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View Full Version : Turnips, Gold and Wishes as applied to post-apocalyptic USA



cheezewizz2000
2009-12-15, 05:58 AM
Before anyone comes into this thread hoping for an insightful monologue regarding the economy of a post-apocalyptic world, I want to get right off the bat that this is not what I am providing. This is more inspired by the thread army logistics revisted (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133839), which is booping awesome and required reading, and centred around asking how that economy could be applied to a post-apocalyptic scenario. There is also a significant amount of PEACH requested here as well, as this applies to my (3.5) campaign setting.

The Background:
I will be running a game with a group of friends in the not-too-distant future set after a cataclysmic event, the result of which is the resurgance of magic into the "real world" and the sudden frying of all electrical equipment. Each region will have its own issues, such as China's terracotta army turning out to be a load of dormant clay golems under the command of the chinese emperor (and all the fun that brings for those currently in the british museum), and the re-appearance of fey and King Arthur in the UK, but I want to focus on the issues that the US will face as that is where the first campaign will be set.

A red dragon necromancer has been trapped beneath yellowstone for quite a while now and has resurfaced thanks to it erupting. Through some dark ritual, the specifics of which I haven't yet figured out, it is causing the dead to rise as zombies, which are homebrewed to be contageous, but also vulnerable to called shots to the head (effective and optional +4 size bonus to AC, but no DR and not immune to criticals). The sun has been blotted out by ash, at least over the US (Queztacoatl, Canadian-Indian spirits, Japanese Oni and European Fey won't let the ash cloud spread any further, and are commiting significant resources to keeping it out of their respective lands) and most of the continental US is plagued by zombies. The players will be a group of people from Wales, Wisconsin who's job it is to survive/escape/determine the future of the US in future campaigns.

Here's where the economics come in:
Obviously, the dollar is suddenly worthless, cutting out the gold economy. Food is now the currency of choice and as time wares on, it gets pretty rare. The only good stuff is tinned and producing your own food in a volcanic winter is pretty hard to do. Ammo would be the next major currency as, again, no-one is producing it, and it's necessary for survival. The wish economy is not considered as there are no (human) casters of high enough level yet.

And here's my question: How would the sudden re-valuing of the turnip and gold affect the economy? What do forum-goers expect would be the result of this? I'm thinking that banditry would be rife and that gun-stores and supermarkets would be turned into fortresses that get laid seige to constantly by desperate, hungry surviors, but how does this apply to players beyond providing the odd adventure seed? (IE: people have a supermarket and aren't letting people in/you have a supermarket and there's not enough food to go around. People want in.)

jseah
2009-12-15, 06:34 AM
Firstly, you need to make sure to wipe all 1st world civilizations.

ALL.

Leaving one country still going strong (relatively, since trade is impossible now) means that any surviving universities immediately apply scientific methods to magic.

You don't want to go there.

cheezewizz2000
2009-12-15, 06:54 AM
Firstly, you need to make sure to wipe all 1st world civilizations.

ALL.

Leaving one country still going strong (relatively, since trade is impossible now) means that any surviving universities immediately apply scientific methods to magic.

You don't want to go there.

Actually, that's pretty much exactly where I was going to go. The only magic they will have access to though is the sorcerous kind and ancient books that talk about knowledge of the Arcane Arts and how to produce Wizards. Rome and London would produce the "first" wizards, based on re-interpretations of books in the archives of the Vatican and the University of London. The first Wizards would be multiclassed sorcerers as they have a natural talent for magic and so would "obviously" be the best students to start with.

But I want to know how the "turnips, gold and wishes" economies can be applied to a post-appocalyptic setting.

Lysander
2009-12-15, 07:09 AM
Supermarkets aren't defensible. They might be targets initially but soon they'll be looted and their supplies taken to more secure locations.

Currency would depend on how post-apocalyptic things are. If there is still an economy, even a primitive one, gold and silver would retain some value. We don't have a gold economy now so the dollar becoming worthless would not by itself affect gold. If things are really bad only food and supplies would be worth anything. Perhaps it could vary by region - more intact areas accept silver nickles and mercury dimes, more devastated regions don't. I could see canned food being a currency, as well as medicine/first-aid supplies, tools, and other irreplaceable objects.

BooNL
2009-12-15, 07:30 AM
I would also depend whether electricity is still running or if communities have a steady way to create it (gas fueled back-up generators won't last long).

Commercial coolers used by restaurants and hotels (especially hotels, they usually have big coolers) could work as central storerooms and are quite defensible.
Most of the hotels I've seen the backstage area of usually have their coolers in the cellar.

Brendan
2009-12-15, 07:40 AM
well, for encounters, perhaps some more mystical of the monsters, like the nagas, as they seem to me to be the closest thing to a lot of ancient native american mythos.
oh, and our words. Tarrasque in south america.

cheezewizz2000
2009-12-15, 08:02 AM
I would also depend whether electricity is still running or if communities have a steady way to create it (gas fueled back-up generators won't last long).

Commercial coolers used by restaurants and hotels (especially hotels, they usually have big coolers) could work as central storerooms and are quite defensible.
Most of the hotels I've seen the backstage area of usually have their coolers in the cellar.

Electricity isn't working. Mechanics wise, it's because I don't want them having access to the internet or the ability to use cars. Fluff-wise, it's because the Earth's magnetic field is fluctuating enough to amplify electric currents in circuits enough to blow out normal wires. Fridges are right out.


Currency would depend on how post-apocalyptic things are.

In terms of "how post apocalyptic", I was going to go with as much as could be believeable.


We don't have a gold economy now so the dollar becoming worthless would not by itself affect gold.

By gold economy, I don't really mean currencies tied to the price of gold or the gold standard. I mean the use of coins in trade, as distinct from the "turnip economy" (commoners bartering with the food they have produced) and "wish economy" (based on the fact that a high level Wizard can produce a 15,000gp magic item at the drop of a hat, but never anything more).

I sort of wonder how much people would still value money even after the collapse of the banks. Would they retain some "value" so long as people still think they do? How long before the need for food outweighs any value the money still retains? Would ammo start to be tradeable in place of coins as it is inherently useful, in a world overrun by zombies and more easily transported than food, or would a might-makes-right attitude take over, and those people with the most ammo and weapons (I.E. those than horde it rather than trade it) be the most successful in surviving?

