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View Full Version : Flurry of Blows + TWF = ?



Beelzebub1111
2009-12-22, 09:49 PM
Yes, yes, I know monks blow chunks, but one of my players really wanted to be one. My question is, if someone took TWF and uses a quarterstaff, how would that stack with flurry of blows?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-22, 09:50 PM
Quite possibly.

tahu88810
2009-12-22, 09:58 PM
I don't think I've ever seen any real rules on that, but I think it'd be feasible.

Faleldir
2009-12-22, 10:00 PM
It would stack very inefficiently.

jokey665
2009-12-22, 10:00 PM
I don't know quite how it works by RAW, but I rule that it stacks with flurry, as does Improved TWF, etc.

PinkysBrain
2009-12-22, 10:03 PM
The attacks and attack bonus penalties stack ...

So a first level monk with TWF and using flurry would attack at -4/-4/-4 (assuming a light off hand weapon or equivalent).

A first level monk with TWF and rapidshot (requires flaws) using flurry throwing shurikens would attack at -6/-6/-6/-6.

Coidzor
2009-12-22, 10:05 PM
Which raises the chance of getting a nat 20 in a round... but not much else...

Crafty Cultist
2009-12-22, 10:06 PM
Its specificly states that flurrying with a quarterstaff gets you an extra attack with each end

Beelzebub1111
2009-12-22, 10:07 PM
Which raises the chance of getting a nat 20 in a round... but not much else...

with my group? that's what I'm afraid of...

Also using a quarterstaff...

Zeta Kai
2009-12-22, 10:11 PM
A first level monk with TWF and rapidshot (requires flaws) using flurry throwing shurikens would attack at -6/-6/-6/-6.

...Which wouldn't hit the broad side of a dead horse. Melee-users can't have nice things, but Monk can't even have okay things. :smallyuk:

Beelzebub1111
2009-12-22, 10:17 PM
The attacks and attack bonus penalties stack ...

So a first level monk with TWF and using flurry would attack at -4/-4/-4 (assuming a light off hand weapon or equivalent).

A first level monk with TWF and rapidshot (requires flaws) using flurry throwing shurikens would attack at -6/-6/-6/-6.

Let's take a look at this at 15th level though,

+9/+9/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1
Not including any weapon focus or magical or strength bonuses.

arguskos
2009-12-22, 10:32 PM
Let's take a look at this at 15th level though,

+9/+9/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1
Not including any weapon focus or magical or strength bonuses.
Let's look at MM1 CR 15s, shall we?
Marut, AC 34
Vampire Mnk 9/Shadowdancer 4, AC 32

Also, some CR 14s:
Nalfeshnee, AC 27
Nightwing, AC 30
Truly Horrid Umber Hulk, AC 22

So, your spread of 9s, even with some bonuses, isn't doing so hot. Just sayin'. I mean, it's a cute idea, but really? You need a set of bonuses that are at least +15 to break even with the Marut. And, these aren't even that tough as far as critters go really. You better have some AMAZING bonuses to attack. Possible? Yes. Good? No.

Beelzebub1111
2009-12-22, 10:41 PM
Never said it was any good, but with my group...but to say that they roll twenties a lot is an understatement.

obtusehobbit
2009-12-22, 10:59 PM
The key to a monk Shuriken thrower is the Master Thrower PrC. Make all of those attacks Touch attacks and it looks a lot better. Finally to-hit is one of the easiest things to raise, so do some tweaking and you can hit quite often with a Flurry + TWF. I know it is not the worlds best, but I have personally used the combo to great effect.

Coidzor
2009-12-22, 11:54 PM
Have you checked to see if they're using weighted dice?

PinkysBrain
2009-12-23, 12:09 AM
Its specificly states that flurrying with a quarterstaff gets you an extra attack with each end
No it doesn't.

Optimystik
2009-12-23, 12:11 AM
Have you checked to see if they're using weighted dice?

Or those funny ones with two 20s instead of a 20 and a 2.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-23, 12:30 AM
The problem with the handful of shuriken is that they do no damage by themselves. If you have no extra damage output modifiers, then there is no point to tossing a dozen shuriken for a dozen damage when the barbarian was doing 100+ damage six levels ago...

