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Withoutpurpose
2009-12-13, 11:09 AM
So, pure-bred fighters are no good, huh?

I made this pure-bred and, well, he kicks-ass and all your fighter halfbreed/bastards can do nothing to keep up with him :smallcool: (I exclude all ToB classes because frankly, they are 3.75, not 3.5

Lvl 15 Fighter: stats: str 18(24 with belt of giant str +6) dex 13 con 17 wis 14 int 13 cha 11.

Attack: 27/22/17 +1 keen falchion. dmg 2d4 +17. crit 15-20 x2.
Full PA: 12/7/2 dmg 2d4 + 47

So, I mostly only used 5 points in power attack but sometimes I did up to 100 dmg in one hit! (full PA). But wait, it gets better
AC 27 (optional 32 with CE). Full plate +2, Ring of protection +4.
A grapple modifier of 22/30 to resist grapple.
+4 fast healing for 13 rounds.
Saves: For 15, Ref 8, Wil 9/13 (Cloak of Resistance +3)

It's your turn to ask: How? Feats and more feats, WF, WS, GWF, GWS (what the fighter does best, one weapon man :smallwink:) Combat Focus, Combat Vigor and Combat can't-remember-at-the-moment... Well, all of those feats are in PHII. Heavy armor optimization, Greater heavy armor optimization, both found in RoS, PA, Cleave, CE, Slashing flurry (PHII, completely pointless but charge and get 2 attacks, not so bad).

oh, and also 149 HP

Comon, give me your best shot :smallbiggrin:

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-13, 11:11 AM
Now, please understand that when I say this, I mean no offense whatsoever, but are you joking?

Mongoose87
2009-12-13, 11:13 AM
How is this remarkable? An Ubercharger could make that kind of damage output look rather pedestrian.

Ryumaru
2009-12-13, 11:13 AM
It's your turn to ask: How? Feats and more feats, WF, WS, GWF, GWS (what the fighter does best, one weapon man )

That's always confused me; Fighters are the ones pretty much forced to pick one weapon and stick with it, whereas the fluff I recall says the exact opposite. Something along the lines of 'they're masters of combat in all forms'


So, I mostly only used 5 points in power attack but sometimes I did up to 100 dmg in one hit! (full PA). But wait, it gets better


I'm a terrible optimizer, but from what I've seen, that's pretty weak-sauce. Pick up the feat which lets you use AC insted of BAB for Power Attack, the feat which lets you get something like x4 per point of AC lost, and I seem to recall numbers in the region of 300 before level 15.

Withoutpurpose
2009-12-13, 11:26 AM
300? really? Wow, that's quite amazing! It's just that I was kinda good in everything, (not bad AC, not bad BAB, not bad dmg) but I'm not really that good at focusing on only on thing and min-maxing that up the wazoo.

But how does one get up to 300?

erikun
2009-12-13, 11:28 AM
Hold on, I'll make up a Psychic Warrior real quick for you. :smallcool:

snoopy13a
2009-12-13, 11:30 AM
Here's my "greatest fighter" build:

Fighter 1/Wizard 19 :smallsmile:

Mongoose87
2009-12-13, 11:34 AM
Here's my "greatest fighter" build:

Fighter 1/Wizard 19 :smallsmile:
Too much fighter.

Grumman
2009-12-13, 11:34 AM
Killoren Light Cavalry Scout 6 / Mounted Combat Ranger 6 / Wild Plains Outrider 3

With Power Attack, EWP: harpoon, Quick Draw, Hurling Charge, Improved Skirmish, Swift Hunter and Devoted Tracker.

If you move like a whale, don't be surprised when you're treated like one. I hope you like Valorous harpoons. :smallbiggrin:

Sliver
2009-12-13, 11:35 AM
You aren't playing in an optimized campaign are you?

AC 27/32 at level 32 doesn't sound that great, and WF, WS and such are pretty bad feats with a minor bonus.. And sure, not bad BAB, because fighters get good BAB, hard to optimize that one :smalltongue:

Demons_eye
2009-12-13, 11:35 AM
*Snip*

Warblade level 15

Stats: Str:20 Dex:20 Con: 16 Int:16 Wis: 8 Cha: 8

Ragging mongoose, Blood in the water.

2 +1(5) Tigerclaw Kukri

Feats:TWF ITWF GTWF WF GWF (to off set TWF)

Attack bonus +27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+22/+17 +27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+22/+17


I grabbed leadership for a cleric

Ryumaru
2009-12-13, 11:37 AM
300? really? Wow, that's quite amazing! It's just that I was kinda good in everything, (not bad AC, not bad BAB, not bad dmg) but I'm not really that good at focusing on only on thing and min-maxing that up the wazoo.

But how does one get up to 300?

Eh, I'm horrid with the mechanics (I'd take 2 in loads of skills over extra Power Attack damage and stuff. ^^'), but it works somewhat off some feat combination and charging. You get in the region of +5 damage per -1, that minus comes from AC insted of BAB, so you have +20 BAB attscks with about +100 damage, and the AC tends not to matter so much (In my real life game, AC seems to slowly lose ground to huge amounts of HP by about 8th level), and some other stuff.

Mongoose87
2009-12-13, 11:42 AM
Eh, I'm horrid with the mechanics (I'd take 2 in loads of skills over extra Power Attack damage and stuff. ^^'), but it works somewhat off some feat combination and charging. You get in the region of +5 damage per -1, that minus comes from AC insted of BAB, so you have +20 BAB attscks with about +100 damage, and the AC tends not to matter so much (In my real life game, AC seems to slowly lose ground to huge amounts of HP by about 8th level), and some other stuff.

Power Attack + Improved Bullrush => Shock Trooper - Subtract from AC instead of BaB on power attack, but only when charging.

Then, you take

Leap Attack - Multiply Power Attack damage times 2, if you cover 10 feet in the air. Multiplies x3 for two handed weapons.

In essence, with a two-hander, your trade is
1AC = 6 Point of damage.

Withoutpurpose
2009-12-13, 11:46 AM
I know that Frenzied Berserker gets something of that sort with PA, but considering the high-probability of a TPK with a Frenzied Berserker in your group then I don't think it's worth it :smalltongue:

And yes, the Warblade... that class is no hax at all. none at all. nada. zip.

The AC does seem to get worse after about 8th lvl - unless you take Improved combat expertise and such :smallsmile:

Mongoose87
2009-12-13, 11:49 AM
I know that Frenzied Berserker gets something of that sort with PA, but considering the high-probability of a TPK with a Frenzied Berserker in your group then I don't think it's worth it :smalltongue:

And yes, the Warblade... that class is no hax at all. none at all. nada. zip.

The AC does seem to get worse after about 8th lvl - unless you take Improved combat expertise and such :smallsmile:

Combat Expertise costs you your precious BaB, which is nice for doing the only thing fighters can do - stabbing things.

Warblade is not hax when you consider a Wizard can do anything it can do, better.

Weezer
2009-12-13, 11:50 AM
Okay I'll start with a fighter with your stats:

Lvl 15 Fighter: stats: str 18(24 with belt of giant str +6) dex 13 con 17 wis 14 int 13 cha 11.

Weapon: +1 valorious (UE) greatsword

Important feats:
power attack
Leap attack (CA)
Improved Bullrush
Shock Trooper

On the charge you PA for full, do a leap attack, transfer the minus to attack to a minus to AC using storm trooper, get double damage from valorious. Your attack comes out to: AB:+25 Damage: (7( avg for greatsword)+1+10(str)+15*2*3(PA and leap attack))*2(valorious)= ~218
Not quite the 300 damage promised but just what I threw together quickly using just vanilla fighter 15.
Using dungeoncrasher fighter (DS) it would add 8d6+21 damage if the enemy is within bullrushing distance of a wall or other enemy. a one level dip into lion totem (CC) barbarian with whirling frenzy (UA) would give you an attack sequence of 23/23/18/13 all of which could do that amount damage.

Ryumaru
2009-12-13, 11:53 AM
I know that Frenzied Berserker gets something of that sort with PA, but considering the high-probability of a TPK with a Frenzied Berserker in your group then I don't think it's worth it

And yes, the Warblade... that class is no hax at all. none at all. nada. zip.

The AC does seem to get worse after about 8th lvl - unless you take Improved combat expertise and such

And then you're just overly gimping yourself there, from my experience. When you start getting giants, and things with Strength in the 30's, they'll still hit you 70% of the time, and smack you for huge chunks. While you ineffectively flail at their superior Natural Armour.

Dixieboy
2009-12-13, 11:54 AM
Combat Expertise costs you your precious BaB, which is nice for doing the only thing fighters can do - stabbing things.

Warblade is not hax when you consider a Wizard can do anything it can do, better.

End the universe?

Ernir
2009-12-13, 11:54 AM
But how does one get up to 300?

It is easiest to do it by charging, PA-ing for full, having things that mitigate the attack bonus penalty, and things that multiply your damage under certain conditions.

Take a look at things like... Leap Attack (complete adventurer, multiplies your PA damage), Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior, allows you to take penalties to your AC rather than your attack rolls), Valorous weapons (Unapprochable East, if I recall).
The Spirited Charge line of feats in the PHB is rather superior to the Weapon Focus line, too.


It's just that I was kinda good in everything, (not bad AC, not bad BAB, not bad dmg) but I'm not really that good at focusing on only on thing and min-maxing that up the wazoo.
One of the problems with Fighters is that they make very poor jacks of all trades. =/

They can do real impressive stuff. But that means pouring all your resources into it.

Eloel
2009-12-13, 11:55 AM
I'm willing to bet that it's possible to beat that fighter with a straight L15 Monk, without UMD.

Demons_eye
2009-12-13, 11:58 AM
The ultimate friend for melee fighters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026)


I'm willing to bet that it's possible to beat that fighter with a straight L15 Monk, without UMD.

Them fighting words, though I would love to see the monk get some street cred

Withoutpurpose
2009-12-13, 12:02 PM
Nice :smallsmile: This all sounds great! I gotta try this built for my next fighter.

Thank you all for great ideas, keep'em coming also!

Warblades not overpowered? How can you possibly argue for that? the ToB is the only supplement I won't go into because it's just too much!

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 12:03 PM
Simple Chain Fighter has you beat on all fronts. And he's not especially effective. Here's a 32pb Human Fighter (your PB seems much higher...) using WBL that has you beat on all counts:

Starting stats:
18 Str (+3 level-ups)
13 Dex
14 Con
13 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha

1: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain
3: Power Attack
4: Improved Bull Rush
6: Shock Trooper, Leap Attack
8: Resolute (ACF)
9: Martial Study: Foehammer
10: Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades
12: Robilar's Gambit, Mage Slayer
14: Pierce Magical Concealment
15: Defensive Sweep

WBL 200000gp:
+6 Str (36k), +4 Con (16k), +6 Dex (36k)
Mithril Full-Plate +3 (19.7k)
Animated Mithril Heavy Steel Shield +1 (10k)
Boots of Speed (12k)
Ring of Pro +2 (2k)
Amulet of Nat Armor +1 (2k)
+1 Valorous Spiked Chain (8k)
Ring of Blinking (27k)
Cloak of Resistance +3 (9k)
Winged Vest (12k)
Permanencied Enlarge Person (4k)
Heward's Handy Haversack (2k)
Scout's Headband (3.4k)
Potions and crap

So, stats:
29 Str (Enlarged; 27 otherwise)
17 Dex (Enlarged; 19 otherwise)
18 Con
13 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha

To Hit: 15+9 Str+1 Weapon+2 Invisible-1 Size = +26; Hasted +27, Charge +29. Ignores miss chances from magic, opponents flat-footed.
Damage: 2d4+14 (2x on Charge)
AC: 10 + 3 Dex + 11 Armor + 3 Shield + 1 Ring + 1 Amulet (+1 Haste) - 1 Large = 28 (29)
50% miss chance from all attacks.
Saves: +16 Fort, +11 Ref, +8 Will (but +7 more from Resolute as an immediate action, so +15)
HP: 147 by average (10+5.5*14 for levels +15*4 Con)

Now, that's not amazing. However, that's because we're not accounting for what he does yet. First of all, as a Large character with Improved Trip and Spiked Chain, he can trip any target within 20' reach at +17 on the opposed check. That's sufficient even against most Huge creatures.

