Illegal examples by WoTC?

[deuxhero]

These are sometimes brought up on there own, but has anyone made a complete list?

Apostle of peace (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031004b) has magic items in it's picture yet requires a vow of poverty.
Mage Armor is suggested for use with Abjurant Champion, even though it is a conjuration spell and doesn't work with the abilites (Though mage armor being conjuration in the first place is the really stupid part, but that is not the point).

[lord_khaine]

Even though Mage armor doesnt work with Abjurant champion class ability, then its still a very good spell for that build.

[Starbuck_II]

Apostle of peace (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031004b) has magic items in it's picture yet requires a vow of poverty..

Actually, Apostle of peace says it can use magic items as an exceptipon to VoP.

[Ernir]

WotC has made quite a few mistakes like this... the example Runesmith (Races of Stone) doesn't qualify for the prestige class he is supposed to showcase, I remember. :smalltongue:

It looks to me like the Apostle of Peace entry requirements were changed at the last minute, and the supporting text and art was not updated.

[deuxhero]

Actually, Apostle of peace says it can use magic items as an exceptipon to VoP.

That protect them. Something tells me the floating scroll and idol aren't for protection.


WotC has made quite a few mistakes like this... the example Runesmith (Races of Stone) doesn't qualify for the prestige class he is supposed to showcase, I remember. :smalltongue:


What was the borked requirment. I think it didn't have the needed heavy armor, but not sure.

[Munchkin-Masher]

That protect them. Something tells me the floating scroll and idol aren't for protection.

Why not? it could be a scroll of armor of faith or mage armor or some other bullocks.

[Sinfire Titan]

Every Martial Adept PrC sample character has an IL that rounds up, not down (as though they left out a rule).

Jade Phoenix Mage's sample character has more ranks in Spellcraft than his PrC allows (JPM doesn't get Spellcraft as a class skill).

The Erudite's Unique Powers class feature and example text. [/thread]


A level 12 Truenamer[/snark]

[Ravens_cry]

I think there is a some prestige class like thing that turns you into a mind flayer. Trouble is, the picture shows the lady with all four tentacles and a reasonably human face, while the text explicitly says that if you get all four tentacles you're basically indistinguishable from a mind flayer.

[RandomLunatic]

This Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070717a) article has an example near the bottom where Lidda takes a -4 nonproficiency penalty with a flask of holy water.

Which humorously ignores the quoted rules text right above it which says everybody is proficient with splash weapons.

[Zanatos777]

What was the borked requirment. I think it didn't have the needed heavy armor, but not sure.

Though it has heavy armor prof it lacks medium armor prof.

[tcrudisi]

I think there is a some prestige class like thing that turns you into a mind flayer. Trouble is, the picture shows the lady with all four tentacles and a reasonably human face, while the text explicitly says that if you get all four tentacles you're basically indistinguishable from a mind flayer.

I've met some ladies (and men too) with 2 arms that are basically indistinguishable from a mind flayer. Just sayin'. :smalltongue:

[Tokiko Mima]

PHB has Jozan the example cleric worshipping Pelor and wearing his symbol, but then casting an Evil subtype spell on pg. 291. So either Jozan isn't a cleric of Pelor, or more interestingly, Pelor isn't as Neutral Good as you might suppose.

[The Rose Dragon]

PHB has Jozan the example cleric worshipping Pelor and wearing his symbol, but then casting an Evil subtype spell on pg. 291. So either Jozan isn't a cleric of Pelor, or more interestingly, Pelor isn't as Lawful Good as you might suppose.

Obligatory Pelor, the Burning Hate! (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor_the_Burning_Hate) reference.

[Random NPC]

Obligatory Pelor, the Burning Hate! (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor_the_Burning_Hate) reference.

was just about to post this

[Starscream]

I remember one article on their site where they basically said "This is against the rules, but it's fun so what the hell", and applied a bunch of templates to monsters that technically aren't allowed to have them.

Vampire oozes, Lycanthrope devils etc. Nothing too extreme, they just warned you to consider the CR carefully before doing this.

[deuxhero]

Jade Phoenix Mage's sample character has more ranks in Spellcraft than his PrC allows (JPM doesn't get Spellcraft as a class skill).


Once again the result of a stupid choice of not giving a caster spellcraft (seriously, is there a single other class that has full spell casting or advances it such, that doesn't have spell craft?)

