uhmmm... hi. I have a question.

[AngryMan]

Something's bugging me slightly, and it's got to the point where I've registered just to mention this, but...

in #276 "The Crayons of Time: The Order of the Scribble" we're told that Soon, Girard et al travelled to all of the rifts and closed them one by one, before creating the gates.

Surely that would mean that all of them would be able to remember the rough locations of the other gates, even if they don't know the precise co-ordinates? How is it that none of them would apparently be able to remember the location of places they specifically adventured to and closed as part of their big quest?

Is there an explanation for this?

[Ceaon]

Surely that would mean that all of them would be able to remember the rough locations of the other gates, even if they don't know the precise co-ordinates?

And they do. Where did you get the idea that they don't?

[BRC]

Something's bugging me slightly, and it's got to the point where I've registered just to mention this, but...

in #276 "The Crayons of Time: The Order of the Scribble" we're told that Soon, Girard et al travelled to all of the rifts and closed them one by one, before creating the gates.

Surely that would mean that all of them would be able to remember the rough locations of the other gates, even if they don't know the precise co-ordinates? How is it that none of them would apparently be able to remember the location of places they specifically adventured to and closed as part of their big quest?

Is there an explanation for this?
They know the rough locations. Soon knows that the Gate is somewhere on the western continent in the desert. But that's it. Without any landmarks you need navigational expertise to know where in a desert you are. The gate is, in fact, somewhere in the desert, just not where Girard said it was.


Also, remember, Soon intended to stick to his oath and never interfere with the other gates. It's not like he said "I'm going to send some paladins to the coordinates Girard gave me just to make sure they were the right ones".

[Thoran]

Something's bugging me slightly, and it's got to the point where I've registered just to mention this, but...

in #276 "The Crayons of Time: The Order of the Scribble" we're told that Soon, Girard et al travelled to all of the rifts and closed them one by one, before creating the gates.

Surely that would mean that all of them would be able to remember the rough locations of the other gates, even if they don't know the precise co-ordinates? How is it that none of them would apparently be able to remember the location of places they specifically adventured to and closed as part of their big quest?

Is there an explanation for this?

I'm going to grab a handheld GPS and lead you to a random spot in the middle of the Sahara desert. Once there, you can take a look around and then we'll head back. After a few years go by you get to set off on your own to try to find that exact spot. Remember your landmarks, it was just by that big sand dune, that was next to that other sand dune that looked just like it, that was a little leftish of that other sand dune that looked just like the other two, etc.

[Optimystik]

I'm going to grab a handheld GPS and lead you to a random spot in the middle of the Sahara desert. Once there, you can take a look around and then we'll head back. After a few years go by you get to set off on your own to try to find that exact spot. Remember your landmarks, it was just by that big sand dune, that was next to that other sand dune that looked just like it, that was a little leftish of that other sand dune that looked just like the other two, etc.

Don't forget that cactus! You know, the spiny one.

[martinkou]

Something's bugging me slightly, and it's got to the point where I've registered just to mention this, but...

in #276 "The Crayons of Time: The Order of the Scribble" we're told that Soon, Girard et al travelled to all of the rifts and closed them one by one, before creating the gates.

Surely that would mean that all of them would be able to remember the rough locations of the other gates, even if they don't know the precise co-ordinates? How is it that none of them would apparently be able to remember the location of places they specifically adventured to and closed as part of their big quest?

Is there an explanation for this?

My theory is... they do remember it. Girard's illusion is just misleading anyone activating it into thinking OOtScr is stupid, and that they should go somewhere else to find the true location of Girard's Gate.

There should be even more troll messages stored in Girard's illusion, depending on the keywords used to activate it.

[Kish]

Soon knows the Gate is in the desert. Somewhere.

If Soon was actually alive and with the Order, he might be able to guide them to it, or at least closer to it, by landmarks.

Shojo, who was never at Girard's Gate, gave the Order, who were never at Girard's Gate, the coordinates Soon hadn't checked because he trusted the group's mapmaker.

