt). If the spell fails to affect its target, it persists for a number of rounds equal to it's spell level, each round attempting to affect the target again. The spell can even move outside of its own range in order to follow its victim. This increases the spell's slot by 5.

Rebounding Spell [metamagic]
Perquisites: Chain Spell, Caster Level 20+
Benefit: After successfully striking the initial target, the spell continues, striking the next viable target within range (using the previous target as its new origin). It continues to cast itself until there are no other targets, the spell misses, or a target succeeds on its saving throw. This increases the spell slot used by 5.

Secondary Spell
Perquisites: Caster Level 20+
Benefit: At the time of casting a spell (or when preparing spells for the day) that requires a Reflex save to avoid, the caster may choose a second area or targeted spell to attach to the first . This spell may be no greater than half the level of the primary spell, and cannot be a damaging affect. If a target succeeds on their save against the primary spell, they are then subject to the secondary affect at the same DC. If, however, they fail their save against the initial affect, they are automatically affected by the secondary spell with no save or spell resistance. (ex. a Fireball with Sleep attached)

Frog Dragon
2009-12-13, 05:59 AM
This kind of stuff would actually make for a pretty good replacement for the broken-as-hell epic magic system. But I'd like to point out that these are easy as pie to get Pre-epic. Caster Level bonuses aren't hard to find. Give them skill rank prequisites like at least 24 ranks in spellcraft. That will be extremely hard to overcome.

Random_person
2009-12-13, 06:01 AM
Although it has been done. It is possible to get as high as 27 ranks pre-epic.

Frog Dragon
2009-12-13, 06:03 AM
I know Dusk Giants. But there really isn't a better alternative. It's just that caster level increasers aren't even that cheesy, but no GM would allow the Dusk Giant trick. Ever.

Random_person
2009-12-13, 06:07 AM
True. Just playing devil's advocate. Anyway, these look awesome, and don't have as much of a power snap as does the current system. As it is, the casters hit 24th and say "Right. Who was this Pun-pun person? I'll take him by turning into him and creating a million clones of him as well." This produces a much smoother transition.

peacenlove
2009-12-13, 06:22 AM
You need to specify that permanent spell works only on spells that are not instantaneous (for example how would a permanent fireball work? ).
Other than that they look ok to me (Although i would dread to see a Storm or an everseeking spell rebounded by spell turning :smallbiggrin:)

Real Sorceror
2009-12-13, 04:41 PM
Thanks for the comments. I did change the wording on Eternal Spell. I unfortunately auto-assume that people will play responsibly, so thats why some of the lawyer-speech was left out of the feats. :smallwink:

I forgot to mention that these feats are intended for Pathfinder's version of 3rd edition, so some of the old 3.5 cheese doesn't exist in their core rules. The DM would need to convert over things like the Dusk Giant (I hadn't even thought of them).

It was an almost unanimous decision at DF that we can the old epic spellcasting rules, so things like cooler meta-feats became necessary.

jokey665
2009-12-13, 04:45 PM
These are pretty cool. I'm basically doing a rewrite of the entire epic system (the biggest change is probably epic spellcasting, as-written it's gone and replaced by 10th, 11th, etc level spells), and these are definitely something I'll consider for new feats.

Milskidasith
2009-12-13, 05:55 PM
Iterative Spell

Perquisites: Quicken Spell, Caster Level 20+
Benefit: You may use a Full-Round Action to cast multiple spells at a progressively lower caster level, similar to making a Full Attack. Each spell after the first is cast at a -5 CL. This stacks, so that the third spell is cast at -10 CL and the fourth at -15 CL. The reduction in caster level affects all aspects of the spell, including its damage, range, and ability to overcome spell resistance. You may not cast more than 4 spells per round in this fashion, even if your caster level would allow more, though you may still cast a Quickened Spell.

Broken for buffs, still broken for save or dies (though SR is almost a problem) and not that useful for blasting. Poor blasting. It sucks even in a rewrite.


Immediate Spell [metamagic]
Perquisites: Quicken Spell, Caster Level 20+
Benefit: You may use an Immediate Action (expending your Swift Action for the round) to cast a spell modified by this feat. This increases the slot used by 6.

Contingency or Celerity (or hell, Contingent Celerity) do this better.


Eternal Spell [metamagic]
Perquisites: Persistent Spell, Caster Level 20+
Benefit: The spell duration is permanent until it is either dispelled or the caster chooses to dismiss it. This increases the slot used by 6. This feat cannot be applied to spells with a duration of instantaneous.