[Sinfire Titan]

Once again the result of a stupid choice of not giving a caster spellcraft (seriously, is there a single other class that has full spell casting or advances it such, that doesn't have spell craft?)

The odd part is that the skill list is identical to the PrC just pages before the JPM. From that standpoint, it seems they just Copy-Pasta'ed the chart and forgot to edit the skills (I do it all the time to conserve time when making classes).

[Oslecamo]

The odd part is that the skill list is identical to the PrC just pages before the JPM. From that standpoint, it seems they just Copy-Pasta'ed the chart and forgot to edit the skills (I do it all the time to conserve time when making classes).

Notice however that once you get a class as class skill, you can always buy the max number of ranks for that class skill. Picking up a prc whitout class skill will just make you have to spend two skill points for each rank, but the max will still be your HD+3.

[lesser_minion]

PHB has Jozan the example cleric worshipping Pelor and wearing his symbol, but then casting an Evil subtype spell on pg. 291. So either Jozan isn't a cleric of Pelor, or more interestingly, Pelor isn't as Neutral Good as you might suppose.

Symbol of Pain didn't have the evil subtype when that artwork was drawn. It's just someone being lazy with caption re-use.


3.0 had quite a few magic items that couldn't be made because they required spells that didn't exist.

[herrhauptmann]

Once again the result of a stupid choice of not giving a caster spellcraft (seriously, is there a single other class that has full spell casting or advances it such, that doesn't have spell craft?)

JPM doesn't grant full casting. It's an 8/10 progression.

[deuxhero]

It progresses full casting (just 8 levels out of 10)

[Kantolin]

The spell 'Polymorph any Object' can be used to duplicate the effects of "Transmute Water to Dust', which I've never heard of and certainly isn't in the PHB.

Unless this has been errata'd, as I note it's not in the SRD. :P

[evil-frosty]

It's an old 2nd edition spell i believe.

[RebelRogue]

Does modules count? After playing through most of the Expedition to the Demonweb Pits book, it's painfully clear to me that the authors have little idea how a lot of the rules work. Like warlocks taking quicken spell-like ability at low level and being able to use it at will, lots of calculational errors of simple things in stat blocks as well as just plainly bad build characters (and me and my group are pretty casual optimisers at best!)

[Rutskarn]

Cavalier has to be lawful. Their example is CN.

[Fhaolan]

Does the MM entries count? Most of the creatures of the Animal type have skills that don't add up properly.

[Beelzebub1111]

I know that Psiforged in Magic of Eberon have the Mithril Body feat, even though in order to BE psiforged, they also need the Psionic Body feat.

[Sinfire Titan]

The spell 'Polymorph any Object' can be used to duplicate the effects of "Transmute Water to Dust', which I've never heard of and certainly isn't in the PHB.

Unless this has been errata'd, as I note it's not in the SRD. :P

Want to know something about PaO? It's a Save or Die. You just cast it and change the target into its own corpse.

[erikun]

The required 8 ranks of Knowledge (Planes) for the Anarchite Initiate prestige class means that a Wilder can't enter the class until 13th level, despite the class being a "super Wilder" of sorts. The Psion and Ardent can enter the class at 5th level, without problem.


Want to know something about PaO? It's a Save or Die. You just cast it and change the target into its own corpse.
If you don't consider a human and a corpse as the "same kingdom" then they only die for 2 days.

[Yuki Akuma]

Want to know something about PaO? It's a Save or Die. You just cast it and change the target into its own corpse.

Could it then also be used as a way to resurrect people? Just turn the corpse back into the person it used to be.

(At the very least, this should resurrect people killed with PAO abuse.)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The Fiend Blooded prestige class is for sorcerers. All WotC example characters for the class are Sorcerer 6/Fiend BloodedX.

Fiend Blooded requires 9 ranks in K. Planes, which is not a sorcerer skill. There is no way to qualify for Fiend Blooded by level 6 as a sorcerer without feats or other prestige classes that give K. Planes, which the example characters do not have.

[Assassin89]

Complete Arcane's example of Green Star Adept. A lawful neutral barbarian/wizard with the ability to rage.

As far as I can tell, that barbarian should be an ex-barbarian.

[Foryn Gilnith]

The example Malconvoker doesn't have enough wisdom to cast most of his spells. And I believe that's even after a magic item boost.

