PDA

View Full Version : Some Tweaks for the Sorcerer Class (3.5)



Revan Ordo
2009-12-16, 08:47 AM
Ever since I started playing D&D back in 2000, I have always enjoyed the Sorcerer class. But I've always felt that it was lacking something when compared to other full spellcasting classes. We established some house rules to fix the class years ago and I wanted to hear from others if any seemed especially 'broken' or 'unbalanced'

Tweaks:

HD: Improve to d6 (Noticed that in Pathfinder all d4 HD classes were upgraded to d6)

Skills: Added Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Use Magic Device to class skills.

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, the sorcerer gains their choice of Eschew Materials or Versatile Spellcaster. Gains an additional bonus feat of their choice at 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th chosen from the following list: Any Heritage Feat, Any Item Creation Feat, Any Metamagic Feat, Greater Spell Focus [Any], Greater Spell Penetration, Obtain Familiar, Spell Focus [Any], Spell Penetration

Spells Per Day: Only change here is that a Sorcerer gains his Charisma modifier as a bonus to his number of 0th level spell slots.

Spells Known: Sorcerer gets bonus spells known equal to his bonus spells per day gained from his Charisma modifier.

Anonymouswizard
2009-12-16, 09:37 AM
I like the bonus feats and spells known changes, but not the spells per day, unless you give it to all casters.

Eloel
2009-12-16, 10:03 AM
So, now the Sorcerer has as many spells known as Wizard has slots, can cast them twice as often, has all feats Wizard has (with a better feat at 1st level).


Sounds unfair, somehow.

dsmiles
2009-12-16, 10:32 AM
Seems a little over-powered now. The d6 isn't too much, and the skill additions are good, but I'd leave the spell slots and bonus feats alone.

Starsinger
2009-12-16, 11:21 AM
I actually have taken to giving Sorcerers free reserve feats at 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20. I mean, if their magic is innate, they're natural candidates (pun intended) for getting free reserve feats.

Zom B
2009-12-16, 12:04 PM
I actually have taken to giving Sorcerers free reserve feats at 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20. I mean, if their magic is innate, they're natural candidates (pun intended) for getting free reserve feats.

Like.


I like the bonus feats and spells known changes, but not the spells per day, unless you give it to all casters.

In most of my games I do basically this for all casters. Whenever you get the ability to cast third level spells, you don't have to prepare 0-level spells anymore and you can cast as many of them as you want. I'm even fine with people taking an hour to cast 600 Cure Minor Wounds to heal everyone with this rule.

Revan Ordo
2009-12-16, 12:25 PM
AnonymousWizard,
Perhaps you are right. I will eliminate the extra 0th level spells per day entirely.


Ozgun92,
Maybe it does when looked at that way. However, you should consider the fact that the Wizard also has the ability to use metamagic feats on his spells without increasing the casting time and the Wizard can add to his spellbook an almost limitless number of spells (only limiting factor really is the number of pages in the spellbook, but that is solved rather easily by buying another spellbook for 15gp (fairly cheap). The only work-arounds to this for a sorcerer are Metamagic Specialist ACF (Costs the Sorcerer his summon familiar ability) or the Rapid Metamagic feat (Costs a feat which the Sorcerer has fewer of compared to the Wizard, and it can only be taken at 9th level).
Also consider this example:

Level 1 Wizard:
Str10, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 12
Has the ability to summon a familiar (Same as Sorcerer)
Gains the Scribe Scroll feat (A very useful item creation feat that can compensate some for the wizard’s lack of spells per day.)
Spells Per Day: 0th – 3; 1st – 1 / +1 (from Int modifier)

5 spells to cast per day at 1st

Spells in Spellbook: 0th – All (At least 19 spells if only using the PHB); 1st – 3 + 4 (from Int modifier).
So a total of 26 spells to choose from at 1st level, could easily be 28 if the wizard has the Collegiate Wizard feat.

While it is true that the wizard, can’t cast his nearly limitless spells all that often, he does have a great deal of versatility which the sorcerer lacks.

Compared to 3.5 PHB Sorcerer of the same level

Level 1 Sorcerer
Str10, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 18
Has the ability to summon a familiar (Same as Wizard)
Gains no bonus feats at all.
Spells Per Day: 0th – 5; 1st 3 / +1 (from Cha modifier)
9 spells per day at 1st level. By 20th level he will have 6 / + x (bonus spells from Cha modifier) spells per day of each level, only 2 additional spell slots per day than a 20th level Wizard with an Int modifier as high as the Sorcerer’s Charisma modifier has prepared spells. So the 20th level Sorcerer is only getting half as many more spells per day than a 20th level Wizard.