Johel
2009-12-15, 08:31 AM
I'm going to stop you at that point :
The problem isn't to survive the apocalypse.
It's to survive a several thousands years old hungry red dragon with epic magic.

Whatever make-shift stronghold you can build, it will be snack for the dragon once it will reach a certain demography. No amount of armor is going to endure the furnace of 24d10 fire damage. Not when 15 fire damage is enough to kill anybody (except John McClane and Chuck Norris). Not when the monster is going to breath every 24 seconds. And can cast a spell if you resist nevertheless...

cheezewizz2000
2009-12-15, 09:10 AM
The problem isn't to survive the apocalypse.
It's to survive a several thousands years old hungry red dragon with epic magic.

While a highly valid point, the dragon is not necessarily epic, just has access to some sort of epic ritual. I figured it would be a once only thing, requiring a lot of sacrifices of her brood. The Dragon need not be much higher than CR20, or even CR(plot) if the players find out about it early enough. Though that's not to say that if by some miricle of terrible DMing that I let it slip that a Dragon is behind the whole thing at level 4 that the party would travel to Yellowstone to find a wyrmling in black robes with a skull-staff.

The main reasons that the dragon isn't going to be killing them off early are many-fold:

Unawareness of their existance (at least at first)
Villainous Arrogance
The fact that Yellowstone is ~1,300 miles from their starting point. Most of the Dragon's attention would be focused on the West Coast/Canada as they are nearer and so provide much more immediate sources of people to enslave. Its general motivation is that it covets life itself and wants to horde as much of it as possible. Creating an undead horde is the easiest way to go about it.

The hope is that the players will not even be aware of the Dragon until long after their adventuring career has started. They may not even become aware of the Dragon at all in their adventure. My hope is that they either escape to Canada (about 550miles away), or try to set up some sort of East-Coast resistance to the Zombie horde. The dragon is an issue for a later campaign, or for them once they hit later levels (probably around 15 or so, if they can also raise an army).

But this is getting awfully PEACH for a thread in roleplaying games. While I did ask, the general point of the thread was to discuss how the post apocalyptic economy would work, so I could work out how best to conduct trade with the other surviors.

Prime32
2009-12-15, 10:26 AM
How did electricity vanish? Because the first thing I would try if this happened would be to set up a lightning rod, and the second would be to learn shocking grasp.

EDIT: Oh, you said electrical equipment. Well, it shouldn't take too long for people to start rebuilding computers... that can interface with magic. :smalleek:

thubby
2009-12-15, 10:51 AM
all major currencies are currently fiat money, meaning they are only as valuable as people say it is. as such it could well stay in use.
i think you're underestimating the ease with which one can make munitions. anyone with the know-how could make crude shot from household items. the guns themselves would be extremely valuable though.

tobacco and booze sell, always.

Gravitron5000
2009-12-15, 10:57 AM
... and so it begins (http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9028040)

Weezer
2009-12-15, 11:03 AM
I would imagine that the primary means of exchange would quickly become almost exclusively bottle caps. It makes perfect sense, they're pretty much ubiquitous, small, light, easy to stack, and almost impossible to replicate in post-apocalyptic circumstances. All in all i think they are your answer for what would make a good currency after an apocalypse like the one you describe. :smallbiggrin:

Temet Nosce
2009-12-15, 11:07 AM
all major currencies are currently fiat money, meaning they are only as valuable as people say it is. as such it could well stay in use.
i think you're underestimating the ease with which one can make munitions. anyone with the know-how could make crude shot from household items. the guns themselves would be extremely valuable though.

tobacco and booze sell, always.

Further, reusing ammunition is even more ridiculously easy and something people practice even today (I used to when I used my guns more). It's not at all hard to refill a cartridge.

Also, assuming you're basing this in the real world... Some people are going to be abusing the rules. It won't take that long for them to notice if things are working under D&D rules.

Oh, and how long after the apocalypse is this? If the sun is really blotted out and electric items nonfunctional there's not going to be a food shortage - there's going to be a food absence. There simply won't be any in most places and there very well might not be anyone left alive if it's very long after.

cheezewizz2000
2009-12-15, 11:45 AM
Oh, and how long after the apocalypse is this?

2 weeks, so not long.


... and so it begins
I dunno, that magma chambre looks an awful lot like a Dragon's lair to me... I should know, I'm a geologist :smallbiggrin:


Further, reusing ammunition is even more ridiculously easy and something people practice even today (I used to when I used my guns more). It's not at all hard to refill a cartridge.

I was not aware of that. I thought bullets were a use once only kind of thing. That changes things slightly as I thought bullets would make a useful replacement for coin. The fact that they get used eventually would help to keep their value up.


Also, assuming you're basing this in the real world... Some people are going to be abusing the rules. It won't take that long for them to notice if things are working under D&D rules.

Besides one artificier at Cern, I don't think I'm going to have any 4th wall breaking characters that know they're in a game, and he's going to be bat-boop insane from the sudden, infinite knowledge he has.

Shademan
2009-12-15, 11:47 AM
you might wanna check out the D20 Modern Apocalypse trade system. buuut I think that goes for a wee bit more apocalyptic apocalypse...er...I mean... y'know.... later. long after the doom and destruction.

I might be wrong though.... just check it out.

Johel
2009-12-15, 01:15 PM
I would imagine that the primary means of exchange would quickly become almost exclusively bottle caps. It makes perfect sense, they're pretty much ubiquitous, small, light, easy to stack, and almost impossible to replicate in post-apocalyptic circumstances. All in all i think they are your answer for what would make a good currency after an apocalypse like the one you describe. :smallbiggrin:

The fact that they are useless except as metal scrap means people would probably just not use it at first.

People used metal currency first because it was rare, precious and durable. And when I say precious, I mean you can always melt those copper coins and use the metal for something else...like jewels or simply containers. After that, we kept using it mainly because it was tradition and still durable enough for everyday transactions...unlike paper money, which has to be changed after changing hands a few hundred times.