Beelzebub1111
2009-12-23, 12:58 AM
Have you checked to see if they're using weighted dice?
Yes, and I just don't understand it. I checked the weight, I checked the edges, I bought him new dice! Every die this man touches won't roll below a 15.

Eldariel
2009-12-23, 01:00 AM
Yes, and I just don't understand it. I checked the weight, I checked the edges, I bought him new dice! Every die this man touches won't roll below a 15.

Maybe it's the rolling technique? I can roll pretty much only one small subset of numbers if I want to and I haven't really put effort into learning the art. There's a reason those "dice"-players can make money.

mabriss lethe
2009-12-23, 02:05 AM
well. I *did* find a way to make flurry +twf useful, it just requires being any sort of class/critter that gains an energy drain attack.

Pick up improved energy drain after that. Start feeding on any and everything you can. Foes, livestock, villagers (see also, livestock) a helpful caster with the summon elemental reserve feat becomes your all you can eat buffet.

Admittedly, this is far from what was intended, and is borderline rules abuse (the only mitigating factor is that most of the means to acquire an energy drain attack leave a character so BAB starved from LA and racial HD that this is the only way to make up for it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-23, 02:07 AM
well. I *did* find a way to make flurry +twf useful, it just requires being any sort of class/critter that gains an energy drain attack.

Pick up improved energy drain after that. Start feeding on any and everything you can. Foes, livestock, villagers (see also, livestock) a helpful caster with the summon elemental reserve feat becomes your all you can eat buffet.

Admittedly, this is far from what was intended, and is borderline rules abuse (the only mitigating factor is that most of the means to acquire an energy drain attack leave a character so BAB starved from LA and racial HD that this is the only way to make up for it.Most of the energy drain attacks are standard actions or only apply to a certain attack. The only one that isn't, IIRC, is the Soul Drinker's.

mabriss lethe
2009-12-23, 02:22 AM
Most of the energy drain attacks are standard actions or only apply to a certain attack. The only one that isn't, IIRC, is the Soul Drinker's.

Not the point of the exercise. The point is that with the Improved Energy Drain feat, you gain a bonus on rolls to hit, saves, skill and ability checks in addition to the 5 temp hp. there's no cap on it. You gorge yourself using your energy drain attack out of combat, the buff from it lasts an hour, so when you enter combat, your attack bonus is through the roof, you're as safe from spellcasters as you can really ever hope to be, can take an enormous pounding and you're probably going first in initiative anyway since initiative is a dexterity check. At that point, you can more than make up for the penalties for flurrying with twf.

Also: (some examples here)
-Vampire- a vampire's energy drain attack works with any natural weapon it can use.

-Necrotic Focus weapon- allows a creature with energy drain to apply it to a successful attack made with the weapon.

Eloel
2009-12-23, 02:49 AM
Or on top of that build, add Master Thrower, for Palm Throw, and the thing that lets you do throws as touch attacks, and the one that lets you hit flatfooted.

Sure, you have a hefty penalty, but you hit flatfooted touch AC. Pretty much 15, maximum.

Now, add Flame Arrow (or smt like that) to a bunch of shurikens, and unload them all at round1...

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-23, 02:52 AM
Stacking on additional damage also works. Comboing with Master Thrower for Sneaky Shot to make all your attacks force your opponent to be flat-footed plus a bunch of precision-based damage applied can make some reasonable damage output. Weak Spot is the capstone, of course, and makes landing shots even easier.

So with a dozen attacks, at +4d6 +(character level) Sneak Attacks... that's pretty decent damage output.

Of course, to max out the damage output, you're gonna need a one-level dip in a bunch of classes for the sneak attack dice, plus eventually Swordsage for Assassin's Stance (which can also net you Shadow Blade for Dex to damage), plus all five levels of Master thrower. Going four levels of Bloodstorm Blade plus a pair of Sai may be necessary in order to get Shadow Blade damage, so it may not be worth it unless you've played with boosting it a bunch.

Had a character named Gat Ling I made once who did this.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-23, 04:29 AM
...Didn't we have this thread like a week ago?

ericgrau
2009-12-23, 09:21 AM
FWIW the FAQ says flurry, TWF and rapid shot may all be combined at once. And there is no reason they couldn't be. So a level 5 hasted monk can make 5 shuriken attacks or a mix of attacks involving all monk weapons or unarmed strikes, at least 1 off hand weapon attack and 2 thrown weapon attacks... all effectively at a base attack bonus of -1.