Spells Known: 0th – 4; 1st – 2
6 spells to choose from at 1st level. Do I really need to say more? By 20th level the Sorcerer may know 43 spells as opposed to the Wizard who has at least 64 spells in his spellbook before you take into account the nearly limitless number of spells he/she has ‘learned’ from other wizards, scrolls, personal research, etc. As a safe estimate let us assume that the Wizard has ‘learned’ only two additional spells of each level from either of the aforementioned sources this brings the Wizards total number of spells he/she has in their spellbook by 20th level to 84. So the 20th level Sorcerer is only getting about half as many spells known as the 20th level Wizard, which he cannot use metamagic feats on without increasing the casting time unless he gets an alternate class feature that requires losing the ability to summon a familiar or by spending a feat at 9th level (Losing either of which weakens the sorcerer even further when compared to the wizard).

In Conclusion:
The wizard is going to be much more versatile than the sorcerer when it comes to spells, will have more feats than the sorcerer, can use metamagic feats without increasing casting time, can compensate for the fewer number of spells per day by scribing scrolls due to the feat granted at 1st level, and has access to more beneficial skills.

The sorcerer can cast more spells from a very limited selection (Only ways around this are: By selecting limited wish, shadow conjuration, shadow evocation, and wish spells for spells known or Getting into a PrC that increases spells known.), cannot use metamagic feats without penalty, doesn’t get as many feats, doesn’t get as many skills, and doesn’t really have any way to compensate for the fewer spells known in class.
I don’t see this as being balanced at all. The Sorcerer’s extra spells per simply do not make up for the other class features that the Wizard gets.


dsmiles,
I should have specified earlier, but in our campaigns all of the d4 HD classes have had their HD upgraded to d6s.


Starsinger,
Now that is a truly great idea. Giving reserve feats at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th makes a lot of sense actually. I think I will do this from now on.

Harperfan7
2009-12-16, 12:43 PM
I did something along the same lines, but not so powerful.

Add Intimidate to class skills (they seem intimidating, but diplomacy doesn't match the fluff so well, and use magic device is a trickster skill)

Added eschew materials at first level and a bonus feat at 5th/10th/15th/20th
(spell focus/greater, spell penetration/greater, rapid metamagic, piercing evocation, spell girding - basically, any spell feat that increases power, not item creation or planning)

Latronis
2009-12-16, 09:54 PM
How I tweaked the Sorcerer...

HD: d8

BAB: As rogue

Skills: Added Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Use Magic Device to class skills.

Skill points: 4 + Int (x4 @ 1st level)

Proficiencies: Simple Weapons + 1 martial weapon of your choice; Light armour but not shields.

Cantrips: Knows a number of 0th-level spells equal to charisma modifier useable at will.

Spellcasting: As Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer). Except for the aforementioned cantrips

Lose: Familiar

1st level Feats: Eschew Materials. X Heritage.

Bonus Feats(5th, 10th, 15th, 20th levels): Heritage Feats.

Can cast arcane spells in light armour without spell failure.

can only activate spell completion magic items if they have the spell known, but can always take 10 on UMD checks to activate magic items.

Milskidasith
2009-12-16, 09:56 PM
How I tweaked the Sorcerer...

HD: d8

BAB: As rogue

Skills: Added Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Use Magic Device to class skills.

Skill points: 4 + Int (x4 @ 1st level)

Proficiencies: Simple Weapons + 1 martial weapon of your choice; Light armour but not shields.

Cantrips: Knows a number of 0th-level spells equal to charisma modifier useable at will.

Spellcasting: As Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer). Except for the aforementioned cantrips

Lose: Familiar

1st level Feats: Eschew Materials. X Heritage.

Bonus Feats(5th, 10th, 15th, 20th levels): Heritage Feats.

Can cast arcane spells in light armour without spell failure.

can only activate spell completion magic items if they have the spell known, but can always take 10 on UMD checks to activate magic items.

So it's even weaker and less versatile, due to less spells known and being unable to use magic items to compensate? Hell, even a class with no reason to have UMD as a class skill can use spell completion items, why not that?

Latronis
2009-12-16, 10:09 PM
So it's even weaker and less versatile, due to less spells known and being unable to use magic items to compensate? Hell, even a class with no reason to have UMD as a class skill can use spell completion items, why not that?