In a post apocalypse world where cities are full of metal, caps would just be more metal. A good currency would be tins at first. They are durable (some can be stored for years), useful (yummy, yummy), convert themselves into goods (they are goods...) and while a bit heavy, they are still lighter and more practical than gold.

After a while, once the first city-states are established and can store food and goods with minimum risk to be pillaged, these cities will issue their own money (maybe bottle caps ?), that one can exchange for food and goods stored into the city's warehouse. In effect, a coin would entitle its owner to take something from the warehouse if he wish so.

As some city-states survive and grow in size, so do their warehouses, to the point where they can actually issue more coins than they have goods in their warehouses, as people trust the coin's theorical value. This actually will allow city-states to basically live through debts, by anticipating future incomes to pay actual expenses.

Some city-states would abuse the "trust system" and emit too many coins. Once people would want to exchange those coins for warehouse goods, since the city-states won't have enough goods, they'll increase the price of the warehouse goods, reducing the actual value of their coins. These city-states will collapse soon or later, as nobody want to exchange his 50 tins for 50 coins if these 50 coins will only buy him 30 tins a few days latter.

Some city-states will understand the importance to keep a near-parity between stored goods and number of coins. These city-states will endebt themselves but to a manageable level so that they'll never need to raise their price, keeping the coin's value high. Eventually, because they can afford to pay latter for project and live of their debt, these city-states will be able to improve their infrastructure, to teach people and attract the qualified individuals.

Finally, once a city-state can reach a point where it can make deal with other city-states using only its own currency, it's a true nation, as the other city-states trust the main city-state's capacity to supply goods upon request enough to let down their own currency.

Beleriphon
2009-12-15, 01:19 PM
I was not aware of that. I thought bullets were a use once only kind of thing. That changes things slightly as I thought bullets would make a useful replacement for coin. The fact that they get used eventually would help to keep their value up.

Its not so much the actual bullet you shoot at the zombies, but the brass casing that holds the bullet and propellant. If you really think about it though a muzzle loading musket is easy enough to make (compared to an MP5) and doesn't even need the brass casing.

Riffington
2009-12-15, 01:23 PM
So seconding the resilience of human industry, including people making their own bullets or reusing them.
Food will be a huge issue. As previously stated, supermarkets will be quickly emptied.
In terms of money, dollars will probably keep their value until something replaces them. They are easily portable, and people are used to using them, and people trust that they're worth something. It's true that food and ammo will be more valuable - but I think dollars will stay valuable longer than the US government stays up. The only thing that will stop that is if there's massive counterfeiting (or something similar by the Mint).

Utah will fare relatively well (some Words of Wisdom there require keeping a year's food stockpiled)

Telonius
2009-12-15, 01:29 PM
Also, assuming you're basing this in the real world... Some people are going to be abusing the rules. It won't take that long for them to notice if things are working under D&D rules.


On that note, the Local Gaming Store will replace universities as centers of learning.

Bicycles would become highly prized, as would horses.

The bigger cities would really be up a creek. No traffic lights, no public transit, no refrigeration ... I would expect large-scale food riots within a few weeks. Cities of over a million people would be unlikely to survive unless they have some seriously committed and organized citizens. I could see some mountain strongholds like Denver and Pittsburgh surviving in some form - Pittsburgh especially, given the number of surrounding Amish communities that never used electricity anyway. (Though given its history, it might be the first location any aspiring Necromancer considers to start his zombie apocalypse).

Basic skills are going to be highly prized. Any Ren-faire people are going to be very sought-after. You know how to forge a sword? Great, you're the next Rockefeller.

LibraryOgre
2009-12-15, 02:26 PM
1) Grab SM Stirling's Dies the Fire. Their situation is different (no massive fire dragon, they also lose firearms and a few other things), but the fact is that pretty much everyone living in a city is going to die. Most folks don't have enough food to last through a long siege, and they don't have the weapons to last one, either. Even folks who can reload their own brass are going to run low on powder and lead eventually.
In big cities, it gets even worse. You might see a few fortified subdivisions, but reducing a city's police department to the horse patrol, and their communications to horseback at best, and you've got problems coordinating; for reference, take a look at the city of Houston on a map... from Katy to Channelview is about a day's hard march. There may be seven or eight police departments in that area, but you're still looking at a LOT of ground to cover.

2) A lot comes down to the distribution of magic. Do today's modern magicians have spell powers? What about priests? If the 80-year-old Catholic priest can cast Create Food and Water, you're going to have a lot of Catholics in that area. If some of those modern druids can manage "Purify Food and Water", you're going to have a lot of folks following them. If today's magicians can now throw firebolts which can drive off the people coming to steal food... well, they're going to be popular, and may make themselves into tyrants.

If you're basing it in your area, drive around for a while. See what you think would survive the apocalypse. Look at places near your house where food and tools can be gathered, and realize those are targets as soon as the rioting starts.

For the first couple of days (maybe even weeks), you'll have a barter economy... people trading old-world valuables for food and tools. That will tail off quickly, however, as soon as food and tools start becoming scarce on the market. Then, economy is going to be based on real value. We have a somewhat arbitrary value system right now, but when you're a turnip or three away from starving, someone else offering you a lot of gold is not going to convince you to give up your turnips. It's only when things get stable enough to produce things that you'll have a more arbitrary and less use-based economy start to emerge. When you know that an ounce of gold will buy you food, you're willing to take an ounce of gold in exchange for food.

cheezewizz2000
2009-12-15, 02:51 PM
Not my area, unfortunately. I'm UK based, but I have other, less zombie-apocalypse based ideas for the UK (Fey Wildhunts, cities taken over by forests, massive reduction in farmland).

Priests and druids will have powers, but no one will be higher than level 3. In some exceptional cases, an army chaplain may be level 5 or 7, but most of his levels will be in fighter. High level spellcasters just don't exist. Magicians in the sense of party illusionists will probably have bard levels. They may find they are able to do a few more tricks more realisticly, but nothing that may afford them the ability to be leaders of men.

The ocasional awkward kid will find themselves with sorcerous powers, but that's the extent of arcanists. I doubt any magicians (arcane or divine) will have enough clout to do anything spectacular.