Kaiyanwang
2009-12-23, 09:30 AM
FWIW the FAQ says flurry, TWF and rapid shot may all be combined at once. And there is no reason they couldn't be. So a level 5 hasted monk can make 5 shuriken attacks or a mix of attacks involving all monk weapons or unarmed strikes, at least 1 off hand weapon attack and 2 thrown weapon attacks... all effectively at a base attack bonus of -1.

This. - I posted that FAQ answer, IIRC, and I guess I'm not the first. It's one of our endless monk threads.

Indon
2009-12-23, 11:08 AM
Its specificly states that flurrying with a quarterstaff gets you an extra attack with each end

Not quite. It says (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm):


In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.

In fact, a TWF'ing Monk would never need to use the main part of their weapon - they could make all their Flurry attacks as unarmed strikes then all their TWF off-hand attacks as Quarterstaff attacks (and possibly also unarmed strikes, not sure there).

ericgrau
2009-12-23, 11:16 AM
...Which wouldn't hit the broad side of a dead horse. Melee-users can't have nice things, but Monk can't even have okay things. :smallyuk:

I didn't really address this in my last post. In the -6/-6/-6/-6 example, he's not including ability score bonus to hit. Don't forget his example was level 1. Only one of those attacks have to land to break even. Maybe 2 every once in a while to counteract the lower damage. And it's situational: you can single attack high AC opponents and flurry low AC ones for crazy damage. Not to mention that at higher levels power attack has the exact same problem, yet that doesn't keep people from using it and/or cheesing away the to-hit problem.

Eldariel
2009-12-23, 11:20 AM
You really need almost two hits to match up to your average two-hander (provided he isn't going for other advantages such as reach); 2d6+1*Str at 19-20/x2 is pretty much equivalent to 1d6+Str at 20/x2 twice.

Though -6/-6/-6/-6 was with Shurikens and therefore needs a lot more hits (thanks to the incredible 1d2 damage die).

ericgrau
2009-12-23, 11:27 AM
1d2+strength. 3 hits at most. At higher levels with flame arrow, +1d6 ammo enchantments, and higher strength, it's much less. At lower levels you might be better off with 3 attacks and throwing 1d4 sais, and/or doing something else until you find a low AC low level caster or some such to perforate.

At much higher levels you can get a fairly decent attack bonus. Again, it's situational due to AC, but it's not like power attack (also situational due to AC) doesn't face the exact same problem.

Eldariel
2009-12-23, 11:39 AM
1d2+strength. 3 hits at most. At higher levels with flame arrow, +1d6 ammo enchantments, and higher strength, it's much less. At lower levels you might be better off with 3 attacks and throwing 1d4 sais, and/or doing something else until you find a low AC low level caster or some such to perforate.

At much higher levels you can get a fairly decent attack bonus. Again, it's situational due to AC, but it's not like power attack (also situational due to AC) doesn't face the exact same problem.

In this case though, you're talking -6 to all attacks. That's just horrible. And of course this was a level 1 discussion; otherwise BAB, Flurry Improvements and such would factor in and things get much better. Still not good, but slightly better.

Medium BAB puts a world of hurt into an attack penalty ridden build though. It's definitely doable around level 12 with sufficient To Hit optimization, but not much before that (and even then, it loses out in damage to warriors, especially since they now have iteratives meaning your individual weaker attacks don't really factor in as much).


Also, it's worth noting that thrown weapons use Dex for To Hit and Str for Damage probably further cutting into one or the other.

ericgrau
2009-12-23, 11:43 AM
Medium BAB does not further increase the above penalty even in the slightest until level 13. The monk gets a -2 to flurry at level 1, a -0 at higher levels, and that plus medium BAB exactly matches lower levels. Just look at the "flurry of blows attack bonus" column. It progresses at the same rate as full BAB.

So we're talking a flat penalty up until the level when thrown weapons start to suck anyway. Then it's probably a good time to give up, go full BAB and be a lousy thrower anyway, PrC into master thrower, or etc.

Eldariel
2009-12-23, 11:46 AM
Medium BAB does not further increase the above penalty even in the slightest until level 13. The monk gets a -2 to flurry at level 1, a -0 at higher levels, and that plus medium BAB exactly matches lower levels. Just look at the "flurry of blows attack bonus" column. It progresses at the same rate as full BAB.