Further, any movement within his threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity, as does any attack against him and casting spells, and he threatens both reach, and adjacent. Also, anyone who doesn't move next to him (due to e.g. Trip) provokes as do 5' steps and Tumbling and such. This means anyone within 20' of him is pretty fcked. Trip is nice 'cause it gives the target -4 penalty to attacks and AC so it's a huge disadvantage even if able to attack.

Your Fighter, even Enlarged, couldn't even get to attack him ever due to lacking reach. Same goes for most opponents, though Gargantuans and Colossals are of course untrippable.


Now, when he wants to deal damage, he Charges. He takes penalty to AC instead of To Hit, and fortunately has Ring of Blinking to ensure that he still has decent defenses (and Pierce Magical Concealment to ignore the miss chance).

Thanks to Leap Attack, he'll get doubled PA returns, for a total of +60 to damage. Composite being (2d4+74)*2 damage in one attack.


Now, this is a straight-classed Fighter. Replace the last level of Fighter with Barbarian and the build becomes MUCH better; Pounce means you don't make just one attack, but 4 attacks (thanks to Haste) at:

+29/+29/+24/+19 for (2d4+74)*2 each.

And then he gains the ability to Whirling Frenzy for yet another extra attack, dealing over 300 points of damage on the charge (well, 79*2*5 or 790). Also note that thanks to Ring of Blinking, he attacks as Invisible getting +2 to all attacks and opponents being Flat-Footed.

His Grapple-modifier would be 15+9+4 or +29. Raging, +31. He also flies and thanks to Blinking, he can just blink through solid matter to get out of Grapple if really necessary.

Mongoose87
2009-12-13, 12:05 PM
Nice :smallsmile: This all sounds great! I gotta try this built for my next fighter.

Thank you all for great ideas, keep'em coming also!

Warblades not overpowered? How can you possibly argue for that? the ToB is the only supplement I won't go into because it's just too much!

A Druid has a fighter as a class feature. A Cleric has a spell that makes him a better fighter than the fighter, and retains spellcasting. A wizard can Polymorph, Gate in Solars, Disintegrate, Save or Die, Save or Suck (list goes on)...

A Warblade is better at stabbing things than a fighter. Yeah, he's sure overpowered.

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 12:09 PM
Warblades not overpowered? How can you possibly argue for that? the ToB is the only supplement I won't go into because it's just too much!

Have you seen what a decently played spellcaster can do? It blows Warblade out of the water. Your Fighter would never get a chance to even attack 'em and my Fighter wouldn't fare much better in spite of 20' reach, ability to charge for over 700 damage, opponent being unable to cast defensively in my threatened area AND me ignoring concealment.

See the Wizard 13 vs. Fighter 20s in our Play-By-Post section, for example. Thanks to Contingencies, defensive spells and their offense, a level 13 Wizard has a level 20 Fighter and his wealth-by-level beat (albeit thanks to so much money advantage (110k vs. 760k), the Fighter has a chance). But he doesn't win by buffing his To Hit or damage.

kjones
2009-12-13, 12:09 PM
Now, this is a straight-classed Fighter.

Technically true, but I see Martial Study and Martial Stance in there. If we're disregarding ToB for the sake of argument, this isn't really fair. (Because if we're using ToB... then we just make a Warblade, who will kick this guy's ass six ways to Sunday.)

Note that I'm not defending Withoutpurpose's build - it's mediocre at best. But I don't think we need to resort to ToB to come up with a better fighter.

Eloel
2009-12-13, 12:11 PM
Them fighting words, though I would love to see the monk get some street cred

The most direct way, that can't be argued against, is getting feats like Dash, and increasing speed. Add to that Dodge (!), Mobility (!!) and Spring Attack, and a bunch of ranks in Tumble, and you're looking at someone who can come in for over 60ft (your charge range w/o Heavy Armor), attack you (once. Better than 0 you're getting), and get out of your charge range.

There're 5+ methods of winning vs this fighter with the said monk, including;

The above method.
Shuriken, a safe distance, and Deflect Arrows.
TWF Vorpal Scorpion Kamas, preferably while Greater Invisible by an item.
Over 46 AC, with the PA-reducing feat. Just go in and kick ass while the fighter keeps missing.
Optimize Stunning Fist or Trip or Grapple.

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 12:13 PM
Technically true, but I see Martial Study and Martial Stance in there. If we're disregarding ToB for the sake of argument, this isn't really fair. (Because if we're using ToB... then we just make a Warblade, who will kick this guy's ass six ways to Sunday.)

Note that I'm not defending Withoutpurpose's build - it's mediocre at best. But I don't think we need to resort to ToB to come up with a better fighter.

*shrug* Thicket of Blades isn't "essential" in the sense that losing it wouldn't matter vs. MM enemies, equivalent Fighters or many casters. But it IS a safeguard against Spring Attack nonsense, Tumble, 5' steps and such. It's really the easiest way to make the lockdown complete.

It's in no ways an integral part of the pile tho; replace it with Stand Still & Knock-Down if one feels so inclined and it won't be much worse. In fact, it'll probably be better most of the time. But frankly, they're feats; I don't see them making the character any more ToB especially since he doesn't use maneuvers or such; they're only prerequisites for Thicket of Blades.

Signmaker
2009-12-13, 12:15 PM
See the Wizard 13 vs. Fighter 20s in our Play-By-Post section, for example. Thanks to Contingencies, defensive spells and their offense, a level 13 Wizard has a level 20 Fighter and his wealth-by-level beat (albeit thanks to so much money advantage (110k vs. 760k), the Fighter has a chance). But he doesn't win by buffing his To Hit or damage.

That's...not entirely true, actually. Having built for both sides (and witnessed most of the fights), the fighter actually does pretty much win that bout. Rather, the wealth does, because the fighter I ended up with is immune to essentially everything but disjunction, which even then I have a few tricks to deal with. The tests don't show it because most of the optimizers built for wizards, and not for fighters.

As to the OP, that's just...no. The Weapon Focus tree is just bad. Baaaaaad.

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 12:17 PM
That's...not entirely true, actually. Having built for both sides (and witnessed most of the fights), the fighter actually does pretty much win that bout. Rather, the wealth does, because the fighter I ended up with is immune to essentially everything but disjunction, which even then I have a few tricks to deal with. The tests don't show it because most of the optimizers built for wizards, and not for fighters.

But that was the UMD-build, right? I was rather referring to the fights where the Fighter fights as a Fighter, not Disjunctioning left and Time Stopping right.

Milskidasith
2009-12-13, 12:17 PM
Technically true, but I see Martial Study and Martial Stance in there. If we're disregarding ToB for the sake of argument, this isn't really fair. (Because if we're using ToB... then we just make a Warblade, who will kick this guy's ass six ways to Sunday.)

Fighters and Barbarians are capable of beating warblades rather easily. It's just that warblades can do whatever they want and still manage to be good (pre-optimization with maneuvers) while fighters and barbarians need tricky feat selection to keep themselves relevant. I'm not saying that particular build is just as good as a warblade can be, but a well optimized ubercharger barbarian could probably take a well optimized warblade in terms of pure damage output.

Note that I'm not defending Withoutpurpose's build - it's mediocre at best. But I don't think we need to resort to ToB to come up with a better fighter.[/QUOTE]

snoopy13a
2009-12-13, 12:22 PM
The most direct way, that can't be argued against, is getting feats like Dash, and increasing speed. Add to that Dodge (!), Mobility (!!) and Spring Attack, and a bunch of ranks in Tumble, and you're looking at someone who can come in for over 60ft (your charge range w/o Heavy Armor), attack you (once. Better than 0 you're getting), and get out of your charge range.



Fighter can ready an action to attack you once you get in range:

Monk: Charges and gets away
Fighter: Readies action to attack once Monk gets within 20'
Monk: Charges, about to get within 20'
Fighter: Attacks Monk

sofawall
2009-12-13, 12:25 PM
The most direct way, that can't be argued against, is getting feats like Dash, and increasing speed. Add to that Dodge (!), Mobility (!!) and Spring Attack, and a bunch of ranks in Tumble, and you're looking at someone who can come in for over 60ft (your charge range w/o Heavy Armor), attack you (once. Better than 0 you're getting), and get out of your charge range.

There're 5+ methods of winning vs this fighter with the said monk, including;

The above method.
Shuriken, a safe distance, and Deflect Arrows.
TWF Vorpal Scorpion Kamas, preferably while Greater Invisible by an item.
Over 46 AC, with the PA-reducing feat. Just go in and kick ass while the fighter keeps missing.
Optimize Stunning Fist or Trip or Grapple.

First method: readied action to hit you as you come near.
Second method: You only block one attack per round.
Third method: High AC beats that with ease.
Fourth Method: 46 AC? I'll betcha it takes more to get a monk to 46 than it does to get a good to-hit for the fighter.
Fifth Method (a): So you're targeting AC and Fort saves, the two strongest defenses of a Fighter after HP. This does not look like it has a good chance to work.
Fifth Method (b): Fighter is likely to have more Str than you, but even if he doesn't, the -4 to attack brings his to-hit to something slightly closer to you. Still better than you, but it brings it closer.
Fifth Method (c): You're attacking BAB and Str on a fighter? Again, it isn't a good idea to attack a fighter's strengths, especially when he does it better than you.

Demons_eye
2009-12-13, 12:31 PM
Elusive Target?

Signmaker
2009-12-13, 12:31 PM
But that was the UMD-build, right? I was rather referring to the fights where the Fighter fights as a Fighter, not Disjunctioning left and Time Stopping right.

I haven't actually taken the fighter out for a spin, yet. And while the fighter buffs as a wealth machine (aka caster) he most certainly fights with weapons. In fact, one of his....five? tactics to engage the wizard is to simply sunder all of their gear in one fell swoop. He also has standard charging and ranged warfare adequately covered for a 13th level wizard.

But this is for another thread. =P

Eloel
2009-12-13, 12:32 PM
Third method: High AC beats that with ease.
How so? You're trying to roll a 20, which hits not caring about AC.
Just stack a bunch of Power Critical feats if you don't feel safe about the confirm. With 8 attacks/round (TWF), it'll likely take 2 rounds, and will probably end at 3rd round. Vs. High AC, and Elusive Target, you'll only hit once or twice in that 2 rounds, without PA.

Signmaker
2009-12-13, 12:33 PM
How so? You're trying to roll a 20, which hits not caring about AC.
Just stack a bunch of Power Critical feats if you don't feel safe about the confirm. With 8 attacks/round (TWF), it'll likely take 2 rounds, and will probably end at 3rd round. Vs. High AC, and Elusive Target, you'll only hit once or twice in that 2 rounds, without PA.

Vorpal doesn't autocrit, silly.

Eloel
2009-12-13, 12:34 PM
Vorpal doesn't autocrit, silly.


Power Critical [General]
Prerequisites

Weapon focus (chosen weapon), base attack bonus +4
Benefit

When using the weapon you selected, you gain a +4 bonus on the roll to confirm a threat.
Special

A fighter may select Power Critical as one of his fighter bonus feats.

You can gain Power Critical multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it may be with a different weapon or the same weapon. If you take it with the same weapon, the effects of the feats stack.


^ Understood?

sofawall
2009-12-13, 12:34 PM
How so? You're trying to roll a 20, which hits not caring about AC.
Just stack a bunch of Power Critical feats if you don't feel safe about the confirm. With 8 attacks/round (TWF), it'll likely take 2 rounds, and will probably end at 3rd round. Vs. High AC, and Elusive Target, you'll only hit once or twice in that 2 rounds, without PA.

Alright, how's about this? Karmic Strike+the feat in ToB that lets you 5ft. in place of an AoO. 1 attack per round isn't a very chance of heads off.

EDIT: Oh my, +4, you almost have the same to-hit as me when I'm prone :P

Eloel
2009-12-13, 12:36 PM
Alright, how's about this? Karmic Strike+the feat in ToB that lets you 5ft. in place of an AoO. 1 attack per round isn't a very chance of heads off.

Wait, if this is turning into Fighter vs Monk, Fighter wins, no problems there.
I thought this was Monk vs OP's Fighter.



You can gain Power Critical multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it may be with a different weapon or the same weapon. If you take it with the same weapon, the effects of the feats stack.

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 12:36 PM
Alright, how's about this? Karmic Strike+the feat in ToB that lets you 5ft. in place of an AoO. 1 attack per round isn't a very chance of heads off.

EDIT: Oh my, +4, you almost have the same to-hit as me when I'm prone :P

Hell, you don't even need Evasive Reflexes [ToB], Sidestep [Miniatures Handbook] does the same. And yeah, if the AC is that high, one +4 isn't really helping.

sofawall
2009-12-13, 12:37 PM
Well, optimized monk vs. poorly optimized fighter was already a foregone conclusion, wasn't it? I mean, you could punch that guy to death without even any tricks.

Eloel
2009-12-13, 12:38 PM
Well, optimized monk vs. poorly optimized fighter was already a foregone conclusion, wasn't it? I mean, you could punch that guy to death without even any tricks.

Optimized anything vs a monk is also obvious, isn't it?

Signmaker
2009-12-13, 12:39 PM
^ Understood?

Actually, no. You're wasting a ton of feats, which starts to muck up your other tactics. You've got the combat expertise tree reducing your BAB, and assorted other feats. The monk gets a few bonus feats, sure, but you're blowing a lot of them just for the slim chance of power criticalling. Not to mention the hefty cash deposit on those kamas.

sofawall
2009-12-13, 12:39 PM
Optimized anything vs a monk is also obvious, isn't it?

Monks are not the weakest class ever. They are just... One of them. They could probably stomp a straight Soulknife, for instance.

Eloel
2009-12-13, 12:43 PM
Monks are not the weakest class ever. They are just... One of them. They could probably stomp a straight Soulknife, for instance.

An argument can be made for either side winning actually.

Also, I feel dirty inside for defending Monk vs a Fighter there...

Withoutpurpose
2009-12-13, 01:06 PM
hahaha, I thought I had a good fighter, honestly :smallbiggrin: I guess my min-maxing skills are just not en par with you guys and gals.

And it's alot of fun to see the different kind of approach you have, 'cause frankly, that enlarged fighter? never would've dreamed of it! Love it :smallwink:

Siosilvar
2009-12-13, 01:10 PM
RE: The OP, aka "how come casters own so much"

Darren Greenscale, level 12 Dragonfire Adept (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=164226)Using your same format...

Lvl 12 Dragonfire Adept: stats: str 6 dex 14 con 24 (30 with amulet of health +6) wis 10 int 10 cha 14.

Attack: 90ft line or 45ft cone of 6d6 elemental damage.

AC "Can't touch this. I'm flying, invisible, and you're covered in fog."
A grapple modifier of "still flying... and how'd you get out of the fog with a 5ft move speed, anyway? No matter, here's another one."
+4 fast healing for 13 rounds.
Saves: Fort +22, Refl +10, Will +12

oh, and also 165 HP

I'm not even a full caster, and I've got you beat EVERYWHERE, except damage (and even that's not certain, because of my range, area effect damage, and possible elemental vulnerabilities). And I'm missing two of my feats. If I really wanted to match your healing, there's a draconic aura for that...
This isn't saying fighters can't be fun, though. They're (sadly) just not very effective against anything that can fly, or cast spells, or do anything but stand there and get hit. That being said, if it works in your group and everyone's having fun, then let it be.

9mm
2009-12-13, 01:38 PM
there are about 4 readily decent fighter builds that work; Jack B. Quick, Standstill lockdown, Gattling Tripper, and Ubercharger.

Let's Play Catch is more of a barb-build but can work decent as a fighter. but yeah at the levels your talking about; hitpoint damage just doesn't matter as much.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-13, 01:46 PM
But that was the UMD-build, right? I was rather referring to the fights where the Fighter fights as a Fighter, not Disjunctioning left and Time Stopping right.

I won as a Fighter Fighter vs a Wizard, though I could have easily lost.

To someone 7 levels below me...

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 01:59 PM
there are about 4 readily decent fighter builds that work; Jack B. Quick, Standstill lockdown, Gattling Tripper, and Ubercharger.

Let's Play Catch is more of a barb-build but can work decent as a fighter. but yeah at the levels your talking about; hitpoint damage just doesn't matter as much.

I don't really find Jack B. Quick to be that good overall; it's built to beat other melee types, but its effort vs. anything else is negligible to say the least. It's great for beating up on other melee types, but vs. non-melee threats it's got basically nothing.

And the ‹bercharger is definitely not a Fighter-build (c'mon, it's got 10 levels of Frenzied Berserker!). That said, standard Charger, mounted or not, is definitely fine as a Fighter (though you really want the Pounce dip) and lockdown, yeah, that I agree completely on. I found that for 1st level party going up against higher CR challenges, Lockdown Fighter was pretty much the only way to stand a decent chance against many CR 5+ creatures without hugely favorable terrain; in that sense, they even outperform low-level casters. And even on higher levels, they certainly do their role very well (even if it becomes less and less important).

To boot, you can easily squeeze the Charger-feats in there to get sufficient damage output to kill anything that lets its guard down. Many hard-to-kill creatures are also rather optimal to kill through lots of damage, making that role very handy.

Boci
2009-12-13, 02:07 PM
Warblades not overpowered? How can you possibly argue for that? the ToB is the only supplement I won't go into because it's just too much!

Aren't you supose to present evidence for you claim before we rebuke? Manouvers are far weaker than spells and a well built fighter can beat a warblade on numbers. Warblades are hard to screw up and even harder to power game. They are much more balanced than the fighter.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-13, 02:17 PM
Warblades not overpowered? How can you possibly argue for that? the ToB is the only supplement I won't go into because it's just too much!
http://www.nuklearpower.com/comics/8-bit-theater/010308.jpg
Does that answer your question?

ghashxx
2009-12-13, 02:45 PM
@ OP, this thread has gifted me with some really good laughs. Normally people just ask for help with making a fighter, and peoples responses are haggard at responding to yet another fighter thread. But starting the thread the way you did claiming the greatest fighter thereby invoking a sense of urgency upon readers to claim the throne of greatest fighter? Absolutely priceless.

Anonanimal
2009-12-13, 03:14 PM
@ OP, this thread has gifted me with some really good laughs. Normally people just ask for help with making a fighter, and peoples responses are haggard at responding to yet another fighter thread. But starting the thread the way you did claiming the greatest fighter thereby invoking a sense of urgency upon readers to claim the throne of greatest fighter? Absolutely priceless.

Well, he's new to the playground, and unlike some newcomers, he's very open to new advice instead of staunchly defending his sub-par fighter.

That said, don't be afraid of the ToB. It's one of the few things to give the fighter nice things (admittedly by rendering him near-obselete, though a dip into fighter is great for certain builds). Also, my personal favorite "fighter" build--which admittedly involves little of the actual fighter--involves the Warlock. It's not the best thing out there, but it's pretty stylish, and it really starts being awesome at 12th level.

The Eldritch Glaive invocation essentially lets you full attack with your Eldritch Blast (in close range), and you can get it by 1st level. At 12th level, a Warlock has 6d6 Eldritch Blast damage. We'll add in Power Attack, though I'm fairly sure Shock Trooper won't work as Eldritch Glaive is a full-round action, and thus can't be used with a charge, but we can afford to take more away from attack because all of those attacks are touch attacks. Then we add the Greater Chasuble of Fell Power, adding 2d6 to our Eldritch Blast damage. Finally, we sprinkle in some Boots of Speed, the Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Eldritch Blast) feat, and the Vitriolic Blast invocation.

This means that, with Boots of Speed, we have an attack regimen of +9/+9/+4. Please note that this is only BAB, and doesn't factor in our Strength bonus. We don't really need Charisma for this build, so let's say we started with a Strength of 18, increased it at 4th, 8th, and 12th. We're also wearing a Belt of Giant's Strength +4, so we have a Strength bonus of +7. This means in reality, our attack bonus is +16/+16/+11. And these are all touch attacks.

So, we power attack for full. Our attack regimen is +7/+7/+2, but they're all touch attacks, so it's alright that it's a little lacking. Additionally, each attack deals 8d6+25 damage. Since we have three attacks in the regimen, we deal 24d6+75 damage (an average of 147 damage). Though we can only do this 3/day, we can then quicken Eldritch Glaive, and do it again as a swift action. A whole new full attack. That means if each attack hits in both full attacks with the Glaive, we're doing 48d6+150 damage (average 294 damage).

But we're still not factoring in Vitriolic Blast, the shape effecting our Glaive. Because of VB, our Glaive ignores SR, and deals an extra 2d6 acid damage for 2 rounds. This stacks each time we use it. If all of our attacks connect, that means that next round, the enemy takes 12d6 damage (average 36), and then takes that again the round thereafter. That means that if all our attacks connect, we deal an average of 366 damage, and a maximum of 582 damage.

This is clearly not as good as your standard ubercharger, but we have additional tricks up our sleeve--debuffs like Nauseating Blast (people hit by Eldritch Blast must save or be nauseated, meaning they can do nothing but take 1 move action a turn, for one minute), Chilling Tentacles (like Black Tentacles + some cold damage), or Curse of Despair (bestow curse--you can lower an enemy's Dexterity by 6 to make them even easier to hit with touch AC), or utility things like Fell Flight (flying around 24/7), Walk Unseen (invisibility 24/7) or Flee the Scene (short-range dimension door 24/7), plus UMD is a class skill if we want to pretend to be the Wizard.

It gets even crazier by 20th level. Let's say we took 1 level of Binder and the Hellfire Warlock PrC. We get an extra 6d6 damage to our Eldritch Blast for the price of 1 Con, which is healed by the vestige Naberius the next round. Our natural BAB is now +15/+10/+5. If we've increased our Strength at every opportunity (so that we have 18 natural, +5 from leveling, +6 from a Belt, +5 from a Manual for a Strength of 34 (+12), we've got an attack bonus of +27/+22/+17. Let's add on Boots of Speed for +27/+27/+22/+17. Let's add on that Greater Chasuble of Fell Power for a total EB damage of 17d6. I think you know where this is headed.

Using the same strategy as before (Quickened Eldritch Glaive, power attacking for full), we've got an attack regimen of +12/+12/+7/+2, as touch attacks (and we can lower AC further with things like Bestow Curse, denying Dex, using UMD'd spells, et cetera), twice.

That means our damage is 17d6+42 per hit, for a total of 102d6+252 damage if all attacks hit. That's an average of 558 damage, assuming all of them hit (and a maximum of 864). Now, if we use Vitriolic Blast, we add an extra 16d6 acid damage for 4 rounds afterward, so we deal an extra 64d6 (average 192) damage over time. But we can do better than that, now. Let's add on Utterdark Blast, adding 2 negative levels for each hit. Meaning if all attacks hit, we're dealing all of that damage, plus 16 negative levels. Even if all attacks don't hit, which admittedly isn't likely (good luck hitting with an AB of +2 against 20th level things), even if we only hit on half of our attacks we're dealing a huge amount of damage plus 8 negative levels, making whatever we're fighting much, much less imposing. We also get 2 more attacks (which means 4 more negative levels) if we take a 1 level dip into Barbarian with the Whirling Frenzy variant.

I love this build. So stylish. :smallbiggrin:

gdiddy
2009-12-13, 03:20 PM
I just had a mental image that the OP's DM will come here complaining that an otherwise okay player just broke the game and split up the group with a munchkin character. This will result in him getting yelled at by a lot of people here and these people explaining to him that "optimized =/= munchkin".

Exasperated, the DM switches to a different system.

It seems like the people who still value 3.5 do a lot of damage to it with optimization culture.

Keep in mind, this is completely unfounded, and probably won't happen. However, optimization can ruin a lot of games. I think the OP should have had explained to him that while his game was obviously not like this, in the purely theoretical realm of character optimization, fighters are capable of quite a bit more damage. In this same thought experiment and in tests, Wizard 20 always wins. This has no bearing in a group on a group that does not focus on this. Because next session, he's going to tell his DM that he's playing a new character, and start an ubercharge career in a game made for GWS: Falchion.

What I'm saying is that while char op is a great facet to the game, it needs to be explained in context. You should be socially responsible with your character optimization advice. It may preserve the edition and the hobby in the long run.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-13, 03:25 PM
The Eldritch Glaive invocation essentially lets you full attack with your Eldritch Blast (in close range), and you can get it by 1st level. At 12th level, a Warlock has 6d6 Eldritch Blast damage. We'll add in Power Attack, though I'm fairly sure Shock Trooper won't work as Eldritch Glaive is a full-round action, and thus can't be used with a charge, but we can afford to take more away from attack because all of those attacks are touch attacks. Then we add the Greater Chasuble of Fell Power, adding 2d6 to our Eldritch Blast damage. Finally, we sprinkle in some Boots of Speed, the Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Eldritch Blast) feat, and the Vitriolic Blast invocation.

This means that, with Boots of Speed, we have an attack regimen of +9/+9/+4. Please note that this is only BAB, and doesn't factor in our Strength bonus. We don't really need Charisma for this build, so let's say we started with a Strength of 18, increased it at 4th, 8th, and 12th. We're also wearing a Belt of Giant's Strength +4, so we have a Strength bonus of +7. This means in reality, our attack bonus is +16/+16/+11. And these are all touch attacks.

I don't think so, Tim. Eldritch Glaive restricts your iterative attacks to those given by your BAB. Boots of Speed does not give you an extra iterative attack off of your BAB. It does not work with Eldritch Glaive.

Anonanimal
2009-12-13, 03:29 PM
I don't think so, Tim. Eldritch Glaive restricts your iterative attacks to those given by your BAB. Boots of Speed does not give you an extra iterative attack off of your BAB. It does not work with Eldritch Glaive.

Really? Hmm. That's a bother. Well, it's still effective, though somewhat less effective.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-13, 04:39 PM
I won as a Fighter Fighter vs a Wizard, though I could have easily lost.

To someone 7 levels below me...

In particular since I scored a draw in that contest with a fighter 13th level vs a wizard 13th level here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130678)

Wizards are not as overpowered as you think ... but that is definitely for another thread.

- Giacomo

Edit: to the OP - I do not think your build is that weak. It goes for wider critical range, which can be countered rather well at higher levels. So it's always good to have several tactics at your disposal.
Also, buffing is great - like the enlarge spell. Some of the best buffing spells for fighters are quite cheap to get in items or from your fellow casters:
haste, enlarge, greater magic weapon, freedom of movement, blink - all are level 1-4 spells. So you the associated items are also fairly cheap. Enjoy!

Deepblue706
2009-12-13, 08:25 PM
Needs more Toughness.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-13, 08:29 PM
Edit: to the OP - I do not think your build is that weak. It goes for wider critical range, which can be countered rather well at higher levels. So it's always good to have several tactics at your disposal.
Also, buffing is great - like the enlarge spell. Some of the best buffing spells for fighters are quite cheap to get in items or from your fellow casters:
haste, enlarge, greater magic weapon, freedom of movement, blink - all are level 1-4 spells. So you the associated items are also fairly cheap. Enjoy!

A ring of Freedom of Movement is cheap, is it?

Doc Roc
2009-12-13, 08:52 PM
I'll meet you in the arena at any point. I can crush that build without serious effort as a wizard.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-13, 08:54 PM
I'll meet you in the arena at any point. I can crush that build without serious effort as a wizard.

Oh, it's a challenge is it, Doc Roc?

Doc Roc
2009-12-13, 09:21 PM
Sure, I guess.

Signmaker
2009-12-13, 10:21 PM
Oh my.

*closes saloon doors*

*tumbleweed*

elliott20
2009-12-13, 10:56 PM
another week, another fighter thread

SurlySeraph
2009-12-14, 03:24 AM
Oh, we don't have that many Fighter threads. It's the Monk threads that are irritating.

Teron
2009-12-14, 04:25 AM
In particular since I scored a draw in that contest with a fighter 13th level vs a wizard 13th level here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130678)
You didn't "score" anything; the other participants got bored. That doesn't prove anything except that high level combat is complicated and time-consuming.

Kaiyanwang
2009-12-14, 05:14 AM
Here's my "greatest fighter" build:

Fighter 1/Wizard 19 :smallsmile:

Fighter can be optimized faar more than the OP thinks (and should be pointed out that if that build is good for his game, that's all).

{Scrubbed}

Arakune
2009-12-14, 05:23 AM
Fighter can be optimized faar more than the OP thinks (and should be pointed out that if that build is good for his game, that's all).

{Scrubbed}

Yeah. The real answer is Cleric 20.

Full spellcasting, 3/4 BAB -> full bab with buffs. Did I mentioned full spellcasting?

Zen Master
2009-12-14, 05:41 AM
Comon, give me your best shot :smallbiggrin:

I applaud your courage - but here, in the land of the uber optimizers, your build isn't really too impressive. It does however work in actual play, which I find far more attractive and interesting than thought experiments.

olentu
2009-12-14, 05:53 AM
I applaud your courage - but here, in the land of the uber optimizers, your build isn't really too impressive. It does however work in actual play, which I find far more attractive and interesting than thought experiments.

I will say that I have seen several builds similar to ones presented here used in actual play. They were of course not exactly the same as players tastes differ, and so forth. However the basic structure and purpose was almost the same. In any case the point remains that builds such as these must be reasonably viable for actual play given the extreme similarity to things that I have observed being actually used in play.

Kaiyanwang
2009-12-14, 05:55 AM
Yeah. The real answer is Cleric 20.

Full spellcasting, 3/4 BAB -> full bab with buffs. Did I mentioned full spellcasting?

Oh, congratulation, you are my hero.

Just in case: yes, this is sarcasm.

Grifthin
2009-12-14, 06:09 AM
The most awesome fighter is the one that Dual Wields crossbows - duh :smallbiggrin:

Allanimal
2009-12-14, 07:05 AM
Important feats:
power attack
Leap attack (CA)
Improved Bullrush
Shock Trooper


This is very interesting, because our DM doesn't allow much outside of core, but CA and CW are allowed, and I have only recently started playing 3.5 D&D, so I'm not so great with optimizing. This may be the way I want to build my barbarian. Let's see...

So doing a full power attack heedless leaping charge for my 6th-level barbarian, using his +1 flaming dwarven waraxe* means
1) The attack bonus is full BAB + 2 for the charge (+ STR** + enchanted weapon, as usual), in my case +6+2+4+1 = +13
2) on a successful hit: 1d10 + 1d6 +1 (base weapon, flaming, enchantment) +36 (+12*3)due to the Leaping PA, +4 for STR ==> Total of 1d10 + 1d6 + 41. Average 50. Not too shabby.
3) My AC would be -6 from the Shock Trooper and -2 from the charge

*I know this isn't the max damage weapon, but he uses it for flavor which becomes RP XP. :)
** Yeah, it's only 17 at the moment.

That all sounds great. And all from books the DM has been allowing.
Now I just need to make sure there's always a clear path and 20' between me and my enemy.



Using dungeoncrasher fighter (DS) it would add 8d6+21 damage if the enemy is within bullrushing distance of a wall or other enemy.

Which book is DS? If I don't recognize it, that probably means the book isn't allowed by my DM... :(

EDIT: I know that a Dwarven Barbarian doesn't have enough feats to do this by 6th level. 9th level isn't that far.

Eldariel
2009-12-14, 07:48 AM
Dungeoncrasher is from Dungeonscape, appropriately. Very key for really dealing a lot of damage; you are better off as a Large creature for it though since you need Large size to qualify for Knockback [Races of Stone].

I personally enjoy using Goliaths [Races of Stone] as a baseline for that; the good news is that Bull Rush (mechanic which Dungeoncrasher uses; it basically gives you a lot of bonus damage for slamming people to walls) is a mechanic which synergizes well with the other two abilities of Shock Trooper.


Note that most of Power Attack damage comes from wielding a weapon Two-Handed, so you must use Dwarven Waraxe in both hands (negating the Exotic Weapon Prof bonus) to make the best use of it. Not impossible, mind you, just something I figured is worth mentioning.

And you can multiclass Fighter as a Barbarian for the feats; Barbarian/Fighter multiclass works really and is nothing more special than a Barbarian slightly more trained in fighting.

Doc Roc
2009-12-14, 09:21 AM
I applaud your courage - but here, in the land of the uber optimizers, your build isn't really too impressive. It does however work in actual play, which I find far more attractive and interesting than thought experiments.

This is not the land of uber-optimizers.
That kingdom has fallen and we dunedain are the last of the blood. Weak has that blood grown.

Arakune
2009-12-14, 09:21 AM
Oh, congratulation, you are my hero.

Just in case: yes, this is sarcasm.

Yet it's so acurate...

Kaiyanwang
2009-12-14, 09:26 AM
Yet it's so acurate...

Is not my main language. You know, I don't fine-tune my sarcasm, you write acurate instead of accurate. :smallamused:

Doc Roc
2009-12-14, 09:33 AM
Oy oy, lay off. It's not Ara's main language either.

Grifthin
2009-12-14, 09:41 AM
I still maintain that crossbows are the way to go.

Although make sure to spend some of your wbl on a widebrim hat, leather coat and some tobacco.

Kaiyanwang
2009-12-14, 09:43 AM
Oy oy, lay off. It's not Ara's main language either.

I see. I apologize with Ara for being harsh, but when a thread could be constructive and becomes mere bashing, my evil eye opens.

I realize now that I should put in flames the whole internet, I guess. :smallbiggrin:

*bows*

Doc Roc
2009-12-14, 09:48 AM
I also promote a policy of healthy living, kindness, and global incineration.

Ai! Ai! Gygax F'taghn!

Zen Master
2009-12-14, 09:53 AM
This is not the land of uber-optimizers.
That kingdom has fallen and we dunedain are the last of the blood. Weak has that blood grown.

Heh :)

Well - then 'the land of slightly-more-optimizers than me'.

9mm
2009-12-14, 10:16 AM
I still maintain that crossbows are the way to go.

Although make sure to spend some of your wbl on a widebrim hat, leather coat and some tobacco.

dual hand crossbows do work rather well; easily reaching 80,000 points a damage a turn with good optimization; but really once you start hitting the hundreds extra damage is unnecessary.

elliott20
2009-12-14, 10:54 AM
dual hand crossbows do work rather well; easily reaching 80,000 points a damage a turn with good optimization; but really once you start hitting the hundreds extra damage is unnecessary.

you're gonna have to explain to me how does that work.

Eloel
2009-12-14, 10:56 AM
you're gonna have to explain to me how does that work.

You get Lightning Maces feat, add Aptitude to your x-bow. Get a psion to manifest Death Urge on you.
Easy damage!

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-14, 10:58 AM
You get Lightning Maces feat, add Aptitude to your x-bow. Get a psion to manifest Death Urge on you.
Easy damage!

LOL, I remember that one.

But Disciple of Dispater, Imp critical, and the splitting enhancement are the ones I saw used.

Grifthin
2009-12-14, 11:12 AM
Sorry - what!?

Someone please explain that one to me. What the feats/spells are and what they do ? 80000 Damage!

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-14, 11:18 AM
Sorry - what!?

Someone please explain that one to me. What the feats/spells are and what they do ? 80000 Damage!

Simple. Aptitude weapons let you use a feat that specifies a specific weapon with them.

Lightning Maces specify a specific weapon (light maces). So aptitude hand crossbows let you use the feat with them.

Lightning maces states that whenever you threaten a critical, you get an extra attack with that weapon, same circumstances.

Death Urge, if you fail the save, forces you to attack yourself. You hit and automatically crit.

So, you hit yourself, and autocrit. That triggers Lightning Maces, which gives you an extra attack against yourself... which autocrits.

Your damage is limited only by the number of bolts you have.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-14, 11:20 AM
Olo should be the one to explain.

Fiery Diamond
2009-12-14, 11:24 AM
After reading the initial post: Just realize that optimization means nothing on this board. REAL optimized builds are considered "underpowered" compared to the kinds of nonsense that this board churns out. Their idea of optimization is cheese, and their idea of cheese is cheating.

Over and out.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-14, 11:27 AM
After reading the initial post: Just realize that optimization means nothing on this board. REAL optimized builds are considered "underpowered" compared to the kinds of nonsense that this board churns out. Their idea of optimization is cheese, and their idea of cheese is cheating.

Over and out.
Ignorance leads to fear
Fear leads to anger
Anger leads to hatred
Hatred leads to the Dark Side.

Kaiyanwang
2009-12-14, 11:27 AM
After reading the initial post: Just realize that optimization means nothing on this board. REAL optimized builds are considered "underpowered" compared to the kinds of nonsense that this board churns out. Their idea of optimization is cheese, and their idea of cheese is cheating.

Over and out.

This is not true for every person here.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-14, 11:32 AM
So, pure-bred fighters are no good, huh?

I made this pure-bred and, well, he kicks-ass and all your fighter halfbreed/bastards can do nothing to keep up with him :smallcool: (I exclude all ToB classes because frankly, they are 3.75, not 3.5

Lvl 15 Fighter: stats: str 18(24 with belt of giant str +6) dex 13 con 17 wis 14 int 13 cha 11.

Attack: 27/22/17 +1 keen falchion. dmg 2d4 +17. crit 15-20 x2.
Full PA: 12/7/2 dmg 2d4 + 47

So, I mostly only used 5 points in power attack but sometimes I did up to 100 dmg in one hit! (full PA). But wait, it gets better
AC 27 (optional 32 with CE). Full plate +2, Ring of protection +4.
A grapple modifier of 22/30 to resist grapple.
+4 fast healing for 13 rounds.
Saves: For 15, Ref 8, Wil 9/13 (Cloak of Resistance +3)

It's your turn to ask: How? Feats and more feats, WF, WS, GWF, GWS (what the fighter does best, one weapon man :smallwink:) Combat Focus, Combat Vigor and Combat can't-remember-at-the-moment... Well, all of those feats are in PHII. Heavy armor optimization, Greater heavy armor optimization, both found in RoS, PA, Cleave, CE, Slashing flurry (PHII, completely pointless but charge and get 2 attacks, not so bad).

oh, and also 149 HP

Comon, give me your best shot :smallbiggrin:

Power Word Blind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerWordBlind.htm)

Yukitsu
2009-12-14, 11:32 AM
Yeah. Some of us aren't optimizers. :smallbiggrin:

A lot of people who like optimizing get sidetracked by the optimal, but most of the optimizers don't pull this sort of stuff in real campaigns.

9mm
2009-12-14, 11:33 AM
After reading the initial post: Just realize that optimization means nothing on this board. REAL optimized builds are considered "underpowered" compared to the kinds of nonsense that this board churns out. Their idea of optimization is cheese, and their idea of cheese is cheating.

Over and out.

um... no. Most people talk about optimization and think TO; but in when in play people use PO. the problem is many of the stormwind mentality can't tell that there is a difference, and even the most extreme TO advocates PO in real play.

Eldariel
2009-12-14, 12:05 PM
After reading the initial post: Just realize that optimization means nothing on this board. REAL optimized builds are considered "underpowered" compared to the kinds of nonsense that this board churns out. Their idea of optimization is cheese, and their idea of cheese is cheating.

Over and out.

I do invite you to read the topics and the threads where such happens. When someone asks for advice on how to optimize a character, he'll get practical optimization advice.

However, there are great many threads about "The Best", "The Greatest", "Broken", "How to Do Nearly Impossible Thing #X", etc. And in those, of course people answer the question. If asked what's the greatest Fighter in 3.5, it's not one with Weapon Specialization-tree. If asked what's the strongest pre-epic character in 3.5, it's not a martialist.

If asked what's the best Wizard in 3.5, chances are it's not Loremaster; even though it's a fine PrC and perfectly usable for standard play, it's not the strongest thing you can do with those levels. The reason "cheese" gets brought up often is because people ASK for it. If someone asks what's the best X, people answer. Because people ask about Best X often, people answer about it often.

dangerprawn
2009-12-14, 12:38 PM
Here's my "greatest fighter" build:

Fighter 1/Wizard 19 :smallsmile:Too much fighter.

Sig'd.


Not that I don't have any love for Fighters. There will always be a soft spot in my heart for the straight Fighter. Heh. Made one for this one shot vs a pit fiend. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134971) Should be interesting.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-14, 12:41 PM
After reading the initial post: Just realize that optimization means nothing on this board. REAL optimized builds are considered "underpowered" compared to the kinds of nonsense that this board churns out. Their idea of optimization is cheese, and their idea of cheese is cheating.

Over and out.

Incidentally, the phrase "over and out" is an incorrect usage of radio terminology.

"Over" means that it is the other person's turn to speak, while "out" means that the conversation is over. "Over and out" means "it is your turn to speak, but I'm not going to listen", which is rather rude and no doubt not what you intended to say.

Tavar
2009-12-14, 12:43 PM
"Over" means that it is the other person's turn to speak, while "out" means that the conversation is over. "Over and out" means "it is your turn to speak, but I'm not going to listen", which is rather rude and no doubt not what you intended to say.

Well, considering the current situation, it might just be appropriate. Not that that's a good thing, but still...

Myrmex
2009-12-14, 01:57 PM
And then you're just overly gimping yourself there, from my experience. When you start getting giants, and things with Strength in the 30's, they'll still hit you 70% of the time, and smack you for huge chunks. While you ineffectively flail at their superior Natural Armour.

When I run monsters, if they can easily hit the players, then they start 2-for-1 power attacking. High AC is largely to mitigate the awesome power of power attack on high HD, high str beasties.


Well, optimized monk vs. poorly optimized fighter
was already a foregone conclusion, wasn't it? I mean, you could punch that guy to death without even any tricks.

I'd hardly call stacking Power Critical an "optimized" anything. Seeing someone's build, then constructing something that is perfectly built to destroy it is pretty lame.


Ignorance leads to fear
Fear leads to anger
Anger leads to hatred
Hatred leads to the Dark Side.

That ******** totally ripped off Dune.

Eloel
2009-12-14, 02:16 PM
I'd hardly call stacking Power Critical an "optimized" anything. Seeing someone's build, then constructing something that is perfectly built to destroy it is pretty lame.
vs anything that can't cast spell, Vorpal Kamas with stacked Power Critical on a Monk with TWF IS optimized actually. It's just a different kind of optimized, in that it's one of the very few options for 'instadeath' for melee characters. Note that when I say 'instadeath', I don't mean 'uber damage'.

ghashxx
2009-12-14, 02:49 PM
Well, considering the current situation, it might just be appropriate. Not that that's a good thing, but still...

Poor guy goes on a rant about people who do cheese, but says it in the wrong thread with optimizers instead of cheesers. Poor dude, except for the fact that he's probably not reading these anymore.

Now in the current spiked chain thread there's been some optimize/one trick pony conversation, and that could be something good for the OP to read. Simply put, having something you can do really well (like tripping) is great and all, just make certain you've got other tactics to fall back on. So when people stack bonus on top of bonus on top of optimization to make an ubercharger dealing 300 damage on every charge, that's great until your opponent is flying or even just standing on a ledge.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-14, 02:51 PM
vs anything that can't cast spell, Vorpal Kamas with stacked Power Critical on a Monk with TWF IS optimized actually.

The Tarresque.

ghashxx
2009-12-14, 02:52 PM
The Tarresque.

Or a god, or Raistlin.

Aron Times
2009-12-14, 03:06 PM
Seriously OP, just play a single class cleric. It's much stronger than the fighter at being a fighter, especially when you're restricted to core (most of the broken spells are in core).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-14, 03:53 PM
Seriously OP, just play a single class cleric. It's much stronger than the fighter at being a fighter, especially when you're restricted to core (most of the broken spells are in core).Druid is better in core melee. Most of the buffs are hours/level instead of rounds, and you get a Fighter as a class feature.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-14, 04:38 PM
Sure, I guess.

Challenge accepted. I have some time at hand from next weekend.
Of course, since my build is now known (unfortunately Superglucose did not post his), I'll do another fighter build.
Level 13, core. 0 LA race. Wbl normal for level 13 (DMG). 25% at most going to a single item. Single class fighter vs single class wizard only (no prestige classes). Highly controversial stuff like gate (also the candle kind), calling spells in general and polymorph are out, as should be leadership and the duelists should start the match by themselves (of course, the wizard has his familiar). I'd also suggest no magic effects higher than 7th level spells.
Do you wish to have buff rounds? Any preferences on how far from each other the duel should start?
Of course, we'd need a DM. Maybe Olo...?


You didn't "score" anything; the other participants got bored. That doesn't prove anything except that high level combat is complicated and time-consuming.

Yes, it is time-consuming. I wonder how far the duel vs Doc Roc will go.
Still, I got offered a draw by the Superglucose who played the wizard (and well imo!) not because he took pity on me, but because sofawall no longer had time to DM the duel.
At that point, all spells the wizard cast over six rounds and two buff rounds did not help him (all the classics: mirror image, blink, contingency, greater dispel magic, quickened ray of exhaustion, dimension door (twice, one with contingency), solid fog and wind wall. And he had been hit several times by the fighter's arrows.

It's up to everyone's guess what would have happened afterwards, but a 50:50 outcome (as it should be in a balanced game) appears reasonable imo, as fitting a draw.
The duel also clearly illustrated that the wizard is not overpowered.

- Giacomo

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-14, 04:56 PM
It's up to everyone's guess what would have happened afterwards, but a 50:50 outcome (as it should be in a balanced game) appears reasonable imo, as fitting a draw.
There is no evidence to support this conclusion. The only reason it appears reasonable to you is because it appeals to your preconceived notions of how it should have happened.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-14, 05:50 PM
There is no evidence to support this conclusion. The only reason it appears reasonable to you is because it appeals to your preconceived notions of how it should have happened.

The question to be shown was: are wizards overpowered vis-a-vis fighters. And this duel has failed to prove it.

And given that the fighter negated all the nine spells the wizard cast up to that point, I fail to see a big winning chance of the wizard here - although it certainly is open enough.

- Giacomo

Spate
2009-12-14, 05:52 PM
Level 13, core. 0 LA race. Wbl normal for level 13 (DMG). 25% at most going to a single item. Single class fighter vs single class wizard only (no prestige classes). Highly controversial stuff like gate (also the candle kind), calling spells in general and polymorph are out, as should be leadership and the duelists should start the match by themselves (of course, the wizard has his familiar). I'd also suggest no magic effects higher than 7th level spells.

Sir, you appear to be making a lot of rules. Shouldn't a neutral third party set this up, rather than you who are more likely to bias the rules towards yourself?

But that is just my humble opinion. It's not like it makes sense.

Arakune
2009-12-14, 05:53 PM
The question to be shown was: are wizards overpowered vis-a-vis fighters. And this duel has failed to prove it.

And given that the fighter negated all the nine spells the wizard cast up to that point, I fail to see a big winning chance of the wizard here - although it certainly is open enough.

- Giacomo

Restart the fight. Do it again at least 20 more times.

Mongoose87
2009-12-14, 06:02 PM
Restart the fight. Do it again at least 20 more times.

To be scientific, make it 20 000.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-14, 06:05 PM
Actually, you only need about 30 tries.

Glimbur
2009-12-14, 06:05 PM
To be scientific, make it 20 000.

We don't need quite that many. 100030 or so should do.

But that will test the ability of that particular wizard build and play style against that particular fighter build and play style, which is only a small part of the overall question of wizard v fighter.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-14, 06:06 PM
We don't need quite that many. 1000 or so should do.

You! Obey the fist!!!

Doc Roc
2009-12-14, 06:43 PM
Challenge accepted. I have some time at hand from next weekend.
Of course, since my build is now known (unfortunately Superglucose did not post his), I'll do another fighter build.
Level 13, core. 0 LA race. Wbl normal for level 13 (DMG). 25% at most going to a single item. Single class fighter vs single class wizard only (no prestige classes). Highly controversial stuff like gate (also the candle kind), calling spells in general and polymorph are out, as should be leadership and the duelists should start the match by themselves (of course, the wizard has his familiar). I'd also suggest no magic effects higher than 7th level spells.
Do you wish to have buff rounds? Any preferences on how far from each other the duel should start?
Of course, we'd need a DM. Maybe Olo...?



Yes, it is time-consuming. I wonder how far the duel vs Doc Roc will go.
Still, I got offered a draw by the Superglucose who played the wizard (and well imo!) not because he took pity on me, but because sofawall no longer had time to DM the duel.
At that point, all spells the wizard cast over six rounds and two buff rounds did not help him (all the classics: mirror image, blink, contingency, greater dispel magic, quickened ray of exhaustion, dimension door (twice, one with contingency), solid fog and wind wall. And he had been hit several times by the fighter's arrows.

It's up to everyone's guess what would have happened afterwards, but a 50:50 outcome (as it should be in a balanced game) appears reasonable imo, as fitting a draw.
The duel also clearly illustrated that the wizard is not overpowered.

- Giacomo

I finish my duels.
Thosre are none of the classics. S-glucose's wizard was deeply sub-par. I'll meet you in glorious battle at laaaaaasttttt!

I think at that point we should and could probably just use the ToS ban list. Are we doing core only or SRD only?

sofawall
2009-12-14, 07:04 PM
Yes, it is time-consuming. I wonder how far the duel vs Doc Roc will go.
Still, I got offered a draw by the Superglucose who played the wizard (and well imo!) not because he took pity on me, but because sofawall no longer had time to DM the duel.


I was actually waiting for Superglucose to address the fact that his posted movement left the arena, but w/e. You know, considering I asked him about it and all.

Amphetryon
2009-12-14, 07:09 PM
*gets popcorn and a good seat*

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-14, 07:12 PM
Giacomo, your match between my bat animal companion and your fighter came to a draw as well. Does that mean that the fighter had a 50% win chance vs the bat, and that a fighter is on par with an animal companion?

ghashxx
2009-12-14, 08:10 PM
*gets popcorn and a good seat*

Agreed


Giacomo, your match between my bat animal companion and your fighter came to a draw as well. Does that mean that the fighter had a 50% win chance vs the bat, and that a fighter is on par with an animal companion?

Super duper triple quintuple amazing.

PVP bull feces doesn't mean anything. Using the right stuff out there I'm sure it's possible to take out a wizard with nothing more than a monk for goodness sake. Fighters can fulfill fewer roles than a wizard, or whatever spell caster, and the spell caster can do the fighter thing better than a fighter a la polymorph, or even the spell making them into a ginormous warfarged titan. I like running fighters, the feat combos you can actually pull off make the system fun to play with. But just because I really enjoy melee oriented classes because I've found them more fun than either my sorceror or druid doesn't mean I think they are mechanically better. They're mechanically worse, but more fun (in my opinion) to play.

And I was going to say something else, but forget.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-14, 08:13 PM
I don't think the sarcasm was evident in my post. For that I apologize.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-14, 10:52 PM
PVP bull feces doesn't mean anything. Using the right stuff out there I'm sure it's possible to take out a wizard with nothing more than a monk for goodness sake. Fighters can fulfill fewer roles than a wizard, or whatever spell caster, and the spell caster can do the fighter thing better than a fighter a la polymorph, or even the spell making them into a ginormous warfarged titan. I like running fighters, the feat combos you can actually pull off make the system fun to play with. But just because I really enjoy melee oriented classes because I've found them more fun than either my sorceror or druid doesn't mean I think they are mechanically better. They're mechanically worse, but more fun (in my opinion) to play.

And I was going to say something else, but forget.I think PVP between 2 purely martial characters, neither of which is built for lockdown and both having sufficient uses of their per-day abilities to last through several fights is fairly accurate. In any other situation, no. So Fighter vs AC is, Fighter vs Wizard isn't. Barbarians generally are if they have either Extra Rage or levels greater than 3, trippers aren't. Paladins accurate, ToB accurate, Knights not.

In some situations. :smallwink:

ghashxx
2009-12-15, 09:19 AM
I think PVP between 2 purely martial characters, neither of which is built for lockdown and both having sufficient uses of their per-day abilities to last through several fights is fairly accurate. In any other situation, no. So Fighter vs AC is, Fighter vs Wizard isn't. Barbarians generally are if they have either Extra Rage or levels greater than 3, trippers aren't. Paladins accurate, ToB accurate, Knights not.

In some situations. :smallwink:

With conditions a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i,... and z met, then PvP work. Definitely lols Sstopidtalkid :smalltongue:

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-15, 11:56 AM
Giacomo, your match between my bat animal companion and your fighter came to a draw as well. Does that mean that the fighter had a 50% win chance vs the bat, and that a fighter is on par with an animal companion?

Again, you are providing incorrect statements.
The fight of your animal companion against my fighter did not come to a "draw" but
- the animal companion was in a hopeless situation,
- you declined to give up and refused to provide any answer as to what you thought would save the animal companion within the core rules
- and Doc Roc asked the thread to be closed down because he perceived unreconcilable views of what core is (you thought it would include houseruling and/or psionics rules ontop of the core rules, whereas I did not).

That is a very, very big difference to an official draw offered to me by superglucose which I then accepted because clearly, both of us saw about even chances going from that point and we thought sofawall was no longer able to DM it (or we would have continued - sorry sofawall that there appeared to have been a misunderstanding- thanks for a great job to DM, btw).

Having said that, I'd tend to agree that duels do not outright reveal which class is stronger. A lot has to do with maxing fu and the duel settings. And I guess that Doc Roc's maxing fu is stronger than mine - given that he runs the ToS and has experience for duels from way before.
What I hope is to get insights whether he comes up with spell combinations that would usually not be counterable by a fighter, not whether the fighter could lose by a unlucky saving throw or the wizard due to a lucky critical by the fighter.

In my view, even a 6-round combat like the one linked above between superglucoses' wizard and my fighter can tell a lot about whether certain spells and tactics are really over-powerful or not. And imo it was clearly shown that many of the spells which are often quoted as saying "fighter/non-caster loses to these" were not successful in defeating the fighter. My entire point.

Doc Roc, I guess the ToS spell ban list is OK - I saw gate, planar calling spells and the morphing stuff banned and this is fine with me.

What do you say about my other rules suggestions? Of course, I'd like to keep it to core rules and not include SRD psionics.
And what kind of buff rounds do you think are appropriate?
But maybe our DM (whoever steps forward) has different ideas altogether on how a core duel should go.

- Giacomo

madtinker
2009-12-15, 12:04 PM
But just because I really enjoy melee oriented classes because I've found them more fun than either my sorceror or druid doesn't mean I think they are mechanically better. They're mechanically worse, but more fun (in my opinion) to play.



EXACTLY! I don't understand arguments about optimizing, because optimizing isn't as fun as taking a character concept and running with it. Anyway, carry on...

Setra
2009-12-15, 12:06 PM
EXACTLY! I don't understand arguments about optimizing, because optimizing isn't as fun as taking a character concept and running with it. Anyway, carry on...
There are arguments about optimization because for some people, optimization in and of itself is fun.

Also because this thread is about optimization in the first place.

madtinker
2009-12-15, 12:09 PM
Yeah, I know. I'm an engineer, and optimizing some things is fun, and for some people, optimizing characters is fun. I see it intellectually, but still don't understand it. But that is already philosophy, another subject with which I have little patience. Anyway...

Edit: Add to that, the definition of "optimized" is so loose anyway. No one agrees on what is really 'the best.'

Setra
2009-12-15, 12:12 PM
Edit: Add to that, the definition of "optimized" is so loose anyway. No one agrees on what is really 'the best.'
I thought the general agreement was that Pun Pun was the best :smalltongue:

Signmaker
2009-12-15, 12:32 PM
Yeah, I know. I'm an engineer, and optimizing some things is fun, and for some people, optimizing characters is fun.

Me too, whee (well, undergrad shooting for a degree). I'll be honest, I love finding the tiny cracks in the 3.5 system. It's quite interesting to see what extremes can come out of any given model.

Will I run half the characters I run from ToS in an actual game? Probably not. Usually the extreme builds result in a do-or-die mentality, and prolonged combat (as such from campaigns) is a tremendous drain on resources, such that it's actually better to run something more mellow.

ghashxx
2009-12-15, 01:22 PM
Me too, whee (well, undergrad shooting for a degree). I'll be honest, I love finding the tiny cracks in the 3.5 system. It's quite interesting to see what extremes can come out of any given model.

Will I run half the characters I run from ToS in an actual game? Probably not. Usually the extreme builds result in a do-or-die mentality, and prolonged combat (as such from campaigns) is a tremendous drain on resources, such that it's actually better to run something more mellow.

I do find it kind of amusing to see these ridiculous builds. I usually end up rolling my eyes and chuckling a little. it's when people start getting really heated about things that it gets frustrating. See the current spiked chain thread to see what I mean.