[Nai_Calus]

4E pregens for gamedays often have something off somewhere.

The DMG2 WWGD for example had a pre-made Invoker who had only spent 21 of 22 points for point buy.

[Asbestos]

Symbol of Pain didn't have the evil subtype when that artwork was drawn. It's just someone being lazy with caption re-use.


3.0 had quite a few magic items that couldn't be made because they required spells that didn't exist.

I thought he actually had it in his spell list somewhere.

[Worira]

The sample Ruby Knight Crusader in the ToB worships St. Cuthbert. The class is only for worshipers of Wee Jas.

[FMArthur]

I've run into two:
The "Master of Nine" example in ToB has more feats than is possible (without flaws) and needs them to qualify for the class.

There is a drow ninja in MMIV that wears armor and still uses the ninja's class abilities.

Obviously I'm not searching through books for errors, but it is annoying when I'm looking for NPCs to use that follow the PC rules, and find one that is cheating. I like consistent game worlds.

[KillianHawkeye]

I thought he actually had it in his spell list somewhere.

Not likely. According to the 3.5 version of the spell, symbol of pain cannot be cast by a good cleric. However, as lesser_minion stated, that picture and caption originated from the 3E PHB, in which all the symbol spells were combined together and the pain version didn't have the [Evil] descriptor, making it a completely legal option for 3.0 Jozan. It's just due to laziness that the picture was reused with the same caption.

Anyway, the real question we should be asking is why would he be casting that spell on himself? Am I the only one who thinks that Jozan appears to be in quite a bit of pain in that picture? I guess he is secretly a masochist. :smallamused:

[Roderick_BR]

PHB has Jozan the example cleric worshipping Pelor and wearing his symbol, but then casting an Evil subtype spell on pg. 291. So either Jozan isn't a cleric of Pelor, or more interestingly, Pelor isn't as Neutral Good as you might suppose.
Wrong. That image is from 3.0, when the spell he was casting didn't have the evil subtype. All the symbol spells were a single one, before it was split into several lesser ones.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Wrong. That image is from 3.0, when the spell he was casting didn't have the evil subtype. All the symbol spells were a single one, before it was split into several lesser ones.The image was right at one point, but it's appearance with it's caption in 3.5 is definitely an error by WotC. That error should still have been caught by someone before printing it. Heck, they should never have chosen an evil symbol for a good cleric in the first place. When they were deciding which of the several possible symbol spells to have him casting, who thought it would be a good idea to make the mortal servant of the Great and Wondrous God of Life and Light cast a spell that tortures anyone who comes near it?

[Thurbane]

PHB II has the 1/2 Orc Monk starting package which includes Improved Natural Attack as one of the feats. The feat has a requirement of BAB +4, obviously well outside what a 1st level Monk can take.

The Fiend Blooded prestige class is for sorcerers. All WotC example characters for the class are Sorcerer 6/Fiend BloodedX.

Fiend Blooded requires 9 ranks in K. Planes, which is not a sorcerer skill. There is no way to qualify for Fiend Blooded by level 6 as a sorcerer without feats or other prestige classes that give K. Planes, which the example characters do not have.
Yep, and this one really irks me. It's a great PrC which is obviously intended for Sorcerers, yet you have to blow feats or cross-class to meet the skill requirements. Obviously the designer assumed that Knowledge (the Planes) was on the Sorcerer's skill list, and never bothered checking. :smallannoyed:

[Random832]

Someone was gonna say it, so it might as well be me. :smallbiggrin:


who thought it would be a good idea to make the mortal servant of the Great and Wondrous God of Life and LightBurning Hate cast a spell that tortures anyone who comes near it?

[herrhauptmann]

Someone was gonna say it, so it might as well be me. :smallbiggrin:


Obligatory Pelor, the Burning Hate! (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor_the_Burning_Hate) reference.
The Rose Dragon got there first.

[Myrmex]

Jade Phoenix Mage's sample character has more ranks in Spellcraft than his PrC allows (JPM doesn't get Spellcraft as a class skill).

Did you count all the skill points up? Because a wizard1/commoner 19 with 10 int could have 23 ranks in spellcraft.

From the PHB, pg 59:
If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character's classes, then character level determines a skill's maximum ranks. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)


I think there is a some prestige class like thing that turns you into a mind flayer. Trouble is, the picture shows the lady with all four tentacles and a reasonably human face, while the text explicitly says that if you get all four tentacles you're basically indistinguishable from a mind flayer.