Permanency already does exactly this, there's no point in making this metamagic (and at the same cost as persistent, it's a bit oddly priced.)


Storm Spell [metamagic]
Perquisites: Twin Spell, Caster Level 30+
Benefit: After the spell affects its initial target, it persists for a number of rounds equal to its level, each round creating a copy of itself which last for the same duration as the original. The copies do not create more copies, but cast their affect each round on targets specified by the caster when the original spell is cast. Viable targets include all of the creatures in a room, everyone in range except designated allies, or everyone within range holding a sword or belonging to a specific race. This increases the spell's slot used by 8.

Is the level it persists the modified level or the basic level? If it's the modified level, it's useful, if it's the original level, it's pretty crappy because you won't have the spell slots for anything good anyway, and multispell is just plain better. Repeat, not Twin, should be the prerequisite, by the way.


Supernal Spell [metamagic]
Perquisites: Ability to cast 10th level or higher spells
Benefit: You may empower a spell with the ability to overcome the immunities of Powers and similar beings. The spell is considered to have a rank equal to half its spell level (rounded down, minimum 1) for the purposes of making rank checks against the Power's resistances and immunities. Each time such a spell is cast (but not when it is initially prepared), it temporarily drains 2 Constitution from the caster.

What is a Power? The only Power I know in D&D are psionic powers.


Everseeking Spell [metamagic]
Perquisites: Transdimensional Spell, Caster Level 20+
Benefit: An Everseeking spell ignores all miss chance (but not divine miss chance, unless it is also a Supernal Spell) and affects targets that have shifted to the Ethereal, Astral, and Shadow planes normally (such as via shadow jump or ethereal jaunt). If the spell fails to affect its target, it persists for a number of rounds equal to it's spell level, each round attempting to affect the target again. The spell can even move outside of its own range in order to follow its victim. This increases the spell's slot by 5.

So you get to cast a save or die that hits a ton? This is exactly the same as storm spell, but with the added benefit of ignoring miss chance and having a lower slot.


Rebounding Spell [metamagic]
Perquisites: Chain Spell, Caster Level 20+
Benefit: After successfully striking the initial target, the spell continues, striking the next viable target within range (using the previous target as its new origin). It continues to cast itself until there are no other targets, the spell misses, or a target succeeds on its saving throw. This increases the spell slot used by 5.

Use with an "it just hits" spell means autodeath to all. Magic Missile, for instance.


Secondary Spell
Perquisites: Caster Level 20+
Benefit: At the time of casting a spell (or when preparing spells for the day) that requires a Reflex save to avoid, the caster may choose a second area or targeted spell to attach to the first . This spell may be no greater than half the level of the primary spell, and cannot be a damaging affect. If a target succeeds on their save against the primary spell, they are then subject to the secondary affect at the same DC. If, however, they fail their save against the initial affect, they are automatically affected by the secondary spell with no save or spell resistance. (ex. a Fireball with Sleep attached)

There's no price for this.

Real Sorceror
2009-12-14, 03:19 PM
Broken for buffs, still broken for save or dies (though SR is almost a problem) and not that useful for blasting. Poor blasting. It sucks even in a rewrite.
Pathfinder doesn't have any save or die spells (Finger of Death and such now just deal damage) except for Holy Word, Blasphemy, etc. And really, if the enemies are 10 levels below the epic party, they where dead anyway. I don't really see how its broken for buffs. Its really just reducing the time it takes to buff.

Contingency or Celerity (or hell, Contingent Celerity) do this better.
That requires planning ahead and naming a specific trigger.

Permanency already does exactly this, there's no point in making this metamagic (and at the same cost as persistent, it's a bit oddly priced.)
I admit the cost is probably too high. Permanency has a specific list of spells that can be made permanent, so I felt a feat like this was needed.

Is the level it persists the modified level or the basic level? If it's the modified level, it's useful, if it's the original level, it's pretty crappy because you won't have the spell slots for anything good anyway, and multispell is just plain better. Repeat, not Twin, should be the prerequisite, by the way.
We're dropping multispell out of the game (another reason I made the Iterative spell feat). I haven't decided whether it should go off the modified or base yet. Casters will naturally have higher level slots, possibly 14th level or better at later levels. Good point on the Repeat spell.


What is a Power? The only Power I know in D&D are psionic powers.
My bad, I was using Dicefreaks lingo. A Power is a deity or similar being.


