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View Full Version : 3.5 class you most want to see revised in 4e?



Gamerlord
2009-12-23, 10:29 AM
What class from 3.5 do you want to see revised in 4e that hasn't been already?

I would like the spellthief to be revised, but its key mechanic would be very hard to fit into the game, and more than likely prone to abuse. So I guess I would like to see the hexblade revised, seeing as how they have that shadow power source. Samurai would be nice, but they got rid of the Ki power source and it is simple enough to make a fighter that fits the fluff.

Sir Homeslice
2009-12-23, 11:04 AM
Truenamer. Also Factotum.

The Rose Dragon
2009-12-23, 11:08 AM
Swordsage.

Yay for Swordsage.

Ryumaru
2009-12-23, 11:11 AM
Truenamer. Also Factotum.

Isn't Bard basically Factotum? Spend a bunch of feats on multiclass, tada. Bits and pieces from multiple classes.


Samurai would be nice, but they got rid of the Ki power source and it is simple enough to make a fighter that fits the fluff.

Samurai work perfect as martial; besides, all that you need to do is wear a shortsword and bastard sword, carry a bow and spear, and wear some fluffed armour (laminate plate rather than full-plate) and tada. Godplate sounds particularly samurai, to me.

Optimystik
2009-12-23, 11:15 AM
Binder! Post-spellplague, Mystra could be a vestige!

Kurald Galain
2009-12-23, 11:16 AM
I think a spellthief should be pretty easy considering everything works on the power system, actually.

Steal power, encounter
Standard action, range melee
Attack: cha vs will
Hit: 2d6 psychic damage. Randomly select an unexpended encounter attack power possessed by the target, if any. This power is considered expended. Once before the end of the encounter, you may use this power as a standard action; instead of its to-hit modifier, use your own (i.e. half your level, plus implement bonus, plus your charisma modifier)

Steal resistance, daily
Standard action, range 5
Attack: cha vs fort
Hit: 2d10 psychic damage, and the target loses all of its resistances (save ends) and you gain those resistances until the end of the encounter.
Miss: The target loses all of its resistances until the end of your next turn, and you gain those resistances until the end of your next turn.

See? Easy as pi.


I would like to see a true illusionist (as in, someone that can cast illusions regularly, not have psychical attacks with fluff of "it's an illusion, honestly"), as well as a true necromancer (again, involving actual necromancy, not just dealing a bunch of necrotic damage).

Gamerlord
2009-12-23, 11:23 AM
A dread necromancer could function as a shadow controller,summoning zombies and all that jazz to slow down enemies.

Blackfang108
2009-12-23, 11:31 AM
Soulknife, as an actually psionic class, either on its own, or as a build for the Psionic Defender/striker.

Faleldir
2009-12-23, 11:45 AM
I would say Illusionist as well. You never roll for HP damage, but you attack every enemy who can see your spell. It is pure Controller.

Draz74
2009-12-23, 11:52 AM
Truenamer! +1


Isn't Bard basically Factotum? Spend a bunch of feats on multiclass, tada. Bits and pieces from multiple classes.

That, plus all the bonuses to untrained skill checks and such. Yeah, if Bard had a feat to make all its attacks INT-based instead of CHA-based, it would be a Factotum.

UserClone
2009-12-23, 12:14 PM
I think a spellthief should be pretty easy considering everything works on the power system, actually.

Steal power, encounter
Standard action, range melee
Attack: cha vs will
Hit: 2d6 psychic damage. Randomly select an unexpended encounter attack power possessed by the target, if any. This power is considered expended. Once before the end of the encounter, you may use this power as a standard action; instead of its to-hit modifier, use your own (i.e. half your level, plus implement bonus, plus your charisma modifier)

Steal resistance, daily
Standard action, range 5
Attack: cha vs fort
Hit: 2d10 psychic damage, and the target loses all of its resistances (save ends) and you gain those resistances until the end of the encounter.
Miss: The target loses all of its resistances until the end of your next turn, and you gain those resistances until the end of your next turn.

See? Easy as pi.


I would like to see a true illusionist (as in, someone that can cast illusions regularly, not have psychical attacks with fluff of "it's an illusion, honestly"), as well as a true necromancer (again, involving actual necromancy, not just dealing a bunch of necrotic damage).

This is...actually really, really good. Nice job.

NEO|Phyte
2009-12-23, 12:20 PM
Truenamer.
The truenamer sort of exists as one of the dragonmarked PPs in Eberron, IIRC.

