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View Full Version : Sam Spade/Phillip Marlowe: Alignment



Talbot
2009-12-23, 01:51 AM
Sam Spade (of the Maltese Falcon) and Phillip Marlowe (of the Big Sleep, among others) are two of the most famous/awesome figures in detective fiction, as well as the primary influences for my next PC. But I'm having a hard time figuring out what I think their alignments are.
Note: I'm going primarily off the movie versions here, because they're better known, and also because although I've read both the Maltese Falcon and the Big Sleep, I've not all the other appearances of Spade and Marlowe. More specifically, I'm going off the Bogart movie versions, because they're significantly better than the remakes I've seen.

Of course, they aren't exactly the same character, and a case could be made that their alignments are different (my current leaning, in fact, is that Spade would be Lawful Neutral while Marlowe would be Neutral Good), but I was curious what the playground thought. Every time I thought I had it figured out (and I've flip-flopped on both several times), I changed my mind.

Here's what I've got so far:

Lawful Good: Marlowe certainly doesn't fit here (he's not remotely lawful), but Spade might. He doesn't have much/any respect for the actual law, but he has a fairly strict set of personal morals ("When your partner gets killed, you're supposed to do something about it. Doesn't matter what you thought of him.").

Neutral Good: Both could fit here, although neutral good is conventionally treated (at least by the DMs I've played with) as the "friendly" and/or "naive" and/or "optimistic" alignment, and neither character is well described by any of those terms.

Chaotic Good: Probably a good fit for either, but both have at least a grudging respect for authority and some basic framework of principles and protocols that govern their behavior (see Marlowe refusing to fraternize with Carmen Sternwood until his case for her father was wrapped up, for example).

Lawful Neutral: Again, you probably can't put Marlowe here, but a case can be made for Spade, a principled guy who (arguably) acts chiefly out of self-interest.

True Neutral: You could make a case for either here, as neither is exactly crusading for justice, killing orphans, enforcing government mandates, or undermining the establishment. I think Marlowe, at least, probably leans a bit too far on the "good" axis, though.

Chaotic Neutral: Honestly, they both seem a bit too consistent/stable for this one. They're unpredictable, sure, but it's a practiced and purposeful unpredictability.

Lawful Evil: You could maybe make a case for Spade here, but it would be a very tough sell.

Neutral Evil: No chance.

Chaotic Evil: No chance.


What does the Playground think?

hamishspence
2009-12-23, 07:09 AM
Might depend on how strong the tendencies are.

In Complete Scoundrel, it is possible to be a "scoundrelly" Lawful Good- **** Tracy and Indiana Jones are among the examples given.

So, even if the person bends Lawfulness a little (a bit like Roy Greenhilt in that respect) as long as they have some of it, they may qualify as Lawful Good.

In the same way, Neutral Good may be a Knight in Sour Armor type- pessimistic and even ruthless, but as long as they are Good enough, they can still qualify.

bosssmiley
2009-12-23, 09:11 AM
Neutral. The whole point of noir is shades of grey.

(Rick in Casablanca is Chaotic Good despite himself)

Britter
2009-12-23, 11:42 AM
I think Spade is a very neutral character. The movie is a little kinder to him, but in the book he comes of as more than a little underhanded. He plays both sides against each other, uses a lawyer to manipulate the legal system and keep himself safe from the police, has an affair with his partners wife, then ignores her in favor of the girl. He sends the girl to prison, even though he could have saved her. I suspect he might also have been sleeping with his secretary, based on some of their interactions. He only avenges his partner because that is what you are supposed to do when someone kills him, not out of a deep sense of respect. Heck, he hated Miles. To me he is just plain neutral.

I think Marlowe is actually the more moral man of the two. He was described by Chandler as the kind of guy who might seduce a duchess but would never damage the virtue of a virgin, or something to that effect. He is viewed more as the dirty angel and less the pragmatist (Spade is pragmatic to a fault). Marlowe goes out of his way to get to the bottom of a case even if he knows that there won't be any arrests, he just needs to know so that he can tell the client the truth. I would say that Marlowe is Chaotic Good, or maybe even Lawful Good. To support my position, some quotes.

Dashiell Hammett may have shown how mean those streets could be, but Raymond Chandler imagined a man who could go down those streets who was not himself mean."
(Kevin Burton Smith)


Down these mean streets a man must go who is not himself mean, who is neither tarnished nor afraid. The detective must be a complete man and a common man and yet an unusual man. He must be, to use a rather weathered phrase, a man of honor. He talks as the man of his age talks, that is, with rude wit, a lively sense of the grotesque, a disgust for sham, and a contempt for pettiness.
--Raymond Chandler

Now, mind you, Marlowe is no paladin. He is a womanizer and a man willing to use deceit to get to the bottom of things. He might respect the law but he often has little respect for lawmen. He is snide and often insulting in coversation. But at his core he is a man of honor. He doesn't sleep around, he never betrays a trust even at great personal cost to himself. He always gets up and does the job, even when it is hard to do.