So we're talking a flat penalty up until the level when thrown weapons start to suck anyway.

Aye, but you're dealing with the 0 BAB on level 1. Also, while Flurry improvements compensate for the BAB losses, it's worth noting that this effectively means you're never rid of the Flurry penalty (even when not Flurrying).

Gamerlord
2009-12-23, 11:48 AM
The attacks and attack bonus penalties stack ...

So a first level monk with TWF and using flurry would attack at -4/-4/-4 (assuming a light off hand weapon or equivalent).

A first level monk with TWF and rapidshot (requires flaws) using flurry throwing shurikens would attack at -6/-6/-6/-6.

His worst foe at lvl one: dire bat, how the hell did those thing get so high an AC?
OK it is CR 2 but still!

Indon
2009-12-23, 11:49 AM
Medium BAB puts a world of hurt into an attack penalty ridden build though. It's definitely doable around level 12 with sufficient To Hit optimization, but not much before that (and even then, it loses out in damage to warriors, especially since they now have iteratives meaning your individual weaker attacks don't really factor in as much).
Well, we know that poly-attack builds don't generally specialize in damage, but are stronger with secondary, per-attack effects such as ability damage.

So there's that.

ericgrau
2009-12-23, 11:52 AM
The 0 BAB at level 1 means the effective flat penalty is actually -7. Still not that extreme for 3 extra attacks. When not flurrying, you're better off not throwing either, and that's a whole other topic that appears twice a week in 50 page threads.

Back on topic (away from rapid shot), low AB TWF attacks are also great for extra trip attempts. The monk can do so with a kama or two. Off topic again, other classes can TWF + rapid shot bolas.

Grommen
2009-12-23, 12:09 PM
Yes, and I just don't understand it. I checked the weight, I checked the edges, I bought him new dice! Every die this man touches won't roll below a 15.

I have a friend that bought new dice a few months ago. Apparently dice are union and refuse to work without a concession to other dice. His 20's will not roll over a "4".

Got on the computer the other night with a differant friend and we were play testing some things I wrote. Once again the dice roller would not roll ove a 4 for us to attack. I think were doomed!

Their was an intresting video from one of the origonal dice makers. He stated that due to the modern dice makeing practices (cause we have to make them all pretty and stuff) that d20's are essescianly not round anymore and most dice are messed up to the point that they don't roll true anymore. He even stacked a bunch of D20's so that the "1" axis touched the "20" axis, then stacked the same type of dice on a different axis and with the same amount of dice in the stack the total height was off by over an inch!

Long story short. All dice are not created equal. People that have "Lucky" dice might just :)

Problem made worse because 3ed all the d20 rolls go up. In older editions you needed to roll low on some things, and high on others. So you might hit all the time, but make a save vs Spell? NEVER!

As far as using Flurry of Blows with Two Weapon Fighting. I'm sure you can but what the hell are you ever going to hit? Flurry of Blows is also a class feacher that includes attacking with every available thing you can, so I would judge that you should not use the two together. I do not think that the rules will support me on this. Making sense and 3ed, not all that common.

Signmaker
2009-12-23, 12:19 PM
The 0 BAB at level 1 means the effective flat penalty is actually -7. Still not that extreme for 3 extra attacks. When not flurrying, you're better off not throwing either, and that's a whole other topic that appears twice a week in 50 page threads.

Back on topic (away from rapid shot), low AB TWF attacks are also great for extra trip attempts. The monk can do so with a kama or two. Off topic again, other classes can TWF + rapid shot bolas.

That and general cleanup, as well. Fireball didn't finish off the horde? Monk can has playtime naow?

Simply spoken, TWF+Flurry is a bad idea unless you have plans that are thought out well.Those plans typically don't involve high damage output, unless you're blessed enough to have a party bard who optimizes IC (or DFI). So, do something different. Trip, Disarm, or huck around tanglefoot bags at brutes until you can safely wail away at em. That's really all I can say on the matter, because I'm usually dipping in to monk and then leaving well before slow fall. It's just not all that economical to keep going in the class.

Coidzor
2009-12-23, 02:27 PM
...We're now imagining someone quick-drawing bolas and hucking them around the battlefield simultaneously before finishing off with a net...

Now this is definitely amusing, but would it be worth the trouble...