Indon
2009-12-23, 12:27 PM
Steal power, encounter
Standard action, range melee
Attack: cha vs will
Hit: 2d6 psychic damage. Randomly select an unexpended encounter attack power possessed by the target, if any. This power is considered expended. Once before the end of the encounter, you may use this power as a standard action; instead of its to-hit modifier, use your own (i.e. half your level, plus implement bonus, plus your charisma modifier)
The fact that most creatures with an encounter power only have one encounter power would, to me, indicate that this power should be a Daily.

I'd like to see Incarnum, I think. I rather like Incarnum. The Soulborn would be the Defender(/Leader), the Incarnate would be the Leader, the Totemist would be the Striker(/Leader), and they could make up another class to be the Incarnum Controller.

The Incarnum mechanic could be like the Psion's mechanic, only with more of an emphasis on leadery stuff and stance-like abilities that last until the end of the combat.

Inyssius Tor
2009-12-23, 12:34 PM
The truenamer sort of exists as one of the dragonmarked PPs in Eberron, IIRC.

The maledictory invoker isn't bad for it either, what with its emphasis on reshaping the universe via supernal words of power.


Binder! Post-spellplague, Mystra could be a vestige!

You've seen the vestige-pact warlock, right? In Arcane Power? It's... well, it's the binder.

FoE
2009-12-23, 12:39 PM
They revised the paladin already, thank the gods.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-23, 12:39 PM
The fact that most creatures with an encounter power only have one encounter power would, to me, indicate that this power should be a Daily.
For another class, yes. For a class that is based on the ability to take power from monsters (i.e. the spellthief) it should be an encounter ability. This should be a class feature so that it cannot be obtained through multiclassing. Note that there's already a limit here: if you use it on the wrong monster, this power is still expended but doesn't do anything.

Artanis
2009-12-23, 01:49 PM
I would like to see the Soulknife revised. Unfortunately, I have no idea how they would do it without stepping on the Monk's toes, considering that the Monk already has the enchanting yourself thing going on. Maybe some sort of summoned weapon-esque deal?


For another class, yes. For a class that is based on the ability to take power from monsters (i.e. the spellthief) it should be an encounter ability. This should be a class feature so that it cannot be obtained through multiclassing. Note that there's already a limit here: if you use it on the wrong monster, this power is still expended but doesn't do anything.

Making the target pseudo-expend the power is alright. Being able to use it yourself is never gonna happen. They've tried really hard to keep PCs from using monster powers, and they aren't going to let somebody just use one themselves, even as a Daily. Same goes for resistances.

I can see it being made to recharge one of the Spellthief's powers though. Something like, "Deal X damage, enemy pseudo-expends one encounter power, and you regain the use of one of your encounter powers. This power cannot be recharged this way." And the resistance one being "target loses X amount of resistance, you gain X amount of that same resistance." Or something along those lines.

Guinea Anubis
2009-12-23, 01:59 PM
A dread necromancer could function as a shadow controller,summoning zombies and all that jazz to slow down enemies.

This would be a lot of fun. They have the summoning rules in place.

Kylarra
2009-12-23, 01:59 PM
Swordmage already summons its sword though.

Optimystik
2009-12-23, 02:11 PM
You've seen the vestige-pact warlock, right? In Arcane Power? It's... well, it's the binder.

Thanks for the heads-up. I have yet to read AP; currently my only 4e books are the PHB, DMG and MM, though that may change this holiday.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming :smallredface:

hamishspence
2009-12-23, 02:14 PM
The invoker (PHB2) has a lot of truenamer about it, especially in the Divine Power variant, with the Covenant of Malediction alternate class feature.

Blas_de_Lezo
2009-12-23, 02:33 PM
OOh, I'm desperately looking for the HEXBLADE. Of course, with the option (PHB2) of the Hound of Shadows instead of a Arcane Familiar.

Anyone heard something about it?


HEXBLADE LOVE! :smallbiggrin:

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/705/hexz.jpg

hamishspence
2009-12-23, 02:52 PM
there is a "Hexer" Paragon path for the warlock.

That said, the swordmage might fit the "fighter with a little magic" trope better.

Maybe a swordmage/warlock multiclass?

Kurald Galain
2009-12-23, 03:00 PM
Making the target pseudo-expend the power is alright. Being able to use it yourself is never gonna happen. They've tried really hard to keep PCs from using monster powers,
I'm not really convinced about that. Overall, PC powers seem to be stronger than monster powers. A balance issue in 3E is the ability to obtain all statistics of any monster more-or-less permanently; this is a far cry from the ability to obtain one randomly picked ability from a monster you're fighting at the moment to be used once. It's not dissimilar from simply dominating the creature for a turn, which psions are capable of doing very well.