There's nothing in either the Illithid Grapple feats nor the Flayerspawn Psychic prestige class to indicate that you're basically indistinguishable from a mind flayer. If you read what the feat does, you'll see that it basically puts tentacles on your chin.


The Fiend Blooded prestige class is for sorcerers. All WotC example characters for the class are Sorcerer 6/Fiend BloodedX.

Fiend Blooded requires 9 ranks in K. Planes, which is not a sorcerer skill. There is no way to qualify for Fiend Blooded by level 6 as a sorcerer without feats or other prestige classes that give K. Planes, which the example characters do not have.

That's because they took those feats, then Chaos Shuffled them away once they entered Fiend Blooded. :smallwink:

[Yuki Akuma]

Did you count all the skill points up? Because a wizard1/commoner 19 with 10 int could have 23 ranks in spellcraft.

From the PHB, pg 59:
If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character's classes, then character level determines a skill's maximum ranks. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)



There's nothing in either the Illithid Grapple feats nor the Flayerspawn Psychic prestige class to indicate that you're basically indistinguishable from a mind flayer. If you read what the feat does, you'll see that it basically puts tentacles on your chin.



That's because they took those feats, then Chaos Shuffled them away once they entered Fiend Blooded. :smallwink:

If you somehow stop qualifying for something with prerequisites, you don't get its benefit until you qualify again.

So Chaos Shuffling away prerequisite feats for a PrC isn't a great idea, honestly.

[sofawall]

If you somehow stop qualifying for something with prerequisites, you don't get its benefit until you qualify again.

So Chaos Shuffling away prerequisite feats for a PrC isn't a great idea, honestly.

You can take a feat that gives Know: Planes, get the needed ranks, then shuffle it away. You don't lose skill ranks if you lose a feat :P

[Yuki Akuma]

You can take a feat that gives Know: Planes, get the needed ranks, then shuffle it away. You don't lose skill ranks if you lose a feat :P

... Fiendish.

[lesser_minion]

Don't cheese it away. Ask your DM to houserule it.

It's not as bad as having a PrC or a class with stupidly overdone requirements, but it is still a lot better to just houserule it.

Why is cheese more palatable than Rule 0?

[Aquillion]

Could it then also be used as a way to resurrect people? Just turn the corpse back into the person it used to be.
Didn't we discuss that a while back? I seem to recall a thread...

IIRC, the general consensus was that it sort-of works. You get your friend back, but only to the same extent that you would've gotten by polymorphing a dead monkey into your friend (regardless of whether your friend was alive or not at the time.) When used on an inanimate object -- including a corpse -- PAO only cares about the raw material you're polymorphing to the extent that it sets the spell's duration. Otherwise, there's no reason to think the spell sees any difference between your buddy's corpse and a monkey's corpse.

So, basically you get a duplicate, which is alive and walks and talks but doesn't have your friend's soul. Also note that your friend is still dead, and someone could later use, say, True Resurrection to bring him back, the duplicate you made out of his body notwithstanding.


You can take a feat that gives Know: Planes, get the needed ranks, then shuffle it away. You don't lose skill ranks if you lose a feat :PHey, wait a minute. What happens if you shuffle away "Open Minded"? It says 'you immediately gain 5 skill points'. Nothing about losing those skill points if you later lose the feat...

[Yuki Akuma]

Hey, wait a minute. What happens if you shuffle away "Open Minded"? It says 'you immediately gain 5 skill points'. Nothing about losing those skill points if you later lose the feat...

Chaos Shuffle away Open Minded, turn it back into Open Minded, repeat as needed until you have max ranks in every skill?

[Ryumaru]

I know that Psiforged in Magic of Eberon have the Mithril Body feat, even though in order to BE psiforged, they also need the Psionic Body feat.

Not too knowledge on it, but I skimmed the book with Psiforged in a couple of days ago. I thought it mentioned something that if you take Psiforged, you can still take another body feat, even though normally get one at first level?

[sofawall]

Hey, wait a minute. What happens if you shuffle away "Open Minded"? It says 'you immediately gain 5 skill points'. Nothing about losing those skill points if you later lose the feat...

Forgive my poor wording.