Why not let them activate any magic item? That seems a little over the top.

Milskidasith
2009-12-16, 10:23 PM
Why not let them activate any magic item? That seems a little over the top.

Because it makes no sense that an inherently magical class is less capable of activating items than a commoner who dabbles. Banning them from any spell completion item is just... strange.

Plus, losing spells known, even for extra melee ability (and not much of it) is never a good trade.

Latronis
2009-12-16, 10:52 PM
Because it makes no sense that an inherently magical class is less capable of activating items than a commoner who dabbles. Banning them from any spell completion item is just... strange.

Plus, losing spells known, even for extra melee ability (and not much of it) is never a good trade.

1) Instead of being able to activate spell completion\spell trigger magic items from the entire sorcerer\wizard list he only uses his spells known list.

2) He can still make Use Magic Device checks, has UMD as a class skill and can take 10 on the checks at any time in relation to activating those magic items.

Only spells known are freebies. But then he is more consistent with his UMD than a 'dabbler'

Milskidasith
2009-12-16, 11:06 PM
1) Instead of being able to activate spell completion\spell trigger magic items from the entire sorcerer\wizard list he only uses his spells known list.

2) He can still make Use Magic Device checks, has UMD as a class skill and can take 10 on the checks at any time in relation to activating those magic items.

Only spells known are freebies. But then he is more consistent with his UMD than a 'dabbler'

Ah, that's slightly better, I thought you had barred any spell completion items for spells he didn't know. He's still weaker than normal because of a lack of spells known.

Latronis
2009-12-16, 11:18 PM
Ah, that's slightly better, I thought you had barred any spell completion items for spells he didn't know. He's still weaker than normal because of a lack of spells known.

Well it's not like it's really a nerf compared to non-spellcasters which is why i did it, and i wanted to play up the inherent casting angle by advancing the non-spellcasting aspects which can still be useful for spellcasters. If you're just interested in lining it up with the prepared casters you can use the PHB progression instead of the battle sorcerer progression.

Milskidasith
2009-12-16, 11:20 PM
Well it's not like it's really a nerf compared to non-spellcasters which is why i did it, and i wanted to play up the inherent casting angle by advancing the non-spellcasting aspects which can still be useful for spellcasters. If you're just interested in lining it up with the prepared casters you can use the PHB progression instead of the battle sorcerer progression.

But how does gaining better HD and armor use play up the innate casting angle? I find that actually being a better caster plays up the casting angle, for me.

Latronis
2009-12-16, 11:32 PM
But how does gaining better HD and armor use play up the innate casting angle? I find that actually being a better caster plays up the casting angle, for me.

It comes naturally so they have more time to spend on other pursuits.. better HD, proficiencies, BAB, and base skill points (if probably not actual skill points) combined with spontaneous casting does a better job of it than just spontaneous casting and all simple weapons. On paper it's better than the wizard in everyway not related to spellcasting because unlike the wizard they didn't have to spend a lifetime learning how to tell the laws of physics to take a seat.

Anonymouswizard
2009-12-17, 07:01 AM
How about this for the sorcerer:

Hit dice: d4

Skills: add intimidate, UMD and gather information to the class list.
Skill points: 4+int mod

Proficiency: add light armour proficieny.

Spellcasting: same as before, but can now cast spells in light armour.

Spells known: add bonus spells from charisma modifier.

Bonus feats: X heritage at 1st level, heritage feats every 5 levels.


Skills: Can always take 10 on UMD checks, gains a +2 bonus to spell completion items if the spell is on the wizard/sorcerer list.

May also lose his familiar for one of the following benefits:
Call ancestor: Requires draconic heritage. Choose any two of the dragon descendent ancestors. You may call them up as a dragon descendent does, but you can only call one at a time and can only call them a number of times per day equal to your sorcerer level. Dragon descendent: Dragon Magic page 34.

Draconic aura: You can gain any one draconic aura. All draconic auras you have have a bonus of 1/4 your sorcerer level, rounded up.

Specialized sorcerer: choose 1 school of magic. You gain +2 on spellcraft and UMD checks related to that school, and know 1 extra spell of that school per spell level, in addition to your spells known.

Or any ability a wizard can sacrifice his familiar for, using cha instead of int where appropriate.

Revan Ordo
2009-12-17, 08:17 AM
AnonymousWizard,

Nice ideas for some tweaks. I especially like the skill improvements and the bonus spells known.