So you get to cast a save or die that hits a ton? This is exactly the same as storm spell, but with the added benefit of ignoring miss chance and having a lower slot.
Sorry, I should have made it clear that we where using Pathfinder. Storm spell is actually casting the spell multiple times, whereas Everseeking is only hitting once. It retries until it succeeds or ends.

Use with an "it just hits" spell means autodeath to all. Magic Missile, for instance.
Are there any higher level auto-hits besides Magic Missile? 5d4+5 won't kill anyone at epic level, unless you want to wipe out a Goblin village. Also, it has to be within the spells range, so it will eventually stop even if casts on a large group of weak foes.

There's no price for this.
I haven't come up with one yet, but it will cost something.

Milskidasith
2009-12-14, 03:34 PM
Pathfinder doesn't have any save or die spells (Finger of Death and such now just deal damage) except for Holy Word, Blasphemy, etc. And really, if the enemies are 10 levels below the epic party, they where dead anyway. I don't really see how its broken for buffs. Its really just reducing the time it takes to buff.

The action economy in the game is king. Being able to break it and get spells just as useful as before is broken. You didn't make it clear you were using Pathfinder, either. Plus, caster level increases make it trivial, at epic levels, to have a CL of far above your level, unless Holy Word was rewritten based on HD. Plus... there are still save or dies, no? Hold Person, Sleep, Prismatic Spray, etc? It doesn't have to explicitly kill; anything that prevents action and allows a CDG is a save or die.


That requires planning ahead and naming a specific trigger.

When I say "Flarblejarblemcwizardistan", activate *insert spell.* Talking is a free action that can be done out of turn.


I admit the cost is probably too high. Permanency has a specific list of spells that can be made permanent, so I felt a feat like this was needed.

IIRC, any spell can be made permanent; the list was just examples and their cost.


We're dropping multispell out of the game (another reason I made the Iterative spell feat). I haven't decided whether it should go off the modified or base yet. Casters will naturally have higher level slots, possibly 14th level or better at later levels. Good point on the Repeat spell.


Fair enough, and the houserules make it better.


My bad, I was using Dicefreaks lingo. A Power is a deity or similar being.

The feat is weaksauce then, especially considering you can take out rank 20 deities in a tag team at level 20.


Sorry, I should have made it clear that we where using Pathfinder. Storm spell is actually casting the spell multiple times, whereas Everseeking is only hitting once. It retries until it succeeds or ends.

Well, with no true save or dies it's not as bad... except I assume sleep, hold person, and the like still exist, and those are save or dies. Getting to have, say, Hold Person: Mass make 9 checks is pretty broken, because the enemy will fail, and you will CDG them.


Are there any higher level auto-hits besides Magic Missile? 5d4+5 won't kill anyone at epic level, unless you want to wipe out a Goblin village. Also, it has to be within the spells range, so it will eventually stop even if casts on a large group of weak foes.

The way it is worded appears to be "it keeps casting until there are no targets" which seems to imply it could bounce between two people eternally.


I haven't come up with one yet, but it will cost something.


It's fierce if you toss on enervation or energy drain (since I assume you can't metamagic the secondary effect, though if you could enervation is strictly better).

Stycotl
2009-12-14, 04:09 PM
IIRC, any spell can be made permanent; the list was just examples and their cost.

nope.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm

that said, this should actually be more costly than persistent spell. or persistent spell needs to be cheaper.


The feat is weaksauce then, especially considering you can take out rank 20 deities in a tag team at level 20.

you are using weak deities and uber optimized parties for a trick like that. that hardly makes this feat weak. it is pretty damn easy to make a rank 0 demigod a handful for epic characters, and that is just with normal class levels and normal optimization.

however, i think that the "The spell is considered to have a rank equal to half its spell level" clause is suspicious. i am not sure that it should be that high, though i will admit that any lower makes it fairly unusable in many circumstances.

Milskidasith
2009-12-14, 05:43 PM
you are using weak deities and uber optimized parties for a trick like that. that hardly makes this feat weak. it is pretty damn easy to make a rank 0 demigod a handful for epic characters, and that is just with normal class levels and normal optimization.