"I needed a drink, I needed a lot of life insurance, I needed a vacation, I needed a home in the country. What I had was a coat, a hat and a gun."
--Marlowe, from Farewell, My Lovely

hamishspence
2009-12-23, 12:26 PM
Sounds a lot like a Knight in Sour Armor- a bit like Sam Vimes in that respect.

Marlowe fits in well with the "scoundrelly Lawful Good" archetype.

Britter
2009-12-23, 12:32 PM
Yeah hamishspence, I have always considered Marlowe to be a "gritty Lawful Good" kind of character. I think that is sort of how Chandler saw the character too, though obviously not in DnD alignment terms :)

hamishspence
2009-12-23, 12:35 PM
Given that **** Tracy (another fictional detective from a similar setting) was listed as LG, it would fit.

Hmm, I wonder if this would tend to be common to "scoundrelly but good" cop types- Detective Inspector Frost, for example?

Britter
2009-12-23, 12:45 PM
I am not familiar with that particular character, but I have a theory that Spade and Marlowe are pretty much the archetypes for two general flavors of detective.

Spade is the noir detective that is just as gray as the world around him. If good comes from his actions, it is simply a by-product, not the primary intent. He does have a code, but it is a code that allows him to get by in the world. I view him as sort of the original anti-hero.

Marlowe is the archetype for the sort of honorable, good, flawed detective. He sticks out for me in noir fiction because he is a good man in a world that doesn't reward goodness. He struggles constantly with that, and that makes him much more human. Spencer and Jesse Stone, from the books by Robert Parker, also fall into this general realm for me.

I really like depicitons of lawful, honorable, good types that are able to stick to their challenging moral codes even in the face of an unforgiving and uncaring world. Marlowe may be my favorite literary figure.

I think that the third vital archetype is the evil cop, much like Vic Mackey from the Shield.

hamishspence
2009-12-23, 12:50 PM
DI Frost is the main character of a series of books, and later, a TV series, starring David Jason. It's quite popular in Britain.

I haven't seen Life on Mars yet (time-travel, set in 70s) but the lead cop on that, (Hunt) from what I've heard, is very much a man of his time- not as nasty as Vic Mackey, but definitely a pretty mean cop. More Neutral than Good.

Britter
2009-12-23, 12:51 PM
Consider DI Frost on the reading list. Thank you, it sounds like it might be right up my alley.

hamishspence
2009-12-23, 01:01 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DI_Frost

The author's name is R. D. Wingfield.

The TV series isn't exactly the same, but its close enough- its not one of those cases where the series is dramatically different.

Does Harry Callahan from the Dirty Harry series qualify as the "Good cop with a dark side" rather than the Neutral cop?

Britter
2009-12-23, 01:58 PM
I think he is a good cop with a dark side, but he is also a very Choatic character. CG, maybe CN with good traits.

hamishspence
2009-12-23, 02:02 PM
CN with good tendencies, I'd say, given that torturing prisoners is a little out of the ordinary for a Good character- depending on the sourcebook.

Still, even in core D&D (1978) it was the example given for "behaviour that doen't fit with a Good alignment."

On chaos vs law- Harry is a bit too far along the Chaotic axis, at least compared to Marlowe, to be Lawful.

Britter
2009-12-23, 02:07 PM
I concur, CN with good tendancies.

Definitely NOT Lawful, despite being a lawman.

Riggs and Murtaugh from the Lethal Weapon series, and John McClane from Die Hard, would be good examples of CG cops, in my opinion.

hamishspence
2009-12-23, 02:09 PM
Didn't one of the two in the Lethal Weapon movies start out as a very by-the-book cop, before the other's Chaotic tendencies began to rub off on him?

Same Vimes in the Discworld novels, while more flexible than Carrot, is still pretty Lawful.

Britter
2009-12-23, 02:20 PM
Yes, the Lethal Weapon guys started as extremes (Riggs was probably CN in the first movie due to his desire to die, and Murtaugh was probably NG) but by the fourth I think they were both CG.

Vimes is definitely a Lawful type, but I think he maintains that through sheer force of will. He is a pretty conflicted guy. I might chalk him up as LN with Good tendencies.

hamishspence
2009-12-23, 02:27 PM
There are motivational posters picturing him as "Lawful good done right"

I'd say, given his sheer compassion (even before he was married, a lot of his pay went to the widows and orphans of cops who died on duty) he's over the LN/LG border into LG (but with neutral tendencies)

He may need to restrain himself at times, but he is able to do it.

Britter
2009-12-23, 02:36 PM
Valid interpretation, for sure.

I have been trying to come up with a good Lawful Evil cop who is not the antagonist of a story, and I just can't come up with a good one. Maybe Dexter. He is a sociopath and a serial murderer, but he has a rigorous code that prevents him from killing innocents, and he uses his specialized forensics knowledge to help catch criminals. Because of the fact that he is a true sociopath, I think he falls squarely on the LE side of the fence, maybe LN with strong evil tendencies. The "good" acts he performs are all a calculated part of his cover.

hamishspence
2009-12-23, 02:43 PM
I'd say LE.