[AngryMan]

I'm going to grab a handheld GPS and lead you to a random spot in the middle of the Sahara desert. Once there, you can take a look around and then we'll head back. After a few years go by you get to set off on your own to try to find that exact spot.

I think you may be taking me a little too literally. I'm thinking of it more like looking at the map and thinking "I'm sure I remember the rift being north of that mountain range, before." I'm not talking a perfectly precise recollection here, more just being able to identify if the co-ordinates given are grossly wrong.

I mean, I'm going off the assumption that the group looked at a map at some point, here, and that Soon would at least be smart enough to point at a place on said map and say "it was about there".

To put it another way, I'm saying that while Soon may not be able to point out, say, Frankfurt on a map of Europe, he should still be able to tell the difference between co-ordinates in France and co-ordinates in Germany, despite both of those countries being in Europe and having fairly similar climates.

So either Girard's fake co-ordinates aren't all that far off, or else they are and Soon never noticed, or noticed and never let on because of his vows. Or there's a mistake involved.


Shojo, who was never at Girard's Gate, gave the Order, who were never at Girard's Gate, the coordinates Soon hadn't checked because he trusted the group's mapmaker.

So the next question is: Given how much Girard apparently hated Soon, why would Soon trust him? Standard paladin stick-up-the-ass naivety?

[Conuly]

Don't forget that cactus! You know, the spiny one.

Cacti are indigenous to the New World. There aren't any in the Sahara - not even any with cute flowers on top.

[Hann]

Cacti are indigenous to the New World. There aren't any in the Sahara - not even any with cute flowers on top.

The more you know! :smallbiggrin:

[Harr]

To put it another way, I'm saying that while Soon may not be able to point out, say, Frankfurt on a map of Europe, he should still be able to tell the difference between co-ordinates in France and co-ordinates in Germany, despite both of those countries being in Europe and having fairly similar climates.


Being able to tell one featureless patch of empty desert from another featureless patch of empty desert within the same continent spanning empty desert is a lot harder than either of those.

Keep in mind when we say "continent", Europe is tiny as far as continents go. I'm pretty sure that this desert is more on the scale of Africa or Asia than Europe.


So either Girard's fake co-ordinates aren't all that far off, or else they are and Soon never noticed, or noticed and never let on because of his vows. Or there's a mistake involved.


It's just a big desert. "Big" being the operative word (and "desert" being the other one).

[NerfTW]

I think you may be taking me a little too literally. I'm thinking of it more like looking at the map and thinking "I'm sure I remember the rift being north of that mountain range, before." I'm not talking a perfectly precise recollection here, more just being able to identify if the co-ordinates given are grossly wrong.

I mean, I'm going off the assumption that the group looked at a map at some point, here, and that Soon would at least be smart enough to point at a place on said map and say "it was about there".

To put it another way, I'm saying that while Soon may not be able to point out, say, Frankfurt on a map of Europe, he should still be able to tell the difference between co-ordinates in France and co-ordinates in Germany, despite both of those countries being in Europe and having fairly similar climates.

So either Girard's fake co-ordinates aren't all that far off, or else they are and Soon never noticed, or noticed and never let on because of his vows. Or there's a mistake involved.



So the next question is: Given how much Girard apparently hated Soon, why would Soon trust him? Standard paladin stick-up-the-ass naivety?

You might want to look at what deserts actually look like. Mountain ranges wouldn't even last long against sand storms. Deserts constantly shift, and this is a large desert. Even if he could say "It's north of this mountain range", that's still a lot of area the gate could be in. It's not the same as Germany vs France, because both those areas have unique landmarks that last a long time.

As Roy spends a LOT of time telling the party and the readers, there is absolutely no way to find a location in the desert without using star charts and navigational tools. NONE. Even if you know the coordinates ahead of time, you'd have to keep checking them as you move. That's why deserts are dangerous. You're going to go in circles if you travel far enough, so even if he says "The gate is 20 miles in that direction", without landmarks, you'll start going way off path.