Anyhoo, on this whole greatest fighter thing. Just shoot for someone who, at low levels, can do a few things really well with one specialty, and as you can form new specialty moves with additional feats etc then just continue branching off a little. Be really really executing a few core principles, and make certain to stay relevant in odd situations too. Like something for min-teleport jumps, like 20' or so to quickly close range without having to run through grease. Things like that.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-15, 03:14 PM
Again, you are providing incorrect statements.
I was providing sarcasm.


The fight of your animal companion against my fighter did not come to a "draw" but
- the animal companion was in a hopeless situation,
I damaged you some. You damaged me some. I could have still damaged you. You could have still damaged me. Game ended abruptly. You didn't exactly win there.


- you declined to give up and refused to provide any answer as to what you thought would save the animal companion within the core rules
Because I am supposed to give up my battle plans to the opponent? Really, Giacomo, really? I mean, if I was up against someone whom I could trust not to metagame, I might do it, but I just don't have that same confidence in you given your past behavior.


- and Doc Roc asked the thread to be closed down because he perceived unreconcilable views of what core is (you thought it would include houseruling and/or psionics rules ontop of the core rules, whereas I did not).
Dropping objects on people from high above in combat is considered "houseruling" in the world of Giacomo. Animal Companions having different feats than those laid out in the MM is houseruling as well.

Incidentally, iirc, you throwing up huge objections and arguing everything and anything that didn't go you way (something Saph has noticed as well, so it's not just me) definitely contributed to closing the thread.

Grifthin
2009-12-15, 03:17 PM
Anyway's - Does anybody actually use Quarterstaves/Longspear type weapons when building fighters ?

Signmaker
2009-12-15, 03:18 PM
Anyway's - Does anybody actually use Quarterstaves/Longspear type weapons when building fighters ?

Once or twice, with me. But that was for a cheap initiative boost.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-15, 03:31 PM
EXACTLY! I don't understand arguments about optimizing, because optimizing isn't as fun as taking a character concept and running with it. Anyway, carry on...

"Taking a concept and running with it" isn't mutually exclusive with optimization. Optimization isn't making the best character ever, it's making the best one within a certain set of constraints--sure, a lot of theoretical ops involve the most X or the highest X or whatever, but "I want to make a spear-wielding warrior, how do I make that work best within the rules?" is an optimization question as well.

Milskidasith
2009-12-15, 03:34 PM
For example, I have a Druid 13//Psywar 13 in a game I'm running, and rather than optimize him as an OMG Druid using save or loses... I have him optimized to buff himself and his animal companion up to truly ridiculous sizes (colossal dire tortoise, anybody?) and then go to town with melee.

Yes, I am basically using Gamera as an animal companion. And I do it well. :smallwink:

Boci
2009-12-15, 03:39 PM
Anyway's - Does anybody actually use Quarterstaves/Longspear type weapons when building fighters ?

Kobold fighters will use spears. VoP would also probably choose that as their simple weapon. Apart from that though, there's no real reason to choose a simple weapon over a martial weapon.

Sleepingbear
2009-12-15, 03:40 PM
Anyway's - Does anybody actually use Quarterstaves/Longspear type weapons when building fighters ?

As in actual game play?

Yes. I like to equip my fighters with a long spear for reach. And staves are good for poking things with. Plus they're cheap and do bludgeoning damage. And really, who's going to deprive a guy of a walking stick? What harm can a walking stick do? Especially if it's not radiating magic?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-15, 03:43 PM
In a world where Greater Mighty Wallop, Shellaleigh, and Spellstaff exist? Plenty.

Grifthin
2009-12-15, 03:46 PM
Wouldn't it be cool to play some kind of Staff wielding fighter that trips/disarms/Flips around like a ninja with his staff ? Would be rather different from the regular 2handed power attacking creature seen most everywhere.

Myrmex
2009-12-15, 03:48 PM
Wouldn't it be cool to play some kind of Staff wielding fighter that trips/disarms/Flips around like a ninja with his staff ? Would be rather different from the regular 2handed power attacking creature seen most everywhere.

Then he'd wail on his sweet guitar and get a boner while he flips out and kills people.

Yah way cool.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-15, 03:49 PM
Wouldn't it be cool to play some kind of Staff wielding fighter that trips/disarms/Flips around like a ninja with his staff ? Would be rather different from the regular 2handed power attacking creature seen most everywhere.

You wield a staff in two hands, Grifthin.

Boci
2009-12-15, 03:49 PM
Wouldn't it be cool to play some kind of Staff wielding fighter that trips/disarms/Flips around like a ninja with his staff ? Would be rather different from the regular 2handed power attacking creature seen most everywhere.

Well RAW staffs they aren't tripping weapons, and disarming usually is not worth investing in. A spiked chain would suit them better, but you could always describe it as a staff. Is there any particular reason you want to use a simple weapon? As for the "Flips around like a ninja" are you sure the fighter is the best class for that? Swordsage seems more apropriate.

Arakune
2009-12-15, 03:49 PM
Wouldn't it be cool to play some kind of Staff wielding fighter that trips/disarms/Flips around like a ninja with his staff ? Would be rather different from the regular 2handed power attacking creature seen most everywhere.

There is spiked chain for that. And is quite awesome.

Edit: Ninja!

Grifthin
2009-12-15, 03:50 PM
@ Myrmex - Wouldn't you have to be a bard for that ?

@Paraoh's Fist - I know - but isn't there any other way other than the power attack route of being effective ?

EDIT:

What's a sword sage ?
Are there any martial weapon staves in the PHB ? I might have missed them.

Myrmex
2009-12-15, 03:52 PM
@ Myrmex - Wouldn't you have to be a bard for that ?

Only ninjas get real ultimate power (http://www.realultimatepower.net/).

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-15, 03:52 PM
SS does get the skills for flipping, and a Spiked Chain can have its damage converted to bludgeoning and be called a "Three-secion staff" or something.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-15, 03:53 PM
@Paraoh's Fist - I know - but isn't there any other way other than the power attack route of being effective ?
It's just that against a lot of creatures, you can't disarm natural weapons and tripping something that is large with four or more legs is a hassle.

Boci
2009-12-15, 03:55 PM
What's a sword sage ?

Tome of Battle class. What the monk should have been.


but isn't there any other way other than the power attack route of being effective ?

Dual wielding kukri's with the champions of valor alternate class feature?

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-15, 05:23 PM
Sorry, have to clarify something...


I was providing sarcasm.

....and...


I damaged you some. You damaged me some. I could have still damaged you. You could have still damaged me. Game ended abruptly. You didn't exactly win there.

So what is it? Sarcasm or not? It is either one or the other.
Anyway, it the fighter/animal companion fight was not a draw. The DM asked to close the thread down because we could not agree on what constitues houserules in a core game (which I feel, prevents any kind of rematches).
The only thing that happened between us as players is I offered you to accept defeat but you did not.
A draw I consider is when players agree to a draw, as in the wizard/fighter duel with Superglucose.


Because I am supposed to give up my battle plans to the opponent? Really, Giacomo, really? I mean, if I was up against someone whom I could trust not to metagame, I might do it, but I just don't have that same confidence in you given your past behavior.

OK, I guess you owe me an apology for this statement. What past metagame behavior do you mean here?
And; how could I possibly metagame in a match that is closed down? It would not hurt now to reveal the plan for your animal companion that was constantly flying at a slower speed and unable to either throw rocks or close in for melee.


Dropping objects on people from high above in combat is considered "houseruling" in the world of Giacomo. Animal Companions having different feats than those laid out in the MM is houseruling as well.

Show me the core rules that outline dropping objects on people (not just rules for objects falling on you - you also need to mention the active hitting part, as is the precondition for all melee/ranged combat damage in the game).


Incidentally, iirc, you throwing up huge objections and arguing everything and anything that didn't go you way (something Saph has noticed as well, so it's not just me) definitely contributed to closing the thread.

Am I to remain silent when I perceive that a rule is not followed in a critical situation? In particular when I am doing a test or duel that is meant to show that the rules offer a balanced game? No.
I mention why I perceive a problem, wait for the ruling, possibly ask again if I think not all aspects have been considered, and then the DM rules.
And I do not think I am the only one here...:smallwink:

But in case you wish to go more deeply into this, let's PM and leave the thread alone.

- Giacomo

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-15, 05:32 PM
So what is it? Sarcasm or not? It is either one or the other.
False dichotomy. Next!


Anyway, it the fighter/animal companion fight was not a draw. The DM asked to close the thread down because we could not agree on what constitues houserules in a core game (which I feel, prevents any kind of rematches).
The only thing that happened between us as players is I offered you to accept defeat but you did not.
A draw I consider is when players agree to a draw, as in the wizard/fighter duel with Superglucose.

So if Kasparov never agreed that he drew with Deep Blue, then his matchs with the supercomputer in which they drew... were not draws?


OK, I guess you owe me an apology for this statement. What past metagame behavior do you mean here?
Reading other people's spoilers for one. Spoilers that were not for you.


And; how could I possibly metagame in a match that is closed down? It would not hurt now to reveal the plan for your animal companion that was constantly flying at a slower speed and unable to either throw rocks or close in for melee.
In that case, know that the flight pattern on your mount was vague, and could have included maneuvers that something of its average maneuverability could not have done, which would have resulted in it stalling and falling. I was planning on luring you into a situation using the bat's superior maneuverability where you would make an invalid move and be forced to plummit.

Either that or wait until you ran out of arrows and were forced to close in, in which case you'd come into attack me and then I'd hopefully survive, fly up 15 feet, and drop a very, very heavy bag of rocks down on the person right below me.


Show me the core rules that outline dropping objects on people (not just rules for objects falling on you - you also need to mention the active hitting part, as is the precondition for all melee/ranged combat damage in the game).
Are you saying that in core, you cannot drop rocks on people?


But in case you wish to go more deeply into this, let's PM and leave the thread alone.
So you feel a need to defend yourself... but at the same time, you want to leave the thread alone?

Which is it Giacomo? Either or!

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-15, 05:35 PM
]
So you feel a need to defend yourself... but at the same time, you want to leave the thread alone?

Which is it Giacomo? Either or!

Option 2. In confusion, I withdraw.

- Giacomo

Ernir
2009-12-15, 05:58 PM
I volunteer as a DM. Again.

My last final is tomorrow, so I need a new source of irritation. :smallconfused:

But maybe our DM (whoever steps forward) has different ideas altogether on how a core duel should go.

My ideas: The sources included are the PHB, DMG and MM1.
The applicable subset of the ToS 3.51 rules is used. Exceptions: Fighters are un-banned. The Enchantment and Abjuration schools are split up again.
One-use items cost 5 times the standard amount, charged items start with only 1/5 of the charges remaining. (DMG 199)
You have two buffing rounds. Also: In the case of spells and other effects with a duration of 24 hours or longer, you may consider them cast/activated at the start of the day as part of "routine preperation". What counts as "routine preperation" is subject to my whim. (Example: Extended Mage Armor.) In case of spells and other effects with a duration of 48 hours or longer, you may consider them cast/activated the day before, thus not counting against your spells that day. (Example: Contingency.)


Then there are my rule clarifications (or houserules, whatever you want to call them. These issues have come up before).
Contingencies are resolved instantaneously, not after the triggering event has been resolved. Contingency spells have no special sensory capabilities, they observe as a human commoner standing in your square would. Spells that mention causing their effects due to negative energy in the spell description are considered negative energy effects. Command-activated items that say they cause an effect "as" a particular spell does cause said effect by casting the spell on the wearer. Example: a Ring of Invisibility casts a CL 3 Invisibility spell on the wearer.

PM me if you want me.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-16, 02:42 PM
Option 2. In confusion, I withdraw.