I merely use the deities as statted out. Granted, you could make a Deity that's exactly the same as the party wizard(s), cleric(s), druid(s), and sorcerer(s) but with 20 divine ranks and enough levels of factotum to get more standard actions than you can count, but using a by-the-books Deity usually involves them getting smashed.


however, i think that the "The spell is considered to have a rank equal to half its spell level" clause is suspicious. i am not sure that it should be that high, though i will admit that any lower makes it fairly unusable in many circumstances.


That means that an epic character has to drain two points of constitution (and drain is permanent, although it says temporary drain, with no duration, and it's easy enough to be immune to it) and their highest level spell slot to affect a mid-level lesser deity. Not that amazing.

Real Sorceror
2009-12-15, 01:15 AM
The action economy in the game is king. Being able to break it and get spells just as useful as before is broken. You didn't make it clear you were using Pathfinder, either. Plus, caster level increases make it trivial, at epic levels, to have a CL of far above your level, unless Holy Word was rewritten based on HD. Plus... there are still save or dies, no? Hold Person, Sleep, Prismatic Spray, etc? It doesn't have to explicitly kill; anything that prevents action and allows a CDG is a save or die.
We're talking epic here. Half, if not all, epic CR creatures will be immune to or have resistance to Sleep, paralysis, etc, or be immune to Hold Person.

When I say "Flarblejarblemcwizardistan", activate *insert spell.* Talking is a free action that can be done out of turn.
Its my understanding that Contingency requires you to specify it ahead of time, not at the time you want it to trigger. At best, you'd cast your contingency the round before. Immediate spell is allowing you to do things when its not your turn, as soon as they come up, allowing you to react to things that you didn't plan for.

The feat is weaksauce then, especially considering you can take out rank 20 deities in a tag team at level 20.
Sure, if you're using the crippled Deities and Demigods stuff. Dicefreaks has real deity rules, and I personally use the Immortal's Handbook: Ascension. In either case, no 20th level party could ever, ever take down a greater god, even if they caught him asleep, unless they had Plot Device A or they where all playing Pun-Pun.

Well, with no true save or dies it's not as bad... except I assume sleep, hold person, and the like still exist, and those are save or dies. Getting to have, say, Hold Person: Mass make 9 checks is pretty broken, because the enemy will fail, and you will CDG them.
Pit Feinds and Force Dragons and Tarrasques do not go down to Hold Person, and they don't really care much for CDG, either.

The way it is worded appears to be "it keeps casting until there are no targets" which seems to imply it could bounce between two people eternally.
Thats a very valid point. I'll need to reword it. Its only meant to affect each individual once.

It's fierce if you toss on enervation or energy drain (since I assume you can't metamagic the secondary effect, though if you could enervation is strictly better).
True that. I'll take that into consideration and maybe only allow certain spells to be secondary.

Milskidasith
2009-12-15, 07:23 AM
We're talking epic here. Half, if not all, epic CR creatures will be immune to or have resistance to Sleep, paralysis, etc, or be immune to Hold Person.

Those were examples. Any single "Save or suck" effect can be multicasted with this, and if the creature doesn't have SR, it's screwed. It still breaks the action economy for buffing.


Its my understanding that Contingency requires you to specify it ahead of time, not at the time you want it to trigger. At best, you'd cast your contingency the round before. Immediate spell is allowing you to do things when its not your turn, as soon as they come up, allowing you to react to things that you didn't plan for.

Please reread my post and tell me where I said I didn't specify a trigger. The trigger would be "I say 'flarbitygibblet a wizard did it'" or something else that's incredibly unlikely to come up in a normal conversation, and use a free action out of turn to activate my contingency.


Pit Feinds and Force Dragons and Tarrasques do not go down to Hold Person, and they don't really care much for CDG, either.


Actually, Pit Fiends and Tarrasques both have no immunity to Hold Person (well, Hold Monster, anyway), so... yeah, they do. It's a OHKO. Even a wizard with a scythe can force a mean save or die on a held person with a CDG.

Eldan
2009-12-15, 07:44 AM
These look pretty cool. NOw, they probably still require balance, but other people can help you better with those than I can. Instead, I'm mostly here to tell you that, actually, someone else already made something similar, perhaps you can get a few ideas here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37410)

Real Sorceror
2009-12-15, 06:19 PM
These look pretty cool. NOw, they probably still require balance, but other people can help you better with those than I can. Instead, I'm mostly here to tell you that, actually, someone else already made something similar, perhaps you can get a few ideas here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37410)
Actually, I've seen those before but as part of a bigger list of epic feats. Some of these where a little OP or a little wordy, but theres definitely good ideas there.