But okay,

Energy absorption, wizard encounter 7
Standard action, range 10, target one creature
Attack: int vs will
Hit: 1d8+int damage. Choose a damage type that the target is capable of doing and/or resisting. Until the end of your next turn, the enemy's resistance to that type is reduced by 5, all damage of that type it deals is reduced by 5, and all your at will attacks deal an additional 5 damage of that type.


Same goes for resistances.
I believe there's several ways to gain Resist All already, and there are some powers that make enemies lose resistances. I'm not sure this is a big issue; at heroic levels, there's no need to restrict the resistance loss to 5 points, because pretty much everything at heroic won't have higher resistances anyway. On the other side, at epic this is pretty darn powerful, but to use it you forego taking an epic-tier daily instead: your character only gets three daily powers, ever.


I can see it being made to recharge one of the Spellthief's powers though.
Yes. But that would be a nice side-power for a warlock or wizard, but nothing for a full spellthief class.

Entropic Spiral, warlock daily utility 10
Minor action, range 5, target one creature
Attack: Con vs will
Hit: The target loses a randomly chosen encounter power. You recharge a warlock encounter power, or a warlock paragon path encounter power.

Gralamin
2009-12-23, 03:16 PM
Yes. But that would be a nice side-power for a warlock or wizard, but nothing for a full spellthief class.

The problem with that is how it ends up working. Take an Adult Red Dragon for example. Your Spellthief ability could steal the Bloodied Breath ability, which does what, exactly, for them? If you include Recharge powers, you could also steal its breath weapon, which seems really odd to be able to steal.

Not only that, all of the monsters powers are worded in a way that suggests they always gain any benefit from them. If you stole Dark Blessing from a Deathpriest of Orcus, for example, the effect line would still be "The deathpriest and all allies in the burst gain a +2 power bonus to AC until the end of the encounter."

Kurald Galain
2009-12-23, 03:23 PM
The problem with that is how it ends up working. Take an Adult Red Dragon for example. Your Spellthief ability could steal the Bloodied Breath ability,
Note that my spellthief explicitly says "attack power", which would rule out both bloodied breath and dark blessing.

gorfnab
2009-12-23, 03:24 PM
Well since there is the shadow power source a Shadowcaster as a shadow controller might be interesting in 4e.

Optimystik
2009-12-23, 03:28 PM
And Shadowdancer/Child of Night for the striker, though those may not be heroic paths.

Gralamin
2009-12-23, 03:29 PM
Note that my spellthief explicitly says "attack power", which would rule out both bloodied breath and dark blessing.

Except it wouldn't. Dark Blessing is definitely an Attack power: I was just stating its effect line. Bloodied Breath is marked as being a close power and has the fire keyword, because powers that cause the use of other attack powers are considered attack powers.

Edit: If you want to be technical about it, Page 7 of the Monster Manual clearly defines that any power with the close symbol is an attack power.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-23, 03:45 PM
Edit: If you want to be technical about it, Page 7 of the Monster Manual clearly defines that any power with the close symbol is an attack power.
Okay, then let's reword the spellthievery to "power that requires an attack roll". Is that better?

Otherwise, I would simply state that for the spellthief to use a power that says "the red dragon recharges his dragon breath" is not a good idea (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2006/04/29/episode-689-backfire/).

Gralamin
2009-12-23, 03:48 PM
Okay, then let's reword the spellthievery to "power that requires an attack roll". Is that better?

Otherwise, I would simply state that for the spellthief to use a power that says "the red dragon recharges his dragon breath" is not a good idea (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2006/04/29/episode-689-backfire/).

It may be. I'm sure there would still be complications though.

Honestly, the best way of approaching spell thief in my opinion is one of:
- Making a complete class who picks a bunch of powers, each with associated monster keywords. When they steal a power from a monster, they can recharge a power with the associated Keywords. Or
- A few Multiclass feats to get the powers to act as a spell thief, and then do a lot of working smoothing the monster encounter powers that need attack rolls to fit.

Hal
2009-12-23, 04:13 PM
What if you just made Spellthief an arcane Paragon Path?

I'm not good with design, but here are some possible features (including those hit upon already):

-Steal monster encounter power
-Regenerate PC encounter power
-Steal/copy monster resistance(s)
-Force/prevent monster power regeneration
-Aura negation
-Action point pool (Already available to other PPs)
-Item power pool

I could see some interesting uses put to this, depending on how the features/powers were written. I'm a terrible judge of what is or isn't OP, though.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-23, 05:30 PM
What if you just made Spellthief an arcane Paragon Path?

Hm, that sounds like it could work. Let me give it a shot.