- Giacomo

I changed my mind :smallsmile:
With Ernir's post I remembered that this thread also includes the preliminary co-ordination for a duel of Doc Roc's wizard vs my fighter. This may be interesting for others - including the OP.

Ernir, thanks a lot for your offer. I think your suggestions sound good and could well replace mine. I'll have a more profound look.
So far:
- Maybe one buffing round is enough, but I leave that to Doc Roc.
- I do not quite get the simultaneous thing for contingency - a triggering event should normally happen first and then the contingency, like this whole cause/effect thing. So far I have played it like, for instance "dimension door 100ft up in case I get attacked" and the attack is resolved before the contingency starts (because otherwise it is not an attack, but just an intention to attack which a commoner probably can't tell...). But I admit that contingency is tricky.
- hope your final final went OK!

- Giacomo

PS @Pharao's Fist: Maybe we two should start anew, in particular since in another dimension we fight side by side for survival:smallsmile:. I feel there were a lot of misunderstandings.
Maybe the following helps clarifying and improve our future discussions:

- when we discuss something, imo we need to be clear about definitions first. You see core rules as more ... flexible than I do which imo contributes to your opinion of quite high power of some game aspects, be it animal companions or wizard spells. Examples: of course animal companions are quite amazing when you can pick feats for them and let them bombard someone with special rules. And of course wizards are difficult to beat in combat when you interpret moment of prescience in such a way as to also apply to initiative checks.

- as I see it the core rules indeed provide rules for dropping rocks on someone. They are like improvised weapons and do the damage outlined in the falling objects section. This is what I suggested in our duel but you and Doc Roc would have preferred other solutions that are nowhere printed in the core rules.

- a draw is different from a match that is called off because something happened which the duelists did not discuss sufficiently before the match. My match vs Superglucose was a draw because both sides agreed to it. Our match of an animal companion vs a fighter was not a draw because we did not agree to that. To use your example, Kasparow would not call a draw vs deep blue when he realises that towards the end game deep blue puts some more queens on his side simply because he believes the rules say this is possible from move 40 onwards. The game would simply be called off, just like ours (OK, bad example maybe since there are no RAW debates for chess, so to speak :smallwink: ).

- having said all that, I would kindly ask you in future: before claiming in a public thread that I metagame or otherwise cast severe doubt on my ability to play (fair or competently), please back it up with proof like links to what I said etc. (which in turn could be then open for debate). That would be great.

sofawall
2009-12-16, 02:59 PM
- I do not quite get the simultaneous thing for contingency - a triggering event should normally happen first and then the contingency, like this whole cause/effect thing. So far I have played it like, for instance "dimension door 100ft up in case I get attacked" and the attack is resolved before the contingency starts (because otherwise it is not an attack, but just an intention to attack which a commoner probably can't tell...). But I admit that contingency is tricky.



The entire purpose of contingency is that it goes first. A contingent resist energy (fire) set to, for example "If a dragon breathes fire on me" is next to useless if the breath resolves first.

EDIT: And to be fair, there are a few times where you directly responded to something PF typed in a spoiler labeled "Saph" or "DM", not "Giacomo" or "Gladiator".

Grumman
2009-12-16, 04:17 PM
The entire purpose of contingency is that it goes first. A contingent resist energy (fire) set to, for example "If a dragon breathes fire on me" is next to useless if the breath resolves first.
Sure, but maybe that's your fault for using the spell poorly. The examples given in the PHB are not dependent on the contingency going first.

Doc Roc
2009-12-16, 04:43 PM
Nor are they contingent, to pun lightly, on the event being already completed. One might imagine a situation where I could split an event using an immediate action. A contingency, by raw, is as fast or faster than an immediate action. Now, one imagines that if I could detect an event at its very beginning, I could slice it there with an immediate.


A contingency, by raw, is quite nearly omniscient. Actions lack atomicity.
I am pleased to suggest that these two taken together are the root of the problem, but also sad to suggest that this is indeed how it works.

Arakune
2009-12-16, 04:44 PM
Sure, but maybe that's your fault for using the spell poorly. The examples given in the PHB are not dependent on the contingency going first.

"When being the target of [spell X/condition X/attack X/action X] that have yet to affect me".

Does that make it specific enough? I will trigger when X occurs, but only before it resolves.

Doc to the rescue.

Doc Roc
2009-12-16, 04:45 PM
I cordially suggest that a new thread be made, under the auspices of the ToS, for this Fighter-V-Wizard challenge.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-16, 05:19 PM
EDIT: And to be fair, there are a few times where you directly responded to something PF typed in a spoiler labeled "Saph" or "DM", not "Giacomo" or "Gladiator".

Where did I do that? Not that I'd exclude some mistaken response over 50 pages of game thread, but...

- Giacomo

Doc Roc
2009-12-16, 05:40 PM
I rarely spoiler things in duels. I just can't be arsed to care.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-17, 03:41 AM
I get mentioned multiple times, and no one PMs me? :smallwink:


OK, explanation of my self nova build:

I took 7 levels in Warblade, then 6 levels in Disciple of Disapater

I wielded two +1 Splitting Aptitude Crossbows.

With the feats Improved Critical, Roundabout Strike, and Lightning Mace, I criticalled on a 12-20, and then got 4 free attacks. I would effectively get near infinite attacks.

Unfortunately, I packed only 600 arrows in my bag of holding instead of finding some way to get infinite arrows.


So I started to fight Phoenix Rivers. He hit me with Death Urge, and I failed my will save. So I unload on my own chest, auto critical. This gives me 4 more attacks, and they all critical. This gives me 16 more attacks, they all crit. Etc etc etc, until I run out of arrows.



And it looks like Ernir has already volunteered for the honor of DMing this duel. I'm availabile as a contingency (no pun intended) if he encounters some IRL difficulty.

golentan
2009-12-17, 05:00 AM
I get mentioned multiple times, and no one PMs me? :smallwink:

OK, explanation of my self nova build:

I took 7 levels in Warblade, then 6 levels in Disciple of Disapater

I wielded two +1 Splitting Aptitude Crossbows.

With the feats Improved Critical, Roundabout Strike, and Lightning Mace, I criticalled on a 12-20, and then got 4 free attacks. I would effectively get near infinite attacks.

Unfortunately, I packed only 600 arrows in my bag of holding instead of finding some way to get infinite arrows.

So I started to fight Phoenix Rivers. He hit me with Death Urge, and I failed my will save. So I unload on my own chest, auto critical. This gives me 4 more attacks, and they all critical. This gives me 16 more attacks, they all crit. Etc etc etc, until I run out of arrows.

And it looks like Ernir has already volunteered for the honor of DMing this duel. I'm availabile as a contingency (no pun intended) if he encounters some IRL difficulty.

That was in the other thread. Dakkadadakkada.

I was going to PM you, but I figured a search might turn it up and I had a lot on my plate.

Killer Angel
2009-12-17, 05:28 AM
- having said all that, I would kindly ask you in future: before claiming in a public thread that I metagame or otherwise cast severe doubt on my ability to play (fair or competently), please back it up with proof like links to what I said etc. (which in turn could be then open for debate). That would be great.

Seems to me a fair request.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-17, 11:46 AM
Where did I do that? Not that I'd exclude some mistaken response over 50 pages of game thread, but...

- Giacomo
Allow me to refresh your memory.


First, Gia, I haven't used the word 'demon' in any of my descriptions to you or Tina. Please don't read spoiler brackets that are marked for other characters. I put them in spoilers for a reason.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-17, 01:34 PM
Ah, I see ...

I had a look at the post just before that where I used the word "demon". That was indeed using metagaming to a certain extent, because if I recall correctly from the beginning of our game in summer, I vaguely recognised from Saph's open description a few posts before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6445317&postcount=43) that humanoids with four arms and carrying two longbows are known as archer demons or some such thing (I remembered it from some archery discussion at WoTC I think).

I did not look at any spoilers here - it was a writing mistake for loss of what to call them (I typed from my mobile at that time, missing about 3 rounds of combat in a day before I was able to post again).

That I did not metagame anything that mattered becomes clear from the fact that my character died in that combat because of a very special ability those demons had: that of avoiding AoO when firing arrows even when threatened by melee attacks.

Hopefully that clarifies this whole thing. I take back that I asked you about an apology since I now see where this misunderstanding comes from.
Please also now take back your suspicion and we can forget about this whole thing.

- Giacomo

Ernir
2009-12-18, 12:38 AM
Humm. I guess I should have made it more clear I was waiting for a PM. :smallredface:

Anyways, thread dug up again.

I cordially suggest that a new thread be made, under the auspices of the ToS, for this Fighter-V-Wizard challenge.
I agree, we need a new thread.

"auspices" defeats my vocabulary. The dictionary says it has something to do with roman bird-watchers. Umm...

Where do you say you would like the thread? Would you like to make it? :smallconfused:


But. Giacomo and Doc Roc, I presume this means the challenge is definitely on. So, even if we still don't have a thread, you should be able to start the groundwork on your characters.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-18, 12:56 AM
I can also offer backup services for DMing.

My views are slightly different on Contingency, however.

To enforce balance, I wouldn't use omniscient Contingency, but nor would I limit it to a level 1 commoner's ability to detect. It would rely on the caster's senses (with any applicable enhancements, such as true seeing), and would sense independently.

For example: The contingency: "Dimension door if I am attacked" would work, prior to the attack landing, provided the caster could detect the attack coming (even if flat footed, such as, for example, in the surprise round... but not, for example, an attack coming from a hidden attacker)

The contingency: "Alarm spell if an enemy approaches within 30 feet." Would not work, as the spell requires judgement on what an enemy is, or isn't.

"Alarm spell if a biped approaches within 30 feet" would work. Further, it would even wake you up, as it uses your senses, but is independent of you.

However, if someone was on the other side of a door, or successfully hid while they approached (vs your spot modifier while awake, following all rules for hiding), they could circumvent it.

Ernir
2009-12-18, 01:07 AM
I can also offer backup services for DMing.

My views are slightly different on Contingency, however.

To enforce balance, I wouldn't use omniscient Contingency, but nor would I limit it to a level 1 commoner's ability to detect. It would rely on the caster's senses (with any applicable enhancements, such as true seeing), and would sense independently.

For example: The contingency: "Dimension door if I am attacked" would work, prior to the attack landing, provided the caster could detect the attack coming (even if flat footed, such as, for example, in the surprise round... but not, for example, an attack coming from a hidden attacker)

The contingency: "Alarm spell if an enemy approaches within 30 feet." Would not work, as the spell requires judgement on what an enemy is, or isn't.

"Alarm spell if a biped approaches within 30 feet" would work. Further, it would even wake you up, as it uses your senses, but is independent of you.

However, if someone was on the other side of a door, or successfully hid while they approached (vs your spot modifier while awake, following all rules for hiding), they could circumvent it.

I am fully prepared to discuss the powers of contingency. It is not like this is a traditional game of "1 DM, 2 players", it is "2 contestants, and one referee who tries to make sure everyone plays nice". If Sir Giacomo and Doc Roc both agree on one version of the spell, I will use it that way. Or we can make some sort of other compromise.

I have a feeling both of them will end up with the spell anyway. :smalltongue:

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-18, 01:16 AM
I am fully prepared to discuss the powers of contingency. It is not like this is a traditional game of "1 DM, 2 players", it is "2 contestants, and one referee who tries to make sure everyone plays nice". If Sir Giacomo and Doc Roc both agree on one version of the spell, I will use it that way. Or we can make some sort of other compromise.

I have a feeling both of them will end up with the spell anyway. :smalltongue:

Likely. Never let a little thing like no spellcasting stop you from casting spells, I say.