I will look for Dies the Fire, it sounds interesting.

erikun
2009-12-15, 03:31 PM
Two weeks after D-day? Food is going to be the #1 priority, and will be for several years. (At least until the environment recovers enough that you can plant crops, harvest wild plants, or hunt something edible.) Weapons are going to be #2, as they help gather and protect #1. Modes of transportations, along with communications if possible will also be high on the list.

"Currency" will probably be preserved foods, at least for awhile. Tin cans especially, because you can tell the exact volume of food and they are hard to fake. Some people may fiercely gather/hoard gold and jewelry, but it really wouldn't be traded frequently - prehaps exchanging a pretty necklace for a can of food, but nothing along the lines of a gold market.

Places holding physical, written knowledge will probably be very big hotspots. It may be the end of the world, but people haven't suddenly become stupid. Books can tell you how to make cars and computers, or at least how to make bows or hotwire a factory. Some extreme anarchists will likely try to burn them down, but expect most places to guard libraries at least as well as the food pantry.

(If things go on like this for a decade or so, libraries will likely lose significance. The longer the knowledge is useless, the less worthwhile it will be.)

Churches will be popular gathering spots, for obvious reasons. Good or bad.

Johel
2009-12-15, 03:32 PM
So seconding the resilience of human industry, including people making their own bullets or reusing them.
Food will be a huge issue. As previously stated, supermarkets will be quickly emptied.
In terms of money, dollars will probably keep their value until something replaces them. They are easily portable, and people are used to using them, and people trust that they're worth something. It's true that food and ammo will be more valuable - but I think dollars will stay valuable longer than the US government stays up. The only thing that will stop that is if there's massive counterfeiting (or something similar by the Mint).

Utah will fare relatively well (some Words of Wisdom there require keeping a year's food stockpiled)


The only reason why dollar has any value is because US industry produce goods and services, which are taxed by the governement.
Rather than taking a share of the goods you produce, the governement ask you to pay taxes with dollars.
On the side, the governement buy you goods and services with dollars that it prints.
Now, the governement has the goods he needs and you have the dollars to pay your taxes to the governement and probably keep some dollars aside.
As time went by, you exchange your remaining dollars for goods and services that other people have produced. These people accept your dollars because they have taxes to pay too.
When dealing on an international level, US companies ask to be paid in dollars because that's what they'll have to use then to purchase goods at home and to pay their taxes at home.
Other countries accept the dollars as a currency because they know there'll always be US companies to deliver goods and services in exchange for dollars.


The government is the first in the dollar chain and the last in it too. Taxes are some kind of 0-wealth service : you have to pay them but you receive nothing in exchange. Each cycle bring enough value to government to justify the use of worthless papers as currency, since people HAVE to pay taxes with that currency because of the law.

Now, if the US government disappear, there's no more law and no more taxes in dollars, unless some warlords fancy Georges Washington.

Whoever is last in the dollar chain is stuck with tons of worthless paper unless he can somehow exchange them for goods... but since the whole industry felt to the ground, there won't be much to exchange them for and nobody will want to be the last in the dollar chain. Result : massive inflation as there's a lot of dollars but very few goods and, since the main universal buyer for dollars (aka the government) disappeared, there's no reason to trust the potential value of a inflating currency.

thubby
2009-12-15, 03:38 PM
Basic skills are going to be highly prized. Any Ren-faire people are going to be very sought-after. You know how to forge a sword? Great, you're the next Rockefeller.

i doubt it, guns still work. and they can be made without electricity.

people, a lot of the stuff in the world still works without electricity! yes losing electronics would be disastrous, but it wouldn't throw us into the middle ages.

Thatguyoverther
2009-12-15, 03:48 PM
What about Clerics?

Does every priest, reverend, pastor, imam, rabbi and monk get to tap into divine magic or what?

It would be interesting to see the Pope as an epic level divine caster.

Telonius
2009-12-15, 03:56 PM
i doubt it, guns still work. and they can be made without electricity.

people, a lot of the stuff in the world still works without electricity! yes losing electronics would be disastrous, but it wouldn't throw us into the middle ages.

Guns do still work, but they eventually run out of ammunition. You have to have a fairly high-functioning society to start mass-producing bullets without the use of an electricity- and automobile-enabled factory. (Gotta transport the raw materials to your workshop, ship them out to the soldiers afterwards, have enough leftover food to feed your armorers, have enough light to work by, enough fuel to heat the crucibles, etc).

Even something as relatively simple as a bullet requires several different kinds of materials to produce - not all of which can be easily found everywhere, especially if you're looking for smokeless powder instead of gunpowder.

cheezewizz2000
2009-12-15, 04:00 PM
How the priests of the modern world is a little beyond the scope of the Forum's rules. The pope MIGHT be a cleric, but that requires at least a modicum of practice casting spells. As for epic level, the pope has not been casting spells every day for his entire life, so he isn't used to having that sort of power coursing through his frail human body. He will probably find he is able to cast level 1 spells.

Rank is not level, and Obama isn't a level 20 aristocrat just because he's president. If anything, most world leaders are level 1-3 Experts and Bards with maxed ranks in perform (oratory) and skill focus.

LibraryOgre
2009-12-15, 04:06 PM
Not my area, unfortunately. I'm UK based, but I have other, less zombie-apocalypse based ideas for the UK (Fey Wildhunts, cities taken over by forests, massive reduction in farmland).

Priests and druids will have powers, but no one will be higher than level 3. In some exceptional cases, an army chaplain may be level 5 or 7, but most of his levels will be in fighter. High level spellcasters just don't exist. Magicians in the sense of party illusionists will probably have bard levels. They may find they are able to do a few more tricks more realisticly, but nothing that may afford them the ability to be leaders of men.

The ocasional awkward kid will find themselves with sorcerous powers, but that's the extent of arcanists. I doubt any magicians (arcane or divine) will have enough clout to do anything spectacular.

I will look for Dies the Fire, it sounds interesting.

In addition to Dies the Fire, get the second in the series, The Protectors War. It goes into what happened in England a lot more (short version: The Army, along with Charles and elements of the government make an escape with some people to the Isle of Wight to escape rioting looters. When most of the people were dead of starvation, they began to repopulate Britain. Then Charles married an Icelander and went a bit nuts, but that's another story).