You don't suddenly lose ranks you've already put into a skill if you lose that skill as class skill due to, for example, the chaos shuffle trick.

[Yuki Akuma]

Forgive my poor wording.

You don't suddenly lose ranks you've already put into a skill if you lose that skill as class skill due to, for example, the chaos shuffle trick.

Yes, we get that.

But the effect of Open Minded is "you immediately gain 5 skill points". Which you then immediately spend on skill ranks. What happens when you lose the feat? Well... increasing your Intelligence doesn't retroactively give you skill points, and having your Intelligence permanently lowered somehow doesn't retroactively take skill points away, so...

A trick that lets you swap out feats gives you arbitrarily high skill points. Woo! As soon as you can do the Chaos Shuffle, you have max ranks in everything and every skill trick you qualify for. Go you!

[Foryn Gilnith]

Why is cheese more palatable than Rule 0?

It's not. What gave you that impression?

Cheese is, however, much more entertaining than Rule 0.

[Yuki Akuma]

Ugly Panda said it best, I think.

(Psst: down there.)

[lesser_minion]

It's not. What gave you that impression?

Cheese is, however, much more entertaining than Rule 0.

There were a few cheesy workarounds being suggested for the Fiend Blooded.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Oh.

That's because WotC can't invoke Rule 0. "Oh, hey, we're deciding to change this. No, just because. It's not in the errata file or anything, we're just saying this." Makes them look unprofessional. Saves face to assume they're using hilarious workarounds for the sake of preserving a suboptimal build.

[RandomNPC]

the first print 3.0 PHB has the fighter sterting pack halfling in medium armor with a move speed of 30.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Lets also remember that countless charts have errors. People barely use them the mistakes are so clear on them. Thank the Lord for 'Text trumps chart'.


Cavalier has to be lawful. Their example is CN.Most DMs allow alignment change to not **** over a character. RP shouldn't nerf a character, it should enhance it.


PHB II has the 1/2 Orc Monk starting package which includes Improved Natural Attack as one of the feats. The feat has a requirement of BAB +4, obviously well outside what a 1st level Monk can take.Except monks get it as a bonus feat...


Why is cheese more palatable than Rule 0?DCFS is too naughty for me. :smallamused:


Chaos Shuffle away Open Minded, turn it back into Open Minded, repeat as needed until you have max ranks in every skill?This is why everyone with a brain says if you gain a benefit from something you later lose, you lose the initial benefit too. Otherwise you get ni-infinite feats with a familiar (via 5' steps)

[RebelRogue]

Except monks get it as a bonus feat...
Improved Natural Attack != Unarmed Strike.

[Mongoose87]

Improved Natural Attack != Unarmed Strike.
Though, I wouldn't be against giving it to them.

[Yuki Akuma]

Improved Natural Attack != Unarmed Strike.

Improved Natural Attack = Monkey Grip for monks, but actually usable.


This is why everyone with a brain says if you gain a benefit from something you later lose, you lose the initial benefit too. Otherwise you get ni-infinite feats with a familiar (via 5' steps)

I do hope you're not calling me brainless, buddy.

Also, familiars don't actually give you Alertness - you're just treated as having it if you're within five feet of your familiar (or psicrystal, or spirit guide, or special mount, or whatever).

Why they couldn't just say "when within five feet of your familiar/spirit guide/whatever you get a +2 bonus on Spot and Listen checks" is beyond me, but them's the rules.

Maybe so you couldn't take Alertness and get a +4 bonus on Spot and Listen (gasp!). How broken would that be? (Answer: not.)

[Myrmex]

Maybe so you couldn't take Alertness and get a +4 bonus on Spot and Listen (gasp!). How broken would that be? (Answer: not.)

But then how would the monk get to sneak up on the wizard!?

[The Rose Dragon]

But then how would the monk get to sneak up on the wizard!?

Your use of the word "then" assumes that he can sneak up on the wizard now. That might be assuming a little too much.

[Myrmex]

Your use of the word "then" assumes that he can sneak up on the wizard now. That might be assuming a little too much.

You should probably never take anything that ends in both an exclamation point and a question mark too seriously.

[Foryn Gilnith]

What is the floor of the square root of 18!?

[Myrmex]

May I introduce the interrobang? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/!%3F)

[Foryn Gilnith]

That certainly makes interrogative statements ending with factorial signs much easier to process.