Spellthief (paragon path)
Prerequisite: arcane class.

Features:
When you take this paragon path, choose int, wis or cha. Use that attribute modifier for the powers of this paragon path.

11.Nullifying action. When you spend an action point to make an attack, that attack ignores the resistance of its targets.

11.Leech resistance. While you are within three squares of an enemy with resistance to a damage type, you have resistance to that same damage type equal to half that amount.

11.Absorb energy (encounter power). Immediate interrupt. Trigger: you are hit by an area or close attack. Effect: you take half damage from the attack. On your next turn, you may make the following attack as a standard action. Range, area of effect, defense, and damage type are the same as the triggering attack. Target: each enemy in burst. Attack: int, wis or cha vs the defense. Hit: 2d10 + int, wis or cha mod damage.

12.Absorb ability (encounter power). Immediate interrupt. Trigger: an enemy within five squares becomes invisible, insubstantial, or phasing. Effect: the enemy does not gain that condition; instead, you gain that condition until the end of your next turn.

16.Draining aura. While you are bloodied, enemies within five squares of you must roll 1d8 to recharge their powers, instead of 1d6. On a 7 or 8, that power does not recharge this round.

20.Steal power (daily power) Arcane, implement. Standard action, one target, range 5.
Attack: int, wis, or cha vs will. Hit: choose an encounter or recharge power possessed by the target. The target must use that power immediately, but you choose its targets, tracing range and line of effect from your square. You make all attack rolls for the power (based on your level, implement bonus, and int, wis or cha mod). If the power normally affects allies (or enemies) of the target, it affects your allies (or enemies) instead. The power is then expended and cannot be recharged (save ends).
Miss: choose an encounter or recharge power possessed by the target. That power is expended and cannot be recharged (save ends).

ImperiousLeader
2009-12-23, 06:55 PM
The Hexblade, as a class name, I would expect as the Shadow Defender in PH4. As an Arcane meleeist ... you've got the Swordmage and there are melee option Warlocks that can fit.

I'd like to see Incarnum get the 4e treatment.

The Soulknife is something I'd like to see, but I agree that it needs to avoid stepping on the toes of the Monk. One way is to embrace the idea of "Mind over Matter" and make it a Mental Stat primary class. I do want a Psionic Striker that uses power points.

Blas_de_Lezo
2009-12-23, 07:31 PM
The Hexblade, as a class name, I would expect as the Shadow Defender in PH4.

I was about to write the same. Here's my bet:

Shadow Defender: Hexblade
Shadow Controller: Necromancer
Shadow Leader: ?????

DabblerWizard
2009-12-23, 07:44 PM
Samurai would be nice, but they got rid of the Ki power source and it is simple enough to make a fighter that fits the fluff.

WOTC didn't get rid of Ki. They just didn't make any classes that use that power source, yet.

How do I know? - Look on page 54 of PHB 1. In the blue box at the bottom of the page where it talks about power sources, they mention power sources that weren't used in the PHB 1.

"Future power sources include elemental, ki, primal, psionic, and shadow" (Collins, Heinsoo, & Wyatt, 2008, p. 54).

I'm using APA style citation to avoid plagiarism.

Work cited in the spoiler.

Collins, A., Heinsoo, R., Wyatt, J. (2008). Dungeons and Dragons. Players Handbook: Arcane, Divine, and Martial Heroes. Renton, WA: Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

I love college education. :smallsmile:

Kylarra
2009-12-23, 07:47 PM
WOTC didn't get rid of Ki. They just didn't make any classes that use that power source, yet.

How do I know? - Look on page 54 of PHB 1. In the blue box at the bottom of the page where it talks about power sources, they mention power sources that weren't used in the PHB 1.

"Future power sources include elemental, ki, primal, psionic, and shadow" (Collins, Heinsoo, & Wyatt, 2008, p. 54).

I'm using APA style citation to avoid plagiarism.

Work cited in the spoiler.

Collins, A., Heinsoo, R., Wyatt, J. (2008). Dungeons and Dragons. Players Handbook: Arcane, Divine, and Martial Heroes. Renton, WA: Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

I love college education. :smallsmile:From the monk playtest they stated that the ki power source was being removed and that's why monks are psionic.

DabblerWizard
2009-12-23, 07:52 PM
From the monk playtest they stated that the ki power source was being removed and that's why monks are psionic.

Utters a slight whimper For shame! :smallannoyed:

Hal
2009-12-23, 07:55 PM
Spellthief (paragon path)
Prerequisite: arcane class.


That's exellent work there. Like I said, I have no eye for balance, but I'm sure that could be attractive to some people. (Edit: Although I have qualms about Nullifying Action, since it is a spin-off of a level 3 item power; some pair of gloves whose name I forget. It seems like a PP feature ought to be better.)

I just remembered that some monsters have action points. I imagine actually stealing it would be too much, but what if you could prevent them from using it (save ends)?

Faleldir
2009-12-23, 08:02 PM
Utters a slight whimper For shame! :smallannoyed:

Care to explain how Ki would be conceptually different? What is this "Japan" you speak of?

Gamerlord
2009-12-23, 08:06 PM
Utters a slight whimper For shame! :smallannoyed:

Meh, they would run out of class ideas too quickly.
Besides, you can make a samurai using a tempest fighter with ease.

Zeta Kai
2009-12-23, 08:48 PM
Truenamer. Also Factotum.

A Truenamer that is on-par with other classes? Yes, please.

And I don't know how a Factotum would work in 4E, but it'd be worth a try. Double yes.

CarpeGuitarrem
2009-12-23, 09:00 PM
Care to explain how Ki would be conceptually different? What is this "Japan" you speak of?
Psionics: Magic mind jutsu
Ki: Spiritual energy flow

Psionics: Shounen anime "monks"
Ki: Wuxia monks

Psionics: Fire! Ice! Air! I can do freaky stuff with my brainwaves!
Ki: I have the ferocity of fire, the stillness of ice, the grace of a leaf on the wind.

Psionics: My power comes from using my mind to screw around with the magic of the world
Ki: My power comes from understanding that I am one being among many, a member of a great balance

Look at their presentation of a "monk", and you can see exactly why psionics =/= ki. If you renamed "Disciplines" to "Jutsu", and added katana and shuriken to the class weapon list, the 4th Edition monk would be practically indistinguishable from a Naruto ninja. If that speaks monk to you, more power to you. It doesn't speak monk to me. Too many people equate the paranormal with the spiritual, which is what this is a case of.

Kylarra
2009-12-23, 09:03 PM
So your issue is ... fluff.

CarpeGuitarrem
2009-12-23, 09:12 PM
So your issue is ... fluff.
Just like the majority of the distinctions between power sources are also based on fluff...

Anyhow, that's another topic.

Faleldir
2009-12-23, 09:34 PM
Psionics: Magic mind jutsu
Ki: Spiritual energy flow

{scrubbed}


Psionics: Shounen anime "monks"
Ki: Wuxia monks

Just because a Barbarian's magic isn't as flashy as a Druid's doesn't mean it's a different power source.


Psionics: Fire! Ice! Air! I can do freaky stuff with my brainwaves!
Ki: I have the ferocity of fire, the stillness of ice, the grace of a leaf on the wind.

If you don't do "freaky stuff" at all, you should be Martial.


Psionics: My power comes from using my mind to screw around with the magic of the world
Ki: My power comes from understanding that I am one being among many, a member of a great balance

Psionic power comes from understanding that there is no spoon.

AshDesert
2009-12-23, 10:23 PM
Incarnum as a power source (too bad they're likely not going to get to it by the time 5e comes around:smallfrown:). MoI was one of my favorite books from all of 3.5, I would love to see how they would do it in 4e.


I was about to write the same. Here's my bet:

Shadow Defender: Hexblade
Shadow Controller: Necromancer
Shadow Leader: ?????

My guess would be Shadowcaster for the Leader, and Shadowdancer as the Striker.

shaddy_24
2009-12-24, 01:40 AM
Incarnum as a power source (too bad they're likely not going to get to it by the time 5e comes around:smallfrown:). MoI was one of my favorite books from all of 3.5, I would love to see how they would do it in 4e.

I agree with this. I hope they come out with Incarnum, but I'm not sure they will.


My guess would be Shadowcaster for the Leader, and Shadowdancer as the Striker.

They released the Shadow power striker in Dragon. It's the assassin. I don't know if they'd do another Shadow striker, but it's not too likely, they've only got one of each type for most of the power sources besides Martial.

Optimystik
2009-12-24, 09:39 AM
I have no problem with ki and psionics being merged. The whole point of ki is "uniting body and mind to unlock my true potential" - well whaddya know, that's the point of psionics too!

Besides, monks in 3.5 ended up "doing freaky stuff with their brainwaves" too. Set my hands on fire, step through shadows, stop aging etc.

Gametime
2009-12-24, 02:05 PM
A lot of people on the forums were speculating that Wizards would be unable to come up with distinct enough fluff to justify the existence of the ki power source beyond "It's what the Asian-inspired characters do!"

My guess is that Wizards thought it wouldn't be worth the possible fallout.