In terms of magicians, I'm not referring to party illusionists; I'm talking about folks who study magic in the modern day. The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, various chaos magicians, houngans, ceremonial magicians, etc. Some versions of modern magical theory aren't that different from 3.x psionics, while others go heavily into ceremony and the like.

cheezewizz2000
2009-12-15, 04:14 PM
In terms of magicians, I'm not referring to party illusionists; I'm talking about folks who study magic in the modern day. The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, various chaos magicians, houngans, ceremonial magicians, etc. Some versions of modern magical theory aren't that different from 3.x psionics, while others go heavily into ceremony and the like.

Hmm... Probably warlocks for the ones with any genuine ability, not necesarily diabolical, there would be some fey pacts in there. Others who are on to something would probably be experts with ranks in knowlege (arcana) and spellcraft. They would be instrumental in setting up the first magical universities. The riuals they desribe may produce real arcane effects, but not in the same way as a spell. After all, most spells have a casting time of less than 6 seconds, while some rituals take hours. Wizardry would essentially be the art of taking those rituals and performing a version stripped-down enough to still produce the effect, but take less time.

LibraryOgre
2009-12-15, 04:15 PM
i doubt it, guns still work. and they can be made without electricity.

people, a lot of the stuff in the world still works without electricity! yes losing electronics would be disastrous, but it wouldn't throw us into the middle ages.

Guns work. And you can recycle brass cartridges into casings, and load a bullet without electricity.

But what do you do when the powder runs out? You can make black powder without electricity, but to make finer powders without power is going to get harder and harder, especially in quantity. While you can recycle brass cartridges, you cannot do so indefinitely.

A sword is not an ideal weapon in the modern world; guns are relatively cheap and plentiful, ammo doubly so, and most people don't have a need for a gun on a day to day basis; most of our security is handled by a combination of social compact and police enforcement... some people who would rob you don't because they're afraid of getting caught and punished.

However, if you break down society, a lot of things change. The social compact idea breaks down when people are starving... especially if you have food and they do not. While person A might have enough food for person A, person B only sees food... not that there isn't enough food for A+B. Thus person A either needs to be able to defend what he has, or he loses it. A gun is a fine weapon, and far better than a sword in most situations... but when the gun, and its bullets, are too valuable to use for every threat, a sword is a lot more reusable.

Random832
2009-12-15, 04:22 PM
(edited - noting that it's not really possible to discuss - among other things - the availability of divine spellcasting in the context of this sort of setting without breaking forum rules)

Thatguyoverther
2009-12-15, 04:28 PM
The pope MIGHT be a cleric, but that requires at least a modicum of practice casting spells. As for epic level, the pope has not been casting spells every day for his entire life, so he isn't used to having that sort of power coursing through his frail human body. He will probably find he is able to cast level 1 spells.


So... infallibility counts for nothing? :smalltongue:

On a darker note I'd expect, optimistically, that about 90% of the worlds population to die in the first year or so. The majority from starvation. The U.S. produces a large percentage of the world's food supply and if the people there are starving everywhere else is going to feel the crunch. The loss of arable land is compounded by the fact that most of the equipment used to plant and harvest food won't work.

Even if there was enough food for everyone people in cities are going to starve, without the current infrastructure to move large quantities of food it simply won't be possible to move enough to feed everyone.

Add in the antagonistic magical fauna, infighting and lack of health care and allot of people are going to be dead in short order.

The good news is that after a couple of bloody death filled years things will stabilize. Without all those additional mouths consuming, what's left of the world agriculture will be enough to feed what's left of the people.

Oslecamo
2009-12-15, 04:35 PM
The good news is that after a couple of bloody death filled years things will stabilize. Without all those additional mouths consuming, what's left of the world agriculture will be enough to feed what's left of the people.

From there, groups of four people(a thief, a wizard, a cleric and a fighter) will go out of their relatively stable village in order to explore the underground facilities dungeos of the great lost civilizations. Going from point of light to point of light, they'll discover a many fantastic things, and then kill/loot them.

And so the cycle begins anew.:smalltongue:

cheezewizz2000
2009-12-15, 04:38 PM
There's an unstated assumption you're making there...

Not sure I should be pointing it out, though, either. Bit of a catch-22, that. How about we just say "It's not really possible to discuss - among other things - the availability of divine spellcasting in the context of this sort of setting without breaking forum rules" and leave it at that?

Agreed. I will edit my previous post

Randel
2009-12-15, 05:12 PM
Okay, my attempt to stay on-topic:

There was a story arc in the Batman comics called No Mans Land where Gotham city was largely destroyed by a freak earthquake and the US government decided to just barricade the place off from the rest of the country. Gotham quickly fell into disuse and was getting carved up into sections by the Police, various villains, small time crimminals, and then Batman.

Its worth reading because here are a few things about the economy of it that could help.

1. Right after the place collapsed the real 'currency' that could be used was your Skills. If you know how to sew up holes in clothes then you can join a gang and they protect you, you know how to fix and maintain weapons and equipment and they help you, if you're a web designer... figure out how to swing a pipe, if you're a "Stressful Situations Counceler" who's main skill is to help people in tough situations talk through their problems then you'd better be REAL good at your job or someone might just kill you and use your corpse to let people know not to waste their time.

2. As above, if you're a woman you have at least something to barter with... even if its not that fun (best get something else to barter with first).

3. If you can fight then you've got a place. People need someone to fight zombies and its likely that they will pay you to do it instead of them.

4. Food, water and medicine are naturally a big thing to have. Less appealing foods are worth less than the real tasty stuff. If you are a good cook who can make meals out of anything then you've probably got some job security (be the gangs cook, they give you the canned food they find and you turn it into tasty stuff thats better than eating out of the can). Fresh vegetables would be worth quite a bit (if someone has plenty of dog food they might be willing to trade a few cans of it for a fresh apple... or some ketchup). Expect all the dogs, rats, and small animals to start disappearing when people get hungry.

5. People with the skills to set up water-purification plants or hydroponics systems would be pretty good, but they would need protection.

6. Even if bullets are running low, bows and arrows and slings and stones can be used. If you've got the skills to carve bows and arrows and make weapons than you've got a job and can sell them or join a team. Making explosives out of household detergents and a cannon out of a pipe and hairspray would be a big skill... assuming your weapon is actually effective. Knives, swords, spears, and shivs are valuable... or better than nothing.