Evil guys can be compassionate towards others up to a point (Savage Species) and in some cases its their methods more than their views, that make them evil.

"for the greater good" so to speak- but when they become sufficiently ruthless, they are Evil rather than Neutral.

Dexter is a good example of an especially extreme vigilante- like The Punisher but more so.

LN would be more Judge Dredd.

While its up to the DM, I'd say most DMs who use the various alignment supplements, would class Dexter as fitting the "routine use of evil methods makes for Evil alignment" general rule.

While not a cop in the strictest sense, Firefly's The Operative, may qualify- agent of the government, does acts of great evil- but believes that it's necessary to make a better world.

Britter
2009-12-23, 03:12 PM
Oh, good call re: the Operative. He is an interesting study because of his initial belief he is doing good, combined with his self-awareness that he is a monster. He knows what he is doing has no place in the ideal world he hopes to create. It is almost too complicated for the DnD alignment system.

I would definitely put Dexter as a LE. The only thing preventing him from being a true villain is the Code of Harry. Everything about Dexter is a calculated choice to allow him to continue killing, and if not for the code he would be a horrific monster.

Judge Dred is a great example of LN.


What about a character like Jim Gordon? I like him best when he is writen as another good example of a dirty angel style LG cop. The treatment he got in Miller's Year One is one of my favorite versions of the character.

Talbot
2009-12-23, 07:26 PM
Wouldn't Marlowe's willingness to bend/break the rules (letting Carmen Sternwood off the hook, for instance), coupled with his womanizing, make him more NG than LG? Would Spade's strict code of conduct push him from TN to LN?

Catch
2009-12-23, 07:37 PM
Wouldn't Marlowe's willingness to bend/break the rules (letting Carmen Sternwood off the hook, for instance), coupled with his womanizing, make him more NG than LG? Would Spade's strict code of conduct push him from TN to LN?

No for both.

Marlowe womanizes, but he's not a womanizer. Spade follows a strict code in specific instances, and does what benefits him the rest of the time. Both men have tendencies toward another alignment (given that this is all arbitrary), but neither are defined by those inclinations. Spade is still out for himself in the end, and Marlowe's willing to die for what he believes is right.

Interesting discussion, though. Considering their reputation for moral ambiguity, noir films have a notably strong protagonist code (though technically noir is a style, not a genre.)

Talbot
2009-12-23, 07:48 PM
I suppose I'm just having a hard time grasping what people think makes Marlowe Lawful Good, rather than Neutral or Chaotic Good.

Catch
2009-12-23, 08:48 PM
Because his protagonist code is so specific. Good characters generally know and care about what's right, but neutral characters are indifferent to the means and chaotic ones care mainly about the ends. A lawful character is bound by his morality, because it is both strict and explicit. Marlowe would cuckold a duke, but wouldn't dare trifle with a virgin. That's contingent, specific morality, which is more lawful, rather than a general moral of "don't touch what isn't yours."

hamishspence
2009-12-24, 04:39 AM
Oh, good call re: the Operative. He is an interesting study because of his initial belief he is doing good, combined with his self-awareness that he is a monster. He knows what he is doing has no place in the ideal world he hopes to create. It is almost too complicated for the DnD alignment system.

Too complicated for PHB, maybe, but more expanded sources, especially Champions of Ruin, discuss the issue of "atrocities for the greater good" and make it clear that this sort of character is still evil- just much more altruistic than your basic selfish PHB evil.

What makes the Operative unusual is that he actually sees his activities as "evil but necessary"

Whereas most "Well Intentioned Extremists" tend to see their actions as "necessary, therefore not evil"

Talbot
2009-12-24, 07:53 PM
Because his protagonist code is so specific. Good characters generally know and care about what's right, but neutral characters are indifferent to the means and chaotic ones care mainly about the ends. A lawful character is bound by his morality, because it is both strict and explicit. Marlowe would cuckold a duke, but wouldn't dare trifle with a virgin. That's contingent, specific morality, which is more lawful, rather than a general moral of "don't touch what isn't yours."

I guess we just disagree on the level of specificity. To me, Marlowe's code seems to be roughly "do what's right most of the time". In the books, he's *slightly* more lawful, I suppose, but in the film at least, he's perfectly willing to bend/break his own rules when it suits him. He's not random enough to be chaotic, but I don't really think he's orderly/consistent enough to be lawful.

Of course, Neutral good is one of those fun alignments that nobody can actually agree on a definition for anyways, so it may just be a question of who's definition of "lawful" and "neutral" you're playing under.

Harperfan7
2009-12-24, 11:56 PM
I think Sam is neutral. He's not good, obviously, and being loyal to a friend is easily inside the boundaries of neutral.