(In fact, this is also why caravans travel in miles long lines instead of a large tight cluster. It prevents going off course because you can see if you're starting to turn when you notice you're now parallel with the back of the line.)

[Harr]

(In fact, this is also why caravans travel in miles long lines instead of a large tight cluster. It prevents going off course because you can see if you're starting to turn when you notice you're now parallel with the back of the line.)

That's interesting, I never knew that.. makes sense though.

[BRC]

Also, they're not looking for a city, but for a Gate, one hidden by illusions at that. Soon could probably remember that, say, the gate was in the northwestern part of the desert. Girard picks a random spot that fits the description "In the northwestern part", and boom, soon says "yeah, that sounds about right".


You're acting like the Gate was a days travel from the eastern shoreline, and Girard's coordinates are sitting on the western beach.

Also, Soon may have not bothered to check (after all, he intended to keep his oath). He just left the coordinates Girard gave him "just in case", and didn't bother to say "Oh, by the way, it was in the northwestern part of the desert". He's trusting Girard (Paladins arn't good with deception), so why bother leaving any description besides the coordinates, which are more precise than anything else he could provide.

[Gitman00]

Don't forget that cactus! You know, the spiny one.

No cacti in the Sahara; they're exclusive to the New World. :smallbiggrin:
/pedantry

[Optimystik]

What is this "Sahara" you mention? Or this "New World?"

And yes, I knew that.

[NerfTW]

That's interesting, I never knew that.. makes sense though.

Well, it also packs down the sand for those in the back, but both are equally valid reasons to travel in a long line.

[derfenrirwolv]

Surely that would mean that all of them would be able to remember the rough locations of the other gates, even if they don't know the precise co-ordinates? How is it that none of them would apparently be able to remember the location of places they specifically adventured to and closed as part of their big quest?

*borrows varsuvius's chalkboard*

The gate is most likely under ground and or invisible. Its also in the middle of a featureless dessert where the dunes change over time. There are places where you can walk for three days and have it seem like you haven't moved at all.. it all looks the same.

Lets say you're soon. You remember that the gate is 12 days walking in a mostly westish direction. Thee are no landmarks to tell you where you are. The dunes all look alike at the end of day 3, and unless you walk with a compass its surprisingly hard to stay going in a strait line while making any kind of decent speed.

Lets say that Soon had a pretty good guesse as to his direction, and was right within 3 degrees. Lets also say that by some miricle, he went the exact same distance per day as he had 20 years ago and remembered the right number of days he'd been traveling. At 30 miles per day, 12 days= 360 miles in. A 3 degree margin of error would put him 12 miles away...

12* 5280= thats 63,360 feet.


now that doesn't sound very far, but remember that soon doesn't know where the gate is. if he starts his search at ground zero then he needs to cover

the area = pi r^2

3.14 * 63,360 = 12605497344 square feet at 5 square feet per square =
2,521,099,468.8 squares to search.

Action

It takes a full-round action to search a 5-foot-by-5-foot area or a volume of goods 5 feet on a side.

2,521,099,469 squares X 6 seconds per square /60 seconds per minute /60 minutes/hour / 24 hours / day /365.25 days in a year = You'll find it in 479 years and about 8 months... if you never eat or sleep. Thats also assuming your search check will find it. If you need to take 20, you'll get there in 9,592 years.

So yes, the gate is pretty safe in that regard...

Edit
Doh, messed up the triangulation. but you get the idea

[Inhuman Bot]

No cacti in the Sahara; they're exclusive to the New World. :smallbiggrin:
/pedantry

Excuse me, I appear to be lost. Last I checked, the New World was on Earth. But since it isn't, apparently, I appear to not be on Earth. Can I have directions for getting back? Thanks. :smallsmile:

[Mando Knight]

There should be even more troll messages stored in Girard's illusion, depending on the keywords used to activate it.

There could be... it might even be a self-resetting trap made to protect it from the others as well...

...Serini might have had false coordinates herself, with another trap like it. If I was going to be paranoid about the "fascist legions," I'd also be wary of the fellow chaotic type who might also believe that she could do things better if you had a dagger in your back. After all, you trust the people honor-bound to their oaths to break it, shouldn't you prepare for the ones that have less compulsion to behave as well?

[SPoD]

Lets say you're soon. You remember that the gate is 12 days walking in a mostly westish direction.

Let's say you're Soon. You remember Dorukan or Girard casting Greater Teleport on the party, followed by you suddenly appearing in the desert.

Just because the OOTS need to walk doesn't mean the Scribblers did.

[magic9mushroom]

It's in the biggest and most featureless desert on the OotS planet. Soon knew that it was in that desert, and indeed the coordinates were in that desert.

Finding anything in such a desert is difficult, however. It's like, say, finding THAT particular asteroid in the galaxy after several billion years.

[WildPyre]

He wouldn't even have to throw the directions off very much unless he's expecting a massive army of wizards to methodicly comb the area while casting true seeing... and even then with epic illusions... for all WE know the real location of the gate could be 2 blocks to the left.

The OotS could have even traveled right overtop of it on their way to the false location.

[HealthKit]

Let's say you're Soon. You remember Dorukan or Girard casting Greater Teleport on the party, followed by you suddenly appearing in the desert.

Just because the OOTS need to walk doesn't mean the Scribblers did.

Not to mention the supposed illusions protecting the gate... even knowing the exact location, finding it should still be troublesome.

[monomer]

unless he's expecting a massive army of wizards to methodicly comb the area

Great, now I can't stop thinking about Spaceballs.


Comb the Desert!

[WildPyre]

Great, now I can't stop thinking about Spaceballs.

You're quite welcome my good man. *Tips his hat*

[Elderac]

Girard was the tracker. He would have the precise coordinates. He gave them to Sereni who recorded them in her journal.

Since that was the gate he chose to defend, there was no need to share the precise location with the others.

Without the coordinates, it would be very difficult to locate, if not impossible.

[derfenrirwolv]

et's say you're Soon. You remember Dorukan or Girard casting Greater Teleport on the party, followed by you suddenly appearing in the desert.

Just because the OOTS need to walk doesn't mean the Scribblers did.

Well, i was trying to give the BEST possible scenario for walking int a desert and trying to find a spot again

[madtinker]

As Roy spends a LOT of time telling the party and the readers, there is absolutely no way to find a location in the desert without using star charts and navigational tools. NONE. Even if you know the coordinates ahead of time, you'd have to keep checking them as you move. That's why deserts are dangerous. You're going to go in circles if you travel far enough, so even if he says "The gate is 20 miles in that direction", without landmarks, you'll start going way off path.

(In fact, this is also why caravans travel in miles long lines instead of a large tight cluster. It prevents going off course because you can see if you're starting to turn when you notice you're now parallel with the back of the line.)

Interesting caravan fact. Here's another (non caravan) fact: When Charles Lindberg flew over the Atlantic Ocean, his plan was to use dead reckoning (pick a direction and go). He had a sextant (not taint), but most of it was dead reckoning. He kept drifting off to sleep and drifting off course, then course correcting by method of judicious guessing, and when he got to the coast of England, he was a grand total of six miles off course. Just sayin...

[Herald Alberich]

Interesting caravan fact. Here's another (non caravan) fact: When Charles Lindberg flew over the Atlantic Ocean, his plan was to use dead reckoning (pick a direction and go). He had a sextant (not taint), but most of it was dead reckoning. He kept drifting off to sleep and drifting off course, then course correcting by method of judicious guessing, and when he got to the coast of England, he was a grand total of six miles off course. Just sayin...

Charles Lindbergh was an exceptional pilot, but it's also a lot easier to fly in a straight line than walk. And once he got to England (Ireland, actually), he was able to follow it south and fly across the channel, then follow recognizable landmarks to his very well-lit destination of Paris. If the Gate were lit up like Vegas in tourist season, the Order could find it too.