7. If someone has access to food or valuable weapons or tools then they might sell them in exchange for gold, diamonds or artwork. In No Mans Land, the Penguin managed to get a link to the outside and was trading fresh food and vegetables to people in exchange for jewerly, art pieces, and fine wine. He basically lived like a king while the survivors scrounged for supplies.

8. On that note, jewelry is alternatly either useless so that people won't trade you food for it... or they will just beat you up and take it from you. The people who would actually want diamonds are most likely rich enough that they have food and weapons already... and the means to protect what they have and want. Thus, its best to save art pieces and jewels and stuff until you can actually trade them... even if a Rolex watch will just get you an apple.

9. Also, if there are magical creatures there, some of them might be bargained with. In Gotham, Poison Ivy took over central park and used her powers to grow fresh fruit and vegetables to feed the starving city... though at first it was because Clayface captured her and forced her to do so (so he could sell them to Penguin), later it was because Batman came in beat up Clayface and ordered her to give food directly to the people.

Also, Ivy took in all of the orphaned children from the city and put them under her protection. The children could walk among the plants unharmed and helped he harvest the fruit but anyone else who tried to get in would get ripped apart by her plant monsters. She's also later found Harley Quinn and gave her a potion that boosted her strength and durability enough to fight Batman and survive Jokers repeated attempts to blow her up.

10. Also about artwork: Books can burn. People who are out in the cold in a place without power might start burning books, furniture, or artwork to survive. Mr. Freeze exploited this at one point, getting a power plant set up and having the various gangs strip the city or furniture and art so he could burn it for fuel... he got a big kick out seeing people destroying heirlooms and artwork just for a few hours of heat on a cold night.

11. Expect slavery to crop up. Some people have next to nothing to give or are too weak to fight off stronger people. They might be used as grunt labor carrying loot from wreaked buildings for their owners. Or they could be working in sweat shops or other things (one issue had slaves being forced to pedal on bikes hooked to generators to supply power to a nightclub).

With zombies around, then slavery could be a decent way to keep people alive. If someone shows up with nothing to offer but their bodies then take them as a slave and put them to work scrubbing toilets or something. Better that then having them wander off and get turned into zombies.

12. Also... cannibalism. If you've got twenty people and nothing to eat... then later you can hive nineteen people and enough to eat for a day or two. If you don't eat them, the zombies will. Also, if some supernatural creatures are willing to barter then you can offer up some captured enemies or slaves.

Vampires like blood, strike a risky bargain with one and he might count your team as his personal herd of cattle. He could then use his powers to keep the zombies at bay and maybe get you some food.

Imagine finding an old mansion somewhere and when you enter you see its filled with beautiful women and the table is set with delicious food. Only find out later that the place is under the control of a vampire who's keeping his 'little doves' well fed and protected so that he can feed off them. Where did that delicious food come from? Will the vampire let you out alive to tell about this? What happened to all the men?

13. Not sure if this is how you want to run it, but its possible that someone could have electronic equipment working somewhere even if the Earths electromagnetic field is messing everything up. There could be a secret military installation with a room that is completly encased in EMP shielding. Electronics can only work inside that room, it could have some interesting equipment there for making microchips or a database filled with information. It probably won't contain the whole Internet but it could have stuff in there.

Random Idea: there are many Ragnarok-proof bunkers distributed around the US with EMP shielded rooms. There isn't enough space in all of them to carry an entire database and the plan was that they would all wait with portions of the database and link up later. They can't link up via the phone lines or satalites due to the EMP field but they can make CDs that can survive the trip. The players then go to each bunker, retrieve the CDs and collect them all at one place to get all the data they need for... something that could save the world. The CDs are pretty much worthless anywhere except in the bunkers where there is equipment to read them. I'm guessing they could be worth a Wish (or mundane equivalent) to whoever remains of the government and is running the bunkers. Or the stuff being moved around could be fabricated electronic components put in shielded suitcases or something. Basically McGuffins that are ultra valuable in the shielded areas but useless outside.


14. Finally, if there are mythical figures running around, if there are any artifacts, rituals, or things that can affect them then they become valuable. Copies of the Bible if christian angels show up, silver if werewolves show up, if vampires are scared of garlic or get stunned when you drop poppy seeds on the ground then get those... and if there are any churches or sacred areas where the zombies refuse to set foot on then those places become ultra-valuable.

Find a church where zombies refuse to enter and the congregation remains in safety and you can bet that the priest there has a good sway in what happens (even if he's not responsible for it). In a sacred sanctuary, everyone agrees not to fight. Don't threaten the priest, don't take down the cross... something is keeping the monsters from coming in and until you figure out what it is then don't mess up anything.

cheezewizz2000
2009-12-15, 05:21 PM
Nice ideas randal, thanks! I had considered having electrical equipment in magnetically shielded rooms survive. If the players find them, bully for them. I'm not sure what they can get out of them though... A couple of adventure seeds, perhaps.

thubby
2009-12-15, 05:36 PM
Guns work. And you can recycle brass cartridges into casings, and load a bullet without electricity.

But what do you do when the powder runs out? You can make black powder without electricity, but to make finer powders without power is going to get harder and harder, especially in quantity. While you can recycle brass cartridges, you cannot do so indefinitely.

A sword is not an ideal weapon in the modern world; guns are relatively cheap and plentiful, ammo doubly so, and most people don't have a need for a gun on a day to day basis; most of our security is handled by a combination of social compact and police enforcement... some people who would rob you don't because they're afraid of getting caught and punished.

However, if you break down society, a lot of things change. The social compact idea breaks down when people are starving... especially if you have food and they do not. While person A might have enough food for person A, person B only sees food... not that there isn't enough food for A+B. Thus person A either needs to be able to defend what he has, or he loses it. A gun is a fine weapon, and far better than a sword in most situations... but when the gun, and its bullets, are too valuable to use for every threat, a sword is a lot more reusable.

swords require maintenance too, you realize? you want a low overhead weapon, grab a crowbar.
guns were the primary weapon well before the advent of electricity and they were readily available. even metal jacketed munitions were available before the widespread availability of electricity.
so you don't have to be able to make ammo forever, though you probably could if you were clever, just long enough for someone to figure out how to market guns again.

Randel
2009-12-15, 07:06 PM
Nice ideas randal, thanks! I had considered having electrical equipment in magnetically shielded rooms survive. If the players find them, bully for them. I'm not sure what they can get out of them though... A couple of adventure seeds, perhaps.

Maybe advanced equipment for creating medicine or sequencing a cure for the zombie virus... or to decrypt the code needed to perform magic or something. Like there is a spectrometer that lets them measure the electromagnetic signature of arcane energy or something. Effectively letting them cast some specific spells, but only from the presence of that shielded room.

The Salvation War (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSalvationWar) does this (first story is here (http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=118771)). In it Heaven and Hell declare war on Earth. Hell exists as a parallel universe and they can access earth by opening portals or using psychic links. There are psychic people on Earth who can get images of whats going on in Hell (they are usually insane and in mental institutions due to their nightmarish visions).

The scientists manage to find one and put her in a shielded area (to isolate the psychic wavelength) and then create a booster that amplifies her psychic length enough to open a portal to Hell.

In this, you could have it where a properly equipped lab could find a mage or sorcerer and then isolate the arcane wavelength enough to amplify some spells to give some extra spells per day or add caster levels. Most likely teleportation, scrying, healing, or generating resources would be the major spells to use. However, let them know that the setup is rickety and overusing it could cause some components to blow and that takes valuable resources to fix. As the campaign gets tougher, then advancements in their engineering and arcane knowledge let them use magic to their advantage to counteract the monsters.

In effect, mankind could potentially use their technology to harness magic and use it better than monsters and their enemies can. Sure, you can shoot a fireball. Or you could use teleportation to send a few dozen crates full of dynamite right into the enemies fortress. Though be careful that an enemy with experience using magic could outwit amateurs jury-rigging together an arcane computer.

Plus, with the EMP field in place, let it know that this arcane-tech rig only works in shielded areas and the EMP could fry them anywhere else. Mankind can potentially mass-produce magi-tech but they have to be really careful about it and its best to start training mages as soon as possible to work in the field.

LibraryOgre
2009-12-15, 07:31 PM
swords require maintenance too, you realize? you want a low overhead weapon, grab a crowbar.

Yes, they do. However, they don't require as sophisticated maintenance as something with several moving parts, a not-simple manufactured chemical propellant, and projectiles which may be lost or disintegrated. The basic maintenance routine for a sword? Clean on convenient cloth. Examine for damage. For a firearm? Unload. Examine for damage. Clean barrel (which may involve removal). Reload bullets. Reload gun with new bullets.


guns were the primary weapon well before the advent of electricity and they were readily available. even metal jacketed munitions were available before the widespread availability of electricity.
so you don't have to be able to make ammo forever, though you probably could if you were clever, just long enough for someone to figure out how to market guns again.

There's a big word you're missing, though. Infrastructure. Even during the Civil War (when we started seeing repeating rifles), there was infrastructure devoted to creating and maintaining weapons. Someone brought lead and brass together, and someone else made powder, and someone else made bullets, while someone else made rifles or pistols. While one person CAN do all this, that's going to be all they can do... and even then, they're going to wicked short of supplies, or have a horrible production schedule.

And, of course, what if your community doesn't HAVE a gunsmith? While there are a lot of people capable of it, not every small community is going to have one, and not every gunsmith is going to survive the Crash.

Guns won't be unheard of, but they won't be something you freely use UNLESS you're part of a large community that has good supplies of ammo and a dedicated gunsmith to make more.

Mr.Bookworm
2009-12-15, 07:42 PM
swords require maintenance too, you realize? you want a low overhead weapon, grab a crowbar.
guns were the primary weapon well before the advent of electricity and they were readily available. even metal jacketed munitions were available before the widespread availability of electricity.
so you don't have to be able to make ammo forever, though you probably could if you were clever, just long enough for someone to figure out how to market guns again.

I'm going to echo Mark Hall's recommendation of Dies the Fire. It's an excellent (in the action movie sort of way, not the War & Peace way) book, and it explores pretty well what would happen in a complete societal collapse caused by Crystal Dragon Jesus flipping the off switch on technology.

Swords require maintenance, but a lot less so than a gun. You can run through a swamp with a sword on your hip, and while you'll want to clean it afterwards, it'll still gut someone open like a fish. A gun won't.

Besides that, swords won't be the de-facto melee weapon of choice for a while. That will be knives, polearms (it's pretty easy to make a polearm with good stave and a knife), and a variety of blunt objects. Bows too, of course, since ammunition is much easier and construction is relatively simple.

Guns, while they'll remain the top dogs of the weapon world for a long time, will be unavailable to most people fairly quickly. Most people don't have the average ammo count of a FPS, and the rather severe demand for guns and ammo shortly after an apocalypse will ensure that getting your hands on more ammunition will be difficult, to say the least.

Furthermore, even if you have the know-how to create a gun and ammunition, you're probably not going to have the tools and materials (materials are a bit easier, though, given the massive amounts of high quality metals and other stuff present in modern society) necessary, unless you're experienced enough to actually make your own tools.

Ashtar
2009-12-15, 09:17 PM
I don't think you are going to run out of ammo... Maybe on a local level, but you'll be suprised how much is available on the global scale.

An Oxfam report of 2006 (http://www.controlarms.org/en/documents%20and%20files/reports/english-reports/ammunition-the-fuel-of-conflict) states : "The annual global output of small arms military ammunition is
now estimated at between 10 and 14 billion rounds – 33 million rounds a day."

So every year, we make enough to kill twice the world's population. And that doesn't count stocks.

and

"One of the world’s largest producers of military ammunition is the Lake
City Army Ammunition Plant in the USA. In 2005, the plant achieved a record output of 1.3 billion rounds."

So if I were crafty I'd head there and capture that for my supply.

LibraryOgre
2009-12-16, 05:36 PM
I don't think you are going to run out of ammo... Maybe on a local level, but you'll be suprised how much is available on the global scale.

An Oxfam report of 2006 (http://www.controlarms.org/en/documents%20and%20files/reports/english-reports/ammunition-the-fuel-of-conflict) states : "The annual global output of small arms military ammunition is
now estimated at between 10 and 14 billion rounds – 33 million rounds a day."

So every year, we make enough to kill twice the world's population. And that doesn't count stocks.

and

"One of the world’s largest producers of military ammunition is the Lake
City Army Ammunition Plant in the USA. In 2005, the plant achieved a record output of 1.3 billion rounds."

So if I were crafty I'd head there and capture that for my supply.

You ever look at firearms stats for the Vietnam war? While folks with hunting rifles and the like will be a lot more accurate than 18 year old rock'n'rolling with their M-16, ammo use will also go way up. Furthermore, most of that ammo is going to be spoken for quite quickly.

Again, it's not going to be "There are no guns!" It's going to be "The ammo is rare and expensive enough that firing guns is not going to be the preferred method of self defense if another is available."

Myrmex
2009-12-16, 05:42 PM
If you want an idea of what a post-apocalyptic anywhere would be like, read up on sub Saharan Africa.

thubby
2009-12-16, 05:48 PM
You ever look at firearms stats for the Vietnam war? While folks with hunting rifles and the like will be a lot more accurate than 18 year old rock'n'rolling with their M-16, ammo use will also go way up. Furthermore, most of that ammo is going to be spoken for quite quickly.

Again, it's not going to be "There are no guns!" It's going to be "The ammo is rare and expensive enough that firing guns is not going to be the preferred method of self defense if another is available."

people are nothing-if-not excessive in defense of their lives.

Riffington
2009-12-17, 01:57 AM
[LIST=1]
The only reason why dollar has any value is because US industry produce goods and services, which are taxed by the governement.

I don't think this is fully true. The dollar is certainly affected by government action, but it's valuable because of public perception. It is seen as a convenient store of value, easily portable, and universally recognized. People need some such store, and bullets and food are dandy, but so are dollars. You know very well that if you cross state lines, people there will also accept bullets, food, and dollars even if they've been living in a bomb shelter the whole time. And so you accept those things because you know others will trade for them (even if you have enough food and don't like the taste of dollars).

There will certainly be "inflation" regarding the price of food - but the dollar value of artwork will go way down. To the extent that anything will be usable in trade other than barter, it starts off as the dollar and keeps on being the dollar until you get a new government to hold more space in the American mind than the remembered US government. And that'll be years.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-17, 02:58 AM
Remember guys, this is only after two weeks. The PCs will only see the beginnings of this.

The first thing that would probably happen once people realize all their stuff isn't working is look to their neighbors. Once they realize everyone's crap isn't working, then they'll panic, probably even riot.

This will most likely lead to looting and the like, and since no new shipments of food will be coming in, Costco is going to be empty after a couple of days. People aren't going to pay for anything with money anymore. Why should they? They could just loot it from mom-n-pops liquor store across the street. That is, if someone else hasn't taken it first.

The next two options will be either stealing/coercion, or trading. You'd have to barter for food if you didn't have any, and you'd likely be banding together with your neighbors and other people you know. This might not happen quickly within the span of two weeks, but would definitely quickly dispel the notion that green slips of paper are worth anything.

Myrmex
2009-12-17, 02:59 AM
Guns do still work, but they eventually run out of ammunition. You have to have a fairly high-functioning society to start mass-producing bullets without the use of an electricity- and automobile-enabled factory. (Gotta transport the raw materials to your workshop, ship them out to the soldiers afterwards, have enough leftover food to feed your armorers, have enough light to work by, enough fuel to heat the crucibles, etc).

Even something as relatively simple as a bullet requires several different kinds of materials to produce - not all of which can be easily found everywhere, especially if you're looking for smokeless powder instead of gunpowder.

That's why America landfills for future generations.


Remember guys, this is only after two weeks. The PCs will only see the beginnings of this.

The first thing that would probably happen once people realize all their stuff isn't working is look to their neighbors. Once they realize everyone's crap isn't working, then they'll panic, probably even riot.

This will most likely lead to looting and the like, and since no new shipments of food will be coming in, Costco is going to be empty after a couple of days. People aren't going to pay for anything with money anymore. Why should they? They could just loot it from mom-n-pops liquor store across the street. That is, if someone else hasn't taken it first.

The next two options will be either stealing/coercion, or trading. You'd have to barter for food if you didn't have any, and you'd likely be banding together with your neighbors and other people you know. This might not happen quickly within the span of two weeks, but would definitely quickly dispel the notion that green slips of paper are worth anything.

And that's before the waves of living dead begin eating friends & family.

I would guess that guns & bullets wouldn't start running low until YEARS after the end of the world. I'd guess most people would end up dead, so there'd be vast stockpiles of weapons, food, and ammo. Some would be left unguarded for refugees to stumble upon, others would end up with people protecting them. A local militia, a military base, a corporate headquarters, you know, the stuff you see in zombie movies.

cheezewizz2000
2009-12-17, 03:17 AM
I would guess that guns & bullets wouldn't start running low until YEARS after the end of the world. I'd guess most people would end up dead, so there'd be vast stockpiles of weapons, food, and ammo. Some would be left unguarded for refugees to stumble upon, others would end up with people protecting them. A local militia, a military base, a corporate headquarters, you know, the stuff you see in zombie movies.

That's given me some good ideas actually. Some encounters would be as simple as meeting a group of refugees on the road who tell the PCs that homeowner X has vast stockpiles of food an guns, and isn't letting anyone have any.

Later, after the PCs have taken their food and guns and realised there isn't as much as they thought, a small group of heavily armed wanderers will come along and claim that they have vast stockpiles of food an guns and that they should share.

Sebastian
2010-05-09, 06:47 PM
I'm not sure how much this is relevant but I want to signal this book

http://www.webscription.net/10.1125/Baen/0671578499/0671578499.htm

1632, "In the spring of 2000, a small West Virginia mining town is taken back in time—land, people, resources and all—to central Germany in the middle of the Thirty Years' War. " it is the story how this town and its citizens try to survive those dangerous times.

It is not exactly the same thing (and I haven't read it all yet) but to see how they try to make up for the absence of modern infrastructure could give you some ideas.

Roland St. Jude
2010-05-09, 07:38 PM
Thread necromancy.