Floor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_and_ceiling_functions) of sqrt(18!) is 80014834.



Edited for clarity.

[Myrmex]

Wot's a floor?

[RebelRogue]

Wot's a floor?
Well, chances are, you're standing on one :smalltongue:

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_function might help a bit more)

[FMArthur]

Myrmex clearly belongs to a flying race.

[deuxhero]

This is why everyone with a brain says if you gain a benefit from something you later lose, you lose the initial benefit too. Otherwise you get ni-infinite feats with a familiar (via 5' steps)

And if you use that rule you get Schrodinger's Dragon

[lesser_minion]

And if you use that rule you get Schrodinger's Dragon

Fine, change the line to "may not have the dragon type prior to entering this prestige class"

[AslanCross]

The Ruby Knight Vindicator in Tome of Battle is not a worshipper of Wee Jas. He worships St. Cuthbert and clearly has the War Cross on the pommel of his falchion. I've a feeling this was a last minute flavor change after the art and statblocks were done.

[Thurbane]

The Ruby Knight Vindicator in Tome of Battle is not a worshipper of Wee Jas. He worships St. Cuthbert and clearly has the War Cross on the pommel of his falchion. I've a feeling this was a last minute flavor change after the art and statblocks were done.
Yep, there's a lot of that. Like the sample Knight in PHBII, Lady Sorra. Female human - with suspiciously pointy ears.

[Draz74]

Yep, there's a lot of that. Like the sample Knight in PHBII, Lady Sorra. Female human - with suspiciously pointy ears.

Which would be no problem, except her stat block doesn't list any decent Disguise check modifier, either ...

[deuxhero]

And I don't suppose she has a hat of disguise owned either.

[Akisa]

Which would be no problem, except her stat block doesn't list any decent Disguise check modifier, either ...

A party member could make a disguise roll for her. Or perhaps she died and got reincarnated as half-elf or full elf...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

A party member could make a disguise roll for her. Or perhaps she died and got reincarnated as half-elf or full elf...Actually, they couldn't. Though they should be able to, but RAW, you can only disguise yourself.

[Akisa]

Actually, they couldn't. Though they should be able to, but RAW, you can only disguise yourself.

Where does it say you can't use it on someone else? No where in the skill does it say your disguise is limited on yourself. Then again if disguise the dritz good drow in the party to look like a regular elf vast majority of dm will be using my disguise check oppose to his, as I made the disguise. Now bluffing to act in character or mimic an accent would all be on him :P.

[Narazil]

Where does it say you can't use it on someone else? No where in the skill does it say your disguise is limited on yourself. Then again if disguise the dritz good drow in the party to look like a regular elf vast majority of dm will be using my disguise check oppose to his, as I made the disguise. Now bluffing to act in character or mimic an accent would all be on him :P.
The Disguise skill only uses the word "Your" about your disguise and appearance. "The effectiveness of your disguise depends in part on how much you’re attempting to change your appearance. " ect.

[Akisa]

Because technically it's your disguise that the drow is using that is attempting fooling people. Otherwise people would have to make their own forge check when using a document I created because no where does it say I can hand off my forge attempt for someone else to use.

I also have a question how many dm will say no for someone else to create your disguise?

[Narazil]

Because technically it's your disguise that the drow is using that is attempting fooling people. Otherwise people would have to make their own forge check when using a document I created because no where does it say I can hand off my forge attempt for someone else to use.

I also have a question how many dm will say no for someone else to create your disguise?
I think it's a case of "But the rules don't say you can". While it's logically assumed you CAN disguise someone else, it's not really supported by RAW, in a way. Of course, your DM would have to be insane to consider it.

Forgery is not really a solid example, as it states you forge papers, which you can give away.

[Tokiko Mima]

According to the table 1-2 in Tome of Battle Swordsages start with 6 x (6+Int) skillpoints. The example Swordsage uses 60 skill points, counting synergies, feats and racial adjustments, meaning it has 6 more skill points than are possible for a Swordsage with the 4x for starting skill points, and 6 points less than a 6x Swordsage should have.

[MeTheGameGuy]

May I introduce the interrobang? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/!%3F)

The interrobang, while awesome, is a nonstandard character, and is depressingly not available in many fonts. :smallfrown:

Why doesn't my keyboard have an interrobang key‽ :smallwink: