Girard is right - here's why [SOD SPOILERS]

[Jan Mattys]

WARNING, WALL OF TEXT

The Order of the Scribble made an agreement because they individually only truster their own strenghts and didn't think much of the skills of their companions.

So, they decided to split up and defend the Gates with what they trusted the most: their own abilities.

Lirian trusted the combined forces of Nature, Dorukan only trusted his magic, Soon only trusted honor, Girard only trusted his ability in hiding, deceiving and misleading potential threats forever.

The very reason why they broke up led to the decision NOT TO INTERFERE. It was a wise decision if you ask me, because having people around concerned about the defenses of each Gate being insufficient would have been a major flaw. Once they realised they would never agree on the right way to defend the Gates, they HAD to split up. Staying together without full cooperation would have been bad: imagine Soon going on and on and on about how Dorukan's sigils were insufficient, or Dorukan showing how Girard's illusions could be dispelled, or Lirian arguing that it's against the laws of Nature to fill a hole in a mountain with different creatures, like Serini did.

Seriously, splitting up, becoming guardians, keeping the Gates secret (and, more importantly, agreeing to stay the hell away from each other forever) was the best choice.

Now think about it:

- Dorukan broke his promise. He kept in touch (pun intended) with Lirian. Dorukan went as far as planning an epic anti-scrying spell with a concept hole just to have the chance to see Lirian in the years to come.

- Lirian broke her promise too. She kept in touch with Dorukan, and finally managed to doom the world twice: once, because she revealed to Xykon that there were other Gates, and twice, because her strong bond with Dorukan (which should have been broken many years in the past) was the direct cause of Dorukan's death (he came out of his dungeon to retrieve her soul).

- Soon kept his word. He's a Paladin, you can expect him to keep his word, right? I think so, and honesly, I think Girard knows it too (if you think his mocking illusion is there just for him to have the last laugh, which could well be in character with a Chaotic Trickster). But then someone approaches the Gate, someone who speaks about Soon and Azure City. Impending Peril is the strongest candidate as a motive to approach another member of the Scribble, of course, but THEY ALL decided that the best way to keep the world safe was to part away. Why should this change now? And more importantly, why does Soon think that he can change a policy that was decided by all five members back in the day?

- Serini... well, we don't know much about Serini... but we know she kept a diary. BAD choice, when your highest duty in life is to keep things SECRET. But ok, I don't want to stretch things, so I'll just say that Serini is ok for now.

***

So, here we are. There's an italian song about a guy who sees Death staring at him, and is so scared that he runs away and rides all night and day and night again to go as far as possible from his Fate. When he finally stops in a City far away, he sees Death looking at him again. He falls on his knees and gives up about his impossible escape, he tells Death he's too tired, and ready to accept his Fate, even if has escaped it for two days.
But Death approaches him, and gently says that she was not about to kill him two days before. She was just shocked to see him there, so far away. because she knew that in two days time he had to come and meet his Fate here.
"I was worried that you could be late and not manage to be here today", Death says.

This is basically my point: Girard is strong in his belief that individual skills CAN defend the Gates. Yes, he's arrogant. But story-wise, he's smart. More often than not, the same messenger that tries to inform about impending Doom becomes the tool for Fate to intervene and unleash Doom in the first place (example: Kung Fu Panda - Tai Lung is freed by the same messenger sent to make sure he can't escape). And in a way, the OOTS is as much a potential thread for the security of the Gate as it is for its safety. They want to match Xykon, at the Gate's location... but what if they lose, then?

It's the kind of danger Girard doesn't want to deal with. He went his way, and he keeps true to the original oath he made. He doesn't care what's happening to the world around him, AS LONG AS HIS GATE IS SAFE AND HIDDEN.

Other members of the Order of the Scribble were far too mild in taking their Oath literally. Maybe if they had adopted the same stubborn determination in keeping their secrets, the World wouldn't have been in danger at all in the first place.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I thought it could be an interesting point of view, and worth discussing.

[Kish]

Girard is manifestly not right. He's making an assumption (that anyone mentioning Soon near the coordinates means Soon or "one of his fascist paladin lackeys" broke the oath) which is wrong, as in factually untainted by truth. He's addressing a message to someone who is dead and nowhere near where the message is being delivered. He's ranting about the evils of authority to a group of people of whom one falls in the mildest of the categories he names, that of "party leader." Girard manages to be wrong in so many different ways at once that I'm mystified by the number of people on this forum who have made posts about how awesome and right he is since the last strip.

[ChrisFortyTwo]

I agree with OP. From what we've seen, Girard's gate is the best defended, most difficult gate to find.

I personally think that spending more time trying to discover the gate is the wrong move for the Order.

I also don't think that Girard is going to be hanging around his gate. I mean, think about it, why would you create tons of super illusions, then sit around...better to keep tabs on it from afar (disguised as Haley's dad, of course :wink:).

EDIT:
The rant was a bad idea, though, and he could have done without it. Honestly, I think the fact that it exists is the worst decision he has made.

If it's a lie, that means that anyone with any sense will start looking from there, and find it. If true, then it's a clue that you should figure out who trusted who, and try to get the gate location from them (i.e. Serini).

[Porthos]

that I'm mystified by the number of people on this forum who have made posts about how awesome and right he is since the last strip.

Give the libertarian (small "L"), anti-authortiy bent of the some gamers, I'm not. :smalltongue:

Especially combined with the fact whenever anyone tells off the Sapphire Guard in this comic*, a portion of the fanbase will cheer. Even if the comment is wrongheaded or the messenger is being hypocritical.

* For good reason, of course - but this ain't the thread for that discussion :smallwink:.

[RichardAK]

I agree wholeheartedly with Kish. First of all, splitting up was a stupid idea for the Order of the Scribble. If we've seen anything so far, it's that none of them have been able to stop Xykon and Redcloak alone. Granted, Lirian came close, as did the Sapphire Guard, although even then it must be noted that Lirian only came close before Xykon became a lich, and the Sapphire Guard only came close by sacrificing almost its entire membership.

Furthermore, Girard's gate is not well defended at all. The Order of the Stick doesn't know where it is, because Girard lied to Soon. Xykon does know where it is, unless Girard also lied to Serini. And even then, it's not improbable that Xykon and Redcloak may be able to piece together the gate's actual location if Serini recorded the journey to the gate in her diary. Plus, we know from the Oracle that Xykon will reach Girard's gate. So now, instead of the good guys arriving first to warn Girard and help him fight Xykon, Girard will probably have to face Xykon alone. And I guarantee you he will lose.

So Girard, for all his clever sarcasm, is actually a great fool. And let's be blunt here: he was a fool primarily because of bigotry against Soon's religious beliefs. And don't forget: Soon would have been freed from his oath in the event of the fall of his gate, which is exactly what happened here.

[Jan Mattys]

I am enjoying the conversation and I want to write as little as possible in order to let it grow (and because I already wrote a lot in the first post :smallbiggrin:). But I just want to clarify that I'm not a cheering fan of Girard.
It's true he makes assumptions, and you can see that of all the four other members of the Order of the Scribble, I credited Soon for being the one most loyal of the original Oath. Girard's conclusions are entirely due to his opposite position in the alignment spectrum, and I try to see the problems involved in a neutral perspective.

Some things to consider:
Girard is not smart because he's laughing at the stick up the arse of Soon, Girard is smart because he lied LONG AGO, as soon as it was clear that defending each gate was a PERSONAL DUTY of every member, and not a Group thing to be discussed. From that very moment onwards, he started to cover his steps, and I bet he didn't just lie to Soon, but to everybody, no matter how well he could go along with them.

I'm not a Girard fan, and I'm not a Paladins basher. But I must reckon that IF every other member had gone so hardcore in protecting their own gate, (and the simple step of acknowledging that the primary sources of information leaks were the other members) then Xykon would have had a hell of a hard time in seizing the Gates.

This said, I still think Soon proved to be the best Guardian of the three we have seen. By far.

Just for clarity. :smallsmile:

[TheBlackShadow]

I'm with Jan Mattys on this one. If nothing else, we have to look at the results of Girards actions. And what are said results? His Gate is by far the hardest to find. Everybody is screwed right now, and we haven't even got to the proper defences yet (as far as we can tell). And lets face it, do we want the OotS to find the Gate? The longer it stays hidden, the better it is for everyone. They're better off concentrating on Xykon, and y'know, actually ending the threat he poses once and for all. Girard has, so far, proven the best at defending his Gate, and if he has to betray his comrades to do it, well, results are everything here.

And as for Girard's attitude to Soon and the Sapphire Guard, maybe Girard was being slightly offensive (though I personally think he's got an issue with religion in general rather than just the animalistic natures of the Southern Gods), but lets not forget that he's keeping the Gate out of the hands of people he considers zealots, bigots, and fascists. And militant ones. Ie, people like :miko:. So yeah.

[TengYt]

I think Girard has made a huge blunder here. The OOTS is probably the only organisation left in the world acting to protect the gates, and one of the few parties experienced enough to possibly pose something of a threat to Xykon. Xykon is prophesised to be near Girard's gate soon, and without the Order it may well fall.

[Kish]

I'm with Jan Mattys on this one. If nothing else, we have to look at the results of Girards actions. And what are said results? His Gate is by far the hardest to find. Everybody is screwed right now,
By everybody, you mean "the good guys," right?

"Xykon will be as stymied by not knowing where to go as Roy is" would be an assumption. "Xykon will go straight to Girard's Gate, either because Serini wrote down the right coordinates or because his epic magic leads him to it," also an assumption. Neither of these assumptions has yet been shown to be true, or false, by the comic.

"Xykon will somehow get to within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate," on the other hand, is not an assumption; thanks for reminding me, TengYt.

[TheSummoner]

Girard is manifestly not right. He's making an assumption (that anyone mentioning Soon near the coordinates means Soon or "one of his fascist paladin lackeys" broke the oath) which is wrong, as in factually untainted by truth. He's addressing a message to someone who is dead and nowhere near where the message is being delivered. He's ranting about the evils of authority to a group of people of whom one falls in the mildest of the categories he names, that of "party leader." Girard manages to be wrong in so many different ways at once that I'm mystified by the number of people on this forum who have made posts about how awesome and right he is since the last strip.

You're assuming that either Girard recorded that message recently or that the message is able to think for itself. Hell, just look at Girard in the message compared to him in the Diary and Crayons of Time mini-arc... only notable difference is he grew a beard. Look at how much Dorukan aged between the time the Order of the Scribble was active and now. Unless theres some explanation for why Girard still looks fairly young, its pretty safe to say that the message was recorded quite a while ago, when Soon was still alive, and prepared specifically incase Soon came calling (which, considering how it is triggered, makes it pretty likely that anyone who heard it was associated with Soon somehow).

Girard has had plenty of time to secure his gate, why not set up one giant "screw you" to a guy he hates on the off-chance that his once ally tries to take control of the gate that is rightfully Girard's to protect. That many years ago, Girard had no way of knowing whether Soon would actually do it or not, but he prepared for that possibility anyways... and took advantage of it to snark at Soon if he DID try anything.

The part about party leaders... Well, I could be wrong since I haven't ready any of the compilation books, but its always been my assumption that Soon was the leader of the Order of the Scribble. If thats right, then its just another way for him to twist the dagger in the wound if Soon DID try to take control of the gate.

Girard saw it as a possibility that Soon might try it... maybe not a very likely thing, but a possibility. Girard isn't "wrong," hes prepared for every situation he could imagine, including his own former teammates trying something. Hes awesome because hes prepared, and unless he told his other teammates the real location of his gate, he hasn't made any mistakes (atleast now any that we can see or predict at the time).


I agree wholeheartedly with Kish. First of all, splitting up was a stupid idea for the Order of the Scribble. If we've seen anything so far, it's that none of them have been able to stop Xykon and Redcloak alone. Granted, Lirian came close, as did the Sapphire Guard, although even then it must be noted that Lirian only came close before Xykon became a lich, and the Sapphire Guard only came close by sacrificing almost its entire membership.

They couldn't stand eachother. In-fighting would've been worse than taking their own separate paths... assuming they didn't just kill eachother (Dorukan and Girard were about to go at it with Soon afterall...)


Furthermore, Girard's gate is not well defended at all. The Order of the Stick doesn't know where it is, because Girard lied to Soon. Xykon does know where it is, unless Girard also lied to Serini. And even then, it's not improbable that Xykon and Redcloak may be able to piece together the gate's actual location if Serini recorded the journey to the gate in her diary. Plus, we know from the Oracle that Xykon will reach Girard's gate. So now, instead of the good guys arriving first to warn Girard and help him fight Xykon, Girard will probably have to face Xykon alone. And I guarantee you he will lose.

How do you know it isn't well defended... it could be buried beneath 50 feet of sand for all anyone knows yet. The biggest mistake Girard could've made at this point would have been lieing to Soon but telling the rest of the order of the Scribble where his gate really is. We don't know if hes made that mistake yet or not.

We know that Xykon will be within 1000 feet, not that he will find it. He could stumble over it without ever realizing it and spend eternity wandering a wasteland. This won't happen (would make for a boring plot and we know the Giant is a better writer than that), but its a possibility. Even if Xykon does get to the gate, that doesn't automatically make it a failure on Girard's part. Furthermore, if you guarantee that Girard would lose to Xykon, what makes you think the Order would do any better against him? Roy beat him once because Xykon wanted to make a show of it and have the MitD eat them... remember what happened next time Roy and Xykon went 1 on 1? During the Azure City battle, it was said that Roy and V were the only two that could even scratch Xykon (may have changed since then with Haley's new bow and such, but you get the point...)


So Girard, for all his clever sarcasm, is actually a great fool. And let's be blunt here: he was a fool primarily because of bigotry against Soon's religious beliefs. And don't forget: Soon would have been freed from his oath in the event of the fall of his gate, which is exactly what happened here.

Hes a fool because he mocked a pantheon of gods he likely doesn't even worship? I don't follow.

[TheBlackShadow]

If Xykon had Epic magic that could lead him straight to the Gate, then he wouldn't need Serini's diary, and we now know that the information in Serini's diary is far from reliable. Even if Serini did manage to get the right coordinates (and thats a big "if"), he's still got the Epic Illusions to fall back on, and you could even say then that it is Serini's fault that the Gate was found. And even so, at this rate its just as likely that Xykon will find the Gate simply by having the Order lead him straight to it, and even deactivate the defence systems for him.

However you look at it, Xykon finding the Gate would be because of the actions of someone OTHER than Girard, who has done his level best to hide and defend it. The only thing you could possibly bring him down on is a lack of cooperativeness, and even this you could say would compromise the security of the Gate.

Ah, TheSummoner posted while I was writing. All good points there, as far as I can see.

[Kish]

You're assuming that either Girard recorded that message recently or that the message is able to think for itself.

Just the opposite. Most likely he recorded the message a very long time ago, and obviously the message can't think for itself. Those are side issues to the flat statement "Girard is right."

I am observing a very long rant which Roy and the rest of the Order of the Stick did nothing to earn.

You're right, he's not "wrong." The quotes don't belong there. He's wrong. Why he recorded the message is another matter; you're apparently a lot more sympathetic to his reasons than me. But for it to be right, it would need to be playing to Soon, or one of his fascist paladin lackeys, there to seize Girard's gate.

That's not the case.

So it's wrong.

If I say, "The earth is flat," getting into the details of why I think that may interest you, but there is no getting around the simple fact that the statement. Is. Wrong. There is no single statement that is the focus of Girard's entire rant (though if Roy kneels and prays to a petting zoo, it's news to me...), but the entire premise he's going on is wrong. There is room to argue that Girard is justified--perhaps--but that he's got more than a nodding acquaintance with the facts the illusion of him spent most of the latest strip spouting off about? No way.

[BadAndyMk3]

I agree with Kish.
The guy was wrong.

[TheSummoner]

So hes wrong for being prepared? Would it have been better if he hadn't defended the gate against Soon at all? The Order got those coordinates from the Sapphire Guard, indirectly, they are tied to Shojo.

Would you have been able to predict that a spell triggered to go off when several words related to someone you hate were mentioned, that they would be triggered over 50 years later by a group of adventurers with minimal connection to the person its intended for? Maybe Girard did go a bit overboard, but more likely than not, for that spell to trigger, the person triggering it would have to be connected to Soon. Girard must've thought Soon deserved that rant otherwise he wouldn't have gone through the trouble to prepare it.

Does that mean the Order deserves whats happening to them? No, but it being someone in their position triggering the spell was incredibly unlikely.

[TheBlackShadow]

Hang on now, are we talking about whether Girard was justified in his actions in defence of the Gate (in which case he has my wholehearted support), or whether he was justified in indulging in his big rant (in which case he probably isn't justified, but that doesn't change the fact that it was funny as hell :smallbiggrin:)?

[Kish]

So hes wrong for being prepared?

:smallconfused: This is seeming increasingly pointless. What do you think the word "wrong" means? Do you think Roy is Soon? Do you think anyone in the Order kneels to pray to anything that could be called, however snidely, a petting zoo?


Would it have been better if he hadn't defended the gate against Soon at all?

Under the circumstances, I am mystified that you speak as though the obvious answer to that question is "no." Soon did not go after Girard's gate. Soon, as far as we know, never even considered going near Girard's gate, and neither did any of the Sapphire Guard. Whether he would theoretically have been correct had Soon shown up to seize his gate is begging the question (a fallacy often misquoted, which actually means to use the thing one is trying to prove as evidence for itself). There is such a thing as reality, and it's against Girard. He is as wrong as he would be if his message said, "Cold is better for cooking food than heat! Humans don't need light to see! Xykon is Lawful Good!"


Would you have been able to predict that a spell triggered to go off when several words related to someone you hate were mentioned, that they would be triggered over 50 years later by a group of adventurers with minimal connection to the person its intended for?

I don't get what you're not getting. Girard's estimate of Soon's character was not accurate. It's not up for voting; he assumed Soon would do something Soon lived and died without doing, without, as far as we can see, ever thinking about doing. If I recorded a message and left it somewhere where I was certain one particular person would trigger it, I would look like a complete idiot if someone else triggered it and the person I had been so certain would trigger it had never even thought of coming anywhere near it; and I would not have a better excuse for looking like a complete idiot than "I acted like a complete idiot." You speak as though his only two options were "tailor the message to the Order of the Stick, somehow knowing it will be there" or, "tailor the message to Soon, which we shouldn't call 'wrong' because he couldn't realistically have been expected to tailor the message to the Order."


Does that mean the Order deserves whats happening to them? No, but it being someone in their position triggering the spell was incredibly unlikely.
It not being Soon or "one of his fascist paladin lackeys" triggering the spell is the fact. Girard assumed it was incredibly unlikely that his rant would fall on the wrong ears--or, more likely, he figured it was mostly unlikely (wrongly) and would, if he knew what happened, shrug and say, "Okay, I was wrong." For some reason, you're attributing an amazing degree of insight to a character who is batting 0:1000.

And we know that he's wrong to think "don't give Soon the real coordinates" will work to defend the gate, because Xykon will be within a thousand feet of Girard's Gate. So, even ignoring the rant of wrongness (for this paragraph only :smalltongue:), he'd still be batting 0:1000.

[Jan Mattys]

Just the opposite. Most likely he recorded the message a very long time ago, and obviously the message can't think for itself. Those are side issues to the flat statement "Girard is right."

I am observing a very long rant which Roy and the rest of the Order of the Stick did nothing to earn.

You're right, he's not "wrong." The quotes don't belong there. He's wrong. Why he recorded the message is another matter; you're apparently a lot more sympathetic to his reasons than me. But for it to be right, it would need to be playing to Soon, or one of his fascist paladin lackeys, there to seize Girard's gate.

That's not the case.

So it's wrong.

If I say, "The earth is flat," getting into the details of why I think that may interest you, but there is no getting around the simple fact that the statement. Is. Wrong. There is no single statement that is the focus of Girard's entire rant (though if Roy kneels and prays to a petting zoo, it's news to me...), but the entire premise he's going on is wrong. There is room to argue that Girard is justified--perhaps--but that he's got more than a nodding acquaintance with the facts the illusion of him spent most of the latest strip spouting off about? No way.

Girard was right in assuming even his companions could be potential danger to his gate. And simply recorded the message for Soon because he was probably the companion he liked the less.

His other companions didn't think their comrades could be potential danger, and with the exception of Soon, who I agree kept his vow, all others are directly reponsible for things going downhill one way or the other EXACTLY because they didn't guard themselves from their friends or their past relationship between them.

[hamishspence]

so, the statement wasn't "Girard's message was right" but:

"Girard's decision to provide false coordinates was right"?

If that was the intent- it seems possible, but we don't know yet how it will turn out.

[TheBlackShadow]

so, the statement wasn't @Girard's message was right" but:

"Girard's decision to provide false coordinates was right"?

If that was the intent- it seems possible, but we don't know yet how it will turn out.

Man, I thought it was the other way around. I'm so confused I don't know what we're arguing about any more :smallamused:.

[Gitman00]

:smallconfused: This is seeming increasingly pointless. What do you think the word "wrong" means? Do you think Roy is Soon? Do you think anyone in the Order kneels to pray to anything that could be called, however snidely, a petting zoo?

*snip*

I think we need to define our terms here. Kish is defining the term "wrong" to mean "incorrect," by which she means that Girard was incorrect in his assumption that Soon would be the one to come looking for the gate. This is most certainly true, and I think TheSummoner would agree.

TheSummoner uses "wrong" to mean, "morally wrong," or "foolish," by which he means (when he says Girard was not wrong) that Girard was wise in preparing for the eventuality that Soon and his paladins might attempt to take over or otherwise compromise his gate. I happen to think that his logic is sound, even if it turned out not to be the case. Girard thought the best way to defend the gate was to conceal its location from everyone, including Soon and the rest of the Order of the Scribble.

I mentioned in another thread that his assumption that Soon would be the one to find this message makes sense; Dorukan or Lirian could have contacted him magically if they needed to find him, and Serini likely would have contacted one of them first. Only Soon would actually come out to the gate itself. The message itself is clearly (if incorrectly) based on that assumption. Now Girard's message was petty and vindictive, no doubt. But it also adds another layer of deception (even we readers, with metagame knowledge, can't figure out if it's legit), and fits his personality shown in the Scribble strips, which portrays him as sarcastic and resentful towards Soon.

Finally, I don't think we've seen the end of Girard's message, so I think it's wise to hold off judgment until we hear ALL he has to say.

[hamishspence]

That was my conclusion as well.

[Kish]

I would venture that arguing anything based on the effectiveness of Girard's methods at this point is decidedly premature.

Start of Darkness spoilers:

Lirian let Xykon know that there were more Gates because she mentioned them, not because she was secretly visiting Dorukan. Do we have any reason to presume Girard wouldn't mention the existence of other Gates if he was fighting Xykon? I don't see any.

Dorukan came out to fight Xykon because Xykon had Lirian's soul imprisoned. Maybe that wouldn't have happened if he hadn't seen Lirian since they parted. Very likely Girard wouldn't have come out for the imprisoned soul of any of his former teammates. That's not about lack of contact, it's about being ruthless.

Soon kept the oath; Shojo did not. Girard may be the only member of the Order of the Scribble whose oath wasn't broken, by himself or anyone else; or he may have told a dozen or a hundred people we don't know about yet. Either way. Xykon will get within a thousand feet of Girard's gate, and (considering we haven't been to Kraagor's Gate yet), Girard's Gate will likely wind up being destroyed (the latter is speculative).

Right now, Girard looks like a chump for ranting wrongheadedly. He doesn't seem particularly devoted to the oath, though he does seem particularly devoted to deception as a philosophy, as devoted as Soon, Dorukan, or Lirian were to their declared philosophies.

[Optimystik]

Here's my take: unless the Western Continent is only 1000 feet wide, the Oracle knows where the Gate is, or at least knew when Roy asked his question. How else could he answer Roy's question?

That doesn't necessarily mean Xykon himself will find the Gate, but it does mean the gate can be found. Which means that if Girard was false as a means of defense, that he's not as infallible as he'd like Soon to think.

Which only leaves the possibility of him endangering the world to be a ****. It should be obvious what I think of that one.

[Gitman00]

Here's my take: unless the Western Continent is only 1000 feet wide, the Oracle knows where the Gate is, or at least knew when Roy asked his question. How else could he answer Roy's question?

That doesn't necessarily mean Xykon himself will find the Gate, but it does mean the gate can be found. Which means that if Girard was false as a means of defense, that he's not as infallible as he'd like Soon to think.

Which only leaves the possibility of him endangering the world to be a ****. It should be obvious what I think of that one.

The Oracle doesn't know where it is; he was given an answer to a specific question by his god. The gods know where it is, but from what we've seen they don't tend to interfere directly.

[Porthos]

The Oracle doesn't know where it is; he was given an answer to a specific question by his god Rich.

There. Fixed that For You. :smalltongue:

Otherwise we are back to the thorny question of "If Tiamat knew Familicide was coming, why didn't she do something to stop it."

And, really, who wants to tread down that road again? :smallamused:

[Optimystik]

The Oracle doesn't know where it is; he was given an answer to a specific question by his god. The gods know where it is, but from what we've seen they don't tend to interfere directly.

That's a fair interpretation, but one of the gods is actively interested in helping Team Evil find the gates; Redcloak has several ways of communicating with him.

Commune: "Is the Gate within X miles of this spot?"
The DO: "Y miles north, ask again."

[Wou]

my 2 cents:
Girard believed that even his allies couldn't be trusted with gate coordinates. As it turned out he was right, because two parties managed to get them independently. Maybe he could just say “The gate is not here, I lied to protect it better, goodbye” instead of long “F**k you Soon” rant, but abusing someone verbally from time to time doesn’t make one evil bastard or dumbass, Roy’s the best example.


I don't think DO knows where other gates are, if he did team evil wouldn't need the diary to find previous ones.

[Optimystik]

my 2 cents:
Girard believed that even his allies couldn't be trusted with gate coordinates. As it turned out he was right, because two parties managed to get them independently. Maybe he could just say “The gate is not here, I lied to protect it better, goodbye” instead of long “F**k you Soon” rant, but abusing someone verbally from time to time doesn’t make one evil bastard or dumbass, Roy’s the best example.

I'm glad you mentioned Roy, because he is indeed a great example - long, ranty tirades against someone you don't like just make you sink to their level. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html) That's a lesson Girard has yet to learn, and one Roy already has.

[factotum]

my 2 cents:
Girard believed that even his allies couldn't be trusted with gate coordinates. As it turned out he was right, because two parties managed to get them independently.

We don't actually know that Xykon has the coordinates. He has Serini's diary, which presumably says they were on the Western Continent when they found the rift that became Girard's Gate, but we don't know how exact the location is.

As for Roy and the Order "getting" the coordinates--they were given them in order to try and stop the end of the world. I'd argue that's a good enough reason for them to have them, whatever Girard might think.

[warrl]

Considering that the spell was activated by a four-keywords-out-of-five match (nobody said "gate"), it's entirely plausible that there was a different set of keywords that would have brought forth an illusion saying "It's 85% likely that you are Dorukan, or were sent by him..." and a different rant.

[Nilan8888]

I would say Girard is definately in the right if his desire is to keep the Gate out of the hands of others, and that he has definately put forward the best plan.

However, this is not to say the character is not also a douche. Sometimes the most frusterating jerks are the ones who just happen to be right about the big things.

[Shale]

Roy said "gate" off-panel, confirmed by the Giant here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7472840&postcount=16).

[Moff Chumley]

Hey, I'd just like to offer an observation: from what he knew at the time, Girard was absolutely right. Consider the following:
1) He hated Soon and everything he stood for. The feeling, as far as we know, was mutual. It's been established that each member of the OotScribble thought they knew the best way to defend the gates. If Soon thought that Girard would let the gate fall, of COURSE he would interfere.
2) The sheer impossibility of someone triggering the rant. A tiny, invisible box in the middle of the world's largest desert requiring four random words to be spoken near it? Of course he couldn't have been sure no one would trigger it, but would YOU bet on those odds?

[Tyndmyr]

It was a rather reasonable precaution. Is the rant necessary? I don't know. Could be part of some misdirection, could be genuine. Could be both.

Regardless, he does appear to have one of the better guarded gates. After all, it hasn't fallen yet. Likewise, Soons gate was pretty clearly guarded better than Dokurans. The easy ones fall first. In a world of magic, something that should never be used by anyone....yeah, hiding that away is a good tactic. Especially when all the others favored visible, static defences.

After all, anyone that can overcome the static defences at the other gates could probably also overcome any similar method tried at Girards. Deception and misdirection at least try a different approach.

[Acero]

EDIT:
The rant was a bad idea, though, and he could have done without it.

have you ever watched Scrubs?

Dr. Cox goes on rants all the time. why? because he thinks they're funny. (they are)

Girard wants the final laugh. there has to be something to laugh at first

[Paseo H]

Being anti-authority is right. Lawful is Evil. They do not care about the individual, they only care about the whole.

[Kish]

I would say that viewpoint is absolutely required for what's in the comic to point to Girard being right.

Girard is certainly anti-authority; he said so himself, interspersed with the "you are Soon and your religion is dumb" parts.

[Paseo H]

I would say that viewpoint is absolutely required for what's in the comic to point to Girard being right.

Girard is certainly anti-authority; he said so himself, interspersed with the "you are Soon and your religion is dumb" parts.

I was pleasantly surprised that The Giant could express the viewpoint that I share, through Girard's voice, so eloquently and convincingly. He didn't make it sound like a strawman. I must say, I am impressed with The Giant today.

Of course, as long as lawful types are here to dare to try to shout it down, I must remain as well.

[Kish]

I was pleasantly surprised that The Giant could express the viewpoint that I share, through Girard's voice, so eloquently and convincingly. He didn't make it sound like a strawman. I must say, I am impressed with The Giant today.

Of course, as long as lawful types are here to dare to try to shout it down, I must remain as well.
Someone is WRONG on the Internet (http://xkcd.com/386/) ?

Really, I can relate to the feeling, but sooner or later, you realize you have to let it go. Or you go completely mad from trying to correct all the WRONG people.

...What do you mean, which did I do?

[JonahFalcon]

The old man thought hiding in the cellar was the best idea in Night of the Living Dead, too.

It doesn't work that way.

[Moff Chumley]

*shuffles note cards*

Today on GitP: Cognitive Dissonance, and why Kish doesn't have any.

[neriana]

Being anti-authority is right. Lawful is Evil. They do not care about the individual, they only care about the whole.

Really? Lawful people are always and forever evil? And all in exactly the same way, a way which you know better than them? You think lawful people are a homogeneous group with no differentiation in attitudes, depending on context, other moral factors, how they were raised, their own particular life experiences? My, what a... lawful attitude that is.

[Moff Chumley]

Agreed. Is Roy evil? Is Hinjo evil? Is Lien evil*?
Btw, if your answer to any of these is 'yes', we're done, m'kay?


*Trick question. Lien is too hawt to be evil. :smallcool::smallwink:

EDIT: I wasn't really paying attention and I can't be bothered to go back and read this conversation. If your statement wasn't meant to be taken at face value, which it probably wasn't, I apologize.

[tribble]

Really? Lawful people are always and forever evil? And all in exactly the same way, a way which you know better than them? You think lawful people are a homogeneous group with no differentiation in attitudes, depending on context, other moral factors, how they were raised, their own particular life experiences? My, what a... lawful attitude that is.

cookies for neriana. Tell me, is it evil for one man to risk his own life to save the lives of several others? if so, firefighters are evil. is it evil for one or several men to put their lives on the line to rescue a group of people? then police and SWAT who risk themselves in hostage situations are evil. I really don't understand the logic that results in group>iduvidual=evil. ya know what we call people who always put their induvidual needs before that of a group? a sociopath.

[spargel]

I seriously fail to see how keeping the gates separate and not interfering was a good idea.

[Conuly]

I seriously fail to see how keeping the gates separate and not interfering was a good idea.

The alternative was to be at each other's throats and argue so much that some or all of them might have been seriously harmed or killed in the ensuing scuffles. It's not that separating the gates was a good idea as that it was the ONLY idea.

[doliest]

Technically the worst defended was Lirian's gate; it only took a sizable, but likely not enormous goblin force and three decently high level evil characters to destroy it. Not a single protection on it could be considered epic except maybe that virus.

[Alex Warlorn]

Girard's METHOD to defending his gate has certainly proven the most logical and practical seen thus far. I'll grant him that.

But his 'nya nya nya!' message kinda ROYALLY SCREWED OVER THE WHOLE BLOODY POINT OF IT! You don't lead someone on a wild goose case then leave a message saying that it IS a wild goose chase! Because he couldn't resist giving the middle finger to someone who dedication to code of conduct and believing in things greater than one's self, things Girard loathed.

And Redcloak's loathing of paladins comes from the loss of his loved ones. Girard's loathing comes from likely being told they had to give the enemy a chance to surrender and not simply kill them in their sleep. Which is fully within the philosophy of a chaotic neutral person. (And as Girard himself in his actions point out, being Chaotic Neutral does not mean you can't be pragmatic.)

Girard's idea was good, but he ruined it because he HAD to get the last word in with Soon... who never even HEARD his bloody message nor any of his paladins. So the joke's on him.

[doliest]

....You do realize that if he lied to Serina and Xykon's going where the Order is, then he hasn't screwed up right? The message activates on command via a few key words that have to be spoken; and that's assuming that this message resets; which seems like a rather idiotic idea considering that the people who hear it will likely go right back to using those words making the message a minor annoyance instead of a disheartening rant.

[Paseo H]

cookies for neriana. Tell me, is it evil for one man to risk his own life to save the lives of several others? if so, firefighters are evil. is it evil for one or several men to put their lives on the line to rescue a group of people? then police and SWAT who risk themselves in hostage situations are evil. I really don't understand the logic that results in group>iduvidual=evil. ya know what we call people who always put their induvidual needs before that of a group? a sociopath.

I'd love to argue the point, but I think we are simply an Unstoppable Force and an Immovable Object.

After all, with that rousing tribute to heroic men such as police and firemen, how can you bring yourself to consider my point, since to do so would, in your eyes, diminish them?

It's fine, really. You have all of society on your side. Strength in numbers is all you need, right? Good for you.

[doliest]

I'd love to argue the point, but I think we are simply an Unstoppable Force and an Immovable Object.

After all, with that rousing tribute to heroic men such as police and firemen, how can you bring yourself to consider my point, since to do so would, in your eyes, diminish them?

It's fine, really. You have all of society on your side. Strength in numbers is all you need, right? Good for you.

......Okay you know what screw it; this joke is one line away from being said by everyone.
.
.
.
"Where's your Christmas Spirit?":smallwink:

[Orzel]

He's right that it was the best plan.
He's wrong that it would have worked.

By trusting no one but yourself to guard a gate, you end up trusting that everyone else doesn't screw up.


It's like played in co-op game designed to played with multiple people, and doing almost everything yourself because you only trust the others with a few tasks.

"All you have to do is cover me and not tigger the prozimity mines..."
"All you have to do is heal me..."
"All you have to is handle the minions..."

"...I do everything else."

[Jade_Tarem]

I just take exception to the statement that Girards gate is the "best defended" - we don't even know how well defended Kraagor's gate is, Soon's gate would have killed Xykon if Miko hadn't interfered, and Dorukan's gate DID kill Xykon, lest we forget (even if he did get better). I hardly think that a lie and a taunting message measure up to an army of Deathless Paladins and their epic leader, or a ward that vaporizes Epic Level Liches on contact.

[Turkish Delight]

I'm not sure how it's possible to say a man is right when the evidence that he just screwed up royally is right before your eyes.

His rant was directed at Soon and his Paladins. Are the OotS either of those things? Nope.

His rant was designed because he expected Soon would come out of some Fascist desire to control all the gates. Very clearly, that isn't why the OotS has come, and Girard apparently didn't take into account the possibility someone might start picking off the gates one by one and one of the other Scribble members might feel the need to warn him about it.

He miscalculated badly and shot himself in the foot.

[Shatteredtower]

So Girard was mistaken about Soon sending someone. That matters less than the legitimate reasons he has to mistrust Soon, or the fact that Soon bears responsibility for the breach by leaving coordinates in Shojo's hands.

Had Miko been right about Shojo and Girard more trusting of the man that sacrificed Kraagor, things would be pretty dire right now.

[SaintRidley]

I'm not sure how it's possible to say a man is right when the evidence that he just screwed up royally is right before your eyes.

His rant was directed at Soon and his Paladins. Are the OotS either of those things? Nope.

His rant was designed because he expected Soon would come out of some Fascist desire to control all the gates. Very clearly, that isn't why the OotS has come, and Girard apparently didn't take into account the possibility someone might start picking off the gates one by one and one of the other Scribble members might feel the need to warn him about it.

He miscalculated badly and shot himself in the foot.

He only screwed up on the secrecy of he didn't lie to the rest of the party. And if he didn't lie to the rest of the party he was a complete moron who doesn't understand how secrecy works.

If he lied to the rest of the part I see no reason that he screwed up.

[TheSummoner]

Eh, he was claiming Girard made a major mistake by being unable to forsee that a group of random adventurers with no direct association with Soon would show up in the precise coordinates that Girard gave Soon and say "Soon" "Sapphire Guard" "Girard" and apparently "Gate" in that exact location over 50 years after preparing the spell.

Kinda a bull**** claim if you ask me.

[Shatteredtower]

I haven't read the main thread, just this one, but a thought occurs to me. Why would Soon need Girard to tell him where this gate was? He'd been here before! Are we supposed to believe Girard had planned this deception before they built the gates?

More to the point of the thread, why should Girard have trusted the man responsible for so many deaths, all to keep a secret most of them would never have learned?

[TheSummoner]

Soon may have been there, but its a bit hard to find a place in a vast, featureless wasteland. Without proper coordinates, it would be impossible to find without a good deal of luck.

[Orzel]

I haven't read the main thread, just this one, but a thought occurs to me. Why would Soon need Girard to tell him where this gate was? He'd been here before! Are we supposed to believe Girard had planned this deception before they built the gates?

More to the point of the thread, why should Girard have trusted the man responsible for so many deaths, all to keep a secret most of them would never have learned?


Girard is the one who made all the maps. He's the only one who really knew where they are.

[Jagos]

Soon may have been there, but its a bit hard to find a place in a vast, featureless wasteland. Without proper coordinates, it would be impossible to find without a good deal of luck.

Pfft. The OotS has that in spades. They have lived this far correct? ;)

[Zeful]

I haven't read the main thread, just this one, but a thought occurs to me. Why would Soon need Girard to tell him where this gate was? He'd been here before! Are we supposed to believe Girard had planned this deception before they built the gates?

More to the point of the thread, why should Girard have trusted the man responsible for so many deaths, all to keep a secret most of them would never have learned?

That's not how it works. For small scale (find the tree shaped like a naked lady and go over the next hill) it would be exactly like you said, Soon would be able to, by himself, walk right up to the gate. However, deserts constantly shift so trying to rely on that method (find a memorable landmark and judge from there) would only work for about a month. Further, it's a desert, the nearest landmark might be miles away, making this method of locating something impossible. You would need coordinates to find the area to begin looking for the landmarks to find what your looking for.

This would all be before Girard made the gate and the surrounding area look identical to the surrounding thousands of miles of desert. And Girard, being, by his own admission, the group's cartographer, he's the only one qualified to give coordinates for the gates, and all he has to do is point to a spot on the map and say "It's here" and no one can actually prove him wrong without going there (all sense motive would give is a gut feeling about lying), and trying to breach his illusions, which would only prove him right about the nature of power.

So Soon could not have only been there, but he also have been familiar enough to teleport there had he the levels to do it, and he wouldn't know if the place given to him by Girard is the place he teleported to.

[LuisDantas]

There is probably more to this than we have seen so far.

But taking things at face value right now, I must say that Girard is looking very much like an arrogant fool at this point; by placing all his bets on whatever defenses he himself set up and doing his best to drive way possible allies that even he admits to have at best a 90% guess about, he is toying with the future of the world.

Ironically enough, the Azure City Paladins (who apparently are not exempt from the vow despite the destruction of their own Gate) are sharing his mistake, which is to be too literal, stubborn and context-oblivious about the decision to stay away from the remaining Gates.

[Zevox]

Well, this has turned into quite a long thread already. Since I see some discussion of what Girard was right or wrong about going on by the time I got tired of reading increasing long posts on the first page, here's my thoughts on that:

Girard was wrong insofar as his guess that Soon or his Paladins would one day attempt to take over the defense of all the gates turned out to be incorrect. This is undeniable fact.

Was he wrong to plan for that possibility? I don't think so. I think the OP is right that the Order of the Scribble's original plan to split up, defend the gates in their own ways, and never communicate with each other again was the best one. Think about it - why does anyone know where the gates are to seek them out now? Because of Serini's diary for the villains, and because Shojo chose to let the Order in on Soon's secrets for the heroes. Had Serini not recorded the gates' locations, Xykon and Redcloak would be no threat to the gates, or at least would have one hell of a time locating any of them. In addition, there was always the possibility that, since Soon was creating an entire order of Paladins who would know about the gates, that even if he did not renege on his promise, one of his successors would. And let's not forget, Shojo ultimately did, and to a certain degree for reasons similar to what Girard anticipated - he did believe the greater good could be served by checking up on the other gates. Who is to say that, had things gone as he had originally intended and the Order had reported back to him after locating each of the other gates, he wouldn't also have attempted to reinforce those gates' defenses with something of his own? In which case, would that functionally be any different from Soon deciding to take over the defense of all of the gates? Not by much, I'd say.

Was he wrong to assume that anyone near the location he gave Soon talking about Soon, the gates, the Sapphire Guard, and himself was likely Soon or an associate of his come seeking his gate? No. The Order, though not Soon's Paladins, did get their information from Shojo, Soon's successor, and had Shojo not turned out to be a chaotic character willing to break Soon's oath, no one but the Sapphire Guard would ever have been where they are, talking about the things they were talking about. And, since they are working with the Sapphire Guard and were originally employed in this whole thing by Shojo, the Order are associates of the Guard. And they are seeking Girard's gate. So he was quite right about that.

Now, I would certainly argue that, assuming he created some potent defenses of some sort at the gate's location itself the way the others did, Girard defended his gate better than the others by also keeping it's location a total secret this way. But that assumes he also deceived Serini, Dorukon, and Lirian about the location, which will be put to the test when we see whether Xykon and Redcloak's information from Serini's diary was accurate. If he didn't deceive them, that was a big mistake, as it leaves a gaping hole in that defense. If he did, my statement that I believe he defended his gate best would stand. (I would also wonder if, perhaps, he recorded milder statements to the others should they come seeking his gate's location, explaining why he deceived them. But we'll probably never learn that.)

Zevox

[LuisDantas]

Unless Girard is somehow such an epic illusionist that he knows how to consistently block scrying attempts from the likes of Tiamat's Oracle and the Dark One, I'm afraid that his choice of defense may be a particularly vulnerable one.

[Zevox]

Unless Girard is somehow such an epic illusionist that he knows how to consistently block scrying attempts from the likes of Tiamat's Oracle and the Dark One, I'm afraid that his choice of defense may be a particularly vulnerable one.
And how, exactly, does any mortal prepare defenses that cannot be pierced by a god? As far as I'm aware, they don't. If a god is directly helping someone overcome your defenses, no matter what they are, you're pretty much screwed.

Zevox

[TheSummoner]

Why would a god want to assist someone whose goal is to blackmail the gods anyways?

[Zevox]

Why would a god want to assist someone whose goal is to blackmail the gods anyways?
The Dark One is a god whose goal is to blackmail the gods. So there's that.

And one would hope Tiamat wouldn't grant her Oracle knowledge of the gate's location if the one asking for it intended what Xykon or Redcloak intend, but then again she did allow him to tell the ABD V's location even though that lead to the genocide of a quarter of the Black Dragons on the planet. Which means either she's not very selective about answering his questions, or not very careful to check what the outcome of giving out information is, or the OotS exists in a world with a fixed, unchangeable sort of fate. In any case, not a terribly resounding endorsement of her ability to withhold that information should someone like Xykon ask her Oracle for it.

Zevox

[TheSummoner]

You make a good point bringing up the ABD... Its quite possible Tiamat doesn't know/doesn't care about the outcomes of the oracle's prophecies and just answers the questions that get asked... Personally, I'd like to hope that Tiamat would have some knowledge of Xykon and Redcloak and their eventual goal (err... Redcloak's eventual goal) and would be smart enough to not help them out (in the case of the ABD, it could be explained in that the ABD's goal, revenge against V, caused no harm to dragons in itself, but that V's reaction, something Tiamat had been prepared for, did...) but theres really not enough evidence to know either way...

[JonahFalcon]

I'm trying to figure out how it would be a GOOD thing to have no allies.

[JonahFalcon]

By the way, I think had Soon really wanted to contact Girard, he would have contacted him.

It could be that Girard had agreed upon a way to communicate - and that had Soon marched to the spot without letting Girard know would have been a bad sign. Girardi would have probably had greeted Soon at the desert spot himself had Soon let him know he was coming.

[factotum]

Ironically enough, the Azure City Paladins (who apparently are not exempt from the vow despite the destruction of their own Gate) are sharing his mistake, which is to be too literal, stubborn and context-oblivious about the decision to stay away from the remaining Gates.

Er, what makes you say that? We know that O-Chul and Lien are both off checking out Kraagor's gate, and last time I checked, they're both paladins.

Fact is, we know for certain of only four paladins who survived the Azure City battle: O-Chul, Lien, Hinjo and whatsisname with the moustache who's now leading the Resistance. That means that 50% of the remaining Sapphire Guard are "exempt from the vow" in your terminology.

[salinan]

Ask any expert on security, and I'll bet that they'd say that securing something by hiding it is not real security. It may take a while, but anything that's hidden will eventually be found - and if there's no other security, once it's found, that's pretty much it.

Girard may be an epic level illusionist, but no matter how good his illusions are there will still be ways for people to get through them. People have already mentioned that the Gods know - there may well be other ways.

Personally (unpopular as this opinion seems to be,) I'd regard Girard's gate as the worst defended, for the reasons above, assuming it's only defended by illusions.

[Sewblon]

Even if Girard somehow concealed all evidence of his gates location, Xykon has Serini's diary and all the time in the world to look for it, so all he really accomplished is causing The Order to lose their lead, assuming he is not bluffing.

[Zevox]

Even if Girard somehow concealed all evidence of his gates location, Xykon has Serini's diary and all the time in the world to look for it, so all he really accomplished is causing The Order to lose their lead, assuming he is not bluffing.
This assumes that Serini's diary has the correct location in it. Which it may very well not, if Girard went all the way and deceived her as well as Soon. If he didn't, then that was indeed a mistake on his part. But it's too soon to assume one way or the other.

Zevox

[Connington]

....You do realize that if he lied to Serina and Xykon's going where the Order is, then he hasn't screwed up right?

No, he's most definitely screwed up. We know for a fact that Xykon will get within 1,000 feet of Girard's gate. So maybe he told his halfling friend, or maybe Xykon guesses it's location from the journal, or uses epic level spell-casting, but he'll find it. And Girard, assuming his defenses to be impenetrable, so much so that he actively screws over the cavalry come to save the day.

Leaving aside the fact that his assessments of Soon's character was wrong in the sense that Soon didn't do what Girard feared he would, it was also a laughably misguided move in a world with genuine high-level Big Bads, that operates according to narrative casualty.

Finally, why does everyone act like saying Soon, Gate, Sapphire Guard, and Girard are practically admitting to being one of the boy in blue's facist lackeys? Two of those terms are highly likely to be used by anyone searching for the Gate, and the other two only indicate a passing familiarity with Soon. He could at least have gone to the bother of using Southern and Sapphire Guard specific terms.

[Sewblon]

This assumes that Serini's diary has the correct location in it. Which it may very well not, if Girard went all the way and deceived her as well as Soon. If he didn't, then that was indeed a mistake on his part. But it's too soon to assume one way or the other.

Zevox I am not assuming that Serini new the correct location, her diary is still the only place thing we know of liable to contain any kind of clue that would reveal the true location of Girard's gate, since they traveled together for so long, and Xykon doesn't age so if no one has the foggiest idea where the gate is at all, the ball is still in his court.

[Jan Mattys]

I am not assuming that Serini new the correct location, her diary is still the only place thing we know of liable to contain any kind of clue that would reveal the true location of Girard's gate, since they traveled together for so long, and Xykon doesn't age so if no one has the foggiest idea where the gate is at all, the ball is still in his court.

Well, of course. Having eternity to look for something definitely gives you a clear advantage :smallbiggrin:

BUT, if you can't / don't want to destroy the Gates or get rid of them (which nullifies the advantage of the everliving monstrosity by getting rid of the problem altogether), hiding something perfectly* works better than defending it perfectly*, ESPECIALLY in the very long run.

Static defences* sooner or later will crumble under the weight of time, and living defences sooner or later get distracted, get overwhelmed, fall for power or eventually make a good-willed mistake. It's inevitable, because no one is perfect.

Secrecy*, instead, requires little to no maintenance and, if anything, gets STRONGER as the years pass.

Of course there's little you can do to get rid of the problem if Xykon decides to spend eternity digging one billion holes in the whole desert... but that's as close you can get as making the Gate unwinnable, imho.

(*disclaimer: I know perfect secrecy doesn't exist, especially in D&D with gods and epic scryers as others have pointed out... but perfect defences don't exist either, so it's kind of a moot point to establish which can get "more close to perfection" than the other. As I said, I think that, if anything, secrecy is more durable, if done right.)

[Connington]

If quibbling over what defense is the closest to perfect, then what are we doing in this thread?:smalltongue:

The problem with secrecy is that ultimately, it's just another form of static defense. And an all or nothing gambit as well. At any one time, there are at least a handful of villians with the epic levels to take a credible shot at cracking Girard's secrecy. It is most certainly a matter of when, not if. Now, by trusting some people (I don't completely disregard the value of secrecy, I just dislike total secrecy) it at least becomes a contest, as the good guys train, find the villian's Achilles Heel, raise allies, and all that heroic stuff. So, again: Illusions to deal with 99% of the problem, and try not screwing your allies over during that crucial 1% scenario. You might not like the odds, but an unfair contest is a lot better than guaranteed defeat, no?

[Susil]

my 2 cents:
Maybe he could just say “The gate is not here, I lied to protect it better, goodbye” instead of long “F**k you Soon” rant, but abusing someone verbally from time to time doesn’t make one evil bastard or dumbass, Roy’s the best example.



It also keeps the people who activated it in one spot, focussing on one thing.


Just a thought.

[Kish]

Eh, he was claiming Girard made a major mistake by being unable to forsee that a group of random adventurers with no direct association with Soon would show up in the precise coordinates that Girard gave Soon and say "Soon" "Sapphire Guard" "Girard" and apparently "Gate" in that exact location over 50 years after preparing the spell.

Kinda a bull**** claim if you ask me.
It certainly is. Just one question.

Who's the "he" who made that claim? I haven't seen anyone make a claim anything like it. I've seen you act like I was making it, and actively ignore my saying other things; if I'm "he," then what you just posted is the definition of a strawman. And quite a passive-aggressive one, since you've switched from engaging with me to telling other people I'm saying things I didn't say.

[Jan Mattys]

The problem with secrecy is that ultimately, it's just another form of static defense. And an all or nothing gambit as well. At any one time, there are at least a handful of villians with the epic levels to take a credible shot at cracking Girard's secrecy. It is most certainly a matter of when, not if.

The nice thing about secrecy is that, as I said, it gets stronger over time.
Spend a whole lifetime without letting anyone know of the Gate, and it will begin to fade from memories. If things go smooth in the first century or so (not that this is the cas in OOTS story, sadly, but still...), Girard's gate will simply cease to exist because no one will be able not only to crack its secrets, but to assume its very existence.

Reducing my thought to the very basic elements:
1- If the other members of the Order of the Scribble had kept secrecy in a higher consideration (i.e. Serini not keeping a diary, Lirian keeping her mouth shut, Dorukan not putting his love interest over the world's interest, and Soon's descendant not trusting anyone outside the Sapphire Guard), then Girard's gate would have been absolutely impossible to find.
2- On the other hand, a thousand years could pass, and still Lirian's gate could have been found, a goody adventurer could have touched the sigil out of curiosity, or Azure City could have been conquered and the throne sapphire destroyed.

That's the difference between static defences and secrecy. Static defences are meant to stay, while secrets are meant to fade. So, time makes the first weaker, and the second stronger.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I was pleasantly surprised that The Giant could express the viewpoint that I share, through Girard's voice, so eloquently and convincingly. He didn't make it sound like a strawman. I must say, I am impressed with The Giant today.

:confused:

You really think Girard's speech is the epitome of anti-Law? Really? All I see is a brief argument. Two sentences. One of them is the premise that "Power corrupts", and the other one is an explanation of his particular take on it.
Because if this is all the eloquence that anti-authoritarianism has to express (hint: it's not, IMO), it's a rather poor philosophy.

[Mugen Nightgale]

I agree with the OP.

And I don't understand why the "infamous rant" is so important. Girard at some point wanted to attack Soon, they are not BFF thats not news for us. How was he supposed to know about Xyckon and other threats? As far as I know he is just keeping his word and protecting his gate with Illusions and deception. I wonder if the message was different how would this forum react.


"heya how you doin? If you are looking for the gate, then you are wasting your time. I gave the wrong coordinates. Because I don't trust you whoever you are. Bye."

[Optimystik]

I was pleasantly surprised that The Giant could express the viewpoint that I share, through Girard's voice, so eloquently and convincingly.

Just because Rich understands Chaotic behavior, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html) doesn't mean he endorses Chaotic Stupid. In fact, I'd argue the opposite. You shouldn't assume that everything that comes out of a character's mouth is Author On Board, you know.

[HandofShadows]

I think Girard's defences will fall just as the other defences did. ALL of them are one trick ponies and have fundimental weaknesses that can be exploited. It's just a matter of finding the weakness. Multilayered defences of different types are much more flexible and resiliant.
What is interesting in the long term is that there is the possibility that the Order of the Stick might take up the job of protecting the gates and I don't think they will screw it up as the Scrible did. The members of the Order of the Stick have a lot more respect for there others abilites. I don't think the Scrible crew had that.

[Turkish Delight]

What is interesting in the long term is that there is the possibility that the Order of the Stick might take up the job of protecting the gates and I don't think they will screw it up as the Scrible did. The members of the Order of the Stick have a lot more respect for there others abilites. I don't think the Scrible crew had that.

I suspect when this comic is over there will be no more need to guard gates, for anyone. Some form of confrontation or greater understanding of the Snarl or the 'Snarl's world' seems more likely, though as a creature capable of obliterating reality in a few minutes it's unlikely to be a straight-up battle.

[Random832]

In addition, there was always the possibility that, since Soon was creating an entire order of Paladins who would know about the gates, that even if he did not renege on his promise, one of his successors would. And let's not forget, Shojo ultimately did, and to a certain degree for reasons similar to what Girard anticipated - he did believe the greater good could be served by checking up on the other gates. Who is to say that, had things gone as he had originally intended and the Order had reported back to him after locating each of the other gates, he wouldn't also have attempted to reinforce those gates' defenses with something of his own? In which case, would that functionally be any different from Soon deciding to take over the defense of all of the gates? Not by much, I'd say.

Not really. He only did that after Lirian's Gate was destroyed, and everyone monitoring the gates to react* in the event of the destruction of one of them was part of the original deal. So we're back to it being Girard who ignored that part of the agreement.

*It is fundamentally implied that they agreed it would be acceptable to act if one of the gates was destroyed, or there would be no purpose in setting up the monitoring spells at all.

[Aldrakan]

I think Girard's defences will fall just as the other defences did. ALL of them are one trick ponies and have fundimental weaknesses that can be exploited. It's just a matter of finding the weakness. Multilayered defences of different types are much more flexible and resiliant.
What is interesting in the long term is that there is the possibility that the Order of the Stick might take up the job of protecting the gates and I don't think they will screw it up as the Scrible did. The members of the Order of the Stick have a lot more respect for there others abilites. I don't think the Scrible crew had that.

Although I'm not sure about the others, I'd speak in defense of the Azure gate defenses. The gate itself was a closely kept secret and placing it in the throne room means that guarding it shouldn't raise any eyebrows, the room was rigged to unleash ghost-martyrs and was warded against scrying, there's an order of paladins dedicated to defending it, and they built an entire city around the thing to bring an army and fortifications into play. The only thing it seems to be missing is a defense on the gate itself like Durokan had.
I mean several of those things fell apart, but it seems like a fairly solid defense to me.

[MReav]

and they built an entire city around the thing to bring an army and fortifications into play.

Nitpick: The city predated the Gate and maybe even the Rift.

[TheSummoner]

It certainly is. Just one question.

Who's the "he" who made that claim? I haven't seen anyone make a claim anything like it. I've seen you act like I was making it, and actively ignore my saying other things; if I'm "he," then what you just posted is the definition of a strawman. And quite a passive-aggressive one, since you've switched from engaging with me to telling other people I'm saying things I didn't say.

By he, I was referring to...


I'm not sure how it's possible to say a man is right when the evidence that he just screwed up royally is right before your eyes.

His rant was directed at Soon and his Paladins. Are the OotS either of those things? Nope.

His rant was designed because he expected Soon would come out of some Fascist desire to control all the gates. Very clearly, that isn't why the OotS has come, and Girard apparently didn't take into account the possibility someone might start picking off the gates one by one and one of the other Scribble members might feel the need to warn him about it.

He miscalculated badly and shot himself in the foot.

Not you.

[Turkish Delight]

If you were responding to me, then...


Eh, he was claiming Girard made a major mistake by being unable to forsee that a group of random adventurers with no direct association with Soon would show up in the precise coordinates that Girard gave Soon and say "Soon" "Sapphire Guard" "Girard" and apparently "Gate" in that exact location over 50 years after preparing the spell.

Kinda a bull**** claim if you ask me.

...he has blatantly made a major mistake because that particular seemingly unlikely happenstance has just occured. To offer a metaphor, if you build a massive fortress which is all but impregnable except for one tiny, tiny, tiny little weak point, and an enemy then finds and exploits that weak point to overrun the fortress and kill you and everyone else inside it, you've made a major mistake. Really, you have.

In this case, Girard's illusion comes across all the more smugly idiotic precisely because he has isolated himself from a band of powerful potential allies against a very great coming threat for reasons that turned out to be completely off-base. His calculations about the likelihood of what was going to happen are meaningless because they proved totally wrong, and now he has isolated himself from a major potential advantage and can only pray that Xykon isn't clever enough to catch him or find his gate.

He screwed up. Big time. Theoretical brilliance makes a pretty poor showing if it doesn't at some point coincide with reality.

[TheSummoner]

If you were responding to me, then...

...he has blatantly made a major mistake because that particular seemingly unlikely happenstance has just occured. To offer a metaphor, if you build a massive fortress which is all but impregnable except for one tiny, tiny, tiny little weak point, and an enemy then finds and exploits that weak point to overrun the fortress and kill you and everyone else inside it, you've made a major mistake. Really, you have.

In this case, Girard's illusion comes across all the more smugly idiotic precisely because he has isolated himself from a band of powerful potential allies against a very great coming threat for reasons that turned out to be completely off-base. His calculations about the likelihood of what was going to happen are meaningless because they proved totally wrong, and now he has isolated himself from a major potential advantage and can only pray that Xykon isn't clever enough to catch him or find his gate.

He screwed up. Big time. Theoretical brilliance makes a pretty poor showing against ugly reality.

How is that a major mistake? Oh boy, a bunch of adventurers who stand little chance against Xykon at the present stumbled onto a preset insult intended for someone else and got insulted. Now they can'd find the macguffin or fight they guy who steamrolled them last time.

Battle for Azure City. At that time, only Roy and V were capable of even hurting Xykon. V was separated from the group so Roy tried it alone... only to be killed by a single attack (well, two if you cont the finger of death and the ground did most of the work, but you get the point). They might be slightly stronger now but I doubt its enough to do much good... and thats not even considering Redcloak or Tsukiko in the battle.

IF Girard gave Serini the right coordinates, then THAT was a major mistake. If Serini figured them out herself then THAT was a major mistake on her part. Theres no way to know if either of these are true yet. Playing a scathing message to a bunch of adventurers it wasn't intended for who had to do something very specific to trigger it? Thats is NOT a major mistake. He didn't mean it to be for them, but it hardly endangers the gate or the world.

[Nilan8888]

Only because you've set the bar so high that only 100% perfection is the only way to avoid a MAJOR (not even minor) mistake.

In fact, you're sort of judging it by virtue of what actually comes to pass, not what could have possibly been known by the maker of the plan. By that logic I could build an impenatrable defense in 1200 A.D for a city bombed out in WWII and made a MAJOR mistake because I didn't account for B-52s bombing my city.

Curse my bad planning. I TOTALLY should have had my medieval knights and serfs install those AA guns.



Reducing my thought to the very basic elements:
1- If the other members of the Order of the Scribble had kept secrecy in a higher consideration (i.e. Serini not keeping a diary, Lirian keeping her mouth shut, Dorukan not putting his love interest over the world's interest, and Soon's descendant not trusting anyone outside the Sapphire Guard), then Girard's gate would have been absolutely impossible to find.
2- On the other hand, a thousand years could pass, and still Lirian's gate could have been found, a goody adventurer could have touched the sigil out of curiosity, or Azure City could have been conquered and the throne sapphire destroyed.

That's the difference between static defences and secrecy. Static defences are meant to stay, while secrets are meant to fade. So, time makes the first weaker, and the second stronger.

This is PRECISELY correct. Well ok, I don't know if it's necessarily a given that secrets get stronger over time since there's a number of ways to interpret that phrase. But certainly there's an attainable perfect secret: when nobody knows anything about the gates or the rifts, and nobody is CAPABLE of knowing about them because everything about these things has been destroyed except for the gates themselves.

In that case, the only way real damage could be caused would be through a series of accidents:

1. One Gate would have to be accidentally found. This could be a major unlikelyhood from the outset.
2. Said Gate would have to be recognized to be of any importance without any information remotely available to inform someone.
3. Without information available, said someone would have to take the time to perform careful research just to arrive at a point of knowledge Shojo is able to relate in the scribbles. Research without any likelihood of ever arriving at any certainty since nobody's around to tell them what's up. How would someone know that this random gate doesn't just contain a portal to 10 feet across the room?
4. Even given all this, the revelation of the "planet within a planet" means someone would after THAT have to figure out how that complicates matters. and even we don't know that.

This is why secrecy's the best method. Had this been kept an absolute secret and all records destroyed and members of the Scribble died off without informing anyone, we'd be left with a bunch of protective Gates that would be unlikely for anyone to run across, unlikely that anyone could do anything with if they found them, and unlikely that anyone would even think they're any more important than at best a +1 sword.

[Asta Kask]

If you were responding to me, then...

...he has blatantly made a major mistake because that particular seemingly unlikely happenstance has just occured. To offer a metaphor, if you build a massive fortress which is all but impregnable except for one tiny, tiny, tiny little weak point, and an enemy then finds and exploits that weak point to overrun the fortress and kill you and everyone else inside it, you've made a major mistake. Really, you have.

See also Skywalker vs. Death Star, Frodo vs. Sauron, and Potter vs. Voldemort.

[Nilan8888]

IF Girard gave Serini the right coordinates, then THAT was a major mistake. If Serini figured them out herself then THAT was a major mistake on her part. Theres no way to know if either of these are true yet. Playing a scathing message to a bunch of adventurers it wasn't intended for who had to do something very specific to trigger it? Thats is NOT a major mistake. He didn't mean it to be for them, but it hardly endangers the gate or the world.

This is also true. It merely confirms what any one of them would have been suspecting after the week they'd spent: the Gate's not there.

It wouldn't be too much longer before anyone, if they'd found the message or not, started to look beyond the coordinates for answers or assume the coordinates were wrong. It merely rules out one location out of an entire continent, and it wouldn't have been much longer before others started to rule the location out anyway out of sheer frustration.

[Turkish Delight]

How is that a major mistake? Oh boy, a bunch of adventurers who stand little chance against Xykon at the present stumbled onto a preset insult intended for someone else and got insulted. Now they can'd find the macguffin or fight they guy who steamrolled them last time.

Or, more accurately, they can't join forces with the Epic-level Illusionist who probably could have a chance of taking on Xykon one-on-one. To date, Xykon has beaten three of the other Order of the Scribble members, but always only after a very bitter fight that could've easily gone the other way if not for skill or luck (at least, that's what I understand of the Dorukan and elf-chick fights; haven't read SoD.)

With a band of mid-level adventurers backing him up at the same time, and keeping Redcloak and Tsukiko out of the fight, Xykon might very well be outmatched. That is why they're looking for the gate in the first place, remember? To warn Girard and possibly lay an ambush?

But nope; he's apparently made the 'protection' of the gate completely indifferent to recognizing potential friend from foe, no matter whether the other gates are dropping like flies to an epic-level threat, so that it's all down to a desperate prayer that the good guys are smart enough to figure out the location of Girard and/or his gate first. If they aren't, and Xykon discovers it, Girard will stand alone against Xykon, Redcloak and Tsukiko. At which point he'll probably die gruesomely.

[Skorj]

Furthermore, Girard's gate is not well defended at all. The Order of the Stick doesn't know where it is, because Girard lied to Soon. Xykon does know where it is, unless Girard also lied to Serini. And even then, it's not improbable that Xykon and Redcloak may be able to piece together the gate's actual location if Serini recorded the journey to the gate in her diary. Plus, we know from the Oracle that Xykon will reach Girard's gate. So now, instead of the good guys arriving first to warn Girard and help him fight Xykon, Girard will probably have to face Xykon alone. And I guarantee you he will lose.


I think that whether Girard was an idiot entirely comes down to this. There's an old expression that "three people can keep a secret, if two of them are dead", but dead men tell tales in D&D.

If anyone but Girard knows where the gate is, then this was a big screw-up by Girard. If Girard was able to lie to everyone, then this was an awesome strategy.

EDIT:

But nope; he's apparently made the 'protection' of the gate completely indifferent to recognizing potential friend from foe, no matter whether the other gates are dropping like flies to an epic-level threat, so that it's all down to a desperate prayer that the good guys are smart enough to figure out the location of Girard and/or his gate first. If they aren't, and Xykon discovers it, Girard will stand alone against Xykon, Redcloak and Tsukiko. At which point he'll probably die gruesomely.

Most of the modern widespread and succcessful attacks on computer security rely on tricking "friends" into letting the bad guy in. We saw this very strategy work in OOTS - tricking the good guys into bypassing defenses that tried to identify friend from foe, but weren't perfect. A defense that can be bypassed simply by being recognized as a friend is mediocre at best.

[TheSummoner]

Or, more accurately, they can't join forces with the Epic-level Illusionist who probably could have a chance of taking on Xykon one-on-one. To date, Xykon has beaten three of the other Order of the Scribble members, but always only after a very bitter fight that could've easily gone the other way if not for skill or luck (at least, that's what I understand of the Dorukan and elf-chick fights; haven't read SoD.)

With a band of mid-level adventurers backing him up at the same time, and keeping Redcloak and Tsukiko out of the fight, Xykon might very well be outmatched. That is why they're looking for the gate in the first place, remember? To warn Girard and possibly lay an ambush?

But nope; he's apparently made the 'protection' of the gate completely indifferent to recognizing potential friend from foe, no matter whether the other gates are dropping like flies to an epic-level threat, so that it's all down to a desperate prayer that the good guys are smart enough to figure out the location of Girard and/or his gate first. If they aren't, and Xykon discovers it, Girard will stand alone against Xykon, Redcloak and Tsukiko. At which point he'll probably die gruesomely.

The entire thing hinges around the assumption that this epic-level threat can even find his gate. Yes, we know from the oracle's prophecy and because the story would be pretty boring otherwise that Xykon will make it within 1000 feet of his gate. Girard. Does. Not. Girard's entire strategy revolves around the epic-level threat not even finding his gate in the first place, and unless he was stupid enough to tell Serini the real location of it, its a very sound plan. We still don't know how Xykon will get there, it could be Girard's fault (he told Serini where his gate is) it could be the Order's fault (they find it and Xykon finds them... maybe the IFCC does something involving V.) and it could be someone else's fault entirely (Serini discovered the true location herself and recorded it).

The point is, Girard's entire plan is to prevent any threats from ever finding his gate. If it works, then it is the best way to protect the thing since no one would even know what or where it is. If it fails, its no worse than the other 3 that have fallen so far.

[Feefers]

You're assuming that either Girard recorded that message recently or that the message is able to think for itself.

Or that Girard is a master illusionist and can cast spells to make him look pretty much like anything he wants.

Illusion; is a distortion of the senses, revealing how the brain normally organizes and interprets sensory stimulation.

True smelling, True Hearing, True tasting and True Feeling should also be cast, just in case and let's not get started on True Directional sensing, True Temporal sensing, true temprature sense and what other myriad of senses could be easily confused by a master of the illusionary arts.

What other things could fall under illusion, deception you say?

Could it be that the illusion is just flat out lying, what lie to a paladin, a Lawful good being that the very concept of lying confuses (see also Xylon's brothers and shell games) why would an illusion do such a thing.

Oh because most paladins would accept it as truth and move on, not thinking to perhaps try something else.

Maybe we'll get to see dinosaur Elan yet...

[Pigkappa]

There's an italian song [...]

And that song is wonderful :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, I don't really think Girard's idea was very good. The fact is, the world is in danger even if only one of the gates falls in Xykon's hands; if nobody knows where he is, nobody can ask him for help in case of need. If Lirian had known her gate was going to be attacked and had time to prepare herself, she would likely have asked for Dorukan's help. Dorukan knew his gate was going to be attacked and didn't ask anybody to help him, and that didn't turn out so cool for him. Azure City faced the menace alone and the gate was destroyed.
Probably Soon wouldn't have asked for Girard's help in any case, but he can't be really sure that even the faith of the whole universe is more important than pride for a paladin.


Still, we aren't sure that Girard hasn't put a spell in the area to tell him that those coordinate have been visited by Soon; he may as well have more surprises for us.




The point is, Girard's entire plan is to prevent any threats from ever finding his gate. If it works, then it is the best way to protect the thing since no one would even know what or where it is. If it fails, its no worse than the other 3 that have fallen so far.

Since the first gate was found randomly, without even the use of magic, and now there's an epic lich sorcerer looking for that gate, and a deity really wants his most important cleric to find it, I don't think any kind of disguise is totally safe...

[TheBlackShadow]

Concerning the events of strip 695; Paranoia Will Destroy Ya: OK, NOW we're screwed. Now its readily apparent that Girard didn't have the Gate's security in mind more than his grudge with Soon. Which is pretty ****. Maybe he did think that Soon was a legitimate threat to the Gate, but overall I can't justify him any more now. :smallfrown:

[TheSummoner]

Well, to quote Bender, "we're boned"

The guy has enough forsight to protect his gate from Soon and then does something stupid like tell his other teammate where it is...

[Dervag]

So hes wrong for being prepared? Would it have been better if he hadn't defended the gate against Soon at all? The Order got those coordinates from the Sapphire Guard, indirectly, they are tied to Shojo.Probably it would be better. Think about it. It was one thing for the Order of the Scribble to break up and guard the gates separately while they were alive, given how hard it would have been for them to cooperate and make a joint effort to guard them.

But except Lirian the elf, all of them were doomed to die of old age within a century, at most. What was going to happen then? The need to guard the gates was permanent, not temporary. What would happen if, say, Dorukan died of old age (as he would have done soon anyway, even if Xykon hadn't gotten involved), and some powerful enemy had started laying siege to his magic-protected dungeon? They'd have broken down the defenses sooner or later, and the only thing that could realistically have blocked access to the gate would be an intervention from outside by surviving Scribble members or their successors (such as the Sapphire Guard).

While it made sense for the Order of the Scribble members to guard their gates separately, each in their own way, it did NOT make sense for them to swear never to interact for each other on matters involving the gates. Being too proud to call for help, or to admit the possibility that the defenses you set up might need to be reinforced some time after you die, isn't good planning. It's just stupid.

And even if we accept that it made sense for them to resolve not to contact each other about the gates (to avoid ANY possibility of conflict), it is still stupid to deliberately secure your gate against the efforts of other Scribble members (or their successors) to interfere. That leaves the entire system of gate defenses vulnerable to exactly the sort of situation happening now: an enemy rolling up the defenses of each gate one by one, without anyone being in a position to block them by concentrating forces at any one gate.

Any good defense plan makes allowances for emergencies... and Girard's plan doesn't.


Furthermore, Girard's gate is not well defended at all. The Order of the Stick doesn't know where it is, because Girard lied to Soon. Xykon does know where it is, unless Girard also lied to Serini.Why wouldn't he?


So Girard, for all his clever sarcasm, is actually a great fool. And let's be blunt here: he was a fool primarily because of bigotry against Soon's religious beliefs. And don't forget: Soon would have been freed from his oath in the event of the fall of his gate, which is exactly what happened here.All true.


Girard is manifestly not right. He's making an assumption (that anyone mentioning Soon near the coordinates means Soon or "one of his fascist paladin lackeys" broke the oath) which is wrong, as in factually untainted by truth. He's addressing a message to someone who is dead and nowhere near where the message is being delivered. He's ranting about the evils of authority to a group of people of whom one falls in the mildest of the categories he names, that of "party leader." Girard manages to be wrong in so many different ways at once that I'm mystified by the number of people on this forum who have made posts about how awesome and right he is since the last strip.Girard is awesome in the sense that he is a superb example of his alignment, but foolish in the sense that he's getting the facts wrong (as you describe). This was a very clever and unexpected twist, but one that we should probably have seen coming: Girard is an illusionist, a master of confusion, deception, and distortion of reality. What were the odds that he was really going to tell everyone the truth about what his plans for securing the gate were?

The whole point of his gate defense doctrine is to hide the gate, and he has to know his illusions can be broken by sufficient use of Dispels or Search checks. So as a capstone to his doctrine, he must not only hide the gate with active deceptions at its location, but conceal the location itself.

Or at least, he must try to convince people that the location is concealed; it's possible that this message was meant to throw off anyone searching for the gate and that this really is the location. There may be other recorded messages for a variety of other contingencies, including one coded for random evil people who just happen to have decided to try to find the gate.

I mean, remember what Roy actually said: "Illusion? Well, that certainly seems to point toward Girard... and these are pretty much the exact center of the coordinates Soon handed down to the Sapphire Guard."

Anyone could have said that, not just one of Soon's paladins, provided they somehow managed to extract the information from Soon. For instance, if Redcloak and Xykon had first attacked Azure City, captured Shojo or any senior paladins who knew the coordinates, and ripped the information from their mind, they would have gone to this spot in the desert and probably said the same words.

So even if Girard is not so hostile to Soon that he would deliberately lie to him, it would still make some sense for him to place a message like this to fool other enemies who might use Soon's knowledge to locate his gate. With someone whose schtick was hiding the truth behind a wall of fakery, we can't be sure exactly what happened yet.

[Jan Mattys]

Ok, OOTS 695 out...
GIRARD WAS WRONG

:smallbiggrin:

[TheSummoner]

Yep... Girard was wrong big time...

A shame to... I had hopes that he would be as competent as he originally seemed...

[Dervag]

Yup. This latest comic makes a mockery of much of my speculation: Girard really IS as big an idiot as some of us thought he was, and the some. A spiteful, murderous idiot, too.

He didn't keep the gate's location a secret, he did give away the fact that someone knew the secret in his own idiotic rant, and he did plan to kill any ally who might come from Soon or the Guard to help protect his gate.

[SaintRidley]

I retract everything. Girard is a complete idiot.

[Optimystik]

Chaotic Stupid

AND How. :smallamused:

[Kish]

Yep... Girard was wrong big time...

A shame to... I had hopes that he would be as competent as he originally seemed...
Well, I stand by my assertion that he, in fact, proved to be exactly as competent as he originally seemed: a paranoid idiot who rants at people who are hundreds of miles away, dead, and innocent of what he accuses them of. But at least we're no longer arguing over how competent he actually is now.

I do, however, still feel the obligation to point out something about this:

If it works, then it is the best way to protect the thing
That's as circular an argument as anyone could make. A plan which works is an effective plan. But even before strip #694, we knew it would not work, because of the Oracle's prediction of Xykon being within a thousand feet of Girard's Gate. And so, with equal circularity, I say now what I could have said then but it seemed too obvious: Whatever Girard's plan to protect his Gate, it's not going to work.

[Snails]

Let's put some perspective on Girard's actions...

There is approximately a 50-50 chance that Elan has just been killed.

[SPoD]

But except Lirian the elf, all of them were doomed to die of old age within a century, at most. What was going to happen then? The need to guard the gates was permanent, not temporary. What would happen if, say, Dorukan died of old age (as he would have done soon anyway, even if Xykon hadn't gotten involved), and some powerful enemy had started laying siege to his magic-protected dungeon? They'd have broken down the defenses sooner or later, and the only thing that could realistically have blocked access to the gate would be an intervention from outside by surviving Scribble members or their successors (such as the Sapphire Guard).

Just one factual discrepancy: Girard would not have known that controlling one Gate was enough for a villain to do anything. The idea of using a single Gate to control the Snarl did not exist until some time after Dorukan finished the Gates. Therefore, in the Scribbler's minds, the only defense that was needed was to defend against someone trying to conquer ALL FIVE Gates in a plan to destroy the world.

So, in the situation you describe, Girard's reaction to a monster taking over Dorukan's dungeon would have been, "Oh well, I guess I better shore up my defenses." There would have been little reason to try to re-conquer it.

[Hatchet]

I agree that if he told the truth about giving Serini the real coordinates, then he made an enormous tactical error. Like, "-16 size modifier to AC" enormous.

The only reason I can think of is that Serini's crush wasn't just a crush and he loved her back, but that doesn't make it less of a mistake.

I wouldn't call trying to kill Soon a sign of stupidity just yet. Maybe there's a whole lot more going on in the background that we don't know of. Of course, I'm not saying that Girard's attack on Soon was morally justified :smallwink:

One other thing that surprised me is that the other members seem to share Girard's distrust of Soon (thought probably to a lesser extent). I mean Girard seems sure Serini would never give him the real coordinates, and the whole betting on when the paladin breaks his word thing suggests that maybe Soon wasn't very popular with the others either.

[Optimystik]

There is approximately a 50-50 chance that Elan has just been killed.

I would say a zero percent chance, because the last thing we need is another afterlife scene.

But Girard was still EXTREMELY irresponsible.

[Jagos]

Ok... So Girard and Kraagor must have been really good friends. Either that or Girard really took it personally when Soon ordered them to seal the gate with Kraagor inside.

Seems to me that the main thing is that Girard is running on anger. Far more than necessary.

[Milandros]

Girard was wrong insofar as his guess that Soon or his Paladins would one day attempt to take over the defense of all the gates turned out to be incorrect. This is undeniable fact.

Was he wrong to plan for that possibility? I don't think so.
...

Zevox

I think he was wrong to prepare for that possibility. It seems to be near the level of paranoia. Is Durkon wrong not to have some contingency ready to destroy Roy and his minions if they turn on him? Should Elan have assassins arranged to kill Haley in case she murders him for whatever money he's carrying? This would require a massive misreading of the personality of the target of that paranoia - Soon does not seem to have ever even come close to sending armies to conquer the gates, buwahahahaha.

Soon appears to have been a true paladin, not a Miko-style might-fall-at-any-second only just a paladin. He kept his oath not to interfere; not only that, but he installed that ethos so solidly in his order that a couple of generations later they *still* honour that oath, even though there may be a terrible danger. He had enough honour that even all those years later he still stood ready to defend his gate, even past his own death.

Maybe he should have prepared better for that rogue, Serini, selling him out? Or maybe for Kraagor's inevitable leading of barbarian hordes to conquer the world? Or Dorukan deciding that he could gain arcane power from control of all the gates?

Or maybe he just misread Soon, through his own anger at whatever upset him.

[Milandros]

Being anti-authority is right. Lawful is Evil. They do not care about the individual, they only care about the whole.

Of course, chaotic is massively evil as well. They do not care about others, only for their own pleasure. They'll burn the world and everyone in it for their own amusement. They take what they want, and laugh at the pain of those who suffer. They murder and rob and rape and pillage and burn. They'll smash the world to see if it makes a pretty noise.

Or maybe it's more complicated than that...

I don't see the lawful good man who cares for his family, works hard and with dedication to keep them fed and warm, who never cheats on his wife, who loves and cares for his kids but applies discipline in a fair and consistent manner when required, is organised in his personal affairs, who pays his bills on time and in full and who lives by a personal code of never harming anyone who does not actively seek to harm him as being "evil". Even if he is lawful.

[Winthur]

So.

"It's you who should have died there."

I guess the Crack Pairing thread now has Kraagor x Girard.

[MReav]

I guess the Crack Pairing thread now has Kraagor x Girard.

I had that idea for some time before that line.

[golentan]

This is just crazed paranoia at this point. This was clearly a trap set specifically for Soon. If he had left false coordinates with Serini, and the trap was intended to destroy any who came for the gate, I would find it justifiable. This is simply hatred fueled paranoia resulting in a vendetta against a man who's been dead for a very long time, and honestly kept to all he pledged, and actively hindering the cause that they had agreed on.

As is, I think at this point it should be obvious that Girard wasn't attempting to keep the gate secret from everybody (which would have made great sense), he was hoping to have an excuse to kill Soon. And he assumed that anyone with knowledge of them would be a legitimate excuse. I'm hoping that the warning he spoke of will cause him to show up to finish off any "Fascist Paladins" and that he'll be able to be reasoned with, and accept the honest warning. But I'm not optimistic.

Now, I am optimistic we'll have a great story out of whatever happens, but that's not in character.

[Connington]

The nice thing about secrecy is that, as I said, it gets stronger over time.
Spend a whole lifetime without letting anyone know of the Gate, and it will begin to fade from memories. If things go smooth in the first century or so (not that this is the cas in OOTS story, sadly, but still...), Girard's gate will simply cease to exist because no one will be able not only to crack its secrets, but to assume its very existence.

Reducing my thought to the very basic elements:
1- If the other members of the Order of the Scribble had kept secrecy in a higher consideration (i.e. Serini not keeping a diary, Lirian keeping her mouth shut, Dorukan not putting his love interest over the world's interest, and Soon's descendant not trusting anyone outside the Sapphire Guard), then Girard's gate would have been absolutely impossible to find.
2- On the other hand, a thousand years could pass, and still Lirian's gate could have been found, a goody adventurer could have touched the sigil out of curiosity, or Azure City could have been conquered and the throne sapphire destroyed.

That's the difference between static defences and secrecy. Static defences are meant to stay, while secrets are meant to fade. So, time makes the first weaker, and the second stronger.

I suppose it's a little late to argue over this, since the latest comic would seem to confirm all of my worst suspicions and then some. However, the point is still worth arguing. The problem is that any argument for total secrecy breaks down on the simple fact that there are multiple gates, and they aren't all guarded by illusions. In particular, at least two of these appear to be standard dungeons that attract adventurers like magnets. Even if they were all hidden (difficult, considering one's ginormous, and another is in a populated area), then it still only takes one illusion being dispelled for someone to get a hold of a gate. And Girard would be a fool to put that much trust in his illusions, considering that it's a simple fact that their are evil aligned spellcasters of a higher level than him in the world.

[The Pink Ninja]

Repeating myself from another thread:

When they last met, Soon and Girard were trying to kill one another.

What did you think Girard would do?

[Kish]

I had no opinion on what Girard would do.

Now I know. He's an idiot and/or a monster.

[doliest]

I'm going to have to say that this comic really raises my faith in Giraad's competency; on the other hand it also lowers it. He's competent for preparing said explosion and incompetent for TELLING SERINI. Seriously man; what did NONE OF THEM SEE HER WRITING!? Still if he went to this length to get revenge on Soon I'm guessing our lovable master of force Xykon will find a Gate hidden under several miles of desert that constantly shift around it.

[Shatteredtower]

That's not how it works.

You misunderstand. It's one thing to be scores of miles off in the desert. It will still be the same desert. Still impossible for one who doesn't know how to look, but not on par with what Girard suggests.

Even so, why would someone like Soon wait until after the quest to learn coordinates from one of his expendable companions?

As for the claim of hiding things being poor security, as a later poster claimed, that's what a password is--a way to hide what you can't move. For best results, it gets changed regularly. Something similar can be done with illusions, in part by changing what they conceal. Some of those illusions probably won't even be magical.

[Shatteredtower]

(Sorry, my system still limits post size.)


Now I know. He's an idiot and/or a monster.

Neither. He just has grounds for believing Soon is the latter. Besides, the results we see are no worse than the average explosive runes and wouldn't be triggered by someone less durable than a certain parking attendant.

[Kader]

Besides, the results we see are no worse than the average explosive runes...

Pretty clearly not the case. Compare the last panel of the previous comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html) (Belkar nowhere to be seen) and you'll see that the explosion was powerful enough to blow Roy a very long distance. Even with the soft landing on the running gag he's still pretty injured.

Roy just probably has a ****-ton of hit points by now.

[Shatteredtower]

Pretty clearly not the case.

A few scratches indicate it is exactly the case. We've seen Belkar sport worse after a cup of coffee. Distance is there for the gag.

[Kader]

We've seen Belkar sport worse after a cup of coffee. Distance is there for the gag.

No. Belkar was ony scorched (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0320.html) after TWO successive explosive runes.

[Zeful]

You misunderstand. It's one thing to be scores of miles off in the desert. It will still be the same desert. Still impossible for one who doesn't know how to look, but not on par with what Girard suggests.

Even so, why would someone like Soon wait until after the quest to learn coordinates from one of his expendable companions?Because until then it's not relevant where precisely in the world the gate is. There are three casters that can teleport them to anywhere in the world they need to go. It's when they split up and have to rely on their own resources that the specific position becomes important. Soon needed to, if in case of emergency, be able to direct his forces to another gate should his fall.

[Shatteredtower]

No. Belkar was ony scorched (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0320.html) after TWO successive explosive runes.

Then you concede the point.

[MReav]

No. Belkar was ony scorched (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0320.html) after TWO successive explosive runes.

11. And a Fire trap. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0323.html)

[Shale]

Because being scorched (but taking no visible damage) from two is the same as taking substantial visible damage from one?

[Shatteredtower]

Because until then it's not relevant where precisely in the world the gate is.

Sure it was. If Girard died at the next rift, it's good as lost.

[Kader]

Then you concede the point.

How do you figure.

The fact that Roy, who probably has a fair bit higher HP than Belkar, took significantly more visible damage than Belkar took from 2 explosive runes (and a fire trap, thank you MReav), would seem to indicate that the explosion is, contrary to your assertion, in fact worse than the average explosive rune.

[Solara]

...and the whole betting on when the paladin breaks his word thing suggests that maybe Soon wasn't very popular with the others either.

Well, to be fair, Serini bet that Soon wouldn't come with an army of fascists to attack Girard, and she was right.

[Kish]

Within twelve weeks, anyway.

[Shatteredtower]

Because being scorched (but taking no visible damage) from two is the same as taking substantial visible damage from one?

Substantial? We're shown nothing close to that. It's nothing more than the magical equivalent of a boot to the backside of anyone that could have gotten to it, let alone been eligble to set it off.

Again, this is nothing compared to the parking lot incident.

[Shale]

The red lines, which Roy has after Girard's trap and Belkar does not after Explosive Runes #2 (or more) represent damage, not misapplied lipstick.

[Kader]

It's nothing more than the magical equivalent of a boot to the backside of anyone that could have gotten to it, let alone been eligble to set it off.

You're incorrect. Girard in fact even seems to expect that it's most likely Soon's paladin flunkies who set it off (who aren't all that tough on average (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html)). Damage enough to wound Roy moderately, 12+ level fighter with high Con as he is, is probably damage enough to kill your average Sapphire Guard paladin.

[Shatteredtower]

You're incorrect. Girard in fact even seems to expect that it's most likely Soon's paladin flunkies who set it off (who aren't all that tough on average (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html)). Damage enough to wound Roy moderately, 12+ level fighter with high Con as he is, is probably damage enough to kill your average Sapphire Guard paladin.

In the same way explosive runes should be fatal to parking lot attendants.

Come on, Belkar got scratched up worse by average hobgoblins.

[Jagos]

I had no opinion on what Girard would do.

Now I know. He's an idiot and/or a monster.

I don't know if I agree or not. I understand that Girard lost a friend, with Serini trying to keep things civil between a party that was bound to split up after such an unfateful turn of events. I understand that Girard is angry about that loss, with Soon's words ringing in his ears. Topping that off, while he IS the Jerkass of the group, it doesn't knock that he was fairly accurate in his opinion of the things that could happen.

[Kish]

I don't know if I agree or not. I understand that Girard lost a friend, with Serini trying to keep things civil between a party that was bound to split up after such an unfateful turn of events. I understand that Girard is angry about that loss, with Soon's words ringing in his ears. Topping that off, while he IS the Jerkass of the group, it doesn't knock that he was fairly accurate in his opinion of the things that could happen.
"Accurate" has a meaning. Girard's predictions were manifestly the opposite of accurate. Did Soon come after the gate? No. Did anyone come there within twelve weeks? No. Twelve years? No. Did the people who came there do so to seize all the gates? No. Were they in violation of the original agreement? No, contacting each other when their gates were destroyed was part of the plan. Were they paladins? No, not one of them. Had they ever met Soon? No.

Girard staked other people's lives on his ability to hit a home run, and he's batting zero.

[Renegade Paladin]

Finally, I don't think we've seen the end of Girard's message, so I think it's wise to hold off judgment until we hear ALL he has to say.
Man, you said it. And hoo boy, was he wrong, in almost every sense of the word.
Being anti-authority is right. Lawful is Evil. They do not care about the individual, they only care about the whole.
This information is incorrect.
I was pleasantly surprised that The Giant could express the viewpoint that I share, through Girard's voice, so eloquently and convincingly. He didn't make it sound like a strawman. I must say, I am impressed with The Giant today.

Of course, as long as lawful types are here to dare to try to shout it down, I must remain as well.
Actually, it wasn't that convincing because there was hardly an argument at all; there were all of two sentences laying out that viewpoint, while the rest was against Soon personally. He was also wrong, because Soon did not, in fact, attempt to seize control of his Gate. That fact right there shows that Girard was not right to assume it a certainty that Soon and/or his paladins would attempt to seize the Gates for themselves simply because they were lawful.
Really? Lawful people are always and forever evil? And all in exactly the same way, a way which you know better than them? You think lawful people are a homogeneous group with no differentiation in attitudes, depending on context, other moral factors, how they were raised, their own particular life experiences? My, what a... lawful attitude that is.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/emoticeburn6la.gif
I'd love to argue the point, but I think we are simply an Unstoppable Force and an Immovable Object.

After all, with that rousing tribute to heroic men such as police and firemen, how can you bring yourself to consider my point, since to do so would, in your eyes, diminish them?

It's fine, really. You have all of society on your side. Strength in numbers is all you need, right? Good for you.
We're at Unstoppable Force and Immovable Object already? You didn't even make an attempt at arguing the point to find out! Not to mention, that's somewhat at odds with your earlier pledge to actually argue the point as long as those of us who are right... I'm sorry, lawful, are around. :smalltongue:

[Asta Kask]

How do you figure.

The fact that Roy, who probably has a fair bit higher HP than Belkar, took significantly more visible damage than Belkar took from 2 explosive runes (and a fire trap, thank you MReav), would seem to indicate that the explosion is, contrary to your assertion, in fact worse than the average explosive rune.

Roy probably does not have a fair bit higher HP than Belkar. They're both primary combatants, but Belkar may have a few levels more (since Roy was out of the loop while being dead, and lost 1 for being rescued) and a few levels of Barbarian (d12 rather than d10).

[Raging Gene Ray]

He didn't make it sound like a strawman.

:smallconfused: Yes, he did.

The whole point of this comic is to show that anti-authoritarians can be just as bad as the authorities they hate so much and their attitudes can be just as likely to work against the very same ideals and goals they wanted to defend.

No matter what Girard's problem is with people with "power," he's ignoring the fact that as a protector of a Gate, HE has power now. And with power comes responsibility, like not preparing a spell for somebody because you're "pretty sure" they're someone you hate...or someone working for him...or someone who just happened to mention his name.

[Ave]

Girard is right in general, but this trigger bomb was epic fail for him.

[Shatteredtower]

And with power comes responsibility, like not preparing a spell for somebody because you're "pretty sure" they're someone you hate...or someone working for him...or someone who just happened to mention his name.

Anyone using Soon's name out here would have it as a result of interactions with Soon's organization --which doesn't send the low level types on such missions.

A sending spell could have avoided so much trouble. Girard is easier to describe than Durkon.

"Lich attacking gates. Lirian, Dorukan dead, Serini missing. Verify, then contact Greenhilt through X Inn, Y City."

Eight words to spare, no risk to mass murderers required. Considering how they parted, it was the sensible choice.

[slayerx]

A sending spell could have avoided so much trouble. Girard is easier to describe than Durkon.

Problem with a sending is the simple fact that they must be familiar with the target, and one of the problems with giving a description is the fact that none of them have seen Girard in DECADES... he would have aged and his appearance changed, Hell soon might have not even known he had grown a beard since they last saw eachother. Any description soon could have given the sapphire guard, would have become less relevant over the years.

[Conuly]

Anyone using Soon's name out here would have it as a result of interactions with Soon's organization --which doesn't send the low level types on such missions.

You'd think... but Soon also is, by amazing coincidence, also a common word meaning "in a short while". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) And I can think of many situations in which I might randomly utter the word "soon" while walking about. I'll post them... in a short while :smallcool:

[TheSummoner]

Unless those scenerios also include you saying "Girard" "Sapphire Guard" and "gate" you can't be sure they'd work. =P

[Shatteredtower]

Problem with a sending is the simple fact that they must be familiar with the target...

The cleric of Loki needed only a generic image and description of a dwarf to go with his name. Soon could do better than that.

The OotS can too, now, though an accurate image isn't required for familiarity. Sending isn't going to miss a target that was turned into a toad, even if the sender wasn't aware of that.

[Conuly]

Unless those scenerios also include you saying "Girard" "Sapphire Guard" and "gate" you can't be sure they'd work. =P

Somebody around here *did* post a random conversation between two random adventurers that would have all those phrases in it - I'll link to it if I find it again!

Edit: Here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7518561&postcount=335)!

[slayerx]

The cleric of Loki needed only a generic image and description of a dwarf to go with his name. Soon could do better than that.


The gates essnetially needed to be protected for the whole life time of the world. This would include LONG after Soon was dead... any description he could have given his paladins would become inaccurate as time went on. And unlike Soon, the future paladins had no familiarity with girard leaving the picture being the ONLY way they can build a decent enough familiarity that a sending might work...

Even that dwrf drawing would be more accurate picture of Durkon than a 40+ year old drawing of Girard

[Arcane_Secrets]

It was a rather reasonable precaution. Is the rant necessary? I don't know. Could be part of some misdirection, could be genuine. Could be both.

Regardless, he does appear to have one of the better guarded gates. After all, it hasn't fallen yet. Likewise, Soons gate was pretty clearly guarded better than Dokurans. The easy ones fall first. In a world of magic, something that should never be used by anyone....yeah, hiding that away is a good tactic. Especially when all the others favored visible, static defences.

After all, anyone that can overcome the static defences at the other gates could probably also overcome any similar method tried at Girards. Deception and misdirection at least try a different approach.

I thought Lirien's gate was fairly well defended. The only two factors that she didn't take into account were that the crimson cloak makes its bearer immune to diseases, so Redcloak was unaffected by the antimagic virus, and Redcloak was inadvertently provided with the resources required to make the lich transformation potion while having a suitable subject for it in the form of Xykon. If it wasn't for either of these, Redcloak and Xykon's plan would've failed then and there.

[Optimystik]

Girard's rant may have been justified - if the crusades started under Soon, his "thugs" comment takes on a whole new light.

His heuristic was badly designed, however - and the bomb was completely uncalled for.

[Kish]

Girard's rant may have been justified - if the crusades started under Soon, his "thugs" comment takes on a whole new light.
Girard was there with the rest of the Order of the Scribble, in Start of Darkness, killing goblins and laughing about Kraagor's bar tab, wasn't he?

I would be quite surprised if he turned out to be a champion of goblin rights, though it's possible he objects to something else specific the Sapphire Guard did.

[Optimystik]

Girard was there with the rest of the Order of the Scribble, in Start of Darkness, killing goblins and laughing about Kraagor's bar tab, wasn't he?

I would be quite surprised if he turned out to be a champion of goblin rights, though it's possible he objects to something else specific the Sapphire Guard did.

We saw them killing a Mantlebearer and his accompanying warriors (Who had been actively commanded to "seize the nearest rift") not a peaceful village (who were nowhere near one.) Add to that the fact that the only rift the goblins knew of was in Elven territory, and Girard's actions there aren't quite the same as the paladins at the beginning of the book.

That's an important distinction - those goblins were fighters, and so knew the risks of taking up arms to "seize" things - not women and children staying home doing nothing.

[Roderick_BR]

Ok, Girard went from a jerk and a facist (yes, I went there) to downright evil!
"Soon, in case you are actually standing here..." As in, he knows Soon himself might not be there, and instead have his "lackeys", and still he set up a near-epic level destructive spell intended to kill whoever was approaching it. Yeah, if he wanted to revenge someone by killing the "responsible" (Soon), I can understand, but he knew full well there could have more people there, innocent of the past events.

The fact his "logic" failed to remember the world is full of noisy adventurers... well, that's another topic.

About splitting and each protecting the gate on his own way? Not a bad choice, they just gimped each other by denying important help, because each thought they would never fail. And thus far, 2 gates already fell (one controled by arcane magic too).

[Kish]

Three. Lirian's was first.

[The MunchKING]

You make a good point bringing up the ABD... Its quite possible Tiamat doesn't know/doesn't care about the outcomes of the oracle's prophecies and just answers the questions that get asked... Personally, I'd like to hope that Tiamat would have some knowledge of Xykon and Redcloak and their eventual goal (err... Redcloak's eventual goal) and would be smart enough to not help them out (in the case of the ABD, it could be explained in that the ABD's goal, revenge against V, caused no harm to dragons in itself, but that V's reaction, something Tiamat had been prepared for, did...) but theres really not enough evidence to know either way...

Or she worked out with the Dark One so Evil Dragons will still be on the top of the heap, and Goblins would just get the places now occupied by the races of man in the scheme of things.

[JonahFalcon]

Relax. Girard's probably dead by now.

[TheSummoner]

Somebody around here *did* post a random conversation between two random adventurers that would have all those phrases in it - I'll link to it if I find it again!

Edit: Here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7518561&postcount=335)!

Eh, don't you think thats a bit farfetched? I mean... its kinda nonsensical... The first guy is dieing of thirst and from the heat, why the hell would the second one give him a sapphire?

And even if there was a more... lets say natural... scenerio where those phrases would be said, what are the chances that it would happen at a specific spot in the world's biggest desert. 1 in a million or less...

[Conuly]

Eh, don't you think thats a bit farfetched? I mean... its kinda nonsensical... The first guy is dieing of thirst and from the heat, why the hell would the second one give him a sapphire?

And even if there was a more... lets say natural... scenerio where those phrases would be said, what are the chances that it would happen at a specific spot in the world's biggest desert. 1 in a million or less...

You mean a million to one chance? AKA "A sure thing"?

[TheSummoner]

Heh, I walked right into that one...

[Conuly]

Heh, I walked right into that one...

Yeah, yeah, you kinda did. In fairness, that scenario doesn't seem to have happened yet - but it could have! :smallwink:

[J.J.J-H-Schmidt]

girard did his best to set that specific trap with specific keywords for that specific person in a specifically difficult place for an innocet bystandard to activate... it might not have been the "right" thing to do, but all the safe guards were there to keep the wrong people from being hurt. that seems like he was doing everything he could to go about his personal vendetta the "right" way. and untill we know what exactly happened to kraagor then noone has the "right" to cast blame on girard.

[HandofShadows]

girard did his best to set that specific trap with specific keywords for that specific person in a specifically difficult place for an innocet bystandard to activate... it might not have been the "right" thing to do, but all the safe guards were there to keep the wrong people from being hurt. that seems like he was doing everything he could to go about his personal vendetta the "right" way. and untill we know what exactly happened to kraagor then noone has the "right" to cast blame on girard.

If the trap was SO specific as to be set off for a specific person, then the Order of the Stick would not have been able to set it off, now would they? What Girard did was set up a bomb that could be activated by someone, anyone saying a few specific words. This activated the message where Girard specificaly states that "And Soon, just in case it IS you". He clearly knew that someone else could set off the trap and he didn't care one bit that innocent people (like the Order) would be killed. sm

[TheSummoner]

If the trap was SO specific as to be set off for a specific person, then the Order of the Stick would not have been able to set it off, now would they? What Girard did was set up a bomb that could be activated by someone, anyone saying a few specific words. This activated the message where Girard specificaly states that "And Soon, just in case it IS you". He clearly knew that someone else could set off the trap and he didn't care one bit that innocent people (like the Order) would be killed. sm

The Order was only able to set it off because they got those coordinates from Shojo, Soon's successor. I doubt Girard could've predicted Soon (or his successor) using hired work when hes got an army of paladins at his command.

[Kish]

I doubt Girard could've predicted Soon (or his successor) using hired work when hes got an army of paladins at his command.
Obviously Girard couldn't have. See "batting zero." By the current evidence, if Girard predicted sunny weather tomorrow, you should avoid getting caught without your umbrella.

This is why Girard shouldn't have based setting bombs on his lousy predictive ability.

[TheSummoner]

So very high and mighty... would you have predicted that a guy with hundreds (possibly more) of loyal soldiers would hire outside help?

[Kish]

I wouldn't leave a bomb in place for over a century based on a very specific and increasingly-insupportable prediction. Because I don't think I'm infalliable. Girard apparently does.

I get that you're very invested in Girard for some reason which I don't begin to fathom, but mind the borderline flames, btw.

[FujinAkari]

So very high and mighty... would you have predicted that a guy with hundreds (possibly more) of loyal soldiers would hire outside help?

Ah, but you're missing the point:

Girard's trap assumed that the guy with hundreds (possibly more) of loyal soldiers wouldn't be sending ANY OF THEM.

Why kill Paladins who had nothing to do with getting Kraegor sealed within the gate?

[SaintRidley]

I wouldn't leave a bomb in place for over a century based on a very specific and increasingly-insupportable prediction. Because I don't think I'm infalliable. Girard apparently does.



Question I don't think I've seen considered.

Yes, his position on Soon grew increasingly insupportable over time. Yes, it was incredibly specific, specific enough that odds of random innocents (rather than people working for the predicted guy [who Girard appears to have a big enough Grudge to consider a bad guy] or bad guys who have picked the brain of the predicted guy)* happening upon this spot and saying the right words is practically nil.

If the odds of someone you wouldn't want to hurt are that low, why bother removing it? Pretty much every option, to Girard's mind, counts as a bad guy**. Anyone who is bound to find it, in Girard's mind, is a bad guy. So why disarm something that is bound to hit a bad guy and is so astronomically unlikely to hit an innocent?

*I am working off the idea that Girard's brain is, similar to V's assessment of Belkar's same organ, only capable of processing people via two categories: Bad Guys (including actual bad guys and anyone who ever had anything to do with Soon outside the other Scribbles) and Good Guys (Himself, other Scribbles beside Soon, maybe innocents).

**Girard would probably look at the Order's cooperation with the Sapphire Guard as enough to lump them in with the Sapphire Guard and thus consider them bad guys.



Please note that I am asking more out of curiosity as to what your answer is than any care to defend Girard on this. The idea merely occurred to me and aroused my curiosity.

[Kish]

Question I don't think I've seen considered.

Yes, his position on Soon grew increasingly insupportable over time. Yes, it was incredibly specific, specific enough that odds of random innocents (rather than people working for the predicted guy [who Girard appears to have a big enough Grudge to consider a bad guy] or bad guys who have picked the brain of the predicted guy)* happening upon this spot and saying the right words is practically nil.

Actually, I was referring to the fact that the only way for setting the trap and gloating about Serini knowing the right coordinates to be the right thing to do would be
1) Soon comes to the coordinates
2) Because Soon plans to seize the Gate
3) But Soon lacks either the will or the ability to torture Serini for the coordinates she has.

If you assume that anyone who could set off the trap is someone who already knows that Serini has the coordinates and whose life is valueless, then, yes, Girard was not wrong to leave the trap there. This is why I expanded my original assessment of him, from "idiot" to "idiot and/or monster."

I still think he's probably an idiot, and not a monster. He seems in his rant to be quite focused on "It's Soon there to seize my gate," and him treating any other possibility as nonexistent is a simple explanation that fits all the facts. He was, by his own word, willing to bet ten thousand gold on Soon doing so within twelve weeks. This explanation requires him to be profoundly stupid, but it doesn't require anything else, and there is no reason not to think he's profoundly stupid (probably with a side of enough amorality to shore up any weaknesses in his stupidity).

Any explanation that doesn't make Girard an idiot or a monster or both requires setting the bomb to have been the right thing to do. It requires somehow getting rid of the manifest incorrectness of his prediction of Soon's behavior. It requires disregarding the fact that the Order of the Scribble weren't required, or supposed, to stay away from each other if their gates were destroyed. It requires ignoring the fact that if breaking the no-contact oath were a bombing-worthy offense, the only member of the Order of the Scribble not to get bombed would be Soon. And it seems to be massively helped by treating Girard's claimed "90%" statistic as Word of God, and filling in most of the other 10%, which not even Girard did, with villains--apparently deaf villains who can't hear about Serini having the right coordinates.

(Looking over this, I observed that the tone might be taken to indicate that I think SaintRidley is defending Girard. That's not the case; I'm just explaining my reasoning with regard to Girard.)

[SaintRidley]

Much agreed on the idiocy.

Thank you for answering.

[HandofShadows]

Ah, but you're missing the point:

Girard's trap assumed that the guy with hundreds (possibly more) of loyal soldiers wouldn't be sending ANY OF THEM.

Why kill Paladins who had nothing to do with getting Kraegor sealed within the gate?

Acually the message makes it clear that Girard thought that Soon would send someone and set the bomb for them. Soon arriving at the Gate and setting off the bomb was something Girard wanted to happen. He was quite happy to kill innocent people on the chance he might kill Soon.
Why kill people that had nothing to do with Kraegor getting killed? Girard clearly disliked Lawfull people and didn't like the Gods either (Lawfull Paladins that worship the Gods). He seems to have been on the extream end of the Chaotic scale and thought that killing people so lawfull was a good thing.

[Shatteredtower]

Obviously Girard couldn't have.

That is because the possibility was ridiculously far-fetched. It doesn't matter that it's only possible because someone went against Soon's wishes. The results are still a consequence of his actions, or failure to act.

Had Shojo been all Miko feared, how well did Soon prepare Girard for the possibility? Not at all. Good thing he's paranoid.

[TheSummoner]

Acually the message makes it clear that Girard thought that Soon would send someone and set the bomb for them. Soon arriving at the Gate and setting off the bomb was something Girard wanted to happen. He was quite happy to kill innocent people on the chance he might kill Soon.
Why kill people that had nothing to do with Kraegor getting killed? Girard clearly disliked Lawfull people and didn't like the Gods either (Lawfull Paladins that worship the Gods). He seems to have been on the extream end of the Chaotic scale and thought that killing people so lawfull was a good thing.

Or maybe, and I know this is crazy, but just hear me out... Maybe he had no problem with the possibility that his gate would kill Soon's paladins instead of Soon himself because they were Soon's followers. Because for them to be there at all, it would be on Soon's orders. Because any action they take involving the gate would be on Soon's orders.

I know that that theory is completly insane, but which do you really think is more likely... That, or Girard is on some sort of crusade against the lawful?

[Optimystik]

If the odds of someone you wouldn't want to hurt are that low, why bother removing it? Pretty much every option, to Girard's mind, counts as a bad guy**. Anyone who is bound to find it, in Girard's mind, is a bad guy. So why disarm something that is bound to hit a bad guy and is so astronomically unlikely to hit an innocent?

Ah, but you've run headlong into another problem with this question. Rather than ask "why disarm it?" you should instead be asking "Why is it so weak" and "why mention Serini at all?"

1) If ROY could have survived such a bomb, then Soon (with his epic level saving throws and Divine Grace) could easily have done so as well. If Girard can't make a bomb strong enough to take out either his rival, or indeed anything that would be a REAL threat to the Gate, he's better off leaving nothing at all. Unless he really WAS hoping he could wipe out a handful of low-level paladins, which would make him a monster.

2) Sending anyone who survived that bomb Serini's way makes him both an idiot and a monster. An idiot, for not simply shutting off the recording; a monster, for being so heedless of Serini's welfare (or that of her descendants/estate/etc.) that he would so needlessly expose her to having, as Kish put it so eloquently, "her toenails pulled."

Hence, Girard must either be an idiot, a monster, or both.

[TheSummoner]

Ah, but you've run headlong into another problem with this question. Rather than ask "why disarm it?" you should instead be asking "Why is it so weak" and "why mention Serini at all?"

1) If ROY could have survived such a bomb, then Soon (with his epic level saving throws and Divine Grace) could easily have done so as well. If Girard can't make a bomb strong enough to take out either his rival, or indeed anything that would be a REAL threat to the Gate, he's better off leaving nothing at all. Unless he really WAS hoping he could wipe out a handful of low-level paladins, which would make him a monster.

I've actually got a theory on that one, but thanks to my lack of knowledge of D&D and the possibility of houseruling, I'm not sure how sound it is.

Is it possible that magic decays over time? That the bomb, having been sitting there for decades, is weaker now than it was when originally cast? If so, it would be a fitting explanation for how the Order survived and why Girard thought it would be powerful enough to kill Soon.


2) Sending anyone who survived that bomb Serini's way makes him both an idiot and a monster. An idiot, for not simply shutting off the recording; a monster, for being so heedless of Serini's welfare (or that of her descendants/estate/etc.) that he would so needlessly expose her to having, as Kish put it so eloquently, "her toenails pulled."

Hence, Girard must either be an idiot, a monster, or both.

Definatly a stupid move on his part. The only real hope for that one is some sort of as-of-now unknown agreement between the two of them... some sort of plan... seems like a bit of a stretch though.

[Aldrakan]

I
Is it possible that magic decays over time? That the bomb, having been sitting there for decades, is weaker now than it was when originally cast? If so, it would be a fitting explanation for how the Order survived and why Girard thought it would be powerful enough to kill Soon.


Well if that's true then Girard's method was unutterably moronic and he's trusting the fate of the world to a defense that will decay the minute he's not around to maintain it.

So I'd hope not, or Girard makes Belkar look like a genius.

[Optimystik]

Spells fail in OotS - like the prophylactic spell Eugene and Sara used, resulting in Roy.

Though it is unclear what caused it to fail, so time may not have been a factor.

But as Aldrakan pointed out, depending on a spell that can decay in strength as a defensive measure is just as foolish as making it too weak to begin with, particularly if the part of the spell that gives the enemy a lead is still intact.

[Shatteredtower]

Hence, Girard must either be an idiot, a monster, or both.

Still neither. The explosion was the magical equivalent of the... expressive digit. The message was clear, but there were two parts: "Get lost," and " If you still need to get ahold of me, see Serini."

As for the idea that the message sets Serini up to be tortured, that's ridiculous on two counts. The first is because she was someone both respected, and both knew it. On the off chance that wouldn't stop Soon or one that wrested the information from him, he'd be going after her for her gate anyway. Under the circumstances, torture would just mean she'd live longer.

Short version: Girard is smarter than you've imagined, and monstrosity has yet to be demonstrated.

[Shale]

Uh, the message was "prepare to die."

[Shatteredtower]

Uh, the message was "prepare to die."

And if it had been, "Go to hell," would you automatically assume it would be followed by Plane Shift?

"Drop dead," is a figurative sentiment, and Girard stated such in a particularly figurative fashion.

[Shale]

He said he was angry that Soon wasn't dead, that he was going to fix that, and that "Soon" was going to meet his gods in person shortly.

That's not figurative. Other than the fact that Roy survived the blast (Heroes? Surviving lethal explosions for no good reason?! IMPOSSIBLE! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0119.html)), what is there to imply that it was?

[Shatteredtower]

He said he was angry that Soon wasn't dead, that he was going to fix that, and that "Soon" was going to meet his gods in person shortly.

That's not figurative.

Since the effect didn't come close to killing Roy, there's no way it could have killed Soon. Girard would know that sure as V knew Belkar would survive explosive runes.

Therefore, it was a figurative statement, albeit made with very emphatic punctuation.

[Shale]

Thank you for ignoring me when I referred to exactly that point.


(Heroes? Surviving lethal explosions for no good reason?! IMPOSSIBLE! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0119.html))

[Aldrakan]

And if it had been, "Go to hell," would you automatically assume it would be followed by Plane Shift?


Actually this is more like someone said "Go to Hell". And then it was immediately followed by a Plane Shift. Just because you make your saving throw does that mean it clearly wasn't supposed to send you to Hell?

[SaintRidley]

Short version: Girard is smarter than you've imagined


Short message: Girard's defence relies on secrecy, lies, and illusion. He told the truth to Serini, violating and compromising one of his principal means of defence. Q.E.D. Girard is an idiot.

[Peregrinus]

Spells fail in OotS - like the prophylactic spell Eugene and Sara used, resulting in Roy.

Spell in DnD don't fade, they merely end. There are certain time limits on spell usually, ranging from months, weeks, days, hours, minutes and even 6 second intervals (rounds). Most of these can simply be made permanent with another spell, well, for the most part, and that permanency really is, there is no "fading over time," they stay unless dispelled. There is another type of spell that can last indefinitely, they last so long as the caster maintains concentration. Most illusions fall into the category of spells that can be made permanent.

My personal theory on the above quote is that the spell referenced didn't really fail, it ended. Probably because Eugene mistimed something, and would be to proud to admit that he screwed up on the timing. Either that or he was so sufficiently distracted that he forgot to renew it when he thought he did... or the spell had a duration of concentration and he lost concentration for some unimaginable reason. :smallbiggrin:

[Shatteredtower]

Thank you for ignoring me when I referred to exactly that point.

Since this system won't let me read the address of a link before I click it, you're just going to have to accept it.

Besides, your point was that Girard was trying to kill Soon -- with a spell that may as well have been a foam baton, for all the good it could do. The saving throw result is academic -- Soon or anyone he'd sent to get the message would have survived in any event.

SaintRidley, you get failing marks on your proof. Choosing to allow for emergency backup from someone you trust, combined with an added layer of security against a teammate you don't, is not a defining trait of idiocy, no matter what your main line of defense is. To date, every gate's defense has acknowledged the need for backup support in case the main system fails.

Besides, encoded information still counts as hidden. It took Xykon 24 years to decipher the second gate's location, according to SoD, and luck was how he knew to look for it

[Shale]

It's a link to Roy and Elan not being injured AT ALL when they're caught in the blast of an exploding mountain.

Other things OOTSers have survived with no explanation include multiple point-blank Meteor Swarms (Vaarsuvius and O-Chul), enough damage to incapacitate a member of a more durable class who also has better saves (Vaarsuvius again, fighting Samantha; she took down V and Haley with the same spells but neither one died), being punched hard enough to fly through a solid rock wall, plus the associated fall from a height of at least 40 feet or so, plus having a full-grown warhorse fall on you from the same height (Miko).

Edit: Also, right-click, "copy link location," paste into address bar, or just ASK, instead of pretending I never said anything.

[slayerx]

Since the effect didn't come close to killing Roy, there's no way it could have killed Soon. Girard would know that sure as V knew Belkar would survive explosive runes.

Therefore, it was a figurative statement, albeit made with very emphatic punctuation.

One thing you are not opening yourself to the possibility of is the simple concept that the spell he used was the most powerful one he could muster and that he COULDN'T do better... he was an illusionist who went into battle duel wielding swords; does he sound like the type of mage that could seriously nuke, like V does? Hell if i had to guess i'd say most of his spells were dedicated for support, rather than offense... That spell he armed as a booby trap could have been like a 7th level spell, because he does not have destructive 8th or 9th level spells... hell for all we know he might have chosen necromancy and evocation as his banned schools, which would seriously limit him in destructive spells like this... Girard didn't have a spell strong enough to kill Soon for cetain in just one hit, and thus could have been hoping for a high roll... The fact that roy survived could be shear dumb luck, as in either he made his saves or the damage for the spell rolled low

not to mention we still have to see how the others have faired

[Shatteredtower]

One thing you are not opening yourself to the possibility of is the simple concept that the spell he used was the most powerful one he could muster and that he COULDN'T do better...

It wasn't worth considering. You may as well be arguing that Girard was hoping for a cream pie to do the work of a handgun, rather than admit that an attack one knows won't kill its target wasn't intended to do so.

Shale, thank you, but I know how to preview a link. This system does not allow that option. I could have asked, had it seemed relevant. As it turns out, it wasn't.

As I've noted before, this is nothing more than another case of hitting Belkar in the face with exploding runes -- save that Belkar missed out for once. Being completely unscathed because you were outside of the blast radius is a different matter entirely, as it relates to the unrealistic range of such explosions, rather than the harm they do.

[Shale]

I thought you meant showing the link when you moused over it. No option for it at all? That's weird.

Anyway, Roy and Elan weren't outside the blast. They were caught in it, as evidenced by the fact that it sent them flying (much like Girard's trap sent Roy flying). They just didn't take damage because, hey, they're heroes, and heroes don't die in giant explosions. It's not dramatic enough. Besides, like I said, it's hardly the only time a character has survived damage that should clearly have killed them not because it was non-lethal but because plot takes over. What makes this any different?

[Shatteredtower]

I thought you meant showing the link when you moused over it. No option for it at all? That's weird.

Yes. Slightly more frustrating than trying to type on it too.

We don't see that explosion the same way. Again, I see it as another expression of V's favorite spell, which adds to my enjoyment of that last line of panels.

[Renegade Paladin]

Shale, thank you, but I know how to preview a link. This system does not allow that option. I could have asked, had it seemed relevant. As it turns out, it wasn't.


I thought you meant showing the link when you moused over it. No option for it at all? That's weird.
It's weird because it's a completely false statement; regardless of his system, pressing the quote button (which we know he did, since he quoted the post) will show him the contents of the post, including the link. Claiming that he had no way to preview it is a transparent lie. Regardless, fearing links posted on here is ludicrous anyway; someone who posted something actually harmful would be swiftly banned.

In any case, Girard was not speaking in any way that could be considered figurative. It was not a general statement of "go to hell," "choke on your katana and die," or anything of that nature; it was a specific threat. He said he was going to remedy the error of Soon not being dead. That's not figurative language. Which doesn't necessarily mean that the spell itself was intended to be lethal; since it also notifies Girard, he could have intended to show up to kill Soon himself after the bomb had softened him up a bit. But he clearly intended for Soon to die, even if the single spell wasn't the only intended means of killing him.

[slayerx]

It wasn't worth considering. You may as well be arguing that Girard was hoping for a cream pie to do the work of a handgun, rather than admit that an attack one knows won't kill its target wasn't intended to do so.


Girard was an illusionist tracker, with only 2 levels in ranger. Even if we assume he took feats to help, would you think its smart for a wizard to enter melee duelwielding swords? frankly, i might say Girard's character build might not be worth considering

Furthermore there is a difference between "knows won't kill its target" and "knows there's a chance of failure, but it's better than doing nothing"

[Optimystik]

Still neither. The explosion was the magical equivalent of the... expressive digit. The message was clear, but there were two parts: "Get lost," and " If you still need to get ahold of me, see Serini."

He did not say "Get lost" he said "I'm going to kill you now." End of story. If he HAD said "get lost" I'd have been much more on board with him.

By Girard's logic, anyone showing up at his illusion would be an enemy, and there was only a 10% chance it wouldn't be one particular enemy. So why volunteer information?


As for the idea that the message sets Serini up to be tortured, that's ridiculous on two counts. The first is because she was someone both respected, and both knew it. On the off chance that wouldn't stop Soon or one that wrested the information from him, he'd be going after her for her gate anyway. Under the circumstances, torture would just mean she'd live longer.

1) The fact that they both respected her is no reason for them to expose her to unnecessary harm. Simply put, Girard was thoughtless about her welfare when recording his "expressive digit." The gates' primary defense was obscurity - the various other defenses in place on them were the last resort, not the first.

2) You're assuming that anyone going after Girard's gate would automatically know about Serini's. It is possible for someone - even a GOD - to only be aware of one gate. Case in point, Redcloak. So needlessly handing out information is idiotic.


Short version: Girard is smarter than you've imagined, and monstrosity has yet to be demonstrated.

Hardly on both counts.

[Milandros]

Since the effect didn't come close to killing Roy, there's no way it could have killed Soon. Girard would know that sure as V knew Belkar would survive explosive runes.

Therefore, it was a figurative statement, albeit made with very emphatic punctuation.

Note that Roy is walking away in disgust three panels before the explosion. He could well have been outside the epicenter; if he took half damage, save for a quarter, and a quarter damage hurt him that badly, then the trap could well have been truly deadly.

Until we see what happened to the others, we won't know; however, it doesn't look like Girard is joking at all. And even if Soon could have withstood it, his paladin companions certainly couldn't.

[Jackson]

It's hard to tell how powerful the explosion was, until we see more of the aftermath. It's also hard to tell how much damage was done to Roy - based on the damage drawn onto him, it may or may not have come close to killing him. That's a fairly heavily damaged look, in any case.

That said, it's a fairly safe assumption that anything Roy survived, Soon could survive as well. I'm just quibbling over how much damage Roy took, as if it was high, and if it was reduced because he had already started walking away, it might not be properly indicative of how powerful the spell is - or indicative only in that, despite the mitigating factors, Roy nevertheless took a good deal of damage.

Beyond that: 'drop dead' is a figurative expression. But if you say 'drop dead' and then shoot somebody, is it still figurative because the gun was a .22 and the gunshots turned out to be non-lethal? Nothing about the situation (phrasing, facial expression, size of the imminent explosion) makes it seem as though Girard wasn't trying to kill Soon, except for the fact that the bomb failed to kill Roy.

So, if there are reasonable explanations as to why the bomb might fail to kill Roy despite being powerful enough to kill Soon, it's still a strong possibility that Girard was being serious. If there aren't reasonably explanations as to why the bomb might fail to kill Roy despite being powerful enough to kill Soon, then we should be discussing why Girard would bother to leave such an explosion there.

Since it's explicitly for Soon, and accompanied by a (judging by the expression on his face) sincerely hateful message for him, I'm not really convinced by any of the claims on that point I've heard so far. I don't have one to add, either; I want to get a little more information before I can gauge what the intent would be.

Also, the joke in the last panel refers to the times (such as at the Inn) when Belkar caused accidental explosions, rather than the exploding runes running gag. Belkar's not looking wistfully back on the days of yesteryear when V blew him up every chance he got; he's looking back fondly at the explosions and burnt down villages for which he's been directly responsible over the course of the comic's run.

[cha0s4a11]

Just tossing a couple ideas out there:

1) Perhaps the blast wasn't meant to kill Soon. Maybe there was a side bet on whether Girard could get Soon to piss his pants or not. Maybe the bomb was designed to take away a fraction of HP and send people flying a good distance.

2) Are we really sure that Girard gave the real location of his gate to Serini? He's given one person a fake location, why not another?

[Optimystik]

Just tossing a couple ideas out there:

1) Perhaps the blast wasn't meant to kill Soon. Maybe there was a side bet on whether Girard could get Soon to piss his pants or not. Maybe the bomb was designed to take away a fraction of HP and send people flying a good distance.

He also targeted Soon's paladin followers with it; given the amount of damage Roy sustained, they would have either been killed or seriously injured in the middle of the desert.

(and let's not speculate on what would have happened to Roy himself had there been no sand-flumph to land on.)


2) Are we really sure that Girard gave the real location of his gate to Serini? He's given one person a fake location, why not another?

Whether Serini has the real coordinates herself or not, it's still another place to start looking. If you're a BBEG and only knew about Girard's and Soon's Gates, your next thought immediately upon surviving is "Who's Serini?"

Even the Dark One - a god - only knew about one gate. Volunteering information in such circumstances is the height of buffoonery, negligence, or malice.

[Quieteus]

Here's my two cents.

The gate is right where the spell is supposed to be.

Girard hates Soon. Okay. Makes sense. But relying on 'bad intel' to Soon is pretty flaky that Soon couldn't have found some other way to find the real location. That, and if another party should come like Xylon or the Order, once they find the fake location then they start looking for the real one. After all, the party survived the boom, Soon might have, or his flakies. So once Soon or others find out the "Truth" they start wasting time looking for alternates because they "Know" the original was a fake.

So gullible Soon and Paladins go off. Gate is safe and sound in the last place anyone would look again.

So where is the gate? Well girard knows that if people come looking they're going to use True sight, so invisibility is useless, and he can't control the desert environment so burying it would be risque. Girard is a lot like Soon. He wants to be in control, he's just less honest about it. People are looking for something real that's been hidden by an illusion.

What they need to look for is an illusion. If Girard was so epic an illusionist then he could craft an illusion that would be a virtual demiplane. As long as you believed in the illusion, you could move in it and interact with it. All it would take is an illusion spell... and for all we know Illusion might have been Dorukon's prohibited school. You could hide the gate inside an illusionary city for that matter... and everyone who 'stumbled' across it would think that they were just mad with desert fatigue.

Thoughts?

[Wymmerdann]

Besides, your point was that Girard was trying to kill Soon -- with a spell that may as well have been a foam baton, for all the good it could do. The saving throw result is academic -- Soon or anyone he'd sent to get the message would have survived in any event.
Unless Soon had sent two dozen low level Paladins to investigate...
Others have already pointed out that as Roy took substantial damage and was well away from the epicentre of the blast, this attack was hardly a 'foam baton'.

You assume that simply because the blast did not kill Roy, Girard could not possibly have meant to kill Soon, which ignores the clear language of Girard's threat, as well as the various rational exoplanations for this dissonance that do not exculpate Girard. I also think your understanding of figurative language is flawed, as Girard was clear and explicit in his threat to Soon before the attack in a way which could reasonabely be expected to cause apprehension of harm. (I use this language because that is pretty much the legal definition of "threat" in Australian Torts Law, which includes allowances for figurative or conditional threats).




Besides, encoded information still counts as hidden. It took Xykon 24 years to decipher the second gate's location, according to SoD, and luck was how he knew to look for it
The strongest defence his gate had as of 694 was that no-one knew the correct location except Girard. The fact that the halfling thief knew to encode it (and considering it took an idiot like Xykon 24 hours to crack it, it may as well have been binary sudoku) does nothing to redeem Girard for his idiocy.

Assuming that the worst Soon did was fail to save Kraagor (or indeed order the spell that caused his presumed death), Girard's trap is underserved and his actions in defending the gate are idioticand indeed monstrous.

[Shatteredtower]

He also targeted Soon's paladin followers with it; given the amount of damage Roy sustained, they would have either been killed or seriously injured in the middle of the desert.

Until you can tell me exactly how many hit points of damage Roy sustained, you cannot make this claim. At best, you can describe it as a humorous amount.


Whether Serini has the real coordinates herself or not, it's still another place to start looking.

Assuming you had any clue how to trigger the message. Roy got lucky in this regard, though I'm not sure you could call it good luck.


If you're a BBEG and only knew about Girard's and Soon's Gates, your next thought immediately upon surviving is "Who's Serini?"

And if you're Roy (or Soon, assuming he came with good cause), you're no longer left with absolutely no clue how to proceed. Your odds of getting this far as at least slightly more likely than those for the BBEG.

Again, you're underestimating Girard.

[Shatteredtower]

Unless Soon had sent two dozen low level Paladins to investigate...

You may as well suggest he'd send a piece of cheese. If it's serious enough for Soon to break his oath, the alternative you suggest is implausible.


Others have already pointed out that as Roy took substantial damage and was well away from the epicentre of the blast, this attack was hardly a 'foam baton'.

Substantial? Pft. The amount of damage done was... humorous. That's it, making it much more accurate to compare it to a foam baton than claim it was "substantial".


You assume that simply because the blast did not kill Roy, Girard could not possibly have meant to kill Soon...

No. It is a fact that an explosion that was clearly not a threat to Roy could not have been a threat to Soon.


...which ignores the clear language of Girard's threat...

No, it merely reads it accurately, in a manner consistent with the results.

I'm also well aware of what constitutes a threat under the terms of commonwealth law, as well as in many parts of the United States. It is of no relevance to this situation.


The strongest defence his gate had as of 694 was that no-one knew the correct location except Girard.

This is also it's main weakness. If something does go wrong and Girard is the only one that knows about it, no one would be able to correct the situation if Girard is incapacitated.


The fact that the halfling thief knew to encode it (and considering it took an idiot like Xykon 24 hours to crack it...

Which explains why it took 27 years to track down the second gate.

[Optimystik]

Until you can tell me exactly how many hit points of damage Roy sustained, you cannot make this claim. At best, you can describe it as a humorous amount.

He's covered in battle damage marks. The last time we saw him look like that... yeah. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html)

I mean, maybe you could argue that the explosion painted him with red lines, but I don't quite buy it.


Assuming you had any clue how to trigger the message. Roy got lucky in this regard, though I'm not sure you could call it good luck.

And if you're Roy (or Soon, assuming he came with good cause), you're no longer left with absolutely no clue how to proceed. Your odds of getting this far as at least slightly more likely than those for the BBEG.

Again, you're underestimating Girard.

That some good came of this for Roy makes it no less irresponsible. Girard's mission was to hide the gate from everyone, not to make it accessible to the chosen Bald Warrior and his Companions.

Leaving visitors lucky enough to trigger the image with "no clue how to proceed" is exactly what he should have been aiming for.

Underestimating? I've rated him too high by half.

[Snails]

It is a fact that an explosion that was clearly not a threat to Roy could not have been a threat to Soon.

Unsubstantiated speculation.

We do not know that the explosion was zero or close to zero threat to Roy. You are making that up.

We do not know that every explosion Roy could ever survive could never possibly kill Soon. You are making that up, too.

If you have to make stuff up to support your inkling*, then you are on very weak ground.

* It would not exactly be a shock to anyone if we find out Girard understood the explosion was unlikely to kill Soon. But so far we have plenty of direct and indirect evidence that Girard was both doing his best and hoping for a revenge killing.

[factotum]

Unsubstantiated speculation.

We do not know that the explosion was zero or close to zero threat to Roy. You are making that up.

We do not know that every explosion Roy could ever survive could never possibly kill Soon. You are making that up, too.


Soon is an epic-level paladin. Roy is a fighter who's somewhere around 13th level. Unless Roy has O-Chul levels of Constitution he isn't likely to have as many hit points as Soon and is therefore more likely to get killed in the blast than Soon would be.

The real test will come when we see if Haley and Elan survived the explosion--they're both considerably squishier than Roy and were also closer to the epicentre of the blast. If they survived it, the chances of Soon *not* surviving it drop so low as to be irrelevant.

[Shale]

Soon was much, much older than Roy when the Order of the Scribble split up. Age penalties to Con are a bitch, and we have no proof that his Con was particularly good in the first place. Plus the part where Roy wasn't at the center of the explosion.

[TheSummoner]

Soon was much, much older than Roy when the Order of the Scribble split up. Age penalties to Con are a bitch, and we have no proof that his Con was particularly good in the first place. Plus the part where Roy wasn't at the center of the explosion.

Redcloak sure had trouble hurting him... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html)

"My negative energy didn't affect him directly-he probably has way too many Hit Dice-but he DID seem to be stunned when his lackeys were poofed"

Maybe the whole "ghost" "positive energy spirit" thing had something to do with it... I wouldn't know (never played...) but if thats not it, its a pretty clear indication he had a good amount of health.

[Porthos]

Redcloak sure had trouble hurting him... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html)

"My negative energy didn't affect him directly-he probably has way too many Hit Dice-but he DID seem to be stunned when his lackeys were poofed"

Maybe the whole "ghost" "positive energy spirit" thing had something to do with it... I wouldn't know (never played...) but if thats not it, its a pretty clear indication he had a good amount of health.

Well, first off, Redcloak was talking about Turning Undead, and what one can do with that is limited by HD. Since Soon was presumably Epic, that just means that he had lots and lots of HD.

As to health tho, it really doesn't factor into the equation. Generally speaking when one becomes an undead/positive-energy-thingy-whose-name-I can't-recall, the Constitution score of a character goes away, and is replaced by a D12 HD. This would also do away with any CON penalties due to age since Soon wasn't old anymore.

So while Redcloak would have trouble turning/destroying Soon thanks to his Hit Dice, it doesn't neccessarily follow that Soon had lots of Hit Points when he died (or even when he travelled with Girard), thanks to the brutal CON loss that occurs as characters age.

[Somewhere]

I say "You should've died back then. I will fix that." There's a click. Boom; something explodes by you, as you start to walk away. You end up surviving.

Was I trying to kill you?

Edit: Right, forgot to include distance. Let's say the explosion sent you flying.... ~30 meters.

[Snails]

Soon is an epic-level paladin. Roy is a fighter who's somewhere around 13th level. Unless Roy has O-Chul levels of Constitution he isn't likely to have as many hit points as Soon and is therefore more likely to get killed in the blast than Soon would be.

No one seriously disputes "more likely"*. But some people are making up facts along the lines of "more likely = 100.000%". They are doing so only because the foundation of their arguments is so palpably weak.

* There are far from impossible scenarios under which Roy does have more hit points than Soon, but those are rather weak and speculative, absent supporting evidence.

[Trixie]

Soon was much, much older than Roy when the Order of the Scribble split up. Age penalties to Con are a bitch, and we have no proof that his Con was particularly good in the first place. Plus the part where Roy wasn't at the center of the explosion.

And you completely forgot the part where Girard says it was less than 10 weeks since they parted. No aging penalties, though arguably no epic level, either.

Still, if you suggest seriously unoptimized Roy had more HP and better saves than Soon, well... you're making things up far more than opposing side ever did.

[Shale]

That's why I said "when the Order of the Scribble split up." Aging penalties were already in effect when Soon and Girard had their falling-out.

Do the math. Soon first set out on his quest 66 years ago. Later, he returns to Azure City and establishes the Sapphire Guard, later still, he transfers command of the Guard to Shojo's father because he's too old to lead them effectively. He dies, of causes implied to be old age, shortly afterward.

The thing is, when Soon gives up his post as commander of the paladins, Shojo is still a child (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html). It can't have been very long since the quest began, because Shojo was over 70 in the modern day, 66 years later, and hadn't even hit mid-adolescence yet when Soon got too old to fight. The only way to fit the numbers together is for Soon to have already been Old, probably knocking on the door to Venerable, when the party split.

[ziratha]

I think girard is perfectly right in what he did regarding hiding the gate. Maybe his rant was misguided, and he managed to miss with the explosion, but that was by far the least likely thing to happen.

He knew his fellow party members better than we do and better understood who was likely to break the rules they had set up. If he says that one particular party member was likely to betray the others, he's probably right.

Another point is that whatever is going on with what is inside the snarl is unknown to us. V's familiar saw something quite unexpected inside the rift. Maybe girard is in the know of what's really going on and has taken this information into account. Maybe the gates are really an immense sort of power, or the ability to reshape the world. We simply don't know.

[Skaven]

I think girard is perfectly right in what he did regarding hiding the gate. Maybe his rant was misguided, and he managed to miss with the explosion, but that was by far the least likely thing to happen.

He knew his fellow party members better than we do and better understood who was likely to break the rules they had set up. If he says that one particular party member was likely to betray the others, he's probably right.


Indeed.

He's already seen Soon betray one member of their party. And it wasnt merely killing: he had that member unmade, no afterlife, no heaven.. nothing. Its not a far leap to think of him betraying another.

[Trixie]

That's why I said "when the Order of the Scribble split up." Aging penalties were already in effect when Soon and Girard had their falling-out.

Do the math. Soon first set out on his quest 66 years ago. Later, he returns to Azure City and establishes the Sapphire Guard, later still, he transfers command of the Guard to Shojo's father because he's too old to lead them effectively. He dies, of causes implied to be old age, shortly afterward.

The thing is, when Soon gives up his post as commander of the paladins, Shojo is still a child (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html). It can't have been very long since the quest began, because Shojo was over 70 in the modern day, 66 years later, and hadn't even hit mid-adolescence yet when Soon got too old to fight. The only way to fit the numbers together is for Soon to have already been Old, probably knocking on the door to Venerable, when the party split.

You do the math. You shot yourself in the foot with this link - compare Soon when they were standing with blades drawn to the Soon when they begin their Gate-quest. No difference?

Oh.

Now, compare him to Soon that gives command to Shojo's father - now he has white hair and frail build, indicating old age. All this proves only that some time passed between falling out, and passing of command, during which time he progressed from Adult to Old/Venerable (and during which time crusades mentioned in panel above happen).

In other words, he was adult, not old, when they had this dispute. Notice how young Girard look in this illusion. Age penalties, indeed :smallamused:

And people trying to whitewash Soon using all possible methods say people simply pointing at what actual comic plainly states try to invent thing to defend Girard. Heh.


He also targeted Soon's paladin followers with it; given the amount of damage Roy sustained, they would have either been killed or seriously injured in the middle of the desert.

Paladins. Lot of HP. Saves. Lay on Hands. The entire Cure X Wounds line of spells. Allied Clerics.

Shall I continue? :smallamused:


Unless Soon had sent two dozen low level Paladins to investigate...

Yes, because that's what you do when the fate of world hangs in the balance. Especially to person you hate, when you can simply ask colleague (or four) of this person to pass the word.

Oh, and 'sending' (plus bajillion spells like it) apparently doesn't exist in the D&D version you're playing. :smallsigh:


The strongest defence his gate had as of 694 was that no-one knew the correct location except Girard. The fact that the halfling thief knew to encode it (and considering it took an idiot like Xykon 24 hours to crack it, it may as well have been binary sudoku) does nothing to redeem Girard for his idiocy.

Yes, epic Lich with all mental stats well above >16 (and possibly >22, if he had mediocre 12 in them, originally) is idiot. And the code which he broke in 24 hours protected the gates from him for 24 years.

Yeah, that's totally reasonable. :smallamused:


Assuming that the worst Soon did was fail to save Kraagor (or indeed order the spell that caused his presumed death), Girard's trap is underserved and his actions in defending the gate are idioticand indeed monstrous.

Yeah, and that's exactly why 4 out of 6 good aligned members of OotS agreed with Girard, not with Soon :smallamused:

It would have been 5 out of 6, but Kraagor was killed (unmade, even) thanks to our spotless little Paladin.

[Trixie]

That some good came of this for Roy makes it no less irresponsible. Girard's mission was to hide the gate from everyone, not to make it accessible to the chosen Bald Warrior and his Companions.

Leaving visitors lucky enough to trigger the image with "no clue how to proceed" is exactly what he should have been aiming for.

Underestimating? I've rated him too high by half.

Hidden? Yes, because that thing was "right in the coordinates given" and yet, V, Blackwing and Durkon failed to notice it for at least 10+ days. For all we know, it only armed when someone was staying for that place for a week.

And let's see, who could have stayed in random piece of desert other than guys shouting gibberish posted here as a defense for Soon?

A) Soon. He is back at Girard's gate in person, less than three moths that they have parted (or a little after that, as then was the spell cast). Why? He isn't alone, as he has been talking with someone - and too little time passed to expect there's any threat to the gates as they extinguished all possible ones just before that.

Why is he doing that? If there's any threat, getting one of the clerics the SG was full of, 'sending' to Dorukan/Lirian and asking him/her to send the word to the others, including "that dumb illusionist" would have been sensible. No, if he is here so soon, not alone, he is here exactly as Girard predicted - with a grudge, to take his Gate.

B) Someone sent by Soon (and Soon only, given the coordinates). Again, not alone, someone who haven't bothered to simply 'send'. If there's no description for sending, there's spell called 'speak with dead', and besides, Soon as quasi-undead was probably accessible at all times to any SG commander. Why?

They're here for two possible reasons - negative, which is (again) exactly as Girard predicted, or positive. If positive, they're to tell him something that for some reason cannot be told by normal means, and what can concern his gate only. Again, why? Someone is so powerful that he can stop all divine and arcane magic from working? And what exactly a few low-level paladin lackeys expect to be able to do against such person, or against anyone strong, after they give Girard such message? And where paladin is going to find True Seeing anyway? Last time we saw any paladin helpers (besides Miko) they were total morons that couldn't find their ass after being asked to sit on their hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html).

So, we can rule paladin lackeys out, as they would be of no use to epic caster if send to help (and Soon knew that) and besides, they would never been able to find this message, or go there, for the matter. After all, they were sent to Lirian's gate only after it was destroyed, and because it was destroyed, keeping their word. No one was sent to Girard then, and besides, he, too, knew it was destroyed; Girard was right in the sense if they broke their word, and showed in person without contacting him first, the gate itself could be the only object they were after - and the oath they swore specifically precluded this.

C) Someone evil, who was powerful enough to take the needed info from Soon (or paladin turned rogue = Blackguard). In both cases, honor of the paladin was broken, so Girard was (again) right, and besides, the chance that such person wouldn't know about all other gates (which is the only thing Girard haters can desperately cling to) is simply zero, as the lore contained all info on the same level of need to know. Thus, Girard can indeed freely mention Serini, as anyone standing there, on this wrong spot, will know about her. Even if he didn't, one name won't tell him anything. Let's note than the only person who was a threat to all gates since they were build - Xykon, wouldn't be there. Even if he were, he wouldn't learn anything new anyway.

Which means Girard was indeed smarter than all his detractors, and did nothing wrong, in my opinion. Plus, let's see: a) all good aligned OotSers agreed with Girard, not with the paladin, b) he considered possibility of paladins going blackguard/zealous, or c) possibility that 12 gods (or someone pretending to speak for them - Rat, maybe?) would order Soon to take the gates "for the greater good". In all cases, Girard was (once again) correct :smallamused:

And the assumption that telling Blackguard Soon/someone evil who got info from Soon who else knows = tortured Serini is simply... equal to hydrogen in certain proverb. It essentially states that Serini and Girard are idiots, who (once warned by this spell!) can't find each other faster (as they have been keeping contact) that Mr Evilguy. If he went after Serini after hearing this, he would find not one but two (or four, as only Soon was excluded from friendly talks) epic characters lying in wait to spring an ambush on Mr Badguy's ass. Indeed, idiotic move by Girard, and "toenails pulled" all right :smallamused:

And the last assumption - that giving Serini info was stupid - well, we don't know if the notebook contained all of it (someone pursuing info Girard give Serini might found himself a target of similar explosion, if certain code words that Serini wrote down in seemingly unrelated part of her diary were not spoken) - and besides, they were friends. Girard needed at least one person capable of tracking his gate down if something happened to him, of if others needed his help. To me, much more idiotic would be not telling anyone at all, then leaving gate to be taken, impossible to find by the other good guys. Only because he, for example, had heart attack. Or causing other gates to fall by his absence as no one would be able to contact him for that matter.

Oh, and telling her the real info changes nothing - any Mr Badguy capable of acquiring it wouldn't be standing in this spot. In fact, giving her different info was the best thing Girard might have done, as now Redcloak and co don't know which one is real - and will have to check both ones... while wading through epic illusions, instead of just staying in "real" spot until they find it :smallamused:


In this case, Girard's illusion comes across all the more smugly idiotic precisely because he has isolated himself from a band of powerful potential allies against a very great coming threat for reasons that turned out to be completely off-base.

And Girard needs them... why exactly? :smallconfused:

One epic character outweighs the entire order, hax-sword and all, especially when this character is a full caster. To make analogy, "the cavalry" as detractors here put it, is a few children way out of their caliber. He doesn't need them. They're not "powerful" at all, except when compared by commoners.

He did exactly what he should - made sure he doesn't have any holes in his defense. Good guys showing up here uninvited is so far less probable than a band of evildoers doing this that leaving holes for them only gives bad guys openings - no, that would have been idiotic thing to do.


I still think he's probably an idiot, and not a monster. He seems in his rant to be quite focused on "It's Soon there to seize my gate," and him treating any other possibility as nonexistent is a simple explanation that fits all the facts.

Maybe, just maybe it's because they just finished wiping out any potential threats to the Gates and Soon is the only epic character remaining that is both their enemy and has resources of a whole nation to attack them if he deems it necessary? :smallsigh:

After all, if Soon keeps his word, that particular trap can remain in this random piece of desert till the end of times, essentially harmless, hurting no one. In fact, ignoring the fact that people can change and become obsessed with power and not preparing for betrayal even from someone you once knew (when the stakes were this high) would have been dumb and irresponsible :smallsigh:


This would require a massive misreading of the personality of the target of that paranoia - Soon does not seem to have ever even come close to sending armies to conquer the gates, buwahahahaha.

You know, all the Girard's detractors keep repeating is something along this lines, when all Soon did in the comic was to appear in one panel, which give no indication of his personality - and those who knew best him hated him enough to unite to battle him, despite being good themselves.

Oh, and it's not like top command of SG we saw was unwilling to send an army - both Shojo and Miko would be pretty able and willing to send one, albeit for a very different reasons.

[slayerx]

Y'know one thing people do not seem to take into account... what if Roy's only alive by shear dumb luck!?
You jump to the conclusion that Soon would have survived the blast but don't account for the possibility that the damage roll for he explosion was low, or that Roy got a natural 20 on his saving throw resulting in half damage



B) Someone sent by Soon (and Soon only, given the coordinates). Again, not alone, someone who haven't bothered to simply 'send'. If there's no description for sending, there's spell called 'speak with dead', and besides, Soon as quasi-undead was probably accessible at all times to any SG commander. Why?

We do not know if Girard left himself open for a sending, and may have blocked it along with scrying... and Sending's only work with a good enough description of the recipent which the SG would not have once Soon was dead...

Speak with dead has SERIOUS limitations to communcation, and would be useless for exacting such detailed info

And the ghost of Soon was most likely NOT accessible as Hinjo would have likely consulted him if he were... Considering Soon did not manifest till the other paladin's were dead, there was likely strict limits to how he could work on the mortal plane; namely being the gate's last line of defense and ONLY that... not to mention that Girard did not know that Soon would remain as a ghost to guard his gate



They're here for two possible reasons - negative, which is (again) exactly as Girard predicted, or positive. If positive, they're to tell him something that for some reason cannot be told by normal means, and what can concern his gate only. Again, why? Someone is so powerful that he can stop all divine and arcane magic from working? And what exactly a few low-level paladin lackeys expect to be able to do against such person, or against anyone strong, after they give Girard such message?
Low level lackey's can provide Girard with a detail description of the danger that threatens his gate thus making him better abled to prepare... furtharmore, "paladin lackeys" do not have to be "low level lackeys"


And where paladin is going to find True Seeing anyway?
True seeing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)


No one was sent to Girard then, and besides, he, too, knew it was destroyed; Girard was right in the sense if they broke their word, and showed in person without contacting him first, the gate itself could be the only object they were after - and the oath they swore specifically precluded this.
No one was sent to Girand's gate because as Shojo pointed out, the paladins would not do anything unless they were certain all of the gates were in danger; the loss of of one or two gates is not sufficent...

Futharmore, you never heard the paladin's oath... you heard only serini's interpretation of the promise... from what we know from hinjo, the paladin's oath only lasted as long as their gate did, once it was gone they were free


Someone evil, who was powerful enough to take the needed info from Soon (or paladin turned rogue = Blackguard). In both cases, honor of the paladin was broken, so Girard was (again) right
Wrong as information can be extracted forcefully by magical means... as long as the paladin's knew, evil could rip the information from them


Thus, Girard can indeed freely mention Serini, as anyone standing there, on this wrong spot, will know about her. Even if he didn't, one name won't tell him anything. Let's note than the only person who was a threat to all gates since they were build - Xykon, wouldn't be there. Even if he were, he wouldn't learn anything new anyway.
Except unlike the rest of the order of the scribble that had magical powers, or had acess to underlings with magical powers, serini has not shown herself to have such skills... ergo, a powerful scry might be all it takes to find serini

And hell, Girard in a sense implied that Soon might know where to find Serini... he said "good luck getting her to tell you" as opposed to "good luck finding her"... so if Evil forces did extract the location of girard's gate from the SG they could also extract Info about Serini's where abouts


Plus, let's see: a) all good aligned OotSers agreed with Girard, not with the paladin, b) he considered possibility of paladins going blackguard/zealous, or c) possibility that 12 gods (or someone pretending to speak for them - Rat, maybe?) would order Soon to take the gates "for the greater good". In all cases, Girard was (once again) correct
As we can see he was WRONG on all accounts.
As we are seeing right now, the SG+OoTS is there to offer their assistance against a threat that has thus far manage to best 3 of the gate's defenders (if by "best" we mean "lead to the destruction of their respective gates" as Soon had Xykon beat)...

Furtharmore, that threat currently DOES know the location of his gate (thanks to him providing serini with the loaction) and the forces of good are placed in a position where they are unable to warn him and offer their assistance... hell one thing the OotS+SG can give Girard is Xykon's spell list


If he went after Serini after hearing this, he would find not one but two (or four, as only Soon was excluded from friendly talks) epic characters lying in wait to spring an ambush on Mr Badguy's ass.
y'know depending on where Mr.Badguy decides to strike next... by meeting up together they could in fact be leaving the gate that Mr Badguy target's next unguarded... he also didn't take into account that serini might already be dead thanks to Mr.Badguy, as he could have chosen to go after the gate up north first

and let us not forget the friendly neighborhood oracle that can tell us the location of pretty much ANYTHING!


Girard needed at least one person capable of tracking his gate down if something happened to him, of if others needed his help.
Gee, had he just trusted Soon, the SG and OotS could be that "one person"... you remember Soon, the guy who managed to stand by his oath for decades, to an almost annoying degree(hell even Redcloak, the evil goblin attempting to conquer the world, mocked him and the entire SG for not having more knowledge on the gates), until 3 gates including his own was destroy with a very clear threat being presented to the remaining two... Hell soon's had an entire army that could back up Girard in his time of need.


In fact, giving her different info was the best thing Girard might have done, as now Redcloak and co don't know which one is real - and will have to check both ones... while wading through epic illusions, instead of just staying in "real" spot until they find it
We know for a fact that serini's info is real as the oracle already told us that Xykon will get close to Girard's gate


y'know what you have to face facts and look at the current situation...
Currently, the forces of Good that were working with the SG are at the wrong location... their purpose is not to claim the gate or anything like that, but to warn Girard of the coming danger and provide him assistance... meanwhile the forces of Evil, have in their hands the diary of Serini which contains the REAL location for Girard's gate, the location of which was provided by Girard himself

All in all, Girard has now greatly endangered his gate due to the fact that he did not trust Soon, but chose to provide the real location to someone else... he would have been better off telling no one the location, or trusting Soon with the location as his paranoid beliefs that Soon would become a threat were unfounded and wrong

[Optimystik]

Well now Trixie, I'm surprised you're still here after the avalanche you triggered in the "Xykon battle" thread. :smallamused:


Paladins. Lot of HP.

Exactly the same as fighters, only no paladin in the CITY was as high a level as Roy. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html)


Saves.

We don't know what save that thing targeted, or even if it allowed one, but for the sake of your argument lets assume Reflex half.

My point stands even so. If the DC on that thing was low enough that a mid-level paladin could get around it, it wasn't going to be a threat to any bad guys that triggered the illusion (or Soon), making Girard an idiot. If it was too high for them to get around, it would be murdering paladins he didn't even know, making him a monster.


Lay on Hands. The entire Cure X Wounds line of spells. Allied Clerics.

Rather hard to be heal yourself (or be healed) when you're blown to pieces.


Shall I continue? :smallamused:

By all means, I crave entertainment.

[Shale]

Now, compare him to Soon that gives command to Shojo's father - now he has white hair and frail build, indicating old age. All this proves only that some time passed between falling out, and passing of command, during which time he progressed from Adult to Old/Venerable (and during which time crusades mentioned in panel above happen).

In other words, he was adult, not old, when they had this dispute. Notice how young Girard look in this illusion. Age penalties, indeed

Not possible. Shojo says, in that same comic, that he's been lord of the city and commander of the Sapphire Guard for 47 years. That means it was no more than 19 years between the day Soon started his quest and the day Shojo's father died - at which point Soon was already gone. Even if Shojo's father died a few days after Soon (which I really doubt) he would still have had to age the 35 years from Adult to Venerable in 19 years. He might have started out at late middle age, but it still takes 17 years to go through that progression which would mean (a) the OotScribble's quest took less than a year and (b) Shojo's father spent less than two years as commander of the SG.

And in general, I'd put more stock in the numbers Sojo knows than the fine details of his descriptions of people that he wasn't actually there to see.

[Roderick_BR]

Now, oddly enough, I have something to say in Girard's defense: Maybe his spell was real, but was still a bluff. As in "you should have died instead" *boom* "See? This IS what should have happened*. The spell was real, and damaging, but was more bells and whistles than an actual attempt to kill Soon and/or his "lackeys".
I think it was his way of pointing a finger to Soon and saying "bang".

[Kish]

Now, oddly enough, I have something to say in Girard's defense: Maybe his spell was real, but was still a bluff. As in "you should have died instead" *boom* "See? This IS what should have happened*. The spell was real, and damaging, but was more bells and whistles than an actual attempt to kill Soon and/or his "lackeys".
I think it was his way of pointing a finger to Soon and saying "bang".
The problem with that is that Girard doesn't even claim to know with certainty that Soon himself is there. If it was designed to take away half the hit points of whomever it hits, then fair enough, but it looks like a fiery explosion, not the kind of negative energy spell that usually does things like that (and quite a damaging one, by the look of Roy at the end). If it did enough damage to do that to Roy, but there were fifth-level paladin messengers there instead, it would turn them into ash. "Say hello to your barnyard gods for me" sounds like he wants and expects the person he thinks he's addressing to be dead in a second.

[Optimystik]

Now, oddly enough, I have something to say in Girard's defense: Maybe his spell was real, but was still a bluff. As in "you should have died instead" *boom* "See? This IS what should have happened*. The spell was real, and damaging, but was more bells and whistles than an actual attempt to kill Soon and/or his "lackeys".
I think it was his way of pointing a finger to Soon and saying "bang".

What Kish said, but I add this - if he worked out that he should be hostile to whomever viewed his recording, he had no business helping them. "Your next step is to find Serini" could be at least slightly - slightly - forgiven as Bond villainy if he had made his trap universally lethal. But a "bang, you're dead! Not!" demonstration has no business giving the victim leads.

[Spiky]

This thread is....typical, unfortunately.

Isn't the simplest explanation that the blowhard Girard used his most powerful spell of the time and assumed he could kill Soon with it? His logic and understanding of others* has so far been questionable.

And there's way too many posters using present tense conjugations in regards to a recording made nearly a century ago. Even those with an accurate assesment of Girard's ranting.



* well, at least, of Soon

[factotum]

He's already seen Soon betray one member of their party. And it wasnt merely killing: he had that member unmade, no afterlife, no heaven.. nothing. Its not a far leap to think of him betraying another.

Soon clearly DIDN'T betray Kraagor because he would have Fallen for such an act. Furthermore, Girard's accusation that Soon is a "cowardly bastard" is clearly false as well, because Paladins have built-in immunity to fear. Therefore, no matter what way you look at this, Girard was wrong about Soon, and anything he set up based on that faulty logic is also wrong.

[Conuly]

Soon clearly DIDN'T betray Kraagor because he would have Fallen for such an act.

Girard clearly doesn't think much of Soon's gods (or maybe anybody's gods - that they exist, does that mean they deserve worship?), so maybe he thinks they're being biased. There's more than one view of a situation. Just like the good gods seem to condone things that at least some of the people on this forum consider evil, maybe Girard thinks that they overlook some things that he would call betrayal, for pragmatic reasons or because they favor paladins or because... I don't know what.

Even if the gods and Soon don't think Soon betrayed Kraagor, Girard is allowed to think that they're mistaken. And he may be right, and he may be wrong, and maybe the gods took a vote and it was 7 - 5, and maybe Soon *did* fall but atoned (which would help explain why Girard is so scornful of the honor of a paladin NEVER being broken) - we don't know!

And we won't know until the comic is updated again, either.


Furthermore, Girard's accusation that Soon is a "cowardly bastard" is clearly false as well, because Paladins have built-in immunity to fear.

Isn't it a bit cowardly to be so scared of fear that you have to have an immunity to it to overcome it? Who's braver, the one who overcomes his fears or the one who doesn't have any fears to overcome in the first place?

[ComradeMolokov]

Isn't it a bit cowardly to be so scared of fear that you have to have an immunity to it to overcome it? Who's braver, the one who overcomes his fears or the one who doesn't have any fears to overcome in the first place?

Neither, as the bravery of the one who cannot feel fear simply cannot be measured. If bravery is the ability to overcome fear and cowardice the inability to do so, then how can either term be applied to someone who does not have any fear to overcome or give in to? How can bravery or cowardice be measured when the impulse required to test for their presence does not exist in the first place? The very words "bravery" and "cowardice" cease to have any meaning when one cannot feel fear. That is ultimately why "cowardly" is the wrong word to use to describe Soon during his paladin days, no matter what opinions one might hold about Soon himself.

[Kish]

and maybe Soon *did* fall but atoned (which would help explain why Girard is so scornful of the honor of a paladin NEVER being broken)
...but at the cost of making Soon saying the honor of a paladin is unbreakable a big "wtf?"

[Conuly]

...but at the cost of making Soon saying the honor of a paladin is unbreakable a big "wtf?"

Yes, there is that. But maybe Soon was always a bit dumb, or a big hypocrite. Who the heck knows? At this point, my brain has been so scrambled by everybody's alternative hypotheses that I have no idea which way is up.

[PallElendro]

Serini never retired. Heck, she didn't even build a gate. Just a memorial for Kraagor using the toughest monsters of the world on the polar ice cap.

[Shatteredtower]

Unsubstantiated speculation.

Fact. Indisputable now that we've seen it's killed no one.

If everyone survived, the effort clearly was not meant to kill someone much hardier than an elf wizard. It was just part of a message, one to dissuade ambition, but not desperation. The Order demonstrates the latter quite well.

[Shatteredtower]

Claiming that he had no way to preview it is a transparent lie.

No, an oversight, not that I had a convenient way to cut and paste. Still, it is something that should have occurred to me.

Optimystik, you still don't get it. The words are accompanied by action that makes it clear that he isn't trying to kill Soon here, putting the lie to your claim.

Anyone that could have learned this gate's location from Soon would have had an easier time learning of Serini's from the same source. She is in no more danger from this reveal than she was before, and those with need to find this gate aren't left completely high and dry. Simple.